Talk:Covenant/Archive 2

Covenant Millitary

Before the subjects here were removed, i just wanna point out that whoever put that the statement on Covenant Millitary about the covenant ground forces being less capable than human ground forces is so right it doesn't do the Covenant justice. Even Grunts obliterate UNSC Marines with ease so going up against brutes, elites or hunters the marines have no chance. Whoever put down "It may be noted that despite that their technology is far more superior to the humans and their numbers are much larger as well, the covenant as ground warriors are much less capable and are often defeated and are often forced to retreat to glass the planet from space" needs severe medical attention because I think that it A) Downgrades the covenant severly B) Is so not true.—This unsigned comment was made by 62.30.140.42 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

If the sentence degrades the article quality and stays untrue to canon, remove it. - 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 19:50, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

It's all right it's been removed anyway, cheers though.—This unsigned comment was made by 62.30.140.42 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

It's "so right", is it? Wonderful. People always see the light in the end. Please go away and read page 7 of Halo: The Fall of Reach, where Human forces "stonewall" Covenant forces on the ground at the Battle of Jericho VII, and page 8, where it reads, "On the ground, Spartans always won." Not to mention Human forces routinely tearing through Covenant ground forces in all of the games, Halo Wars and Halo 3: ODST included. It's in space where the Covenant has the advantage.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 19:54, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

The UNSC are brilliant tacticians compared to the Covenant, who don't seem to have any plans, just going after anything. When it gets towards the end of the battle however, the UNSC chain of command will disintegrate and troops will become vulnerable. The 101st Drop Jet Platoon was destroyed by thousands of Unggoy. It doesn't mean that they are simply poor fighters, but that 45 men can't handle a thousand doses of burning plasma.-- Forerunner 19:57, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding human forces winning in the games; that is debatable. It all depends on gameplay and difficulty settings; higher difficulties will see that human forces will be easily eliminated by the opposing forces. The best illustration of a ground battle between the UNSC and the Covenant would be in Halo Legends; Homecoming, The Prototype, and The Babysitter.- 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 19:59, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

What was that about UNSC being brilliant tacticians as if the Covenant weren't !? I think you will find that if you read the article about Drones, at some point it will talk about a covenant tactic that can be used to wipe out a squad of UNSC Marines (which in the drones' case is to divert Marine fire upwards using the drones as a distraction whilst the infantry eliminate the marines or something like that). So the Covenant are good at ground combat as well as space it's just that there's much more of a difference in ability when it comes to UNSC-Covenant space combat as the covenant tend to be much more skilled at space combat than the UNSC, but even on ground when going against Marines or ODST the Covenant are still better than the UNSC it's only when the spartans help them, Marines' morale is boosted and that's probably why the UNSC wrongly get all the credit when going against the Covenant on ground-battles.

To debate against that you'll need to read this first "Yanme'e are deployed in battle situations, such as aerial insertions, among the Covenant, and, during the Great Schism, the Covenant Loyalists. They are used for surprise aerial ambushes and assaults, such as catching Human troops off guard and causing them to shoot upwards as a diversion so that their allies may attack on the ground. This is a common Covenant tactic that can be used to wipe out a whole squad of UNSC Marines."

This means the covenant millitary personell are excellent strategists and tacticians, they do have a mind you know they may have their flaws yeah which are exploited by the spartans but so do the UNSC and the covenant have slaughtered loads of spartans by 2552 a Jiralhanae killed one with his brute shot during Operation: First Strike which although wasn't on a planet it was still infantry combat (close-range).

That's right 90, and another strategy the covenant use involving the grunts is to use the latter to soften up the UNSC Soldiers the covenant are fighting and force the UNSC troops to waste ammo on the grunts and have the brute/elite leader finish them off. Often works as long as the chief isn't around.

Since apparently none of my comments made it over from the switch (THANKS) I'm going to say this very clearly. READ THE BOOKS. In ground combat, and this is stated very clearly in The Flood, several other books, and even in many incidents in-game (don't be stupid by assuming things based on Legendary play, which ARE HARDER FOR A REASON) that the UNSC is SUPERIOR in ground combat. They are physically weaker true, but are devestatingly accurate and far-superior in tactics, especially in MOUT. Even in close quarters Direct Action combat, a fire team of three ODSTs in the Bluff battle wiped out six Elite Special Operations troops and several grunts. The humans are better on the ground, period. Get over it. They win in space. --HellJump04 11:02, 23 October 2010 (EDT)

Oh, and in Halo Wars? Yeah, UNSC infantry are vastly superior to Covenant Forces. Doesn't take a genius to see that one either. And, I have to add, UNSC ground troops have a tendency to WIN even when vastly outnumbered by enemies equipped with vastly superior weapons and technology. That says something about the warrior. Also try ODST. Those guys aren't augmented, they're simply highly trained. What the hell do I know about war though? I only served as a sniper with First Ranger battalion and several other Air Force and Army Special Operations units. That's what drew me to Halo as a series. It proves that the MAN makes the warrior, not the weapons and not the tech.--HellJump04 11:09, 23 October 2010 (EDT)

Covenant/UNSC ground combat debate:

I am gonna get straight, to the point. When I came up the examples of the Covies kicking stupid human ass on ground in Halo 2, that wasnt on Heroic or Legendary it was on NORMAL!!! 2 brutes basically took on a large group of freed marines and WON!!! So, for you to say that the UNSC frequently engage and destroy the Covenant in games and books is not right. I could have sworn in the archived talk page of the covenant empire there was a guy who also stated that the statement about UNSC being more skilled than Covenant at ground combat was wrong.

As he rightly pointed out, the books make it absolutely clear to the reader how ridiculously ineffective the Marines are against Covie ground forces. Battle of Sigma Octanus, the marines were doing an absolutely fine job repelling the covenant forces "translation" they were doing so badly that they had to call upon the Spartans to blow it up causing heavy civilian casualties in the process. Battle of Earth, humans couldnt defend it to save their lives, had to rely on the Chief to do all the work. Battle of Installation 00, Chief and the Sangheili did most of the work for the UNSC. Its only because of their use of tactical nukes and ridiculously overpowered and superhuman cyborgs known as spartans the UNSC manage to win a lot of the time on ground. Now since when was that, tactical skill...

Face it HellJump04, its the UNSC who suck at ground combat against the Covenant, yes Elites may have a high death rate but that's only because their shields are poor and their in-game health is so low the Elites are far more superior in skill than the humans far more manouverable, tactical. All the humans have to do is stand around and fire a few bullets and "aoouugharh" one dead Sangheili, they always have to gang up on one to kill one anyway. Also, the idea that the UNSC are the true warriors when it comes to being the MAN who make the warrior not the tech is also untrue "cough" spartans "cough".

What about, Battle of Reach (or should I say Fall of Reach), the Covenant before glassing absolutely RAPED the Marines (and MOST of the Spartans present for that matter). The fact that even on normal the Covenant manage to prevail against the Marines (and sometimes the ODSTs even who are more skilled than the "green man" marines), considering Heroic is meant to be the most realistic difficult is something to reckoned with. Any counter-arguments or disagreements you have feel free to post 'em.

Signed: CookieMonstersayshello

Firstly, don't repost from old archives. It takes up space, and adds nothing to the debate that hasn't been said. Just linking to the discussion is fine. Secondly, you're seeing the UNSC under pretty exceptional conditions - Sigma Octanus? Completely taken by surprise. We see that the Covenant are still mopping up when the Marines arrive in their Warthog, and have to bring Hunters in to finish the job - the occupants of the Firebase obviously put up a fight. Also, those "civilian casualties"? Entirely inflicted by the Covenant. The city had already been slaughtered by rabid Jackals and Grunts, and the Spartans saved a small number of people with the nuke. Reach? A fleet of three hundred warships and many millions of Covenant soldiers. Obviously regular Marines/Troopers aren't going to be able to go toe-to-toe with Elites or Brutes, who constitute a core warrior/officer shock troop class, but the entire point of them is that they are rare. Reach was the first time they were deployed in numbers that tipped the balance of the ground campaign so far away from humanity. Before that, the majority of Covenant troops were poorly armoured and trained Grunts, and lightly armoured/armed Jackals, against whom Marines and Jackals have a much better chance. Even then, Reach only fell with the Covenant taking heavy casualties - the defence of the planet by humanity practically wiped out an entire military sub-caste. Earth? Once again, an exceptionally large fleet and the problems of evacuating a planet full of billions of people. Notice that by the time Halo 3 starts, what started out as a fleet of hundreds has been reduced to about thirty - and you insist humanity isn't effective? These battles are known in-universe as the exceptions to the rule, not the standard to measure against.

You're also making the logical fallacy that Heroic is a "realistic" mode. This is a game that features superheated plasma whizzing about on spaceships on ringworlds. Claiming that any gameplay is "realistic" is absurd. No Bungie or 343 source has ever said that it is meant to represent how it would happen "in real life" - they just say it's "how it's meant to be played", ie; from a gameplay point of view. This is a product designed to entertain gamers, not a military simulator. It is representative at best, at worst merely a designer choice for gameplay balance and challenge. If the Marines in-game were a match for the Covenant, it would be a pretty easy game. In the universe, UNSC ground forces have the advantage in tactics and strategy, communication, and environmental familiarity. The Covenant use brute force and mass numbers.

Finally, I'd like to direct you to a few inconvenient facts concerning the Spartans. Firstly, the biggest effect they had was to UNSC morale - in World War Two, America published comics about Superman kicking the collective asses of Hirohito, Mussolini and Hitler. Now imagine that Superman actually exists and that there are thirty five of them. They were a propaganda coup. Secondly, the Spartans are deployed in limited circumstances, usually as last-resort forces or as special operations forces for missions that could never be accomplished by "normal" humans - out-numbered, out-gunned, and out-flanked, and still win. Thirdly, with the exception of the suicide S-III Companies, there were never more than two dozen S-IIs. Spartans could never hope to win the war on their own, because they were spread far too thinly to have that huge a difference. But they were extremely valuable for motivating Marines and Troopers, and for precision strikes. -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 06:35, 5 April 2011 (EDT)

Covenant have just mass numbers and brute force..? Maybe for the Brutes yes, but what about the Elites I could have sworn it said several times enough for us Halopedians to get it through our heads, they are masterfully skilled tacticians or excellent tacticians renowned for their ferocity and decisive thinking. What about those covenants, and of course everyone uses strategy even if it invloves overwhelming force (take the flood for example). Or is Halopedia trying to create a social hierarchy in which:

Humans are at the top Elites second Brutes third

Cause I think that is wrong but then again im not Bungie so I couldnt possibly comment really.. but I do know that the Covenant are at least equals with the UNSC at ground combat if not better. The Spartans make the difference in every scenario, and it was probably the "spartan" humans who wiped out the skirmishers in the first place. That being said, the humans do do quite well in Alpha Base where they use the Elites honour code to their advantage. I think that side of the UNSC ground tactics is good, but seriously if only that could happen more often, save Earth a lot of trouble....

Having said all that this is only my opinion and is easily up for debate....

Signed: CookieMonstersayshello

I'm sorry, are you calling me racist?

Compared to other Covenant members, like the Grunts or Brutes, the Elites are superior tacticians and strategists. And they're not bad at it. But they still rely and brute force and numbers, even if they apply it in a much more intelligent manner. I'm not trying to create any sort of social hierarchy, because a society's military performance is not a reflection on the society's values or robustness. This is simply the mindset of the Elites, compared to that of humans - an emphasis on smaller, more effective teams cooperating, better communication between units, and different branches supporting each other. -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 15:41, 5 April 2011 (EDT)

Not so far that you are racist no. But there does seem to be some sort of social hierarchy made with humans at the top, Elites second and all other races at the bottom. As if the UNSC are supposed to be these "tactical role-models" and the Sangheili just look up to them (stupidly) and even consider their own tactics "dishonourable"... Thats what I mean, my point is how come covenant ground tactics always get slated on in the stories and other sources despite the fact that its blatantly obvious how "masterfully skilled tacticians" the elites are or how halopedia portrays them to be.. thats what im getting at. Halopedia implies even the elites suck at ground combat against the humans (and ground combat is pretty much the elites' life anyway so that cant be right)...

Signed: CookieMonstersayshello

I think that's just you. It's not because of your so-called, "social hierarchy" that we think humans are the best strategists (because on Halopedia (or Wikipedia, at least) we are not bias toward any species, especially fictional ones). It's because humans are the best strategists that we say they're the best strategists. You can't just call us racists when we say something you don't like. We have given sources to ANYTHING we put in the article. So, why don't you back into the article, and read the sources listed. Because again, we say they're the best strategists because they have shown evidence of that fact. Vegerot (talk) 16:09, 6 April 2011 (EDT)!!

The tactics that Elites use are medieval, or roughly that. I don't mean that in any negative way - at the time, the tactics used by medieval armies were ideal for the types of battles they fought. The Covenant are still trapped in that mentality. The Elites are brilliant, and have proven innovative when compared to other Covenant species. Against humans, they're very good at small-scale operations - deploying and coordinating teams of warriors in combat. But on the larger scale, they're still using medieval tactics with technology beyond their understanding. Think about it. Give Henry V's army lasers and spaceships, and pit them against the US military. You'll find that the aristocracy has been groomed as officers since childhood, and have a mindset of how their combat should be, but there will be some who adapt. The US military will use far superior tactics and strategies, having the advantages of radio, a regimented chain of command, promotion by merit rather than by political/familial ties, etc, but they would still be out-gunned and, in keeping with medieval military practice, outnumbered. Instead of aristocrats, you have the Elites. Instead of Archers, you have Jackals; Grunts replace Pikemen, Brutes replace Knights, and Hunters are literal seige engines. Drones...the metaphor doesn't really extend to them. Would they be the wall of flaming arrows coming at you? Even Wraith remind me of Catapults, punting their loads of plasma in a parabolic arch, like a trebuchet. The use of Banshee's in-atmosphere has always reminded me more of World War I or II propellor-driven planes than the sleek, fast fighters we use today.

The Elites work with what they have, and they've done well with the mindset they're stuck with. They have to face a "modern" military, though, which presents different challenges - better unit cohesiveness, inter-branch cooperation, and use of communication to align the tactical with the strategic. Old tactics and strategies that were once good enough are now rendered obsolete, and the Covenant's primary advantages, as said before, are numbers and firepower. The Elites have to adapt to these new tactics. It isn't hierarchical at all, except for the Covenant - the tactics used by the Elites are just as valid as those used by the humans. In Halo: The Flood we see the Elites perform a literal cavalry charge on Ghosts - the ODSTs respond by adopting a medieval tactic of a box formation, except instead of a wall of pikes and spears, they create a wall of flying lead. In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, they sacrifice dozens of Grunts in a diversionary tactic for the real assault force to reach a more defensible attack position. Archaic? Yes. Intelligent? Very much yes. We know that the Elites are tactically intelligent enough to create the highly successful Special Operations units, which have a devastating effect, and are intelligent enough to turn human weapons and personnel against them. They're starting off from a different mindset, though, which needs to be offset or compensated for. The result is a hybridised mix of traditional "medieval" elements, combined with elements borrowed from or adapted for the humans - Seraph fighters/bombers, special operations troops, Drone air cover, orbital fire support, etc. My point is, it is this adaptation that proves the Elite's certainly aren't the "throw cannon fodder until they fall back" strategists you think we think they are.

If the wall of text is a bit intimidating, it boils down to this - there is no "hierarchy" of better-vs-worse. The Elites have a different battle doctrine than the UNSC. That's all. -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 05:19, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

I love you...r explanations. ;) — subtank 08:57, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

(sorry for continuing this already decided debate) Wait, r as in "are" or "our"?Vegerot (talk) 16:42, 7 April 2011 (EDT)!

My explanations love you too, Subs! -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 18:06, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

Dont you think that ought to straighten up then, because if you take the Elites into account to say the Covenant as ground warriors, are much less capable than the UNSC is a sweeping statement. Even the Jiralhanae (for as thick as they are sometimes) have had their moments of tactical cunningness, not to mention they dont even have a code of honour restricting them (unlike the other-wise smarter Sangheili). So the Covenant ARE good tacticians (like some of the UNSC such as Cole and Keyes in particular)...

Needless to say Covies have the advantage of having as you said a "hybridised mixture" of other races (drones, grunts, jackals, hunters, engineers etc), cause they can use all of those races for their unique skills (drones = flying, brutes = ferocity, elites = intelligence, grunts = numbers, hunters = strength etc). The humans dont have that....

Signed: CookieMonstersayshello

On that note, doesnt mean the Covies are perfect tho --CookieMonstersayshello 09:12, 8 April 2011 (EDT)CookieMonstersayshello--CookieMonstersayshello 09:12, 8 April 2011 (EDT)

Yes they do... Jump-jets=flying, pissed of solder=ferocity, humans in general=intelligence, (as much as I hate to say it, in a last resort situation) humans=numbers, BFGs=strength. Vegerot (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2011 (EDT)!!!!

As in natural abilities or strengths the races are born with and i'm still not convinced the Sapiens are smarter than Sangheili yet, I mean in battle because most Elite weapons are suited to short-range fighting, the elite has to work twice as hard to outmanouver their well-armoured human foes to even get one kill in. Also when the Elites helped the humans, the Cove