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Canonholes in Reach

Anyone read The Fall of Reach, and then played the game and just got seriously confused by the fact that:

The Covenant suddenly has new and never before seen weapons and techonologies like teleportation and massive stealth + cloaking fields? A new and what-would-be useless version of a Banshee Banshee's and Seraphs can exit and enter slipspace without any kinds of damages. The whole thing with the Assault Carrier on Reach makes no sense. It would have been destroyed in seconds by Reach's oribtal MAC-guns. The Sangheili's drastic change in style. Random and impossibly-canon UNSC weapons.

The list can go on for ages and ages.

I also personally found this website when googling around on this subject, quite interesting if you ask me: http://www.haloreachisnotcanon.net/

Atlas Tasume 19:34 (GMT +1) 4th March 2011

Teleportation=Yes, they've had it. Cloaking=Of Course! Banshees and Seraphs=Impulse Drive and reinforced structure. And you don't MAC something that is bigger than the nearby cities and probably would crush some major population centers, not to mention the fact that the projectile alone would cause near global extinction. The elites have changed before as well, in Halo Wars and Halo 3, and if anybody has the right to change them it's Bungie. And yes, I have read all at Haloreachisnotcanon.net before and it is pretty clear to me that they are missing the point on A LOT of their arguments. Really, none of the above are any drastic changes. And some are just updates. Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 14:10, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Explain the MAC-shot shooting the tiny Covenant Corvette in the Reach campaign.

Teleportation: No. The gravutythrone used Halo's teleportationgrid. Impossible without an Instalation.

Active camoflage of course! But never on that scale! And that does NOT hide thermal, radio and radioactive signals, nor motion or normal radar.

As for the Banshee's and Serahps, see the part of one of the Halo-books where you have the Spartan-team's atempt at launching the Spirit-dropship out from slipspace, and the comments made around it. The game neglected this part.

And of course the elite could change from Halo 2 to 3, before/after the Great Schism. And as for Halo Wars, lack of cooperation between Bungie and Ensamble Studios created their look there.

And to add to the list, the sudden random dissapearance of the SPI armour for Spartan-IIIs and the addition of the randomised Reach armours.

The supposed "testversion" of the Battlerifle seen in Halo 2 and 3, according to Reach it's the DMR. But then why did Sgt. Johnson have a BattleRifle in Contact Harvest? The same issue goes for the Assault Rifle MA5B, and its "supposed" precessor in Reach. The MA5B was used in Halo Wars, Contact Harvest etc, both taking place before Reach.

Please dont jump to conclusions, of course Bungie can change the games. But that breaks the Canon. They are drastic canon-breakers.

Atlas Tasume 20:19 4th March 2011 GMT +1

1) Sword Base was very important, so the UNSC didn't want the information contained within to fall into the hands of the Covenant. They chose to destroy the corvette with a MAC slug fired at low velocity.

2 & 3) Nothing ever said they didn't have that technology. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

4) It's true that Covenant single ships are ordinarily not capable of emerging from slipspace. However, the Covenant are more than capable of reinforcing their vessels to survive the transition from slipspace. *EDIT* I'm with Roberthaha and Vergerot on this one; I don't think the Banshees, Seraphs, and Phantoms were utilizing slipspace at all. The radio operator on Anchor 9 warns about impulse drive signatures being detected seconds before the Seraphs appear. They would not have been able to detect said signatures if the vessels were in slipspace, as they wouldn't have time to retrieve and analyze a slipspace probe like those used by remote sensing outposts. Thus, Occam's Razor would indicate that the craft were using impulse drive rather than slipspace.

5) The aesthetic changes in Halo Wars were to make the Elites more realistic and dangerous-looking, as are the changes in Reach. There was no "lack of cooperation" between Bungie and Ensemble. People say that when they want an excuse to complain about Halo Wars.

6) a) The members of Noble Team were far more important than ordinary SPARTAN-IIIs. They received MJOLNIR so they could perform mission along the lines of those perfomed by the SPARTAN-IIs. b) I assume you're talking about the armor worn by the dead SPARTANs in Lone Wolf. The randomized armor is a very minor and negligible part of the game; it doesn't defy canon in any way.

7) No one ever said the M392 was a "test version" of the BR55. The M392 was the predecessor to the BR55. After the BR55 was introduced, the Army continued to use the M392. Similarly, the MA37 is not a predecessor to the MA5; it's a different weapon in the same series.

Reach doesn't introduce any canon holes. It only expands the canon. In fact, being the latest game in the series, it is the supreme source of canon. If you want to complain about it, take it to a forum. This isn't the place. --"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson 15:13, 4 March 2011 (EST)

If you destroy the phantoms before the seraphs they will leave in the same way they entered so its probably not slipspace.--Roberthaha 15:23, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Let me just say this, now listen clearly: == BUNGIE IS THE CANON. == WHATEVER THEY SAY IS WHAT HAPPENED. BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CANON. SO IF YOU SAY THAT BUNGIE ISN'T CANON THEN WHAT IS?!

Just adding on to the conversation here:

1) Sword Base was compromised, Admiral Whitcomb decided the to hit two birds with one stone (or in this case, with one 3000-ton ferric-tungsten round) by enacting Cole Protocol (NVM, Cole Protocol would have been done long before hand) and taking out the Corvette with one shot.

2) If Regret had access to the Ring's Teleportation Grid, he would have teleported himself halfway across the ring as soon as John broke in. So it is a Forerunner short-range teleportation device.

3) Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

4) Impulse Drives are definitely not Slipstream Space drives. They probably just send them REALLY fast.

6) I have my own little theory. I believe that Noble team, along with all the other SPARTAN-IIIs on Reach. Were large Headhunter teams. Which would explain everything. I could actually right a whole post just about that (and I have, took me about half an hour, then my Computer crashed and I was too frustrated after that to type it up again).

7) No, the test version was the one used by Sergeant Johnson. And no-one ever said that the DMR and the BR are related. I believe that they are just different weapons.

8) Bungie can't break the Canon, because it is their canon, so they decide what's done. If you want to believe that, then go ahead. Halo is an imaginary universe, no one can tell you how and how-not to picture your universe. I also have a bunch of imaginations that are nowhere close to canon, and they even contradict some of the most basic facts of the Halo Universe. But the difference between you and me is that I don't post those things on Halopedia. Halopedia is for facts, so you come here and put the Facts; and the facts are that Bungie is always right and old stuff imposes new stuff. So imagine what you want to imagine (in fact I encourage you to, because someone who only believes what Bungie and 343 Industries says and never veers off from the canon is an ass-hat), but don't put it here. It sounds like you would be good for the Halo Fanon Wikia. As it is in between Fan Fiction and Canon. Vegerot (talk) 17:27, 4 March 2011 (EST) (I think we should start putting our signatures before we post, don't you think?!)

I realise most of the points have been addressed, but I thought I'd add my two cents.

1. This "MAC in orbit" debate seems a relic of the Halo Wars debates, and my answer is the same here as it is there - the force a kinetic projectile imparts is based on its mass and velocity. It's not inconceivable that the UNSC uses lower-velocity shots that impart enough kinetic energy to smash a Covenant corvette, but not enough to crack the planet's crust apart. Using the full force would be a tremendous waste anyway. At the least, they may have orbiting kinetic satellites for the expressed purpose of reactive orbital bombardment. We know that at least frigate-grade MAC weapons in atmosphere is a big deal, from Jorge's reaction, but why would the UNSC use weapons that produce so much collateral damage, when they need pinpoint precision?
2. We've never seen any conclusive statement that it was only because they were on a Halo. Presumably the Prophets have many ways of protecting themselves - whether they understand the technology fully or not. I understand it to be using slipspace to "shunt" the teleportee to where they need to be, rather than particle disassembly and reassembly ala stereotypical teleportation, and the Covenant have a mastery of slipspace that humanity does not.
3. We've seen corvettes camouflage. We assumed that was the theoretical limit of size a ship could be and camouflaged. Nothing has said that this was true. It contradicts nothing.
4. The Banshees and Seraphs aren't entering slipspace, nor are they going faster than light. They're simply accelerating faster than the human eye can follow. I'm sure the UNSC fighters are capable of the same feats - having space fighters at all would be redundant if they couldn't.
5. The Elites were made to look more like the Halo: CE version, which I thought was a great move. The Elite's haven't been the same since they were hunched forward in Halo 2, and the taller profile is visually more intimidating, for me at least. The aesthetic differences in Halo Wars were from reinterpretation - they wanted the Elites to look mean, and they succeeded. I like both looks. In the end, it's interpretation.
6. Noble is explicitly the exception to the rules. Most S-III's still aren't quite up to S-II standards, even if they're still far superior to regular soldiers/Marines, and are capable of using MJOLNIR. The members of Noble have the same genetic profile as the S-II's, and were therefore reassigned so they wouldn't be wasted on kamikaze missions. Again, no contradiction. As for the armour - what's wrong with customisation? Different armour components have different properties, and even in war a soldier wants to personalise what is his/hers. It happened in Vietnam. I'm sure it probably happens today. If anyone wants to correct me on this, feel free.
7. Who ever said the M392 and the BR55 were even the same series? The DMR is much earlier, and is being replaced by the BR55. That doesn't make it the "test version", it makes it the BR55's predecessor. And notice that Halo Wars and Contact Harvest were based on a Marine perspective - the Army uses different materiel. The two branches have different requirements, different acquisition methods and aims, so it makes sense that their arsenals differ a little. I'd be surprised if they didn't.
8. You can't "Break" Canon. You can only add to it. Sometimes you need to modify some bits, clarify others, in the form of retcons, ie the dates of the Fall of Reach. But the only thing that can "break" it would be something major, ie; saying that the Master Chief is a enlisted as a Marine and was made a Spartan later, when we have so many other sources stating otherwise. That's an example of something that completely ignores the canon. Bungie didn't take the Halo Bible and throw it out the window. They looked through it, selected what they wanted to keep, partitioned others that they wanted to modify, and set to work.
9. I'm sorry, but this just seems like a huge overreaction. I'm not blaming you specifically for it, because its one a lot of fans share. But I think TV Tropes perfectly summarises this kind of thing. -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 23:51, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Vegerot (talk) 20:19, 5 March 2011 (EST)While we have pretty much given him a good talking to on the technological portion of this. The big thing that I don't know is the timeline. Like the Pillar of Autumn landing. Or Gamma Station (or wherever they saw the big blob from one of the probes and blew themselves up) knowing about the Covenant yet apparently Noble Team was 1st, and then alerted FLEET COMMAND. Again, I'm not trying to be like Atlas and claim that this isn't canon. I'm just asking.

Essentially, The Fall of Reach claimed that the planet was invaded in one day (a ridiculous proposition when you think of the logistics that would require), and that the rest of the campaign, well into September, was just guerrilla holdouts and desperate breaks through enemy lines. Reach stretches things out a bit, with a small expeditionary taskforce to pave the way arriving in July, skirmishes around their footholds in Viery, and then the arrival of an entire Covenant fleet, which matches with the FoR's events, retconning it so that these are reinforcements rather than the initial invasion. The Spartans, whose viewpoint we're given, don't know that this is a follow-up effort because they weren't told - their preparations for Operation: RED FLAG were too important to distract them with details like the battle for their home, and Halsey needed their minds focussed 100% on the mission. As for the Pillar of Autumn, we know that by the time it's cradled on Reach the Master Chief has already been taken back aboard - the cryotube is either him or, I think more likely, Linda. This is a brief stop, the recover part of Cortana, after which they head off to Alpha Halo.

Does that answer everything? -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 05:09, 6 March 2011 (EST)

Vegerot (talk) 12:32, 6 March 2011 (EST): Yeah, the only thing that I don't get now is Cortana. Because I read Dr. Halsey's Journal yet it doesn't make sense. Because if Halsey wanted the PoA to have the full Cortana then they would have had Cortana. If she wanted to keep part of Cortana, then she would have not asked NOBLE to retrieve her. Also, is it right to assume that ONI didn't create the SPARTAN-III variant of MJOLNIR with the Memory-processor superconductor layer, because that was almost half the cost of the armor. Also, Cortana could have just changed herself (as in updating her calculations, like in the Fall of Reach, when she says "in fact, now I have just made it a 98 percent chance") like she did with John-117 to speed SPARTAN-B312's reflexes and provide support in the Battle Field.

Halsey divided Cortana because she needed her to finish archiving the data gathered from the relics under Sword Base. At the same time, Cortana needed to accomodate herself aboard the Pillar of Autumn, a lengthy process. The solution was to split her into two separate halves until Operation: RED FLAG was launched, at which point they would be reunited. The plan needed to be modified, because the unexpected arrival of Covenant reinforcements cut the two halves off from each other, and the results of the Sword Base dig turned out to be more important than anyone could guess, hence the involvement of Noble.

And while I don't think it's explicitly stated, I don't think that Noble's MJOLNIR would need the equipment to support a Smart AI, otherwise Six would have uploaded Cortana to his suit rather than carry her in a rather fragile-looking container. It makes sense - that's what much of the cost and effort go into, so removing it would make sense from an economic point of view. Dot is a more primitive construct, and I don't know if she's even carried in combat anyway - I got the impression that she was stored elsewhere, perhaps on the Pelican, and communicating at range. Having every Spartan equipped with an AI would have been unrealistic - I think the plan was always that only John would carry Cortana. -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 23:01, 6 March 2011 (EST)

I got the impression that Dot was a military AI, not assigned to Noble but rather to the UNSC Army. She seems to reflect the mannerisms of a Dumb AI, and has access to be able to contact cameras and military surveillance equipment all over the planet. She may be attached to Reach instead, but one scene with Jorge implies she doesn't understand Hungarian, which could suggest she's assigned to the Army rather than to Reach (or maybe Jorge was just mumbling!) Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 19:49, 7 March 2011 (EST)

If only more of you guys were in the Bungie Universe Forum on Bungie.net. Literally 2/3's of the population is the same as the original poster. Missing Mandible 18:57, 10 March 2011 (EST)

What does that mean? Vegerot (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2011 (EST)?!!

Things are very heptic over there. I can think of a few, by name, that claim that Bungie completely ignore the Halo Bible, that Bungie did this as a Middle Finger to Microsoft, that MS forced them to defy canon, that Bungie forced Nylund to "Come up with the excuse that you call Halsey's Journal." The list just goes on. (If you are refering to the Original Poster, it means the guy that started this discussion {The one who posted first}) Missing Mandible 19:22, 10 March 2011 (EST)

So then what do you say? You wanna move this (aka, copy and paste) talk to Bungie.net?Vegerot (talk) 19:53, 10 March 2011 (EST)?!?!

You can try, but many of the points have been said before. Many times, in fact. Yet people still refuse listen.

I have already given up on that community. I used to look up to some of those people, but, nowadays, I no longer give a Sh*t about them. Half the time I just roll my eyes and move on. Missing Mandible 20:06, 10 March 2011 (EST)

• goes on Bungie.net Forums* Yikes!!! Just come the fuck down with Armor Lock already! You're right. It seems more like a Bungie-hating forum rather than a Bungie Discussion forum! But can you give me the link to a few of the Topics regarding canon. As Bungie doesn't have a search feature that I know of. Vegerot (talk) 20:38, 10 March 2011 (EST)!!

You need to go to the Bungie Universe Forum, not Halo Reach's Forum. Missing Mandible 21:02, 10 March 2011 (EST)

Okay guys, I have to agree with some of these Bungie-haters. They do give some pretty good points. So do you guys mind correcting some of these claims (I assume everyone here has a Bungie.net account). A big one is here. I know the answers to #1, #2, I might know the answer to #5, and #6. Can you guys PLEASE help? I don't want to be sucked into their realm of hate and despair!! Vegerot (talk) 18:34, 13 March 2011 (EDT)!!!

Ok.

1. Retcon that is supported by what users said above
2. No one said that all of Alpha was anihilated - just the 300 present in the mission. 300 Betas were present on Operation TORPEDO - did it say that there were only 300 in the company? No
3. Data takes a long time to completely remove when you're talking about an entire star system with a number of populated worlds and ships. You can't just remove all of that data either - had the UNSC won the battle with all NAV data removed in the first days, where could all of the evacuating civilian liners have gone? They don't know the coordinates of any systems to head off to.
4. The ages aren't that simple. Some Harvest refugees were also in Alpha Company, thereby making them potentially older than the six-year average. Cryogenics reduces cellular ageing, allowing Carter to serve in Alpha company looking much younger than he actually is.
5. It says nowhere that there weren't any orbital MAC stations. Just because a ship wasn't destroyed by them doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The corvette that was destroyed outside of SWORD base was taken out by an orbital MAC gun.
6. Retcon - the Autumn lands on Reach to avoid being attacked by the Covenant in space while they await "the package". Red Team still left on a Pelican at one point (though whether before or after the Autumn went planet-side is unknown) and the Gamma station op still took place.

This good enough?-- Forerunner 18:50, 13 March 2011 (EDT)

Yeah, thanks! Can you please post this on Bungie.net. Or if you reply no, then I can do it myself.—This unsigned comment was made by vegerot (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

Reach was something that bungie wanted to do even though they already made the canon in the book "the fall of reach", they didn't bother thinking about the people that have read the book and get outraged with it, they just did it anyway. The book and game are just 2 different realities that connect with halo ce therefore making both canon in 2 different realities. SPARTAN-225 13:57 17th may 2011

No. Reach is the definitive source of canon. The game and the novels do not occur in "different realities". Anyone who thinks otherwise is not a Halo fan at all. --Courage never dies. 23:14, 16 May 2011 (EDT)

Then how does the book connect to the game? at the end of both they go to the start of halo ce SPARTAN-225 15:57 17th may 2011

I have done a LOT of thinking about this. And after reading Cryptum, I have realized this. What is the big deal with the Fall of Reach anyway? Even if it is totally different with no way to explain it, so what? Really, the ending is the same, the PoA goes to Installation 04, why is everyone complaining? When you read Cryptum you realize just how insignificant these battles really were. Like come on, one battle is different, so what? Vegerot (talk) 21:17, 17 May 2011 (EDT)!!

Be aware that Reach wasn't just a battle, it was THE defining battle of the Halo series that spurred off the events of virtually every one of the games. And just because you claim it to be just one battle doesn't mean it still wasn't a massive retcon. Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 22:10, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

But that's the only book that it contradicts. And even then, only the last few chapters of. The endings are the same, and the rest of all he Halo canon fits right into it. Think about it, The Forerunner Trilogy couldn't give a crap about the Fall of Reach, because, in fact, it makes NO difference at all! Vegerot (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2011 (EDT)!

That's like saying that changing the plotline of Halo:CE wouldn't matter because it will still end with the ring destroyed. IT DOES because the reverberations are going to go through the rest of the canon, such encounter of the Flood, or the ring's mechanics, Guilty Spark, etc And it did with FoR, which had to go through the massive changes of when Elites were encountered, or when RED FLAG was scheduled. Forerunner Trilogy is so far ahead of the timeline of course that nothing will matter Write any book far away enough, and there might be no effects from anything else, that doesn't mean it's not important. That and Cryptum came out AFTER Reach so of course it's not going to have to worry less about the timeline. That isn't case with the other books. It's like saying "Killing off the species of lion in Africa is not going to matter because there are moose in America that won't care." Yes, but everyone in Africa will, even if it's just one continent. Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 10:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

O.K., I agree. But still we can explain maybe 85% of the things in that seem different in the 2 Reaches (FoR and Reach). But that last 15% we're just gonna have to suck up and believe. But the thing you got to remember is that Halo is imaginary, so you can believe anything you want (I think I've already had this lecture before, but whatever). I don't feel like saying this lecture over again, so find out where I said this the first time and read that. Sorry, but I'm in a hurry to get to work now!! Vegerot (talk) 07:43, 19 May 2011 (EDT)!