Talk:MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/Mark IV

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Many of you may know how I feel about this particular issue, but for the moment, I'm going to have to ask you to suspend your own opinions for a while and listen. The issue I'm talking about is of course what the Mk IV really looks like. I know you all have your own theories and whatnot, but because of those theories, you're all missing the point. In the event of a canon conflict, we at Halopedia don't decide canon. We decide which canon is more well supported within the realm of the Halo universe.

So to begin. The dispute settled initially on the cover to the Cole protocol which was later revealed to look completely different from the Spartans of Halo Wars fame. This made people argue. Somehow, people settled on the CP version. I'm going to fight for the other side.

First off, the Cole Protocol armor is a piece of concept art. That's it. It wasn't divinely handed down by Bungie. It was painted by an artist with a very loose set of guidelines in order to capture the feel of the book. That said, I still believe its canon. But not for all Spartans. No. You see the Spartans in the book were VERY different from other Spartans with a very different mission profile. They likely had different armor, just as Halo 3's Mk VI armor permutations were made for different jobs. Of course this is conjecture but as I'm about to explain, that explanation is likely the only way that the Cole Protocol version can be counted as canon.

You see, our current policy on canon clearly marks games as higher canon than books. (Halopedia:Canon policy - go there, it's great!) Yet we still hold the Cole Protocol image above Halo Wars. First off, that's incredibly stupid and un-halopedian. Secondly, the Cole Protocol cover has nothing to do with the book's canon, it's ARTWORK. It is separate from the book's information, story, and canonicity (I think you spell it that way?). Many of you people say that we should trust Bungie's book (via Subtank: "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"). And to many of those people, I wish to inquire about your mental state. The book came from a (relatively new) author who had access to the Halo Bible. Halo Wars also had access to the bible (via Frankie). The art came from a contractor hired by Tor to paint a Halo picture. Where is Bungie involved? NOWHERE. That's the beauty of my argument. And since when does canon have to do with a book's art rather than its story anyways?

Yet even though we have this hammered out, for the sake of argument, I'm going to concede to the fact that HW is a third party game, just as the books are third party literature. Yet even thought that theoretically puts them at the same level at BEST, our policy still makes no distinction that a third party game is less than a Bungie game. It groups all games as one. One place higher than literature that is. You see, Subtank had a conversation with me earlier about whether Halo Wars information about a vehicle or the Encyclopedia's contradictory information should be kept. We decided that even if both sets of information were from third party companies, what mattered was that games have always ranked higher than books. Always. Halo is a game first and foremost after all.

Anyways, moving on. It's interesting to note that the Spartan silhouettes in the Halo: Reach poster have Mk. IV armor more like that of the Halo Wars armor. This is concluded by finding the placement of the vents. On all armor suits in the series (including the ones on the Reach poster) the cooling vents are on the shoulders. Yet Cole Protocol shows Mk. IV armor to instead have vents on the chest, contradicting *GASP* official Bungie concept art. And I think Bungie concept art beats not-Bungie art!

The last piece of the feud is that Halo: Legends keeps the Halo Wars suit in mind when introducing its main character Cal. She has (almost) exactly the same armor as red team from HW. I think this is the nail in the coffin folks. We have a cartoon AND a game AND some Bungie teaser art supporting the HW armor. And we don't even have a BOOK describing the Cole Protocol version, we instead have a piece of concept art on its cover.

Thank you friends for hearing out my well-meant rant. I'm sorry it took so long but please discuss your opinions below. It is my dearest wish to rectify this situation ASAP. --Nerfherder1428 01:20, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Outstanding, superb, brilliant. Those are the three words that come to mind, along with all sorts of other accolades and affirmations. However, there is more information from the encyclopedia that is very enlightening on this very subject.

On pages 88-89, it describes the "Twenty-Five Years of Development" in an ecompassing way.

"More than just a suit of armor, MJOLNIR enhances the Spartan's physical performance nad also contains an onboardd artificial intelligence network that is neurally linked to the wearer. Because MJOLNIR Armor is so reactive, it can only be worn by a physically augmented Human such as a Spartan-II; an ordinary person would injure themselves. Dr. Halsey spent over twenty-five years working on upgrades to the armor, and created many variants and models of the six different generations of MJOLNIR technology: Marks I, II, III, IV, V, and VI."

What this passage tells us is very important; each Mark/Phase of MJOLNIR is not a singular suit, but rather an entire generation or line/lineage/array of suits with multiple variants and entirely different models, all of which are still part of that particular generation, be it Mk IV, V, or VI. That would mean different suits, like that worn by Red Team, Team Omega, and Cal-141 are one particular model of Mk IV, while that seen on at least one Grey Team Spartan, as seen on the TCP cover, is another model or variant of a model, but are all still Mk IV. They are all valid, with the Mk IV being present in multiple distinct forms and variants.

As for the Mk IV itself, the book describes it well;

"The Mark IV was the basis for all MJOLNIR designs. Eschewing the tank-like appearance of the previous models, the Mark IV allowed for direct user-control thorugh a neural interface that connected with the wearer's spine. The Mark IV did not feature many of the later advancements of the MJOLNIR line-it still did not have Energy Shields or magnetic holders for grenades, and it had a very limited radar unit- but it did feature a built-in fusion reactor that allowed for nearly unlimited movement. Rumors originating from the planet Ariel have claimed that there were more advanced prototypes of Mark IV in the field, including architecture for Energy Shields and perhaps even in-suit technology, but such reports have not been confirmed by ONI."

In other words, the Mk IV served as the foundation upon which Mk V and especially the VI improved upon, and that different models, variants, and prototypes of the Mk IV generation existed through that generation's twenty-plus years of service before the implementation of the Mk V and VI. And that wouldn't just be limited to functionality; the MJOLNIR worn by other Spartans in the other Halo: Legends episodes such as "Homecoming", "The Package", and most significantly "Prototype", show suits strongly but not entirely, similar to the Mk VI.

The major differences, especially in the case of "The Package", is that the armor possesses many features that the Mk VI does not have. The helmets are more primitive and jagged in appearance, as are the suits themselves. There is also a sort of "spine" on the back, and the armor panels are generally flatter and chunkier than the overall smoother and lean parts of the Mk VI. In short, they are clunkier, flatter, and rougher analogues or even precursors to the form that the Mk VI would take.

So I'd say that we have a very decisive message being sent by 343 Industries about this issue, and what we see in Halo: Legends; rather than mere artistic license, the MJOLNIR suits seen are different models, variants, and even evolutions of the Mk IV generation/line/lineage over time that serves as the functional, technological, and aesthetic foundation that goes to the Mk V and ultimately culminates in the Mk VI.

(P.S. Nerfherder1428; that armor is not fully identical to the Mk IV seen in Halo Wars and Legends, but is chunkier and rounder. It is the first glimpse at the visually updated "true" form of the Mk V, rather than the graphically and aesthetically primitive character model from Halo 1. Hopefully, it won't be a rehash of the failed "Mk V Redux" piece by Isaac Hannaford. That looked like a deformed, obese Mk VI pretending to be the Mk V.)

This is my multi-paragraph contribution to this issue. I will contribute more when I have time. Have a good Thanksgiving. Kig-Yar meat for all! --Exalted Obliteration 02:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

There are two problems with the initial argument. First the concept art for the Cole Protocol was not done by Tor. It was done by Isaac Hannaford with help from Lorraine McLees and Isaac's signature is viewable on the shoulder pad of armor; therefore that makes it Bungie Art. The second is the fact that Halo Legends as a whole is one big artistic interpretation, there are things that legends get wrong right down to the basic level (example: if you take a good look at the female Spartan from "The Package" in the behind the scenes preview for legends her MJOLNIR chest plate clearly defines that the armor is for females ((Boob Plates)) when we know for a fact that all MJOLNIR suits are unisex and cannot be distinguished.)

On the other account there is no evidence to support that any of the Spartans in the Halo: Reach poster are wearing the Mark IV. And I'm willing to go out and say you're wrong on that assessment considering the recent leaked pictures indicate they are wearing the Mark V or something similar. With the Reach poster however it is premature to make a judgment on a undefinable silhouette. Durandal-217 03:32, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Indeed Durandal, you bring up some good points. I was unaware of Lorraine McLees' involvement in Hannaford's drawing. Still not sure that a book cover has anything to do with the canon information of the book, but for now I'll submit. Agreed that Legends is an artistic interpretation and that Reach is premature, but once again my friend, you have a videogame that supports this. The rest, though somewhat assumed, are supporting details. As for the leaked screens, if you look carefully, the hand plate in first person actually looks like that of Halo Wars Spartans. Just sayin'. (Aha, I forgot it was you friend, that so vehemently argued with me over the Cole Protocol's version a few months back. Will you again stand in the face of reason now that we have a few more sources?)

As to Exalted Obliteration, I agree completely that this armor has its own variants. You bring up an amazing set of valid points. And I completely agree that BOTH sets of known armor are canon. (Yes I realized that Legends is only just similar to the Halo Wars version. That we agree on.) However, right now, I'm trying to discuss which of the known armor versions we should have as that first picture. In essence, I'm trying to show which version is more well supported, which I've undoubtedly (I think) proven to be the Halo Wars version.--Nerfherder1428 11:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

I would like to point that the Canon policy states Halo Games are the superior canon than other media provided that they are produced by Bungie employees directly, thus explaining why I refer "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's". Halo Wars was supervised by Bungie in terms of plot/canon issues/advices on developing the story but the design of the Mark IV was left to the artists' interpretation and not by Bungie. Also, note by the first point of our Canon policy which states Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public. If we were to apply the reasoning test:

1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by Bungie.

2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Ensemble (or, to be more specific, Blur Studio)

3. Canon policy dictates Bungie Employees are highest canon.

4. Thus, Mark IV in TCP is of higher than Halo Wars.

Toodles. :) - 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 12:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Plus, we can't really regard the visuals in Legends as canon; in "The Package" video, the Spartans are wearing a what appears to be the Mark VI, while they're obviously supposed to have the MK IV at that point. Even Frankie's stated it multiple times in the HBO Forums that most of the time, aesthetics aren't canon, at least not with the MJOLNIR armor, because "otherwise they'd be stuck with the H1 graphics", or something along the lines of that. Personally, i don't see a problem with the H1 design. Anyways, the TCP version makes more sense, even canon-wise; it actually looks like something that would predate the MK.V, instead of being a some kind of odd hybrid between the MK.V and VI. But like Frankie's said, most of the time, aesthetics aren't canon, not in 343's productions at least. The same applies for other things, such as hair in the anime, etc. Also, i think the armor in Reach looks more like the H1 design than the HW one, even having seen the leaked screens. But with the canon policy, there's really no problem. --Jugus 13:02, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Actually Madam Subtank, the canon policy just says HALO GAMES. Yes the description states that this is because they're made by Bungie, but the title makes no distinction between bungie games and ensemble games. Check again. And Ensembele's Halo Wars certainly wouldn't fit within the "other media" section (literature, soundtracks, and other media), nor would it be grouped in the "Bungie Affiliate" section (referring to employees outside of games and books via interviews etc.). As it is also not "Halopedia canon", where exactly does it fit? Answer me that riddle? Why do you not think it is grouped with the games? If you don't, I'd have to say our current policy (once again) needs to be updated to include references to Halo Wars.

So let's revise.

1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by an artist named Isaac Hannaford, ASSISTED by a Bungie Employee for ideas.

2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Blur, overseen by Ensemble, ASSISTED by Frankie O'Connor(though admittedly not much)-then Bungie employee.

3. Isaac Hannaford is no Bungie employee. Saying the TCP pic came from a Bungie employee because Lorraine McLees assisted in brainstorming ideas is like saying ANY book, trailer, or video game retains "Bungie Employee" canon status because they also were kept in line by Bungie Employee advisers. Would you place the Fall of Reach (or its cover) in the "Bungie Employee" category? No. You'd put it in the "Literature" category. Simple concept. Also, Hannaford had lots of freedom with the picture he created anyways.

4. Your arguments prove nothing. Even if you counted both Halo Wars and TCP picture on the same canon scale (Literature, soundtracks, and other media), Halo Wars would win out because it's a GAME. Games beat books. Always. Employees beat games, but once again, the TCP is not in the Employee section, it's in the literature section.

As for Jugus, I COMPLETELY agree that Legends is ALL artistic license. I think that the people picking out that particular point are misunderstanding me. I'm just saying that even if it IS artistic, at least the HW version still has SOME resemblance in another work.--Nerfherder1428 22:56, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Isaac Hannaford is a Bungie employee. Hes been working there for more then 4 years. Durandal-217 23:02, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Then I'd like to formally redact my statements regarding his employee status. :D Yet even still, our Canon policy points to things falling under Employee canon to be things released in interviews etc outside of commercial products right? Or else the games and Contact Harvest would be in the Employee canon sections. Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. Again, the games wouldn't have their own separate canon listing if that was the case. So once again, wouldn't the cover count towards literature?--Nerfherder1428 23:14, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from using Capslock. If you wish to stress a word or two, use <b>WORD</b>. Also, please perform proper research to support your argument in the near future. Anyway, back to the discussion.

Issue #1: Canon policy and Where Ensemble's Game falls: Ensemble's Halo Wars would fall in between #2 and #3 but more towards #2. Note that under point 2 of the Canon policy states that "video games was produced by Bungie employees directly" whereas point 3 of the Canon policy states "Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio". So, in all, Halo Wars' plot and storyline as they were supervised by Bungie would fall under #2, however, the artistic freedom such as the design of units, vehicles and scenery/landscapes would fall under #3. Never assume the content as whole (Halo Wars is not produced only by Ensemble. They are in charge of the gameplay. In terms of designs, they made a contract with various animation/technical studios such as Blur Studio - Refer to my "Reasoning Test"). Instead, dissect every details of that content and try to determine which place they fall under.

Issue #2: Regarding Novels and Authors and where they fall under the Canon policy: As per above, Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. This is not really an issue but Contact Harvest will still fall under #3's Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media even if it was written by a Bungie Employee. It is the status of the media/product that matters but not as whole. Elements/Details of the product still matters and it is up to us to analyse and conclude where they fall under... but as always, we don't determine what is canon and what is not without concrete proof/support/evidences. The Canon policy should only be referred to settle disputes on determining what is canon and what is not. Halo: Contact Harvest, written by Joseph Staten, had no major inconsistencies up to this day, thus being irrelevant to this discussion.

Conclusion: The Canon policy is still in perfect condition and there is no need to update it. If needed, we would require advice from Bungie/Frankie of 343 Industries. Never consider a product as whole. Dissect every detail of a product. Some details in one product might contradict another detail in another product. Such example would be the ODST's BDU in H2 and H3. Analyse the origin of the product and question Who made it? Is it Bungie or is it by someone else, When was it made? Was it before or after the official release? and Was it supervised by Bungie or did the artist had some freedom?. Final note: Research!- 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 00:03, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

You all bring interesting points, but what concerns me is that no Source has said which one is canon.(If I am wrong please give me a link to the source)Sith-venator Wavingstrider (Commlink) 03:50, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Both images/designs are canon, but based from what I've analysed, Bungie's design is of higher canon than Ensemble's.- 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 14:48, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Well, judging by the armor of the Spartans in the Halo: Reach opening cinematic, it looks like we have our definite answer on this now. The Cole Protocol version is canon, and Halo Wars version is not. --TDSpiral94 04:15, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Really? Since when?

Beyond one's biases and inferred reasoning, where is the proof that such a statement is undeniable fact?

Unless this is confirmed by Bungie and/or 343 Industries, that seems like too hasty of a conclusion to make. Also, aren't you aware of what the encyclopedia suggests on this matter? It states that the Mk.s' of the MJOLNIR series are a distinct generation of powered armor, within which exist not only attachment-based "variants" of the standard model, but multiple models, each likely having the same kind of variants.

This would mean that the Mk. IV, which had been in service for nearly 27 years, would have been upgraded consistently over the course of that time while still being of that particular generation before it is ultimately superseded by the Mk. V and VI generations in late 2552.

For more information, check what I wrote at the start