Talk:Magnetic Accelerator Cannon

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MAC Yields and Realism

I just want to throw this out there since the talk page seems to be centered around the power of this weapon: none of the figures that have been calculated can be possible, and I doubt the authors of the novels or the encyclopedia considered logic too terribly much when they wrote them, thus they simply made up figures that sounded cool. Here's why 1.17 teratons is completely retarded and unrealistic: the covenant supercruiser of FoR took 3 MAC hits to its shield, and it didn't fail. That would be equal to 1.17*3=3.51 teratons of kinetic energy dissipated. The largest nuclear weapon ever detonated was the Tsar Bomba in 1961, at 50 megatons. Thus, the supercruiser's shield should have absorbed over 70000 times the energy of the world's most powerful nuclear weapon, which itself had a power output of 1.4% of the sun. If covenant ships can generate that much power, then one of them should be able to obliterate the planet (exaggeration, yes, just making a hyperbole here). HORNET mines, as seen in GoO, can destroy a fleet of covenant vessels, yet they are but a mere 30 megatons of yield. How is this possible? Because the MAC is not nearly as powerful as is asserted on this page. We know that covenant vessels can survive nuclear blasts in the multimegaton range undamaged, but as a nuclear detonation in space spreads its energy out spherically from the point of detonation, a comparatively tiny fraction of the energy is going to hit any given ship, even at point blank. Those who have asserted powers in the several kilotons are likely the most accurate in regard to the MAC power, given what we know about nuclear weapons vs covenant shields. And the power of the super MACS? All recharged in 5 seconds? Don't even get me started on the rediculous nature of THAT.... Quakeomaniac 08:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

1. This is Sci-fi, get use to it.
2. Non of the figures calculated can be possible? Its sci-fi and canon overrides all else.
3. Lie, the shields of the super cruiser were downed by MAC 3 MAC rounds and around 500 Archer missiles.
4. GoO is overruled by the latest canon info, the Halo Encyclopedia: The Definitive Guide to the Halo Universe. Per Bungies canon policy old overrules old so older sources can not be used to overrule it.
5. Farther on Nukes: The UNSC NOVA Bomb is proof that the UNSC has Teraton range nuclear devices given that it is stated to be nine fusion warheads with yield increased a hundredfold which means each warhead is 1/900th of the low-end 1.2 Petatons!

If Megaton range weapons were able to be used why then would the UNSC not nuke spam the Covenant with the resources needed for one NOVA Bomb?

1. Ah, trying to dispute a state canon fact that the SMACs per TFoR can fire every 5 seconds?
2. This is sci-fi, watch Star Trek if you really want to see impossible stuff.—This unsigned comment was made by 207.200.116.136 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

Quakeomaniac does have a point, if not to point out the inconsistencies of Halo. The Covenant shields do seem to possess different outputs and strengths, as many different weapons of different yields can be used to tear through their shields. A teraton range does seem unrealistic if a megaton warhead is enough. I would think that ships armed with MACs would have little trouble against Covenant ships. Aiming would be the hardest part. Can you be more clear on your 1.2 Petaton assertion? That seems like an AWFULLY large yield for a mere nine warheads, even if they are fusion.

As for Star Trek, yes the stuff is impossible, but the creators hired scientists, physicists, and other experts in the field to literally invent futuristic devices, sights, concepts, and technology that was not only futuristic and cool, but also scientifically possible, meaning we as the modern human race could produce it or find it given the proper resources. Everything on that show is something that could theoretically exist (can't speak for the new movie).   ΘяɪɸɴF22    Me    Talk    Contributions    CAG   14:46, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate you taking the time to consider what I said Orion rather than just call me an idiot with a bunch of nonsense. Regarding the inconsistencies, here's an interesting one. The page for the covenant carrier states it can withstand 3 MAC rounds (not sure where that comes from, I'll just take it for now). Yet, the supercruiser in TFoR also took 3 MACs and a bit more (the archers) to drop its own shields. This implies that the carrier and supercruiser, two drastically different sized ships, have roughly equal shields. Makes little sense. This could perhaps be rectified if we knew the yield of an archer missile relative to a MAC round, but we assume its low based on the book. As for the guy who doesn't bother to sign his comments: Yes, this is sci-fi, thank you captain obvious. This does not prevent a meaningful discussion of it. As far as canon, that's the whole point I'm making, nothing agrees. As for the supercruiser, can you tell me where I mentioned the archer missile part? The GoO assertation doesn't need comment. Also the NOVA bomb is nowhere near a normal nuke, and the technology used in it is NOT used in the reactors on ships, which is what powers the MAC. And I'm not trying to state the SMAC can't fire every five seconds, merely that its energy usasage (if it's a 9+ teraton shot) is unrealistically enormous. Anyway, please consider what I said and try to have a meaningful discussion on it rather than insult me. Quakeomaniac 18:19, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

No problem. I understand how these things are. Jumping the gun and rushing to false conclusions only makes hot heads and steeled tempers, so the whole debate turns into an honor fight or resembles two brick walls communicating with each other. I definitely see the inconsistencies with shielding here. Perhaps the supercruiser was already suffering from decreased shield output so it took less force to breach them?

Based on the Archer's specifications and relative 'advancement' of human warfare technology and such, I would say the Archer has a pretty low yield, at least when compared to a MAC. But there could be some other factor in here not mentioned already: chemistry. Perhaps the chemical properties of the various warheads and MAC rounds create different situations for the Covenant shielding, so a nuclear warhead could deal more damage to a shield simply because its reacting causes additional strain on the shield. Conversely, the MAC could cause some chemistry to weaken the shielding, dealing more damage than other firepower.

By the way, if you are familiar with the Romluan Warbird (pretty sure that's it), its most destructive weapon is somewhere on the order of a 52 terawatt beam. Now I don't know how that stacks up to a 1.17 teraton blast yield, but the Warbird is MASSIVE and I would suspect it is because it needs so much machinery to sustain a beam of that wattage. Just throwing it out there. As such, I am led to believe that the propensity for a ship the size of the POA using a single weapon with a 9+ teraton yield, considering how the most powerful nuke ever devised doesn't even begin to compare, is very, very low. A teraton output seems out of proportions, considering how in the 26th century, humanity still drives on wheels and still fires metal at supersonic speeds as their primary weaponry. Sure other advances have been made, but I would think that if we have AI that are practically sentient then we should have more phaser-like technology and hovercars.

PS: don't forget to watch your capitalization. Covenant should be capitalized.   ΘяɪɸɴF22    Me    Talk    Contributions    CAG   18:41, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I am familiar with the Romulan ship, presumably you refer to the D'deridex class warbirds, which are, at least based on the designer's intentions, approximately 1300 meters long, larger than most any UNSC ship, slightly smaller than a Covenant destroyer. Fifty-two terawatts is nowhere even CLOSE to 1.17 teratons, as the Tsar Bomba was 5.4 YOTTAWATTS in power output (for reference, tera is 10^12, yotta is 10^24). So there we have it, technology in Trek is far more advanced, yet somehow the halo weapons are tremendously more powerful? I think we can conclude that the MAC yield is improbable. Quakeomaniac 18:54, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Also, your idea about chemistry is rather interesting. I always looked at energy shields in any universe as just an energy vs energy concept. In halo though, we see plasma weapons doing more damage to shields, and your reasoning of chemistry (could be physics too), makes sense to account for the difference. If you have any more thoughts on chemistry and shields, please toss them out there. I don't know that chemistry can account for a huge huge difference in nuclear and MAC yield, but it could be helpful nonetheless. Quakeomaniac 19:06, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I used to see shielding as energy vs. energy, or rather a form of energy that was 'solidified' to withstand/absorb other forms of energy on impact. As such, I viewed a shield as a simple solid geometric plane encapsulating a vessel, and was neither penetrable nor malleable. However, hearing how the Covenant shielding was penetrated in a specific area, and recounting various other accounts of buckling shielding and whatnot, my outlook on the standard model of vessel-based shielding has changed. Perhaps the shielding is generated by oscillating specific frequencies around the ship. These frequencies could interact with various types of energy to produce a shielding effect by either neutralizing the incoming energy, or reducing its bite. This setup could potentially allow for many different things to enter an exit the space surrounding a vessel freely, while at the same time blocking damaging energy. If this is the case, then chemistry is more than likely a major component in shield design.

We see that MJOLNIR shields are easily depleted by sustained plasma fire, and a charged plasma pistol shot wipes them out, no matter how strong. This definitely implies some chemical workings here. For an overcharged shot to completely neutralize an overshield, yet have a much smaller effect as a single shot means that the shields could be overloaded by a high amount of plasma impacting at one moment. This could have some chemical interaction between the shields and plasma. My theory is that shields can neutralize as small amount of incoming plasma, but still allow some of it to reduce the shield integrity. If too much plasma impacts at one moment, then the shield cannot neutralize enough for the plasma to overwhelm the integrity and collapse it.

Now that is not chemistry right there, but chemical interaction could easily occur between the shields (or energy frequencies) and, say, a NOVA bomb. I believe that a MAC round, being a pure kinetic weapon, does not interact with the Covenant shielding in any way other than busting through it. If anything, the speed of the round could create some as-of-yet undiscovered (or unmentioned) form energy to collect up, similar to how a bullet bunches up the air in front of it as it travels. As this bunching of energy nears the shields, it could cause the frequencies or shielding to thin out (or likewise thicken up). A NOVA bomb could work in the same way, and could also create interactions by detonating. The nuclear blast and radiation could interact with the shielding in a detrimental way.

And as if all that wasn't enough, it may also be possible that the shielding only stops more conventional forms of energy, i.e. kinetic, nuclear, light, etc., but may actually act as a semipermeable membrane and allow other forms of energy, possibly those generated form a NOVA blast, to pass through. These forms of energy could interact with whatever it is that produces the shielding and corrupt their integrity.

Whew, this is fun. Lots of stuff to consider when one examines an event analytically and scientifically haha.   ΘяɪɸɴF22    Me    Talk    Contributions    CAG   20:25, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Hah, yeah you make a great point here, I also enjoy looking at a fictional technology in a scientific way. Who knows, could tell us how it works one day. Interesting though how we went more from a MAC discussion to a shield/star trek (what with the frequencies) discussion though, but it's no problem. I was looking at the energy shield talk page earlier, and RelentlessRecusant posted a neat bit on shield physics, and he made some points that are similar to what you're saying. Would be nice to get him to read over this discussion. You can flip over to that and read it real quick if you want, tell me what you think. The concept on plasma pistols makes good sense, as does the idea of allowing some things (i.e EM energy from shipboard sensors) to pass freely in and out of the shield, while damaging energy (i.e the ships plasma torpedoes) can't, as we see it drop parts of the shield to fire. I can't disagree with what you've said, as it sounds good, and I like the thought in it. Quakeomaniac 21:04, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Will check it out. However, the overall values of MAC yields still remain unsolved. I did see that they were changed to the gigaton level again, which is more reasonable but perhaps too high. I would need more specific examples of MAC and NOVAs being used in combat to formulate a working hypothesis, as I have not read any of the books (wish I owned them).   ΘяɪɸɴF22    Me    Talk    Contributions    CAG   22:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Definitely recommend reading the books, they're great. Haven't read them all myself, but I have read the Nylund novels. I would concur that a gigaton range is still quite a bit too high. I personally feel that anything higher than the very low megaton range is too much, because I'm using HORNET mines as my estimate for the upper limit of the typical Covenant ship (essentially anything but the most powerful vessels i.e assault or supercarriers) shields. One nuclear detonation on the scale of 30 megatons, the yield of the mines, will drop, or come close to dropping, the ships' shields. Now, maybe the EMP effect of nuclear detonations has an effect here, but I can't see it being so huge that a MAC would need teratons of energy to compensate for the lack of the EMP effect. Thus, based on the common occurence of two to three MAC shells to break a shield, and the fact that a nuke in space won't direct anywhere near all its energy upon a single ship, I conclude that the likely yield of a MAC is somewhere in the mid to high kiloton range. But as you said, it's an unsolved mystery. Quakeomaniac 03:18, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

After reading your response above, a new theory came to mind. Since a MAC round is purely kinetic, that force could easily be sustained, absorbed, or dispersed, at least somewhat. So my hypothesis is that Covenant shields are able to absorb a significant degree of kinetic energy, but they can only sustain so much. If a MAC round were to possess teratons of kinetic energy, perhaps teratons were absorbed, but a few kilo- or gigatons were leftover, and these penetrated the shields, making a few MAC rounds comparable to NOVA bombs, HORNET mines, and such. This explains why the UNSC would need a weapon with such a high yield, but leaves the question of how unanswered.   ΘяɪɸɴF22    Me    Talk    Contributions    CAG   05:32, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Ok.... I'm not 100% sure I follow you on this one. If I'm reading what you said correctly, you're theorizing that the shield is simply extremely effective against kinetic impact, but against something such as electromagnetic radiation (x-rays and gamma rays and the like) released from a nuclear explosion, they can't withstand it as well? This also makes me wonder, based on this... the book seems to indicate that a vessel's shields are split into multiple sections (as we see both Cortana aboard the Ascendant Justice and 'Mantakree's officers aboard the Incorruptible indicate certain portions of the shield failed), and a MAC round directs maximum energy over minimum surface