Talk:T'vaoan

Merging with Kig-Yar (closed)

Based on the Reclassify discussion and the distinction between the Skirmishers and the Jackals provided by Bungie, it appears that the Skirmisher is simply a different variant of the Kig-Yar species, thus treated as a race rather than a sub-species, and that the Jackal is the more common Kig-Yar race encountered throughout the Halo franchise. With that said, the Kig-Yar article should have sections dedicated to these two races which details the physical and behavioural differences, how they differ from one another in actual combat and how they were integrated into a common unit after the event of Reach. Note that the description confirms that the Skirmisher is not a rank within the Kig-Yar Rank Structure.

I am with you. If we are going to not merge this then we need to make a new page for Human male and Human FemaleGogeta21 23:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!

Support

Support - As per above.- 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 12:55, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Support - As per above. --Nerfherder1428 21:54, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Support - You're opposing arguments are, without hoping to offend you, not legitimate. They are just a subspecies or breed or race of Kig-Yar. I'm not sure if that means the Kig-Yar are both races or not. Making this a separate article is somewhat, frankly, ignorant. The term "Skirmisher" isn't the name of their role but of their race. That's like making a separate article for Caucasians or Latinos under humanity. If the Skirmishers had a special rank, (ie. "Brawler" or something) I would agree. But as it is, the Skirmishers are just a race of Kig-Yar. I don't know if this means that a "Jackal" is a different race too, but both Jackals and Skirmishers are well and perfectly Kig-Yar. (Don't believe? See "FULL NAME" of the Skirmishers here) I didn't mean to shun any of your beliefs, I apologize if I did, but all I am saying is that your arguments for opposition are not accurate. Sorry! --Fluffball Gato 23:29, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

You're hiding behind "legitimacy" against commonsense logic. The Skirmishers, although they share the same species name as Jackals, are very different in appearance, behavior, and most importantly (as this is an encyclopedia of a video game-based universe) gameplay behavior. That merits them getting their own article. I don't know why you think that a rank would deserve an article but a subspecies would not. You're drawing an imaginary line there, but in reality, a Skirmisher is not a Jackal, and should have its own page separate from the Jackal. Furthermore, since you're trying to be technical with your argument, I'll be technical right back: a race and a subspecies are NOT the same thing, as has been argued probably five times on this page. But the point is - never mind whatever vocab words you're using (race? subspecies? legitimacy and accuracy?), a Skirmisher is a different thing from a Jackal and deserves a separate page. Flayer92 03:19, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree on that. I agree with everything you say except when you say that this is an encyclopedia for the Video Game. It is not. In fact I have friends who use this Wikia and don't even play the games! Also. I have friends that are very interested in the books. And when I asked them if they are excited for Halo 3: ODST the said "they made a Halo video game?!". And as Bungie has said on their forum. "We know people who have never even heard of the books, games, and comics and they only watch the show. We know people who have never heard of the books, games, and show and they have only read the comics etc.". And as Star Wars said "in an infinite Halo universe. Anything is possible". So the game is only one teeny-tiny part of the "Haloverse"!Gogeta21 18:48, May 3, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!!!

But the Skirmisher only appears in a game. SPARTAN-125 Cally99117

Support - As per my comment/reply given to failing Gruntijackal.外国人^(7alk) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support- If we don't, Africans, Chinese, British, Koreans, etc. all deserve their own article.Lekgolo 20:21, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Don't they? Considering cultural heritage, society etc? Warhead xTEAMx 21:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

No, they really don't, because they have nothing to do with Halo. Skirmishers do. 24.192.86.139 21:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I never actually checked....Lekgolo 22:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral

Neutral I think that, since they are the same species, the Skirmishers should have their own section in the Kig-Yar article, detailing differences between the more common Jackal etc. However, Bungie has stated this: "Skirmisher: The Jackal and Skirmisher are of the same species, with the larger, more heavily muscled specimens comprising grenadier-type units (Skirmishers) and the smaller, more lightly built specimens seeing deployment as dedicated ranger or sniper units (Jackals). This is a significant change from engagements prior to 2530 when mixed units were more common.". Because the Skrimishers are given a specific role in battle, and are a dedicated unit, they should be given their own article, but still be featured in the Kig-Yar article. Perhaps the Kig-Yar article should be changed to feature the Kig-Yar as a species, with sections depicting the physiology of the Jackels and the Skirmishers, as well as the difference between the two, and then made a dedicated article for the Jackals and the Skirmishers, which featured more than their physiology, such as role in combat, ways to fight, tactics used by the two etc. Warhead xTEAMx 14:09, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose - Halo:Reach has not come out yet and we have a dearth of pre-release information regarding the Skirmisher as such, so I think it's too early to make this kind of call, as new information could force us to re-separate the articles. Until we get more information on their society, history, and bodily makeup, I'd say it's too early.Tuckerscreator 05:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Its a Sub-species, like Neanderthal are to Homo Sapien, but we do not merge the two races because they have their differences. Gruntijackal

Obviously your biology knowledge is beneath everyone who discussed in the previous section. >.>

Neanderthals are considered a sub-species because of many reasons; mainly of their bone structure and genetic makeup. The Skirmishers however, do not have such things as only their appearances (Those feathers might just be a helmet) have been altered. This is like saying Skirmishers and Jackals are two races of the Kig-Yar species just like how the Chinese and the British are two races of the human species (homo sapiens). With that said, your opposition fails epically.外国人^(7alk) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Actually British and Chinese are nationalities not races. --Jaguartalon 06:45, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

I know, I just laughed to myself at that statement. --Fluffball Gato 07:24, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - As per above. And above that. - Scot 113 16:52, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - They are different enough to get their own article, surely. Oh, and Subtank -Ascension-: Homo neanderthalensis isn't considered a sub-species of Homo Sapiens, but as one of the numerous branches of Homo Erectus, which Sapiens also originates from (This makes the two "cousins" is a taxonomical sense). "Race" is a meaningless term in genetics, as the difference in DNA between anyone is 1% (no matter who they are), thus you and Subtank are two different races because you are two different people.-- Forerunner 20:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Subtank said anything about Homo Sapiens. But whatever. You apparently don't understand that Bungie has already stated that both Jackals and Skirmishers are the SAME species: Kig-Yar. Whichever way you want to put it, they are one species. There are no sub-species, or cousins, or anything. By definition, that makes them two breeds/races. Period. It doesn't matter if one has seven legs. Bungie has stated it is a Kig-Yar and we're going to have to move it on the Kig-Yar page. If we want to instead make the Kig-Yar page link to two articles on the races (Jackal and Skirmisher...and we don't) then whatever. But neither race is superior enough to hog the page to themselves.

And you're technically wrong Forerunner. Though race may be nearly impossible by today's standards to derive strictly from the genotype of an organism, it has almost everything to do with standard Mendelian genetics and heredity (observing the pheotype that results from said DNA). As heredity and the links between Jackals and Skirmishers is actually what we're talking about right now, your statement of irrelevance is, in itself, irrelevent. =D --Nerfherder1428 22:11, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Show me the source. --7h3 Ma573r Chi3f (5par7an 117) (J0hn) (Ma573r Chi3f P377y 0ffic3r) 12:39, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

• sigh* Straight from Bungie.net: http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=enemies&cid=24609. Let's check our facts before we all run in to the room kicking and screaming our opinions at each other.--Nerfherder1428 22:27, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

But we have to wait until most of the users here know alot about Halo Reach (about 2011). Oh and Subtank don't just merge it right away because your an admin that voted for it, so don't merge it until we have enough evidence. ---->Master Chief Petty Officer John-117 ^{(Personal Favorite)}. 16:50, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Forerunner - Get it right it is Homo Sapien Neaderthalensis, and Homo Sapien Sapiens. Thus they are both subspiecies, or cousins of each other. Nerfherder1428 - You are right, they are both Kig-Yar, but it could be like what I said to Forerunner. It could be Kig-Yar (something) for Jackals, and Kig-Yar (something else) for skirmishers. Also like what shade said, we should wait for mor information, because if we find out that us who belive that they are cousins are right, then we will have to waste time reseparating them. There is far to many other projects to waste time on a preemptive correction that in the end could be wrong. -- A random know it all Halo fan

Oppose: Way too early to do so. We should wait until the game comes out, then we could study them more.--Shade 16:47, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - They are nothing like the Jackals. And if you merge this page I will request a merge on Mgalekgolo to Lekgolo, SAND TARP to Sandtrap, Pit Stop to The Pit, Boundless to Snowbound and Epilouge to Epitaph. 7h3 Ma573r Chi3f (5par7an 117) (J0hn) (Ma573r Chi3f P377y 0ffic3r) 16:41, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Never mind whether or not it is a sub-species. It is very distinctive in appearance, behavior, and gameplay role to the standard Jackal. Remember also that we have separate pages for the Lekgolo and the Mgalekgolo, and even more damning, separate articles for each form of the Flood, although they are all technically part of the same species. People searching for information on the Skirmisher should NOT be redirected to information on Jackals. It's asinine to compare this to having separate articles on different races of humanity. This is a HALO Wiki, and in the Halo games and universe, there isn't a significant difference between blacks and whites in overall role, for example, but there is clearly a very large difference between plain vanilla Jackals and the Skirmisher sub-race. Flayer92 18:41, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Just like you said if this can be merged then why not those pages said above? And maps like SAND TARP are just baisicly the same map with differences. Master Chief Petty Officer (Personal Favorite). 19:04, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Because it strikes me as just a really stupid idea. This is a Halo wiki. The purpose is to go in depth on Halo topics. In Halo gameplay, a Skirmisher is very different from a Jackal and so it deserves its own page. I don't think people should have to go tab down to the bottom of the Jackal article to find information on them. If combat ranks of Jackals are notable enough to each have their own page, then certainly a subspecies deserves one too. Saying the Skirmisher page should be merged into the Jackal one is like saying the ODST page should be merged into the Marines page. 24.192.86.139 21:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I sort of agree, but then again, the Skirmisher is very different from normal Jackals in a lot of ways. It may not be a different rank, but they obviously behave and look very different from the more commonly seen Kig-yar. In my opinion, the Kig-Yar article should have a subsection for the Skirmisher race detailing the racial differences but the way I see the Skirmisher, as an enemy, is basically similar to a different role, much like Kig-Yar Majors or