Editing Talk:Paegaas Workshop Spiker (section)

== Naming Dispute ==

I think we should name the article "Brute Spiker" or "Brute Spike Rifle" and have it's technical ONI name, Type-25 Carbine be included within the article as an "also-known". I think that its most common name should be used, for the same reason we do not call the M6D article the Model 6D Pistol article or the SRS99D S2 AM sniper rifle article the Sniper Rifle System 99D S2 Antimaterial Rifle article. 

To support this, if you go to Halo3.com the section where it talks about the Brute Spiker designates it as the "Brute Spike Rifle". I think we should call it that then. [[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 22:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
:We usually use the technical and official designation for weapons and equipment like this, because "Spiker" is only the weapon's nickname. --<b>[[User:ED|<font color="000000">ED</font>]]<sub>([[User talk:ED|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sub><sup>[http://halopedian.com/User:ED/Gaming<font color="000000">(gaming)]</font></sup></b> 04:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)





'''Why not just change the name of the article to Type-25 Carbide "Brute Spiker"?
'''Thereby citing both the ONI designation AND the common nickname of the weapon. Also, Bungie themselves have repeatedly called this the "Type-25 Carbine 'Brute Spiker'"'''.''' [[User:70.48.199.159|70.48.199.159]] GuiltySpark






'''
Well, I guess I can agree with Justin Time. The Brute Spiker would also be easier to say... But it's not the name of the gun. Hmmm. Well, the Brute Spiker sounds a lot cooler. Plus, that's what Bungie calls it, and what the In-Game charactures call it. I think we should rename it to Brute Spiker! [[User:Spartan99|Spartan99]] 7:15 AM, 14,August 2007

Well I can understand that, but it seems unlikely we will even hear the words "type-25 carbine" in either the Halo 3 game or manual, so I think the article should be called Brute Spike Rifle for the same reason that in the real wikipedia the article on Cats isnt called Felis silvestris catus. [[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 20:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with ED, Halopedia is a place for correct names, not nicknames...
<br />File:UNSCoH_Dingo_without_letters.PNG|30px]]UoH/D Company|<font color="silver"><b>Captain]]</b></font> [[User:CommanderTony|<b><font color="crimson">Tony</font>]]</b><sup>[[User Talk:CommanderTony|<b><font color="black">Talk]]</font></b></sup> 8/1/2007

agreed(same with justin time) [[User:Spartan-007|Spartan-G007]] File:kpisalasergod2.gif|35px]] <sup>[http://live.xbox.com/en-GB/profile/profile.aspx?pp=0&GamerTag=SpartanG007 <font color=green>XBL gamertag:SpartanG007</font>]</sup>

Justin Time, please accustom yourself to halopedia's naming system. It's like that. If we follow your rule, all weapons and vehicles pages will have to be renamed. Maybe even more....--[[User:Spartan781|'''<font color="LightGrey">Sp</font><font color="DarkGray">art</font><font color="Gray">an-</font><font color="Black">781</font>''']] File:Kill_Frenzy_Medal.gif|30px]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan781|<font color="black">Comm</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartan781|<font color="black">CSV</font>]]</sub> 14:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

** Thank you spartan-007. And no Spartan781, if we were to follow YOUR naming system all the pages would have to be changed. Remember that the Mongoose and Warthog are not official ONI names, and so the Mongoose page would have to be changed to just M247 ULATV, because the designation "Mongoose" is just a nickname. --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 21:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
:::"Type-25 Carbine" I don't believe is the ONI name, although my memory's pretty rusty. ^^ Check out the Bungie.net weekly update. ;-) However, as always, we appreciate your interest, Justin! =] Cheers, [[user:RelentlessRecusant|<span style="color: #6262FF; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''RelentlessRecusant'''</span>]] 'o the [[halowikia:Halopedia:Administrators|Halopedia Team]]  <small><sup>[[user talk:RelentlessRecusant|<font color="#A9A9A9">TALK</font>]]</sup> • <sub>[http://{{SERVERNAME}}/index.php?title=User_talk:RelentlessRecusant&action=edit&section=new   <font color="A9A9A9">MESSAGE</font>]</sub></small> 23:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Whos title are we going by of naming it, the brutes or humans,sure it's called a carbine but it's as big as an MA5 assault rifle.It's kind of strange (but not in a bad way) that the Covenant weapons are almost always bigger if compared to a human version in the same class but that's only because they ment to be used by big aliens.--[[User:0nyx Sp1k3r|0nyx Sp1k3r]] 00:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)BLARG!!!

**That is true, the Brutes most likely call it the Spike Rifle, I am much more inclined to believe that then the Brutes calling it "type-25 carbine". Not only that, but most humans call it the Spike Rifle or Spiker also. --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 05:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

**If you're going to rename this, then why not do the same to Brute Chopper and [[Spike Grenade]] articles?--[[User:Spartan781|'''<font color="LightGrey">Sp</font><font color="DarkGray">art</font><font color="Gray">an-</font><font color="Black">781</font>''']] File:Kill_Frenzy_Medal.gif|30px]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan781|<font color="black">Comm</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartan781|<font color="black">CSV</font>]]</sub> 01:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

'''NOTE:'''The Type-25 thing is just like the model number of the UNSC weapons. The Carbine part is like the "ICWS" part of the assault rifle. The whole '''TYPE-25 CARBINE''' name is the full ONI name. So please, we want COMPLETE names, not common names. Because for example:the common name of the assault rifle is just '''Assault Rifle'''. If we rename his article, we might as well take out all the UNSC weapon numbers and designations(like ICWS or MAGNUM). Please, Justin, and all those who think alike, please think it out.The '''Type-25 Carbine''' is the name given by '''BUNGIE'''.--[[User:Spartan781|'''<font color="LightGrey">Sp</font><font color="DarkGray">art</font><font color="Gray">an-</font><font color="Black">781</font>''']] File:Kill_Frenzy_Medal.gif|30px]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan781|<font color="black">Comm</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartan781|<font color="black">CSV</font>]]</sub> 01:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

** Spartan781, I hate to say it, but that comparison, is wrong. The 'Type-25' in this weapons name is like the 'MA5C'  designation for the Assault Rifle, Carbine, is a weapon type, just like Assault Rifle. ICWS (which stands for 'Integrated Combat Weapon System', is what the weapons is used, or was designed to be, just as the 'AM' in SRS99D S2 AM stands for 'Antimaterial') -- [[User:Avalon324|Avalon]] 08:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

-<b>Spartan-781</b>, Why did you make two seperate notes? Oh well. I would not personally mind changing the Spike Grenade and Chopper article names, but right now I do not feel like getting into them right now since I am already doing a lot of work in a lot of articles.

And I am well aware that type-25 carbine is its ONI/UNSC designation, but since I am not saying to call this article "carbine" or "type-25", that means I am not wagering to call the MA5C Assault Rifle "MA5C" or "Assault Rifle".

No, I am not talking about UNSC naming designations, I am talking about the Brute/common soldier naming designations for their own weapons. --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 05:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is it called a rifle...when...its like not a rifle.--[[User:64.121.58.80|64.121.58.80]] 08:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The '''Type-25 Carbine''' is what i know the gun as however a disambugation page that redirects to here for Spiker and Spiker rifle would be mighty useful. And as for that message above, a carbine is a shortened rifle (such as the M4A1 is the shortened version of the M16). --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 14:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with titling it "The Brute Spiker" or something. And who cares what its real name is if basicly no one uses it in a conversation. This is about wither or not change its name. Ed's idea is great. Also, Spiker is easier for people  hew don't focus on a weapon's or a vehicle's real name when its easier to called it by it's nick name to search for. many people go by a gun's nick name. But still it's important to know its true name, but If you merely want to find information on it, it would be easier to use its nickname. --[[User:Hydraman|Hydraman]] 23:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The thing is if somebody searches Spiker or Spiker Rifle, it redirects them to the Type-25 Carbine page anyway. --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 07:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it is better to have the name as Type-25 carbine because that is its proper name. Justin Time: I think it sounds more profesional to have it as Type-25 carbine because we should use the full and proper names. Not the nicknames.

[[User:Spartan G-23|<font color="#000000">Staff Sergeant-G023</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan G-23|<font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartan G-23|<font color=#000000>Mission History</font>]]</sub>File:Marine Corp SSGT.JPG|20px]]UoH/B Company|<font color="#000000">B Company</font>]] 15:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should compromise and name the article something like Type-25 Brute "Spiker" Carbine. If we only had proper names as titles the mongoose article would have to only include the M247 ULATV and exclude the "mongoose" nickname. I think this is too vague for someone unfamiliar with the Halo 3.-- [[User:EliteSpartan|EliteSpartan]] 1:56 August 11 2007

But thats not its proper name thats its UNSC name. We dont call the Master Chief article "Demon", so why should we call a covenant article by its UNSC name, espescially if that UNSC name isnt even commonly used by most members of the UNSC itself? --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 07:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry justin, but thats incredibly flawed. besides we don't know what the Covenant name for it is. And  EliteSpartan, you have failed to take my previous message into account. If you type in spiker rifle or spike rifle and such similar things, it will redirect you to the page do it doesn't matter! --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 11:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ajax does have a point, we dont know if "Spiker" is the covenant name. We should probably wait until Halo 3 comes out  or it is confirmed that type-25 is the true or just the UNSC name. But if Spiker does turn out to be the covenant name the article should be renamed because that would be its "true" name (see Justins previous post). -- [[User:EliteSpartan|EliteSpartan]] 2:17 August 12 2007

Here here. I am so confident that the words type 25 carbine wont even be uttered by the UNSC, that I am willing to take that bet. --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 04:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and here here, I don't think the UNSC would even utter "MA5C ICWS Assault Rifle". They just say "Assault Rifle". Justin, stop being a "noob" around here. No offense though.--[[User:Spartan781|'''<font color="LightGrey">Sp</font><font color="DarkGray">art</font><font color="Gray">an-</font><font color="Black">781</font>''']] File:Invincible.gif|30px]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan781|<font color="black">Comm</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartan781|<font color="black">CSV</font>]]</sub> 13:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No, probably not the ICWS. But the MA5C and such will be clearly in the game on ammo cartridges, weapon pick ups, maybe some dialogue, and not to mention the UNSC point of view manual. So whats your point? --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 22:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey its like the human weapons have abreviated names the Covenant Weapons no. please dont try more you are losing.--[[User:Clavix2|<font color="Black">Clavix2</font>]] File:Halo2emblem.ashx.jpeg|30px]] <sup> [[User talk:Clavix2|<font color="Red">TALK TO ME </font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Clavix2|<font color="Black">Things I done </font>]]</sup> 22:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Human weapons have abbreviated names, the Covenant Weapons no"? Somewhere out there, an english teacher is weeping... -_-

Losing? Well I can probably guess what grade level of school your in...seriously, reply with an intelligent rebuttal if you are going to dispute something someone else has said.

Anyways, as has been said, we cannot really decide until the game is released, so I suggest we suspend discussion until then, then we will see who is right.  --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 02:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Say me how much people is with you, and I say that human weapons have a technical name like the MA5C but this weapons or the most part of covenant weapons dont have this name, best leave it. --[[User:Clavix2|<font color="Black">Clavix2</font>]] File:Halo2emblem.ashx.jpeg|30px]] <sup> [[User talk:Clavix2|<font color="Red">TALK TO ME </font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Clavix2|<font color="Black">Things I done </font>]]</sup> 02:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

*I trust Bungie more than the instructional manuals, those are always riddled with mistakes. I've only ever seen bungie make one mistake. If Bungie says it's designation is Type-25 Carbine, who is to doubt them? And i think i have said this 2 or 3 times already but the name doesn't matter, as long as they type in one of its names then it will all go to the same page. Liek if you type assault rifle it goes to a disambugation page for Ma2B and MA2C and maybe a few more. Same with battle rifle and sniper. --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 03:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Name does matter, because I am sure people would care if we renamed the shotgun "Banana Launcher" and decided it was okay because shotgun redirected to there. Not to mention people searching for the Spiker not by its common name will not recognize "type-25 carbine" as what they are looking for if they come upon a "Articles with references" page.

Also, Halo 3 is going to be more then a manual, its going to feature a huge amount of bonus content sure to contain information about the Spiker. All written by Bungie by the way.

And Bungie is the source of all the info on Halo, and I think it would be more appropriate to call the Spike Rifle what it is called by its own brute users in the game, and the UNSC within the game, and the manual if it says that, then some small unknown designation given to it by Bungie in some obscure online post. For the same reason we call the Major Elite page "Major Elite" rather then "Major Domo".

But lets not get our panties in a bunch, and wait for the game and other information to come out before we decide anything, because we do not have enough info as of now. 

P.S., Clavix2, for someone who is editing an <i>english</i> wiki, you sure dont speak good english. --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 03:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Just leave it is the name its on halo 3 beta, on magazines, etc. And what if im not good at English im from somewhere when people dont talk english, we arent discusing my f*cking english. [[User:Clavix2|<font color="Black">Clavix2</font>]] File:Halo2emblem.ashx.jpeg|30px]] <sup> [[User talk:Clavix2|<font color="Red">TALK TO ME </font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Clavix2|<font color="Black">Things I done </font>]]</sup> 03:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

*As far as I have seen, when you pick it up in the beta it says "spiker" and the magazines have pretty much only called it the spiker or spike rifle. And your english does matter, since this is an english wikipedia. Can we all agree to reserve judgement for release? If you really think youre right it wouldnt matter if the game was released now would it? --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 03:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh God 1. Please leave my f*ucking english quiet, we are talking about the spiker. 2. If you want to change name just do it then people will talk and ... you know. Really I dont want to fight i want to have friends not enemies. [[User:Clavix2|<font color="Black">Clavix2</font>]] File:Halo2emblem.ashx.jpeg|30px]] <sup> [[User talk:Clavix2|<font color="Red">TALK TO ME </font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Clavix2|<font color="Black">Things I done </font>]]</sup> 21:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Justin but do you purposly ignore other peoples points unless you can ridicule them? You do not understand that should somebody type in Spiker of Spike Rifle and hit go, they cme directly to the Tpye-25 Carbine page, which right at the top notes that the weapon is called Spiker and Spike Rifle and has a great big picture of it. And whats the unreleated crap about the shotgun being renamed the bana launcher? Its beside the point. Also the reason why we call the Minor Elite by Minor Elite and not Minor Domo because it has NEVER been called Mior Domo, only the Major Rank was named with a Domo (Major Domo) and even then it was only used once. and as words straight from Bungie's cyber mouths, 'Over the years it has garnered the nicknames “Spike Rifle”, “Spiker”, and “hatchet gun”.' In fact, we don;t know what Brutes call them but all references to it by marines have called it the spike rifle, so if we name it by what the marines do then the page should be renamed to 'Spike Rifle'. Infact, it was only called the spiker is an informal pick up name on the beta. If we are to rename things after they are called from action buttons does that mean the M12 LRV 'warthog' should no longer have its military designation and should be permenantly called by its nickname?

Now, this has gone on long enough and the simple facts are Justin, your wrong because both the community and Bungie disagree with you. The only thing you have in yourr favour is a pick up name used in an unfinished build of the game. And again, like i said, all the nicknames of the Type-25 Carbine link to this page, so should you click on a link under called 'spiker' surprise surprise, you come here. --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 21:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I already refuted your redirection point. We need correct names for articles even if they are redirected, because if I typed in brute smg, and got a page which showed articles with mentions of brutes and smgs, no casual gamer would ever know to click on the "type-25 carbine" somewhere near the bottom, they would not know that that is the name of the weapon whos name they forgot.

And you know I meant Major Elite. And that was straight from an official source to, but because it was only mentioned once and not in the core stuff, we call the article "Major Elite" instead of "Major Domo". Same goes for the spiker.

And your warthog example works against you to (besides the obvious differences like being mentioned in more then one place, being in the manual, etc.), after all you would not remove the word "warthog" from our [[Warthog]] article because it is just a nickname right?

I think it is pretty damned fair that if the whole of Halo 3 does not call it the type-25 carbine, including its manual and stuff, then we should call it "Spike Rifle" with mention of its official designation in the article. After all, we did the exact same thing for "Major Elite", for the same reasons, didnt we? --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 23:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

*I think if somebody typed Brute SMG into search and it came up spiker, they still wouldn't know what the hell was going on. Besides, thats why we have search, so you can look at different articles that are found in a search. And how is a casual gamer going to know about the spiker? A majority of halo fans didn't even play on the Beta, so there only sources of information would be the web, like here, or bungie (where surprise surprise, it was called the Type-25 Carbine :D). Now seeing as the Type-25 Carbine name has been set in internet stone by Bungie staff and its the official system here to name everything by their OFFICIAL designation, not an informal nickname. Now i think your a good editor but you need to get your facts worked out and get accustomed to the inclusionist rule on here. Basically we include every little morsel of Halo knowledge and trivia, usually to its own page, such as the MA5 series assault rifles, the BR55 series, the sniper rifle series of weapons (never can remeber it's name). And also, if its full, proper designation, is spoke of in a concrete source, then it is used. In this case, the Type-25 Carbine. --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 01:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If they put brute smg into the search, and they saw Spiker, it is more likely to jog their memory since they see that word every time they pick it up in the game, then type-25 carbine is.

You are right in there being few sources of information, that is why I have proposed to suspend judgement until after release, which since you also agree on the lack of information I do not see why you should disagree on that. It stays "type-25 carbine" until release, and if you are confident you are right, the release and playing of the game for a while should not change anyones opinions.

The type-25 is an official designation, just like Major Domo is. I think as a general rule vague EU naming should take a backseat to the other name if the other name is used in practically all other sources, espescially if there is a chance that the other name is what the Covenant actually call it. 

Wouldnt you agree that if the game came out and the Covenant actually called it that, it should be changed to their naming for their weapon? Thats why we should wait judgement for more information.

And I know we include all details about a thing in its page, that is why I have joined wikipedia. However, type-25 carbine is no more the proper or inclusionist name of the weapon then M12 LRV is the full and proper name of the Warthog article. Also, this Wiki has tended to make the names of the articles more accessible to the casual Halo gamer then the hardcore gamer who is one of the few that remembers the odd EU designation Bungie gave it. That is why Major Elite is not "Major Domo", that is why the nicknames for human vehicles appear in their names (warthog, mongoose, scorpion), and that is why the Covenant pages have their common names first, and their official EU designated names in parenthesis (for example: Elites (Sangheilli)).

As I am sure we can agree, there is no point going back and forth over the same things and "it could be possible"s, so lets leave it how it is for now and wait for release to give us the maximum possible information to make a decision. --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 01:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

*I agree with Ajax. Besides if we did rename this article the Spiker then we would have to reanem the M90 Shotgun page as the Shotgun, or the SR999C S2 AM Sniper Rifle page as the Sniper Rifle ect. Justin, please recognize that halopedia is meant for the technical names, not the nicknames.

--[[User:Spartan G-23|<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan G-23|<font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartan G-23|<font color=#000000>Mission History</font>]]</sub>File:Master sergeant.jpg|20px]]UoH/B Company|<font color="#000000">B Company</font>]] 01:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

**Justin Time, as far as I can tell, you want to go by the ONI name, but the thing that you have to realize is that Halopedia is not UNSC-centered, so we have to go by the official name. Kay? --<span style="font-weight: bold;" title="GPT does not work for Wikia">NOTASTAFF</span> <b>[[User:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="000000">GPT</font>]]<sub>([[User talk:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sub><sup>([[Special:Contributions/Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="000000">eating</font>]])</sup></b> 01:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No, the M90 shotgun would still be the M90 shotgun, because that is its full and official name as stated by the game, the manual, and all EU sources.

Guesty, you are wrong. I am against the ONI name, and <i>for</i> the non-UNSC centered name, so you should actually be agreeing with me...--[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 01:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

*Gah, I'm sick and exhausted, cut me a little slack please... I thought "Type-25 Carbine" was the Covenant name or sumfink and you wanted to go by the nickname. Well, anyway, what I mean is that, while it's best to go by it's name according to those affiliated wif it, if we can't, nickname should be our LAST option, so "Type-25 Carbine" is still bettar than "Brute Spiker," IMO. Maybeh. Gah, I'll figure it out once I'm bettar... =S --<span style="font-weight: bold;" title="GPT does not work for Wikia">NOTASTAFF</span> <b>[[User:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="000000">GPT</font>]]<sub>([[User talk:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sub><sup>([[Special:Contributions/Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="000000">eating</font>]])</sup></b> 01:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

**Oh, GPT forgot to mention, he's an admin with the last say in the matter ;]. --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 01:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but he doesnt seem very decisive right now. GPT, youd agree that if it was called "Brute Spiker" or "Brute Spike Rifle" in the Halo 3 manual, extra content, game scripting, marines, Brutes themselves, and other Covenant in Halo 3, that the article should be called Brute Spike Rifle or Brute Spiker and "type-25 carbine" should be listed as another name for it in the article since it would have only one obscure internet post from the UNSC point of view calling it that right? --[[User:Justin Time|Justin Time]] 01:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

*Jesus, this has been going on MUCH too long, everyone is practically against you and Bungie calls it the Type-25 Carbine and that's all there is f***** to it [[User:ChurchReborn|ChurchReborn]] 01:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

**Now now CR no need to yell at the guy.

--[[User:Spartan G-23|<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Spartan G-23|<font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel&l