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| {{Welcome|BaconShelf}} | | {{Welcome|BaconShelf}} |
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| == Re Company Structure ==
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| ^ -- My apologies, I'm new to wiki editing. But I take issue with taking every source as canon when retcons do exist, especially in regard to ODST Companies. ODST combat teams have only ever been mentioned in word of god sources, that being the Bungie site. A singular combat team is mentioned in Halo Outcasts as being roughly 14-15 men. Which puts it at a UNSCMC squad. In Halo The Flood, Halo 2, Halo: TFOR, Halo Wars 2, Halo: The Cole Protocol, and Halo: Spartan Assault, (all in-universe sources both newer and older than that Bungie article I might add, and not word of god) all have ODSTs operating with platoons as the unit directly subordinate to the company. The lone combat team we do see is operating independently from a *standard* ODST outfit of around 800 (Halo: Outcasts and Halo: The Flood). With this said, it is clear that ODSTs do not use combat teams as directly subordinate to the company, nor is any ODST company we see 84-112 men when at max strength (800ish which is DIRECTLY comparable to a standard UNSMC battalion (listed strength of roughly 900)). Is it not fair at that point to remove this mention of ODST company organization, as it is a singular source contradicted by everything else? At the very least could you add a note explaining that this is most likely not the case in universe.
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| Also note that the 2022 Encyclopedia makes no mention of ODSTS combat teams when talking about ODST organization & when we see a full-strength Black Dagger Platoon it is 40 men, the same as the standard UNSC marine platoon. While I can definitively say Combat Teams aren't an organizational component for ODSTs, my conjecture (unproven) is that it is rather a team for an ODST squad that is operating independently. The on-paper and in-practice organization of the ODSTs when operating as a complete unit (company/battalion) is the Fireteam -> Squad / Combat Team -> Platoon -> Company -> Battalion with numbers the same as UNSCMC.
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| To restate, ODSTs using combat teams as their sub-company Unit is at conflict with every other source detailing ODST organization. The only mention of Combat Teams being the sub unit directly under companies is from a single Bungie blog post. The above-mentioned blog post's statement is at odds with both previous lore, and been retconned by later lore. I understand that as lore nerds, we need to exercise critical thinking in this regard and that ODST blurb should be removed or put in the notes section{{Unsigned|76.14.10.237}}
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| :The standard policy we apply when writing articles on this wiki is that our job is not to decide what is more canon than anything else; we are simply a repository of official information, and we are not here to make judgements about given sources except in instances where things ''directly'' contradict (ie two sources giving conflicting numbers for the size of a weapon, for example). Unless official word-of-god is said to ignore a source, we simply take it at its face value. By a similar metric, we have a fairly strict policy against doing custom maths and measurements for things such as velocities or sizes.
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| :The ODSTs are a vast and varied organisation, with numerous sub-elements such as Special Tactics & Equipment or the ODST Special Purpose forces (not to mention the inconsistent way they are depicted when looking at the variety displayed between Fireteam Raven, Alpha-9, Sunray or any of the more conventional military depictions). As such, unless directly challenged we tend not to remove a source, as we rarely get a comprehensive insight into the setting to definitively say something isn't true. A useful thing to remember is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. While yes, you can point to many sources which do not use combat teams over a more conventional structure, none of those sources definitively state that combat team ''is not'' used.
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| :Ultimately, the onus is on the reader to weigh up the sources provided for various information and determine for themselves on whether they can trust it for the purposes they need (ie fan art, fan fiction, external debates, etc); we aim to be a comprehensive catalogue of information. If we were to begin omitting information based on its age or whether it doesn't hold up as well in the modern day, about half of the site wouldn't exist anymore, nor would we be a useful and comprehensive resource. It does suck, but ultimately that's the job of the official franchise writers to make sense of and decide what to discard, not us.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 12:12, January 6, 2024 (EST)
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| I understand, would it be possible to then at least add a mention that ODSTs have been more commonly using standard UNSCMC organization? It's up to the mods but I think while it is a minor detail, it is also incredibly important to note. My recommendation would be to say something like "it has been mentioned that ODST units use combat teams as direct sub-company organizations; However most sources depict them operating in structure and number similar to that of standard UNSC marines. ODSTs are more consistently known to have employed platoons as the premier sub-company organization" (Silent Storm pg **, Halo: Outcasts pg **, I only have PDF copies to source, if needed I could give the direct quotes for everything)
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| Also my point about that specific article's canonicity is that, it seems to refer to ODSTs as a whole and it does ''directly'' conflict with every other mention of ODSTs using platoons -> Company. As well there is a numbers conflict, an ODST platoon is given at 40 in Halo: Silent Storm (newer source and consistent with other work), so 6 to 8 combat teams of of 10-14 would through basic math contradict this platoon statement. An ODST battalion using Combat Team Organization (assuming max and yes IK that is math) would be 896, and require EIGHT companies twice the number of a typical ODST battalion or UNSCMC battalion. A hard number for an ODST company is given through some numbers in Halo Silent Storm, where it is noted that 32 percent of an ODST company is 52 men. That gives us roughly 163 men for the mentioned company, a number only one lower than the first encyclopedia's UNSCMC company number and much larger than the given Combat Team Company size.
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| I do appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.
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| == Nice username :P == | | == Nice username :P == |
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| :Edits unnecessarily removing content from pages (especially when paired with a snippy comment) is more or less one step removed from vandalism. [[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 12:56, November 1, 2023 (EDT) | | :Edits unnecessarily removing content from pages (especially when paired with a snippy comment) is more or less one step removed from vandalism. [[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 12:56, November 1, 2023 (EDT) |
| Sorry, I am new and thought I could help. [[Special:Contributions/45.45.215.21|45.45.215.21]] 13:14, November 1, 2023 (EDT) | | Sorry, I am new and thought I could help. [[Special:Contributions/45.45.215.21|45.45.215.21]] 13:14, November 1, 2023 (EDT) |
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| == Spirit of Fire ==
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| Yo, just wanted to say that in the warthog variants section, I had corrected the fireball not having an embedded link that you reverted and had fixed the flame warthog embedded name which also reverted.
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| Regarding excessiveness. I like to argue that first off the Nandao and the Baselards show up in one or two cutscenes briefly and kinda need to be shown on the sheets since they make up a pretty crucial part of the ship's compliment, namely it's fighter screen. They're both also vehicles that rarely anyone knows even exists, again because they show up very briefly, ergo the need for a listing. The Cougar I thought would be interesting to include since it also just doesn't show up in the game (was cut last second) but shows up later in the spirits manual, making it's mention warranted imo since again barely anyone knows they exist and that the spirit had them onboard. The HAVOC variant V missles seemed interesting to know as well given they were a key armament of the actual ship too. The rest of the compliment I'll agree was excessive although I personally think at leats the UNSC press corp was an interesting addition. [[Special:Contributions/49.13.11.43|49.13.11.43]] 18:07, February 22, 2024 (EST)
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| :Thanks for pointing out the Warthog issues, I'll correct those shortly. As for many of the other things you added, they were plain wrong;
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| *Nandaos and Baselards have never been depicted in any visual medium, beyond the two illustrations featured in the 2022 Halo Encyclopedia. Interestingly, they ''were'' mentioned as active in the opening chapter of ''[[Halo: Divine Wind]]'' - but they have certainly never been depicted in a cutscene.
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| *The [[M35 Cougar]] does not appear in the [[Halo Wars manual]]; nor does its status as ''Halo Wars'' cut content mean that it is therefore canonically a part of the ship's complement.
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| *HAVOK nuclear weapons have never been stated in any canon source to be a part of the ship's weapons complement. Please provide a citation for this.
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| :Frankly, most of the additions you were adding seem like fan lore or flat-out made up, rather than based in any kind of canonical backing.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 06:08, February 23, 2024 (EST)
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