Editing Talk:Banished

==Rename to "The Banished"==
Should we rename this page to "'''The''' Banished", since the "The" is almost always capitalized? -- [[User:Topal the Pilot|'''Topal the Pilot''']] [[File:Blueteam.png|20px]] <small>([[User talk:Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Talk'''</span>]]|[[Special:Contributions/Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Contribs'''</span>]])</small> 00:33, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

:Bungie also used this style from time to time (e.g. The Covenant, The Flood...), but we had decided not to respect it as it would look awkward. The page's title can be "The Banished", though. (see the [[Covenant]] article) [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 07:50, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

::Right, I can see that now. Thanks Imrane. -- [[User:Topal the Pilot|'''Topal the Pilot''']] [[File:Blueteam.png|20px]] <small>([[User talk:Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Talk'''</span>]]|[[Special:Contributions/Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Contribs'''</span>]])</small> 08:13, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

==The inclusion of the sentence "as such, the Banished were not involved in the Sangheili-Jiralhanae feud" ==
Editorguy, you can present your argument here instead of edit warring. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 04:13, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

:''Update: simplified my wordy response.''

:They fought against the Covenant prior to the Human-Covenant war and the Great Schism. And They are not Covenant. 

:The Brutes and Elites in this faction did not get involved in the Sangheili-Jiralhanae feud as The Banished were not The Covenant at the time of the Great Schism. They were their own faction. 

:It is an important thing to note on the article, it provides a lot of clarity as to why the Brutes  and Elites are able to coexist in this faction post-war. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 06:12, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

::I think we should simply drop the mention of the Great Schism in the article. The original comment from the making of simply said the Banished had fought against the Covenant before humanity beat them. Starting to guess what position the Banished had during the Schism is not good. We don't have enough precision on the topic. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 07:50, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

:::It explains why Brutes and Elites are in the same faction post-war despite their rivalry, because this faction existed prior to the conflict, it wasn't involved in it. The Great Schism was an intra-Covenant conflict, and the Banished is not the Covenant. And GrimBrotherOne has acknowledged this here: http://www.haloarchive.com/forum/topic/1107-halo-wars-2/?page=67 This discussion was about me having an extra sentence to say "as such, the Banished were not involved in the Sangheili-Jiralhane feued" anyway. That's what this whole discussion is about, me putting in that extra sentence. Let's not have it backfire where we remove the important detail that they are pre-Great Schism entirely. The fact that they are pre-Great Schism shows that they are not a Covenant Remnant, and also explains why Brutes and Elites have no qualms in this faction.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 09:11, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

::::I don't see the relevant comment from Grim in your link, the only thing he says is about Cutter looking younger due to cryosleep. Also, how do we know if the Banished were involved or not in the feud following the Great Schism? I don't think they played a huge part in this, but such a mention is mostly off topic. The only thing the developers talked about was, as I said above, that the Banished had fought against the Covenant before the latter's defeat against humanity. Also, do notice how the developers said now the Banished have all sorts of Covenant equipment, since the alliance's collapse, and their faction has expanded. This means they have stolen that during the Covenant's fall, thus making them a potential participant in the post-Covenant feud, though this doesn't make them a "Covenant Remnant" (you're bringing this in the discussion, I'm not). [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 10:49, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

:::::We do not have any information on whether or not they were involved in the war between the two species, as such (lol) it should not be added to the article. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 15:06, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

::::::All we know is that the Banished was fighting the Covenant at the same time the Covenant was battling humanity. It should be left at that. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 15:08, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

== Faction image ==

The faction's insignia can be found [http://www.gamespot.com/articles/halo-wars-2-new-story-details-and-images-revealed/1100-6440811/ here]. In the article's gallery, it is the insignia alongside Atriox, similar to how the ''Spirit of Fire'' emblem is alongside Cutter. If anyone can find a higher quality version of it, we can use it as the infobox pic. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 13:09, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

:Nevermind, found one. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 15:08, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

==Referenced==
{{Quote|Banished have been referenced in past Halo games and stories, but this is the first time they're showing up as an enemy to be dealt with.| Gamespot Article}}
As I was reading the gamespot article [http://www.gamespot.com/articles/halo-wars-2-new-story-details-and-images-revealed/1100-6440811/] I came upon the above quote, anyone got any idea what they are talking about? [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 15:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
:It's most certainly the subtle references from ''Halo: The Fall of Reach'' and ''Halo: The Cole Protocol'', which mention the Covenant fighting an enemy that caused them not to turn their full attention towards humanity and rebellions in Covenant space respectively.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 15:31, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
::Yep, that's what I was figuring. The Banished may also have some relation to the rebel group mentioned in the ''Halo Wars'' timeline, which attempted to take control of a Forerunner installation, but were "silenced" by Ripa 'Moramee. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 15:32, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
:::God I hope so, I am just going to replay every Halo and pay attention to everything, oh woe is me :). [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small>
:::The Halo Wars timeline part mentions that it was a Sangheili faction, personally I do not think it was the same, thoughts?[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 00:41, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
::::Halo Wars is the only game that mentions a rebellion (I think), and with Sangheili part of the Banished it's not crazy to think they were the same. I'm either counting that as an indirect mention to fit the quote of "past Halo games" or this [https://youtu.be/FsL53Mae5Kw?t=10m cutscene]. ''And leave us defenseless?''[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 00:48, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::Huh, I was always thought he was referring to a possible UNSC counter attack. That is it, I am re-watching everything!! [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 00:53, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
::::::To be honest, I thought he was referring to a counterattack too, but a possible attack from the Banished is my new headcanon. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 01:01, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::::For now I don't see a specific mention to the Banished. At first, I thought Gamespot was referring to Unmutuals and other heretic factions in a general manner. I don't mind being wrong if 343i clarify this statement, though. It's also possible this faction was born from Brutes who refused to join the Covenant, much like the Ussans in their time. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 04:33, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
::::::::Anyone have those quotes from TFOR and CP handy?  I've been trying to find them but for the love of me can't find them.[[User:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|Councilor &#39;Rumilee]] ([[User talk:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|talk]]) 08:49, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
(reset indent) I think we should be more careful with the list of appearances. It's not clear whether the Banished were really indirectly mentioned in these sources. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 08:56, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
:I agree. We may be reading too much into these ''possible'' retroactive references, particularly Regret's "defenseless" line. He very well may be referring to the possibility of a human incursion on the shield world (in which case his caution proved well placed) or to the local Flood presence (which was clearly not to be taken lightly). Could anyone provide quotes and page numbers for the supposed references in ''TFoR'', ''GoO'', ''TCP'', and any other relevant sources? --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 22:43, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

::Agreed. I do remember ''TFoR'' mentioning it, but I couldn't find the source when I briefly searched for it. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 23:05, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

:::I believe the speculation may come from this extract of ''TFoR'', though it actually refers to the Sigma Octanus artifact and to the Forerunners.

:::{{Quote|Her personal conclusions? Either the alien artifact was from a precursor to the present Covenant society... or it was from another, as yet undiscovered, alien culture.<br>When she had dropped that little bombshell of a speculation in the debriefing room yesterday, the ONI specialists had gone scrambling for cover. Especially that arrogant ass, Colonel Ackerson, she thought with a cruel smile.<br>The brass was not happy with either possibility. If it was old Covenant technology, it indicated they still knew virtually nothing about the Covenant culture. Twenty years of intensive study and trillions of credits of research and they barely even understood the alien's caste system.<br>And if it was the latter possibility, an artifact of another alien race... that could be even more problematic. Colonel Ackerson and some of the brass had immediately considered the logistics of fighting two alien enemies at once. Utterly ridiculous. They couldn't even fight one. The UNSC could never hope to survive a war on two fronts.|''The Fall of Reach'' (2010), chapter 25, page 264}}

:::I don't believe there is anything serious in ''TFoR'' beyond this extract, as Halsey and the UNSC just realize there could be another alien civilization. I don't bellieve the line from Regret in ''Halo Wars 1'' either. However the other books remain to be studied. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 07:53, 17 June 2016 (EDT)

::::I'm going to remove it for now, just to be safe. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 12:54, 17 June 2016 (EDT)

:::::I've also looked a little bit in ''The Cole Protocol''', and found a page (I don't remember which one) mentioning that Thel 'Vadamee had been fighting against Covenant, but it's not clear whether it was for training only or for quelling dissidents. Nothing to do with the Banished in my opinion. To be honest, the only time I've ever read about the Covenant fighting a war on two fronts was... on Waypoint's forums. I'm not familiar with this subject. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 13:09, 17 June 2016 (EDT)

::::::Found it in Ghosts of Onyx {{Quote|"We have been slowly losing this war. 'Slowly,' I think, because we had not been the main focus of the
Covenant hegemony until recently. Now they have found and targeted Earth. Add to this grim scenario the Flood an emergent biology that even the Forerunners could not control."|''Ghosts of Onyx''}}

[[User:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|Councilor &#39;Rumilee]] ([[User talk:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|talk]]) 23:01, 17 June 2016 (EDT)

:::::::Page #? [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 00:16, 18 June 2016 (EDT)

:::::::: Not sure its in a pdf.  Its when Halsey is talking to Kurt though. [[User:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|Councilor &#39;Rumilee]] ([[User talk:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|talk]]) 22:37, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Okay so it was closer to the book's end that I had thought, but I've finally found it: end of chapter 36, page 342. This time it could be a real reference to the Banished, but to be honest I think we should wait until it becomes clearer. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 00:46, 23 June 2016 (EDT)


''She seemed to accept this, however, and continued. "We have been slowly losing this war. 'Slowly,' I think, because we had not been the main focus of the Covenant hegemony until recently.'' 
I wonder what they meant back when GoO was written. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 00:50, 23 June 2016 (EDT)

==Jiralhanae Warlord==
Where does the "Jiralhanae Warlord" in the gallery come from? [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 15:42, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
:There's a hero unit for Atriox called "Jiralhanae Warlord". Pretty confident the grav hammer Brutes in the trailer are Warlords.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 16:25, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
::Anyone got a picture of dem Warlords? The ones in the trailers had recognizable helmets. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 16:41, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

This might be an opportunity to post the images of these then
<gallery>
File:HW2B_Banished_Warlord.png|Warlord
File:HW2B_Maurader.png|Marauder
File:HW2B_Reaver.png|Reaver
</gallery>
Seeing as we need pages on them now -[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 08:40, 17 June 2016 (EDT)

== They have an Anthem, once we get more info let's add it to the character box ==

This chant here: https://youtu.be/tIk1-_-SLeA?t=2m51s

Once we get more info, we can add it in. {{unsigned|Editorguy}}

Hitting your hammers on the ground is not an anthem, it is most likely ceremonial. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 05:49, 25 July 2016 (EDT)

A few seconds in after that they start singing and chanting https://youtu.be/tIk1-_-SLeA?t=2m57s , the audio quality is too low to make out anything [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 12:29, 25 July 2016 (EDT)

:I say we leave it out. Till we get an official release. Saves us messing up details. -[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 12:35, 25 July 2016 (EDT)

::Yeah that's what I'm saying, we'll wait until we can hear it clearer, just to keep an eye on it.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 12:40, 25 July 2016 (EDT)

==Lich==
When do we see a Lich under the control of the Banished? [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 06:25, 17 February 2017 (EST)
<gallery>
File:HW2B_Lich.png
</gallery>
:Building bases. Unless it was cut from the original beta.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 06:28, 17 February 2017 (EST)

I don't have HW2, hopefully someone who does can confirm it is in the final game. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 07:15, 17 February 2017 (EST)
:It's in the final game. Even has a Phoenix Log entry.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 17:45, 17 February 2017 (EST)

==Formation date==
We are basing the formation date off of the Battle of Algolis whose date is in turn based off some of the ordinance present. However there are some engagements that last over a couple years, Harvest and Meridian to name two. Is it possible that this was similarly a protracted battle with Atriox's execution taking place possibly a year or more before the end of the battle that we see in Prototype and Midnight in the Heart of Midlothian? [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 23:32, 21 September 2017 (EDT)

:Certainly. And in Halo Wars 2 we are told, that the Banished have been raiding the Covenant and other groups over a decade as of 2559. That implies it formed in 2549 at the very latest.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 23:42, 21 September 2017 (EDT)TheEld

==Logo name in infobox==
It might be a interesting idea to add the name of the logo in some form into the infobox. This idea came from discussions regarding how we could merge the Banished page for Halopedia and Halo Nation better.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 11:34, 16 January 2019 (EST)

==Objection to Banished classification as 'Mercenary'==
The Banished was formed to get out from the yoke of the Covenant, and Atriox and the Banished have a fiercely independant nature and vehemently refuse to work for anyone. So that is why I think their description as a 'Mercenary Organisation' is wrong and should be changed. I know it has been mentioned as such in the Halo Universe, but the definition of a mercenary organisation is an organisation that can be hired by people. The Banished definitely do NOT fall under this description. 
While they do preform raids and acts of Piracy, I think labelling them as Pirates is also a misnomer. They do these things not as and end, but as a means to an end.
Due to their relationships and origin with the Covenant, I think referring to them as a Rebel Organisation, Terrorist Organisation or even Splinter Faction would be better suited. 

A bit further from the point, but still relevant, is the following observation: Although heavily militarised, the Banished seem to be more of a concept of a State then an actual military. It has a vast military true, but that has to be supported by something. An economy and homebase. 
[[User:Thijsbos|Thijsbos]] ([[User talk:Thijsbos|talk]]) 13:06, December 18, 2021 (EST)
:I agree with this in principle, though I'd likely argue all of these labels have been correct at various points in time. The Banished when they were first created were certainly pirates and likely mercenaries - though the goals of Atriox shifted in the post-war to that of nation-building.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 13:15, December 18, 2021 (EST)

: Your objection goes against their official descriptions which is what we go off of for citations. They were first introduced as a '''"mercenary force"''' in ''[[Halo Wars 2]]'',<ref name="waypoint">[https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-wars-2 '''Halo Waypoint''': ''Halo Wars 2''] ''"Atriox, the leader of a violent, mercenary force known as The Banished."''</ref> and ''[[Halo: Envoy]]'' mentioned that hiring the faction for work was possible.{{Ref/Novel|Halo Envoy|Quote=Anexus watched them depart. "We should send word to our fellow Jiralhanae clans. We could even call the Banished to us. Atriox would send us cruisers to transport these Sharquoi back to our homeworld. We will be safe forever."}} For a more recent and up to date description of them, ''[[Halo: Shadows of Reach]]'' still calls them '''"a horde of mercenary raiders"'''.{{Ref/Book|Id=Mercenary|Shadows of Reach|Chapter= 1|Quote=The second was a horde of mercenary raiders called simply the Banished.}} In ''[[Halo Infinite]]'' they are still composed of multiple mercenary clans as shown in targets section of the menu, so the description '''"mercenary raiders"''' still stands and should remain unless a new official source specifies that they are no longer mercenaries at all. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 13:47, December 18, 2021 (EST)

{{Ref/Sources}}

::While I agree overall, it's worth mentioning that your second quote doesn't imply that they're doing mercenary work. Given that Atriox's stance is one of wanting to promote and unify the Jiralhanae under one coherent banner to fend off their enemies in the Sangheili and humanity, this just sounds like Atriox being willing to help out Brute interests where possible. Less a mercenary contract and more shared goals/interests/alliance.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 13:56, December 18, 2021 (EST)