Talk:Sangheili

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Ranks are a Mess

I'm not sure if it is against the rules to re-post this or not, so please forgive me, but the issue just keeps being pushed aside, when changes desperately need to be made.

Everyone seems to be aware of the massive mess that the upper ranks of the Sangheili Ranking Structure suffered since the release of Reach and Anniversary. Here I'm going to attempt to explain my theory. This has been well thought out and gone over with other Sangheili canon fanatics of various Sangheili themed clans. (Yes I am apart of one, don't judge me.) Now let me proceed. I believe once a sangheili reaches the rank of General, they can be put into one of two positions. They can obtain the TITLE of Field Master or Ship Master. This is justified by the Generals we see commanding ground troops in Reach (Field Master), as well as Ardo, the Shipmaster of Ardent Prayer. General is too low of a rank to be qualified to reach the TITLE of Fleet Master, which is why we have never seen one, and never will. This is justified by the Special Operations Ship and Fleet Masters we've seen, who do not dawn the gold armor. As well as the Arbiter. Now I probably should have stated this earlier, but I call Field, Ship, and Fleet Master titles, because it is simply an extra position added to your rank. Rank is the physical changes in armor and color. Title is your role. Moving on...

Once a General is promoted, they become a Zealot. From there, a Zealot will have another choice (Whomever decides which path is chosen is beyond me, likely a lesser prophet, but that is pure conjecture). They will either become golden armored Zealots, and remain in the procession o nf "Master" titles (Field Master, Ship Master & Fleet Master), or they will become maroon Zealots, apart of a commando detachment unit compromised o nf all Zealots and a Field Marshall subclass to hunt down intel or artifacts of religious value to the Covenant. This is supported by all the golden Zealots we read about in the Halo books, as well as the ones we've seen in Halo CE(A) and Halo 2; ranging from Field Masters, Ship Masters, and Fleet Masters, all described as Zealots and as golden. The maroon Zealots are obviously from Reach, and could as well include Thel 'Vadam's all Zealot lance, making the soon to be Arbiter the Field Marshall of the squadron, considering their color was never said, it can be deduced they were indeed maroon Zealots. Now to get to the big boys...

Supreme Commanders. Once a Zealot Fleet Master is granted permission to lead a large Fleet or a Combined Fleet rather than a Task Force or a small Fleet, they will be granted the title or rank of Supreme Commander. There is evidence for Supreme Commander being both a Rank and a Title. I personally lean towards a title, due to the only evidence of it being a rank is the Comic Book which depicts the Purple-clad Commander. And obviously Imperial Admirals command the entire Covenant Navy.

Now please, I would love to hear some input on this, but more importantly, I would like to see change. I am not the best editor when it comes to wikia, and I would be honored to have people help work on this mess. It is so wrong the way it is right now, and it bothers me greatly. Thank you for your time.--Xzan Tamasee 23:19, 24 December 2011 (EST)

So it goes:

- Minor (BLUE)

- Major (Officer) (RED)

- Ultra (WHITE)

- General (Field Master/Ship Master) (GOLD)

- Zealot (Field Master/Ship Master/Fleet Master [small fleets & task forces]/Artefact Squad) (GOLD/CRIMSON)

- Supreme Commander (Fleet Master [large and combined fleets]) (GOLD/PURPLE)

- Imperial Admiral (ORNATE WHITE AND GOLD)

The problem I have with this, is that if colour distinquishes rank, we have three ranks which are Golden. Personally, to identify rank correctly, I think I have to stop thinking in terms of sub-ranks and titles to a certain degree.

This is what we know is certain:

- Minor (BLUE)

- Major (RED)

- Ultra (WHITE)

- General (GOLD)

- Imperial Admiral (ORNATE WHITE AND GOLD)

This is my judgement:

Based on sources that the position of "Ship Master" can be granted to a number of different ranks, I believe this to be just a title. For the same evidence and reasoning, I would class "Fleet Master" as another title. To make things easier, I will presume (unless there are sources which grant evidence for my reasoning) that "Field Master" is also a title. Because of more than one appearance of Gold coloured elites as a "Supreme Commander" I deduce that this is yet another title (attributing the Purple armour of Thel 'Vadamee in The Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor to artistic license, which I would like to note is something not uncommon to the Halo franchise).

Based on recent sources which regard being a "Zealot" as more of an ideology than rank, I would classify this simply as an inclination felt by certain devoted Sangheili, and as a title if necessary. As a title, it is logical for "Zealot" to be held in concurrence with other titles. Having more than one title exists as per Ship Masters who are also Fleet Masters. There are also the bonus titles of Aristocrat and Kaidon.

The Zealots and Field Marshals of Halo: Reach we know belong to the Ministry of Fervent Intercession. It is obvious to me that these elites, like Stealth, Spec Ops and Ranger specialists do not pertain to the standard uniform ranking system and therefore do not need to be placed within it. Although it is certain that they all hold the title of "Zealot."

Finally "Imperial Admiral" is one of the highest known ranks used by the Sangheilian military.

Although your theory is certainly possible, I am sorry that I cannot commit myself to fully agreeing with it. I feel my conclusion involves less conjecture and is a more reasonable analysis of the evidence that we've seen within the series. The same as you, I would just like to form some consensus on the subject, for the better of Halopedia. So I greatly value your interest. :)

What do you think about that? -TheLostJedi 01:54, 3 January 2012 (EST)

As per your whole beginning, you restated what I wrote. Field, Ship, & Fleet Master are titles. However, your next paragraph about Zealot I disagree with. Zealot is specifically a rank, that is divided into two subclasses that I stated in my original post. The Golden Zealot commanders of the infantry, and the special mission type Crimson Zealots. This is directly supported by the description of the Zealot in the CEA Library. [1]

And everything else is also a rephrase of what I said of sorts. So it seems you only disagree with the Zealots, and provided the evidence on the table, and the fact that there are no Zealots of other ranks. (Ex. We never see Ultra Zealots or Major Zealots). I would have to disagree. I put a lot of effort into cracking this system. It took me months. I appreciate the replies at least. I am just hoping one day to get this changed onto the actual site. Evidently this is proving difficult lol --Xzan Tamasee 21:25, 4 January 2012 (EST)

Ah... now I have never seen the Library article for Zealots, as I don't own a Kinect. But this changes everything. At least in regard to how I perceived Zealots. ;)

Wish I saw that image before I uploaded a load of images to my user page. But it means only minimal changes are required. I've also put a lot of thought into ranks, so try not to take all of the credit buddy. We're a team, and I'm certain we'll soon get this done. :)

I've started to add a load of information to my user page in order to make it easier to figure this all out. Tomorrow I'll finish what I've started and upload a newer version of the Military Titles image to remove Zealot from there and anchor it in the MoFI. I plan to add information and sourcing for the rest of the ranks and titles, as well as a list of changes we're going to need to make to current articles. This is no doubt a big project. So I see having some kind of guide and unity would be a benefit. I'll let you know when it's done as I'm looking forward to fixing this with you. :D -TheLostJedi 00:54, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Thank the lord I have found someone who knows how and has the initiative to edit these pages. I am so very excited this will finally be rectified! Unfortunately I am of no help with the editing, but if you need to consult me with any information do not hesitate! My xbl gamertag is Avu Med Telcam. You can message me there, or on Bungie.net if you need to contact me since I am not aware of any chatbox or private messaging system on this site. Once again thank you for having the initiative to tackle the editing involved in this great change!--Xzan Tamasee 17:21, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Thanks! I'm sure your consultation will prove very intrinsic. In fact, once I've finished my analysis within the nexy few days, perhaps you could take a look at it for me please? Let me know if there's anything you believe is incorrect, etc. Then perhaps I could begin editing these articles. I'll fire you an Xbox Live message anyway once I'm finished soon. Nice Gamertag! Haha. ;) -TheLostJedi 08:18, 6 January 2012 (EST)

Excellent! Contact me whenever you need to. I look forward to seeing progress.--Xzan Tamasee 18:51, 7 January 2012 (EST)

I've been a little busy and have had to put this on hold. But it looks like some other users have made some progress. I'll come back by the end of the month and finish my user page. Then make some edits. ;) -TheLostJedi 07:01, 12 January 2012 (EST)

I've been waiting to say this: It's the end of the month :D--Xzan Tamasee 19:39, 31 January 2012 (EST)

...please can we begin work on this?--Xzan Tamasee 21:21, 3 February 2012 (EST)

Why don't you do something?--Spartacus ^{Talk • Contribs}

I am a horrible wikia editor, as I stated, which is why I need the help of someone who knows what they are doing. I am very busy with my Fleet as well, so even if I did know how to properly move and edit articles, I don't have the time.--Xzan Tamasee 22:39, 3 February 2012 (EST)

Nearly two months... can anyone please start on this? I hate seeing how wrong the system is right now. If I was a competent editor for wikia I would do this myself.--Xzan Tamasee 10:59, 20 February 2012 (EST)

This isn't a wikia wiki :/ .-- Forerunner 12:43, 20 February 2012 (EST)

Well, perhaps make a bullet point of what other users can do for a start?— subtank 19:37, 20 February 2012 (EST)

Start from scratch. Maybe we could have a series of descending lists referring to the standard ranking scheme shown by (I think) TheLostJedi; another list could be used to refer to specific titles or specialised ranks (SpecOps). Alternatively, we could make a separate article all together to start over.-- 77.97.158.189 12:27, 21 February 2012 (EST)

A Brief Outline:

-INFANTRY

• Minor
• Major/Officer
• Ultra

-FIELD & NAVAL COMMAND

• General: Titles of Field or Ship Master
• Zealot Crimson (Special Missions) / Zealot Golden (Commanders): Titles of Field, Ship, or Fleet Master
• Field Marshall (Leads Crimson Zealots): Titles of Field or Ship Master
• Supreme Commander (Either a Title of Gold Zealots or Rank of it's own, evidence for both.)
• Imperial Admiral

-SPECIAL OPERATIONS

• Spec Ops Elite
• Spec Ops Officer
• Spec Ops Commando (See Huki 'Umamee.)
• Spec Ops Commander: Titles of Field, Ship, or Fleet Master

-FLEET SECURITY

• Stealth Elite/Ossoona
• Ranger
• Fleet Security Officer (See Usze 'Taham. Don't know why this rank was never listed.)

-HIGH COUNCIL

• Councilor

-HONOR GUARD

• Honor Guard
• Honor Guard Ultra (Or Light of Sanghelios, whichever one.)

-CIVILIAN

• Aristocrat
• Elder
• Kaidon
• Oracle Master

-OTHER

• Ascetic
• Weapons Master (See Sanj'ik.)
• Arbiter

-'REFUMEE'S HERETICS

• Minor
• Major

Ending Notes: Now I have pondered what to name these two different Zealots for the time being until more light is shed on the process. I have personally nicknamed the Red Zealots "Clerical Zealots" because their work seems to heavily involve their Ministry and to further advance the Covenant Religion. The Golden Zealots I have nicknamed "Martial Zealots" because of their role of commanding. If you wish to use these instead of Red Zealot and Gold Zealot, go ahead. I won't get involved in a debate about that, I am merely throwing it on the table because it sounds very uneducated to just call them Red and Gold.--Xzan Tamasee 15:33, 21 February 2012 (EST)

Anyone up for the task?--Xzan Tamasee 09:25, 25 February 2012 (EST)

Sorry guys. I've been MIA for quite some time hehe. I'd like to help out sooner rather than later, but half my time is spent running a society now. So if you do decide to wait for me to edit, you might have to wait until July. Yikes! Otherwise I recommend this outline for a table:

-CONVENTIONAL MILITARY RANKS

• Minor
• Major
• Ultra
• General
• Imperial Admiral

-MILITARY TITLES

• Field Master
• Ship Master
• Fleet Master
• Supreme Commander

-MINISTRY OF FERVENT INTERCESSION

• Zealot
• Field Marshal

-FLEET SECURITY

• Stealth
• Ossoona
• Ranger

-SPECIAL OPERATIONS

• Trooper
• Officer
• Commander

-CULTURAL AND POLITICAL OFFICES

• Arbiter
• Ascetic
• Councilor

-HONOUR GUARD OF THE COVENANT

• Honour Guardsman
• Lights of Sangheilios

-CIVILIAN TITLES

• Aristocrat
• Kaidon
• Elder
• Oracle Master

-'REFUMEE HERETICS

• Minor
• Major

An explanation for such can be found on my user page. All the best and good luck. -TheLostJedi 11:55, 28 February 2012 (EST)

Interesting way to break down the ranks, but you're missing Fleet Security Officer and Spec Ops Commando.--Xzan Tamasee 21:30, 29 February 2012 (EST)

And Weapons Master--Xzan Tamasee 10:08, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Here's a crazy idea: remove the entire section on Rank Structure and simply use the Sangheili Rank template. The template is doing a great job of organising each title, rank and group into their respective category... so, why not replace everything in the Rank Structure section with the Sangheili Rank template. It seems that summarising them in a concise manner hasn't work quite well since 2007 and it simply causes more confusion. If readers want to learn the ranks/titles/groups, they can simply click the link. On that point, Arbiter and Councilors are titles, not ranks. The same could be said for the Honor Guardsmen/Guard Ultra and Ascetics but they are neither rank or title; they are a group within the Covenant. Thus, it would be inappropriate to put them under the Rank Structure section.— subtank 09:44, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Good News!

I've updated the table. Refined it with simpler groupings and headings. And also included missing titles and ranks which should have been added. I'm probably gonna be busy until the end of this week. After then however, I should be able to really give these squid-jaw bastards some proper TLC. First on my agenda will be the actual rank section on this page. It's so hideous right now with a huge table, followed en masse with several other ranks and titles with just links. So I plan to make it look a bit more uniform and presentable, checking information and sources as I go. Then take it from there, making slight improvements outward towards the other articles themselves. All those in favour? -TheLostJedi 04:12, 12 March 2012 (EDT)

Although I have zero editing skills I'd be more than happy to offer canonical advice.--Xzan Tamasee 21:58, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

Alright I just had a chance to quickly skim through everything, It looks very nice. One point of disagreement I'd like to raise is the place of the Commando. From what we know in Halo 3, Commando's were apart of the Special Warfare group. The only other time in the fiction we see the phrase Commando is Special Operations Commando Huki 'Umamee. To me it seems like we can narrow it down to Special Operations Commando being the full name of the rank, and it being placed in Special Operations, for obvious reasons. If you do not accept the idea that these two ranks are linked, at least accept the fact that Huki was addressed as a Special Operations Commando, and that it deserves it's own rank in the Special Operations ranking tier. I would assume between Officer and Commander.--Xzan Tamasee 22:05, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

Oops, sorry for the massive amount of editing, but just before I went to bed I noticed that there is no distinction between the Maroon and Gold Zealots yet, but that seems like a project for another time.--Xzan Tamasee 22:08, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe your point is that the Commando Unit referenced in Halo 3 and the Special Operations Officers also known as Commandoes are the same rank, if not being somehow related?

It's true that both are part of the Special Warfare Group, but it's not specified as to which section the Commando Unit actually belongs; Special Operations or Fleet Security. For all we know, they may even be their own division alongside SpecOps and Fleet, as unit may refer to a singular rank or larger group. Therefore I felt the most appropriate/unbiased place to list the Commando Unit in the table was in the Miscellaneous row, instead of adding it to one of the other divisions or creating a new row entitled 'Special Warfare Group' solely for the purpose of listing the Commando Unit. Which would make the table unecessarily bigger and have the potential to cause confusion alongside the other rows; SpecOps and Fleet, due to the Special Warfare Group being their parent division.

Halo 3 is set in a post-Schism era, and discriptions for the Commando Unit state that they are newly formed. This implies that the Commando Unit is a new part of the Separatist military. Probably not like anything we have seen. In-game SpecOps Elites also don the Assault harness in Halo 3, going further to suggest that the two are different things. If you disagree my points, please go ahead and dispute them if you can justify it. I want to make sure that I do this right. And your input is sincerely appreciated. :) -TheLostJedi 20:34, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

I really don't want to argue anything to be honest. It's alright if the Commando Unit from Halo 3 is it's own branch. But what I will say is that Huki 'Umamee was addressed as a Special Operations Commando. So even if the Halo 3 Commando and Huki are not one in the same rank, it was literally written that Special Operations Commando is a rank. It may have nothing to do with the Halo 3 Commandos, but the fact of the matter is that Spec Ops Commando is not recognized on the ranking tier here even though it was cited as a rank in Halo: The Flood. So what I'm basically saying is you can keep the Commando Unit page where it is, but there needs to be a page made in the Spec Ops section for Special Operations Commando. Because it's just wrong to list Huki as a Spec Ops Officer even though his rank is Spec Ops Commando.--Xzan Tamasee 14:46, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

According to the Spec Ops Officer article, the officers are informally known as Commandoes. -TheLostJedi 22:38, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

There is no source for that, and after reading the chapter that it came from you can tell someone was just lazy and didn't want to create a Spec Ops Commando page.--Xzan Tamasee 21:33, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

The only sourcing that's currently listed for the Officer article is Halo: The Flood. I wonder whether the Halo Encyclopedia or Essential Visual Guide actually refer to the rank as Officer. I don't have any of those other texts, which I'd need to to look into this further. Do you and if so, can you provide some sourcing for that article please? -TheLostJedi 05:08, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

I think only the Encyclopedia does refer them as the same rank. The EVG does not have a page about Elite Majors. —S331 _{(COM • Mission Log • Profile)} 07:34, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for the confirmation on Commandoes. That's interesting in regard to the Elite Major... it would suggest that the Elite Officer and Major are one and the same, something I've personally felt ever since Halo: Reach released. Other sources dispute this though. Unfortunately I think we have to treat them as two separate ranks, or the Officer as a sub-class at least. I've made some headway on the table re-structuring and will continue as soon as I get the opportunity. Let me know what you think. :D -TheLostJedi 15:28, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Fleet Security Officer (See Usze 'Taham. Don't know why this rank was never listed.)--Xzan Tamasee 18:09, 24 March 2012 (EDT)

Not a rank. Check the source.— subtank 18:14, 24 March 2012 (EDT)

I don't understand some of your thought process. It's evident that 'Taham is a rank in Fleet Security that is currently undefined. There are no other Maroon clad Elites in Assault Harnesses seen anywhere else in the game. We know he serves Fleet Security and sees combat. Just like "Honor Guard Ultra", his rank does not have an official name, but because there is a lack of name doesn't mean the rank does not exist. It's pretty clear 'Taham is a rank in Fleet Security, and until specified I'd suggest keeping it Fleet Security Officer.--Xzan Tamasee 11:18, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Fleet Security Officer is not a rank as it has not been stated as such in any source. Fleet Security is a group within the Covenant SpecWar Group; thus his rank is of the unknown since it was never provided; hence, following the structure of the Covenant's SpecOps since they too don't follow the normal Covenant ranking system, he could be a Trooper/normal infantry within the specwar group, Sub-commander/Officer or a Commander (very unlikely) within the Fleet Security group. As such, his rank would be of the unknown... but it exists within the group. And I'm very sure it won't be "Fleet Security Officer" unless a source expressly says that.

As for Honor Guard Ultra, I think it has been resolved that that title is fan-given and that the official one is "Light of Sanghelios". — subtank 13:52, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

What you said there just proves my point. The title is fan given. You just provided examples of other fan given names that could be used instead (Fleet Security Trooper, Officer, Commander), But I simply chose Officer because it was already listed as such. The fact of the matter is the rank exists, he was a playable character in Halo 3. As for Lights of Sanghelios, if you look at the source, it never really says they were talking about Honor Guard Ultras, that could be a different rank entirely, but I'm not going to dispute it.--Xzan Tamasee 21:37, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

My point is that we should avoid using fan-given titles even though the title exists but the title of the title is unknown. This is because this practice has stirred quite some trouble and confusion within the Halo community (such case being the Prophet Flood form, of which we thought that it is a distinct flood form but the title of the form is unknown. As such, "Prophet Flood Form" was attached to the form). The examples I gave of a SpecWar ranking groups are simply examples and not suggestions for what the Fleet Security group should have; it's an indication that SpecWar groups don't follow the standard Covenant ranking system and that they have their own rank system.

As for the Light of Sanghelios/Ultra-Honor Guard, check the talk page. The article hasn't been updated properly ever since the merge.— subtank 07:30, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

You make the statement that the Honor Guard Ultra page hasn't been updated, but it's been that way for so long. I mean, McFarlane is even making a Fleet Security Officer (Or whatever you want to call it) Action Figure. How could you not justify acknowledging it? To avoid confusion, you could easily name the page "Fleet Security (Unknown Rank)" or simply state in the article that the actual rank name is unknown? To not include it even though it has been seen both in game and as an action figure is a little bit absurd.--Xzan Tamasee 10:49, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

(Yes this is a separate comment and not intended to be a reply to the above, and yes, this comment has been repeated from the above section since that comment in that section has been gone unnoticed) I think this article needs to separate titles and groups from the rank structure section, since it has caused some confusion to a number of readers. For example, Light of Sanghelios or Honor Guard Ultra is a unit within the Honor Guardsmen. Both of these are groups and not necessarily a rank. Similarly, Arbiter and Councilor are titles and not ranks.— subtank 13:56, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Life span

Is there any indication regarding how long they live? Jac0bBau3r1995 04:40, 20 March 2012 (EDT)

Nope. We do know Thel 'Vadam is 66 or 67 by the end of Halo 3, and still seems to be in pretty great shape, but that's not too much of a clue to how long they live. Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 15:45, 23 March 2012 (EDT)