Editing Talk:Covenant

{{Archived|multi=Archives<br />[[/Archive 1|1]] • [[/Archive 2|2]]}}

==Moved==
There. I've archived the talk page.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 14:19, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
:Where's the archive? Clicking on "Archive" leads to "Create this new page". [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 20:29, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
::Archive is right [[Talk:Covenant Empire/Archive 1|here]]. I'll see if I can fix the archive link.--''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color:Green; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">Spartacus,</span>]]'' ''[[Halopedia:Administrators|<span style="color:DarkGoldenrod; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">Halopedia Administrator</span>]]'' <sup>'''[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">Talk</font>]]'''</sup> 21:01, 25 September 2012 (EDT)

== Covenant empire symbol ==

Shouldn't the article be using [[File:Halo1 - Covenant Symbol.png|100px]]? Or at least display it? [[Special:Contributions/98.24.14.97|98.24.14.97]] 09:33, 18 May 2013 (EDT)

Furthemore, shouldn't there be an article on the various covie glyphs we see? Not the forerunner ones, but like the ones seen on ghosts, wraiths and the weapons. [[Special:Contributions/98.24.14.97|98.24.14.97]] 09:35, 18 May 2013 (EDT)

:As discussed [[File talk:Halo1 - Covenant Symbol.png|here]], it's been determined that that glyph does not actually stand for the Covenant but actually for its vehicles, and that it changes throughout the games. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 18:37, 18 May 2013 (EDT)

::I might as well point out that I have seen this glyph on other Covenant devices besides their vehicles. So, it could be considered the symbol of the Covenant Empire. --'''''[[User:Xamikaze330|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Halo;">Xamikaze330</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Xamikaze330|<font color="Blue">Transmission</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|<font color="Green">Commencing</font>]]''''']</small> 15:16, 19 February 2014 (EST)Xamikaze330

I think this ( http://imgur.com/a/SaO1V ) might be the closest thing we now have for a symbol of the Covenant Empire. [[User:Lord Susto|<span style="color:orange">Lord Susto</span>]] 01:35, 29 July 2015 (EDT)
:The second one down does match, or is at least very similar to, the Covenant emblem in ''Halo 4'' and ''Halo: The Master Chief Collection''.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 01:39, 29 July 2015 (EDT)

I will be changing the picture once I get a better resolution picture of the covenant flag the letters of which are seen below and on Sunaion.
[[File:Spartan Games Covie ships.jpg|thumb|center|400px]]
--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 16:24, 29 July 2015 (EDT)

:I agree, we should get a symbol/flag for the main image ASAP as a counterpart to how the UNSC article uses a symbol. Preferably, we'll have confirmation on it first, maybe when H5 comes out? The dark and grainy Halo Wars images just doesn't cut it - especially since only Elites and Banshees are represented. (I took the liberty of turning The Master Builder's image into a thumb so it doesn't obliterate the screen.)--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Gray">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 15:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::If the Halo Wars is too grainy and outdated, lets use Halo 2 Anniversary's Covenant depiction. Have a scene from the Arbiter's trial. It shows the Hierarch's (Covenant Leaders) the Councillors (Elites), the Prophets, Brutes, and the leadership and a meeting room. However this symbol has only been shown in the games to depict the post-war Covenant. It only depicts the Original Covenant in fleet battles wich does not work as Fleet Battles is a third party board game, and is a lower hierarchy than Halo 1-3. Thus Halo 1-3 (including anniversary)'s depiction of the Covenant is more accurate. Please read this: http://www.halopedia.org/Halopedia:Canon_policy#Hierarchy_of_canon [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 08:31, 23 November 2015 (EST)

I much prefer the current image, if we are to change it I suggest we vote on it. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 22:20, 8 September 2015 (EDT)

:I put up the current image, but never really liked it; it's merely the closest we had to something high-graphics that shows the multitude of their species and technology. If the above is the new Covenant symbol, which seems likely based on [[:File:UNSC Battlegroup Leviathan.jpg|the UNSC juxtaposition]], then that works instead. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 03:17, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
Since we have the triangular characters that represent the covenant I think we should change the picture of this and Jul's covenant pic to that of the triangular glyphs that officially represent the covenant. They have been seen in halo fleet battles, a replica of truth and Reconciliation and on Sunaion as the flag of the Covenant. The current pic only shows the Sangheili and there is no reason why the UNSC should have its actual faction logo but the covenant should not. --[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 07:55, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

:I actually prefer the current image because it shows the Covenant's power and tenacity real well. But if the decision is to change the image to what The Master Builder has proposed, I'm fine with that.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 17:29, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

::The image TMB proposed is currently a photoshoped recreation and not the actual thing, besides I agree with Tucker, the current image conveys the power of the former covenant, use it for Jul's covenant. One more thing, how do we know it means Covenant? it could mean For Victory.[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 18:48, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

:::I don't really see how the current image is good in any way as a representative for the Covenant. The variety and massiveness of the Covenant is what actually conveys their power. Additionally, the Covenant aren't just a military entity, so we shouldn't just show that side either way. And no, it should not be used for Jul since this image is pre-Jul, pre-H4, pre-343. It's so far removed from Jul's covenant in many ways. If you want to represent Jul's covenant, then simply use pictures of Jul's covenant. As for the recreation, I agree. We need confirmation before using it. I'll try to ask a community rep soon.--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Gray">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 12:44, 22 September 2015 (EDT)

:I'm not sure how that's agreeing with me when I said I ''don't'' like the picture. A better one would show more of the Covenant species and perhaps even their starships.

:The prior logo was a recreation too, as seen by its description. We're deducing that this one means Covenant because the Fleet Battles image for the UNSC ships linked above shows the wartime UNSC logo. So it stands to reason that the equivalent logo on the alien picture above is the wartime Covenant logo. Incidentally, that's why we didn't make [[:File:HaloWars-CovenantSymbol.png|this logo]] from ''Halo Wars'' the page image, because its human opposite on the faction screen was the ''Spirit of Fire'' [[:File:Sof logo.png|emblem]] so it seemed more likely that the alien ''Halo Wars'' one stood for the troops only under Regret's command. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 01:37, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

: sorry I meant Spartacus [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 02:03, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

:I am switching it to the triangular characters. Halo 5 officially confirms that this is the symbol the covenant uses to represent itself as a whole and it is not specific to Jul's faction. It's also unfair that the SoS and UNSC get their symbol but the Covenant gets a picture that represents only the Sangheili.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 11:52, 2 November 2015 (EST)

==Founding?==
The Halo 4 Interactive Guide says it was founded 5000 years ago not 3000.  Retcon?[[User:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|Councilor &#39;Rumilee]] ([[User talk:Councilor &#39;Rumilee|talk]]) 14:36, 19 February 2014 (EST)
:I would probably say mistake or typo.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 14:42, 19 February 2014 (EST)
::All the other sources we have indicate the 3,000 year mark. As Sith said, it's probably a mistake or typo.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 15:03, 19 February 2014 (EST)

== Jul's Covenant and the Covenant Empire should not have the same image. ==

Two different factions, leaders, and eras. Why not keep it the way it was? Now giving both groups the exact same image (when Halo 1-3 didn't depict the Covenant with this purple symbol is inaccurate. If the purple symbol is used to represent the Covenant in Halo 4 and 5 (after Halo 3) it is clearly referring to the post war Covenant, not the pre-war Covenant. They are two different groups.

With regards to Fleet Battle showing the Covenant Empire with that logo, that is not a valid source for several reasons. For one, it mixes both Human-Covenant War era (Halo: Contact Harvest-Halo 3) art and designs as well as some post-war era (Halo 4 onwards) art and designs. Since it features post war art designs during the Human Covenant war era, post war images such as that symbol attributed to the post-war Covenant can not be taken as accurate. Also because this is a third party board game, its canon-ness can not take priority over a full fleged game's canon (Halo 1-3, including anniversaries). Halo 4 and 5 depict the post war Covenant, which is an entirely different faction.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 08:07, 23 November 2015 (EST)

:There's been plenty of other media that mixed post-war designs, such as ''Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn''. The mixing of designs make sense; much of Jul's Covenant equipment has been old war armor and weapons, with some like [[Ru'swum-pattern Phantom|their Phantoms]] being noted to have an earlier fabrication date. As for having the same logo, that also makes sense; {{Plain|[https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/community/blog-posts/canon-fodder-puzzled-expression Jul considers his Covenant to be the same as the original]}} and therefore they would use the same insignia. Even though the logo has been introduced in recent fiction rather than past Halo games, that doesn't mean it isn't valid. New fiction supersedes old, most of the time. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:00, 22 November 2015 (EST)

::The concept of newer fiction superseding old would make sense if for example Halo Anniversary or Halo 2 Anniversary depicted the Covenant with that symbol, but it does not. Halo 4/Halo 5 using a Covenant symbol depicting the Covenant does not apply to the Original Covenant, as Halo 4/Halo 5 never depicts the Original Covenant, it depicts Jul's New Covenant which is an entirely different group. The only new fiction the depicts the Original Covenant with that Symbol is Halo: Fleet Battles, wich is a board game. Here is the issue.

::Remember this, http://www.halopedia.org/Halopedia:Canon_policy#Hierarchy_of_canon. Halo Wars, Reach, 1-3's depiction of the Covenant Empire (Halo 4 and 5 doesn't depict the Covenant Empire btw, it depicts Jul's Covenant) is more canon than the depiction in Halo: Fleet Battles. Games supersede BoardGames and third party stuff in the Hierarchy of Canon. Because Halo Wars-Halo 3 are games, their representation of the Covenant takes canon over the Halo: Fleet Battles representation of the Covenant. http://www.halopedia.org/Halopedia:Canon_policy#Hierarchy_of_canon.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 08:04, 23 November 2015 (EST)

:::I'm not sure why invoke the hierarchy of canon when there is no evident contradiction in the first place. ''Halos'' 1-3 and ''Reach'' do ''not'' depict any symbol that can be conclusively identified as the official emblem of the Covenant at all while ''Fleet Battles'' does. In the absence of any hypothetical symbol that may be different from the one from ''Fleet Battles'' (the existence of which you're only ''assuming'') I don't see why not just use the one we have. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Jugus'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:01, 23 November 2015 (EST)

::What Jugus said. Regardless if Fleet Battles is a board game, under 343's rules it is just as canon as the rest of the universe, unlike Bungie-era [[Halo Interactive Strategy Game]], which makes up its own scenarios. Last month 343 was posting up a ton of media and backstory for Fleet Battles on [[Canon Fodder]]. It is entirely canon and so should be treated in the same way. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:29, 23 November 2015 (EST)

I agree with both people above me. Even if it isn't an official logo for the Covenant, it is literally stylized Sangheili writing for the word "Covenant", making it the best thing we have at the moment.{{Unsigned|Japeth555}}

== Regarding the two versions of the Covenant Symbol ==

We have two different (both are technically accurate) images for the Covenant Symbol. [http://www.halopedia.org/File:H5Covenant_Logo2.png Symbol 1] and [http://www.halopedia.org/File:Covenant2.jpg Symbol 2]. I strongly believe that we should use [http://www.halopedia.org/File:H5Covenant_Logo2.png Symbol 1] for the main image of this page for two reasons. 

*Giving this page a different image than Jul 'Mdama's Covenant makes it more clear to people that they are on a different page, and emphasises that these are two different groups. For fans that are less involved in the story, there has been a lot of confusion between the difference of the Covenant and Jul 'Mdama's Covenant, and has created huge misconceptions amongst the fanbase. So anything to help clear it up would be a positive thing I think. We have the liberty to do this as both images are technically accurate as I'll delve into with my second reason.

*Technically, either or works. Giving them the same image probably is still accurate enough, but giving them different images wouldn't be inaccurate either. If anything though, I think giving them different images would slightly be more accurate, as no media has depicted the original Covenant with the additional designs and shapes that [http://www.halopedia.org/File:Covenant2.jpg Symbol 2] presents. Fleet Battles at least depicted the original Covenant with the design more akin to [http://www.halopedia.org/File:H5Covenant_Logo2.png Symbol 1], so it makes sense to attribute it to the original Covenant article instead. And if I remember correctly I saw designs [http://www.halopedia.org/File:H5Covenant_Logo2.png Symbol 1] in Halo 2 Anniversary as well in High Charity (could be wrong here). This isn't to say [http://www.halopedia.org/File:Covenant2.jpg Symbol 2] is entirely inaccurate, both of them work technically, but I think it would be helpful to give this page symbol 1 for the reason mentioned above since both work anyway.

[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 04:11, 27 January 2017 (EST)

:I agree on the use of Symbol 1, considering it's explicitly been used for the original Covenant, while the second one has not. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 13:52, 27 January 2017 (EST)
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	:I agree on the use of Symbol 1, considering it's explicitly been used for the original Covenant, while the second one has not. --[[User:Jugus\|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus\|talk]]) 13:52, 27 January 2017 (EST)		:I agree on the use of Symbol 1, considering it's explicitly been used for the original Covenant, while the second one has not. --[[User:Jugus\|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus\|talk]]) 13:52, 27 January 2017 (EST)

	::I agree on the use of Symbol 1, but I think the second reason matters more than the first. If Symbol 1 is all that has been used for the original Covenant, with no canon examples of Symbol 2 for them, then that's the reason to use it. Simply giving Jul's Covenant and the original Covenant different symbols isn't as strong a reason, since Jul considered his Covenant to be a continuation of the first so reusing the old logo would tie into that. [[User:Tuckerscreator\|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator\|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:06, 27 January 2017 (EST)