Editing Talk:Ghosts of Halo

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'''When reporting a ghost sighting, please mention:'''
*The map you were playing on
*What the ghost looked like
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And please remember that '''random events (like vehicles falling out of the sky, or Wraith mortars being fired from nowhere) ''are not Ghosts of Halo. They are ''random'', ''irrelevant'' phenomena.'''''
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{{Archived|multi=Archives: [[/Archive|1]] • [[/Archive 2|2]]}}

==Okay, so let's get down to business...==

'''With the recent controversy in the article, the time has come to rethink the concepts of the ''Ghosts of Halo'', and come to an agreement on what the article should include. I would like to start with the definition of these Ghosts.'''


'''This is the definition I came up with. It may seem a bit long, but it fits perfectly, and don't think it will matter if it is one or two sentences. It's a definition. It gets the point across clearly. It'll work. Anyway, here it is:'''

*''Ghost of Halo is a term referring to a type of glitch found in Halo 2 and (unconfirmed) Halo 3. This glitch usually takes the form of a player model and has many strange qualities, such as moving about the stage erratically and in a strange, sliding motion, and acting hostile towards other players for no apparent reason.''


'''I think this definition will be fine. But then there is the problem of False Ghosts and Half Ghosts, which by the way, aren't as ridiculous as you may think. They are common concepts used widely by ghost hunters and Halo players, so they can't be ''that'' ridiculous. In fact, creating these even helped to organize the Ghost section more, and if you were active here in the days when this type of thing was discussed commonly, you would know how bad it was before this. But the whole False Ghost thing will be added into the definition later if needed, but for now let's just focus on the general definition.'''

{{Halopedian|Spydr, the Ghostbuster}}

:Ah, but the Ghosts seen in ''Halo 3''<nowiki/>'s Blackout and Sandtrap are indeed Ghosts. With the exception of their vulnerability and the latter's inactivity, they possess ''all'' of the traits that are associated with ''Halo 2'' Ghosts. This, as well as the fact that we have video evidence of the Blackout and Pink Sandtrap Ghosts, means that the glitch is not unconfirmed in ''Halo 3''.
:So vulnerability is the only ''consistently'' observed difference, the only difference that separates ''all'' ''Halo 2'' Ghosts from ''all'' ''Halo 3'' Ghosts. Now, some may say, "''Halo 3'' uses a different engine than ''Halo 2'' -- how can it have the same glitches?" Well, the ''code'' may be new, but things are probably done the same basic way. It's like how a newer car may have a more efficient engine than an older one, but that engine (probably) runs the same basic way. So the network-related code for ''Halo 3'' (assuming that lag is indeed the reason these Ghosts appear) may be different from ''Halo 2'', but if it's doing things the same basic way, then it may be prone to the same glitch (or similar glitches). So a new game engine isn't necessarily free from ''all'' the glitches that may have plagued the old one.
:Second of all, the False/Half Ghosts aren't ridiculous as much as they are... unrelated. As I previously stated, they are random phenomena, lag, or hoaxes (more likely the latter two). Most of the "False Ghosts" are bizarre events -- almost always, they take the form of objects (Wraith mortars, scenery, vehicles, gunshots, you name it) appearing from thin air. While both Ghosts of Halo and these so-called "False Ghosts" are weird and potentially lethal, there is no ''actual'' connection whatsoever. Neither the behaviors of these glitches (altered players versus random spawns) nor their appearances have any relation -- that is to say, the glitches "act" totally differently, and the appearance of a Ghost of Halo does not affect the likelihood of a random object spawning (or vice versa).
:To further repeat my statements, False Ghosts aren't necessarily "homicidal" as well. (To those who don't know what I mean: a lot of False Ghosts involve objects spawning in midair, and only falling when someone walks underneath, so people think they're related to Ghosts because both are purportedly homicidal.) The game's physics engine (both games' physics engines, I guarantee it) perform a very common optimization: if an object is left alone for a few seconds (five or seven in ''Halo 3''), physics stop being calculated for it until something collides with it or until it moves of its own accord. Let's use a [[Forge/Tricks#Floating Objects|floating player]] as an example. In Forge, you can have a player jump onto a crate and keep perfectly still for five or seven seconds, and then delete the crate. Now, physics stopped being calculated for that player; deleting the crate doesn't cause anything to touch the player, and the player has not moved of their own accord, so physics will not start being calculated for them again -- meaning they will float in the air, as they are effectively "immune" to gravity. Walk too close to them, however, and they may suddenly fall -- because you'll hit their collision hulls, prompting physics to be calculated for them, so gravity gets calculated and they drop. Now take this scenario and replace the player with a Mongoose. A curious battler sees the 'Goose floating in the air, runs over to check it, and touches (or even just gets close to) its collision hull; 'Goose falls for no ''apparent'' reason and kills the player; due to lack of an ''apparent'' reason, people think the 'Goose was homicidal.
:There's also the technicality that Ghosts don't seem to be homicidal for no reason. The Ghosts of Lockout and Blackout were hostile because the matches were free-for-all Slayer -- the objective for players, and therefore for the Ghosts, was simply to kill everybody in sight. There have been unconfirmed accounts of Ghosts that have actually ended up in team games ''on teams'', and such Ghosts have only been reported to attack the other team, because that's the objective of the match. (Though there have been some reports of teamless Ghosts in team games as well.) Some Ghosts are inactive or behave oddly; the Pink Ghost of Sandtrap never moved in its confirmed sighting, and I remember one account of an incident where the First Ghost of Sandtrap walked right in front of a moving, shooting Scorpion, stared right at it, and just stopped, as if oblivious to the tank's presence and its continued attacks.
:So the "False Ghost" classification may indeed have organized the article (and I, along with many others, appreciate that organization, as from what I've heard it was quite needed). The issue, though, is that it may have organized irrelevant information. There is the further issue that the information may not even be verifiable -- as I've stated previously, there are many ways to create fake but bizarre phenomena, and any of these phenomena could reasonably claimed to be a "False Ghost".
:There is the possibility, though, that there actually are phenomena that aren't Ghosts but are related to them. That is to say, while the current concept of a "False Ghost" may be too inclusive, there could actually be some glitches that are connected to Ghosts. I really only have the information presented in the article and its sources, and the way you've presented your ideas, to go on. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>File:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 19:43, September 16, 2009 (UTC)



'''First of all, about the Ghost of Sandtrap ad the Ghost of Blackout... What makes me question the idea that they are real ghosts is the fact that they really do not have as much supporting evidence as the Ghost of Lockout did. If you read the description in the original video of the Ghost of Lockout, you will see plenty evidence. First of all, modding the old maps over Xbox Live (which, the match was clearly over Xbox Live) wasn't possible at the time the video was made, about a year before it was seen on YouTube (so it appeared sometime in 2005, possibly summer). Plus, mods like that at the time would cause the game to crash and be unplayable. I'm just taking form the descripiton of the video. Now if you decide to argue the description, you are basically saying that the Ghost of Lockout was a fake, and if that's true, then there really is no point in all this discussion.'''


'''Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Halo 3 it IS possible to mod a spartan and take away it's walking animations and other things that make it a ghost. And with no proof that it wasn't modded (which was provided in the Ghost of Lockout Video), we really can't tell if they are real.'''


'''On to the next segment: False/Half Ghosts. Basically, False Ghosts are NOT Ghosts, but people often flood the forums or rush to YouTube to make their "ghostly encounters" known, and a lot of the time, these aren't the real ghosts we know of. But is a Starfish a fish? No, but we call it a STARFISH anyway. I realize it was renamed to Sea Star, but honestly, do you here anybody really calling it that? And Fool's Gold. It's not Gold, but people THINK it's gold, so therefore, it is called Gold, even though it is nothing like gold besides the color. In the same way, a FALSE GHOST is NOT a ghost, but many people mistake it for being a ghost, so It's a FALSE ghost, like FOOL's Gold and a starFISH.'''


'''The second thing about False Ghosts: I have learned that disregarding everyone's "ghostly encounters" because it isn't a real ghost isn't as easy as it seems. People don't like it when you tell them their ghost was nothing at all. It makes people leave, then the Ghost community isn't as active, and there is no more point to having one anyway. I made a lot of enemies by doing the thing you are trying to do. So, I compromised. I created False Ghosts and Half Ghosts to give people here a sense of pride that they discovered something, BUT, I also made it clear to them that their discovery was not a real ghost, don't worry. I may try and do something abut the Half Ghost, but until then, please, don't completely get rid of it all. It's been a part of the community for so long and it keeps people coming. Without it, you can just forget this place. When I was here a while ago, the place was so lively... now... there isn't a soul in sight besides you and me. I want to see the ghost comunity here revived, but ridding of the False Ghost and True Ghost concept won't help that.'''


'''Finally, I want to conclude with this... It's all for fun. People here are genuinely intrigued by the Ghosts of Halo as if they were real scepters haunting their gaming consoles. While it is plenty obvious that this isn't really the case, people like to think this way, its how the Ghost of Lockout got so much attention in the first place. I realize the falling mongooses were only "homicidal" because of the game's physics, and the Ghosts are required to follow the game objective, but think about it: What started the big hype in the first place? Bringing too much technicality into the ghost concept will just ruin in, it ultimately takes the fun out of it. We all know what you say is true, but its a freaking video game. It's played for enjoyment and people want to enjoy all it's concepts, and when something mysterious and (almost) unexplainable like the Ghosts of Halo come around, it helps people enjoy the game even more. But if you try to bring too much technicality into the subject, it really ruins all the fun.'''


'''Please, just let this article go back to the way it used to be. The place was so much more lively when people could have fun with the subject, and seeing the state of it now, I can't help but think that it's the technicality that was enforced on this place that began to drive people away. I conclude with, it's a game. Don't try to enforce to much of your technicality on it, it only sucks up the fun, which will ultimately screw this place over, and I've had too much fun with some of the people here to stand to see that happen.'''

{{Halopedian|Spydr, the Ghostbuster}}

I do agree with you that the article does seem a bit... hollow, a bit too impersonal. I do agree with you that people are less interested in this -- and other -- glitches, and that that's a bad thing. I do agree with you that this article needs more of a human touch. I'll get to that real quick.

About the doubts toward ''Halo 3'' Ghosts... The only additional evidence you've mentioned is that modding wasn't feasible when Lockout was filmed. Modding could've been involved for Blackout, but we can't prove that it was. Furthermore, the Pink Ghost of Sandtrap wasn't modded -- one of the REFs in this article is an actual Film that you can snag off of Bungie.net and view on a legit copy of ''Halo 3''. Moving on:

I guess we can discuss False Ghosts in the article, but we should take care to mention that there is no proven connection between False Ghosts and Ghosts. While False Ghosts might not actually be Ghosts, I think you're right about there being an undeniable association -- not an actual connection, but an association in people's minds. People consider the two to be related. So whether or not they actually are, it may indeed be prudent to cover False Ghosts here. We should take care not to sacrifice accuracy, though -- we should mention that no actual connection (such as shared programming code or a definite cause) has been found between the two, and that a lot of False Ghosts can be easily faked, but despite that, False Ghosts are still kinda "ghostly", in how they happen. Though False Ghosts are explainable and can mostly be demonstrated to have no connection, it seems that a player's first instinct is to consider the two related, because they both behave in what seem to be similar ways. Know what I'm sayin'?

So perhaps we can change "False Sightings" to "Similar Phenomena", and have that section start off as something like: "There are a variety of similar phenomena that have been seen in ''Halo 2'' and ''Halo 3''. Such bizarre happenings are often referred to as "'''false ghosts'''", due to their "ghostly" nature..."

Now, I understand that you want to keep the concept interesting for others; that's a good aim. I personally share some similar views. I remember that years ago, there were tons of websites devoted to game glitches -- and I do mean ''tons''. There was System Crash, David Wonn's site was a ''huge'' repository of glitches, and there was PokeGlitch, Prof. Glitch's Lab... Lots of them. Lots. But there's been an unfortunate trend -- I don't think I would be wrong in saying that nearly every glitch site on the Internet has died or become inactive or defunct. People are just less interested in glitches than they used to be, and that sucks. It used to be, there were tons of people that didn't necessarily consider glitches interesting because they were useful, or because they were tricky -- people just liked glitches because they were weird. Falling through walls and seeing "ghost" players was cool. But now... It just seems like less people think that way, and that sucks.

At the same time, though, we have to remember that this wiki is for presenting facts in a factual manner. Now, I'm not saying that we have to write like soulless, inhuman drones. I've slipped in small bits of humor into articles. I added the Bungie.net quote that's in [[Flying Elephant]] -- I liked the humorous tone to it. It basically restates what's been described, but in a more lighthearted tone -- the quote provides no new (important) information at all, but its general tone just makes the article better. It hasn't been taken out, so I guess other editors seem to agree. There was also one time where I was rewriting a glitch article, where the article title described the glitch quite well. In the intro, I added my typical one-sentence summary of what the glitch did, and then added, "as the glitch's name so subtly implies" -- a little friendly sarcasm (or sardonism?) for a small bit of humor. (I'll admit, that's not much -- I'm not a comedian...)

So we can try to maybe liven up the tone a bit, make it sound more human. I still think we should discuss the Half/False Ghost concept just a bit more, to find out exactly how we can cover it in this article while remaining mostly accurate, but in the meantime I think things can be done to make the article a bit less... impersonal. I have an idea of where to start: I think we should try to find some way to cover ghost hunting communities better. Perhaps a section ("Ghost hunting communities" or "Player reactions" or something) could be written, to describe how people have reacted and investigated this phenomenon. That would be the best way to add a human side to the story, by discussing... well, humans. And it would also provide a valuable perspective on the issue, and make it easier to cover additional theories about Ghosts, their causes, and their operation. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>File:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 02:02, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


'''Thanks for understanding, and some of your ideas sound great. But about False/Half Ghosts... I think it is necessary to imply that these ghosts do not have any real relation with "True Ghosts" like you suggested, but they should still remain as a sort of classification for ghosts. Like you said, these glitches aren't related, but people associate False/Half Ghosts with True Ghosts in their minds, due to the way the "ghosts" behave. At the same time though, I will definitely make sure to clarify that there is no proven connection. And if you don't mind, I would like to take care of the "Classifications" section of the article.'''


'''I would like to clarify that False Ghosts don't represent any old glitch that happens in the game. People used to come here and tell about things like random bubble shields or mysterious blips on their radar and claim they were ghosts. Of course, we didn't let that go by. Those definitely aren't ghosts, just glitches, and we wanted people to understand that. False Ghosts are things like this that attempt to kill your player (whether it is because of the games physics or not), and this is because people associate the ghosts with killing and evil and mysterious behavior, which something like falling mongooses does possess, even though it only happens due to the games physics. Just thought I should clarify that, make sure you knew I wasn't letting any old glitch pass by as a Ghost.'''


'''Oh, and by the way, that falling Mongooses ghost was proven to be true a while ago. I don't have a video or anything, but you'll have to track down the discoverer of the ghost, Bacon11 (Cayman192 is his username on Halopedia).'''


'''Now about the definition: Would this work? I edited my previous one just a bit:'''

*''Ghost of Halo'' is a term referring to a type of glitch found in Halo 2 and Halo 3. The glitch often takes the form of a player model and has many strange qualities, including moving about the map erratically, lack of walking and turning animations, and in some cases, invulnerability.


'''This definition should work. Know that I implied that the qualities mentioned were not the ''only'' qualities of the Ghosts and the Ghosts don't necessarily have to possess these qualities, these are just examples. I took out the (unconfirmed) part because the Pink Ghost of Sandtrap seems viable, and it wouldn't really matter much anyway. What do you think about the definition?'''

{{Halopedian|Spydr, the Ghostbuster}}

So I have four basic responses.
*That definition does sound quite a bit like the article's current intro.
*Minor issue with the wording: "Ghost of Halo is a term..." Does Wikipedia's article on cats start off with, "Cat is a term..."? :P Technically, "Ghost of Halo" and "Cat" are terms, but to define them as terms would be kind of a meta-definition, a definition of a definition... Know what I'm saying?
*I'm a little hesitant about changing things like the tone of most of the article... Yes, it's a ''little'' dull, but people come here for factual details presented with a neutral point of view -- as a wiki on Wikia, a lot of people have the expectation that we present things professionally and in a technical manner, and I think that a lot of the tone, while dull, does that. I ''do'' feel that the article is a bit impersonal, but I think that relates more to its content. I dunno, I'm just completely unsure about what, if anything, to do with the tone...
*Should we start an additional section on how we should cover ghost hunting communities and player reactions in general? It could help when coordinating the gathering and evaluation of sources (for use in REF tags).
<span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>File:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 01:27, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


'''I'll remove the "term" part, but I just feel that mine sounds a bit more... professional, if you know what I mean, and I would like to use it. And this new section, is it like a list of proven ghost sightings and specific players/groups that made the discoveries? I feel this would be a great addition, it leaves all of that junk out of the main points of the article, it kind of clutters it up. Moving all of that to a different section would work well.'''

{{Halopedian|Spydr, the Ghostbuster}}

Ironically, I feel the same way about ''my'' definition. :P As for the new section, I was thinking it could be a history of ghost hunting and communities. Like, what groups did what when, in chronological order. And stuff like that. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>File:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 04:01, September 19, 2009 (UTC)



'''Ah, understood about the new section. We could title it something like ''Ghost Hunters/Groups''. I think it needs to be some sort of "bibliography" type thing, with the name of the ghost encounter, a small description, and a description of who discovered it and other discoveries. For example, a sub-section would be "The Ghost of Lockout" and we would tell a bit about Anti Noob and maybe Underdogg, and some additional information that is more related to THEM during the encounter rather than the ghost. Then we have a few other sub-sections naming ghost hunting groups and their discoveries and a bit of backgroun information. That is what I'm sort of envisioning.'''


'''But about the definition. The reason I feel mine is a bit more professional is because the word "glitchy" seems a bit unnecessary, when you can just call the ghost a glitch. Second of all, the phrase "during Multiplayer Maps," doesn't make much sense (maybe it was supposed to be "during Multiplayer Matches"?). But maybe we could combine them a bit, to make them look more like this:'''

*A Ghost of Halo is a type of glitch found in Halo 2 and Halo 3. This glitch often takes the form of a player model and tends to spawn out of nowhere during Multiplayer matches and has many strange qualities, such as moving erratically about the map, lack of walking and turning animations, and in some cases, invulnerability.


'''Would this definition work? Basically, I just want to help clarify to readers that it isn't only "glitchy", but it is a glitch itself, a glitch that usually takes the form of a player model (a spartan), and also include a few noted qualities of ghosts.'''

{{Halopedian|Spydr, the Ghostbuster}}



==How's it going in the world of Cyber-ghost hunting?==

'''Spydr again, don't know why but I started a new section for this topic, hope no one minds... But anyway, what discoveries have been made during my hiatus? Any ghosts that have been proven true? This seems extremely unlikely, considering the only viable True Ghost sighting so far seems to be the Ghost of Lockout. But, you never know. Usually we get quite a few False Ghost sightings, so what's going on there? And once again, if anybody was affiliated with Bacon11 and his ghost hunting group, if you could fill me in on your findings that would be great.'''

{{Halopedian|Spydr, the Ghostbuster}}

:Found a YouTube video of a valid ghost on ''Halo 3''<nowiki/>'s [[Blackout (Level)|Blackout]], as well as a File Share video (which was also uploaded to YouTube) showing