Editing Talk:Project CHRYSANTHEMUM

did all S-III companies recieve augemenations? we know for a fact that Gamma Company did but did the other 2 did? for some people i know say they do.--[[User:UNSC AI|UNSC AI]] 01:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
:All compaines recieved the first four augmentations, but the last three, only Gamma Company. -[[User:ED|ED]] 01:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

== Which Is better? ==

Does the Spartan II augmentation have better results than the Spartan III because I thought that the loss of the mortality rates would mean it wouldent be as good.[[User talk:TheBlueBlur|TheBlueBlur]] 19:22, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
*The CHRYSANTHEMUM augmentations really weren't any less effective than those of the SPARTAN-IIs, as they were really just a refinement upon the originals. However, the decreased mortality rate was certainly a benefit. As for Kurt's secret administration of illegal drugs during Gamma Company's procedures - that's another story. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;A government strong enough to give you everything you want...is strong enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 19:41, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

== In Comparison to Spartan-IIs ==

This whole section should be removed. It has no citations to official sources for all its claims, and Ghosts of Onyx clearly shows Spartan-IIIs operating well alongside a veteran S-II (Kurt-051), and working well with other Spartans, despite lacking Mjolnir armor.

I agree with the above, calling them inferior is stupid, i don't see the same mention of inferiority on the Spartan IV page. The III's were not in the same circumstances; had they been feilded in teams of 300 all equipped in Mjolnir armour and aged 20ish (so their augmentations would have settled and maybe increased somewhat)and had the same mortality rates in combat then yes, they would be inferior compared to handfuls of II's destroying cruisers and space stations....this however isn't the case. The III's are pretty much thrown out straight after augmentation and wear, in essence, glorified ODST armour. To my knowledge Tom and Lucy are the only III's to date of any appreciable age that can be compared; and they do just fine alongside the Spartans of Blue team without all the advantages of a super suit and as many miles on the clock. The enhancements (fair enough they don't all have 'perfect genes' - but do we truly know how much of an effect this has?) make them comparable, the level of training is comparable (arguably the III's is better than the II's as they had a II training them - who better to know how to train someone with their abilities?) - the only appreciable difference is Mjolnir.[[User:Qzmju123|Qzmju123]] ([[User talk:Qzmju123|talk]]) 14:05, 3 May 2013 (EDT)

I agree with the above as well. If there is no citation for it by now then it definitely should be removed. That's a pretty strong accusation to say that the Spartan IIIs are that inferior without any source for it at all.

Well, with two other supporters (an no citation after so long), I have removed to section. If someone can find an actual citation, I encourage them to undo the edit and provide a citation. [[User:Toa Freak|Toa Freak]] ([[User talk:Toa Freak|talk]]) 18:26, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

== Screening and compatibility ==

Regarding [http://www.halopedia.org/index.php?title=Project_CHRYSANTHEMUM&diff=1114278&oldid=1110685 this edit], I think the implication is that there was more to the SPARTAN-IIs' genetic screening than mere compatibility with the augmentations (though that was the primary concern). The filtering also had to do with the specific psychological traits that would help one adapt to the indoctrination and training, intelligence, etc, while the IIIs didn't get screened for things like behavioral stability. Technological advances definitely helped with the S-IIIs, but statements in ''Ghosts of Onyx'' suggest that Halsey could've drawn her candidates from a slightly wider gene pool but chose not to. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:27, 16 February 2015 (EST)

:I apologize that i didn't see this back when i made the edit. I kind of like the way it is now(says pretty much all it needs to say), but if you have quotes from Ghosts of Onyx, i wouldn't mind seeing them. The way i see it, like Toa Freak has also said on other forms of social media, the Spartan II candidates had to fall under that category of natural physical fitness and mental fortitude in order to survive their augmentations. She has a statement from the Fall of Reach that indirectly back that up as well. As for behavioral problems, i don't see why children who lost their families from glassing would be completely stable after that. I mean, the basis of the program was vengeful orphans who more than likely dealt trauma's no child can possibly endure unscathed on a mental level. That doesn't really seem like you can screen any candidates from that, that wouldn't be affected.  While yes, her program had budget cuts and the candidate number was cut in half 2 separate times, the failure rate more than likely would have been worse had she had more funding for more candidates.[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 15:17, 5 March 2015 (EST)

No need to apologize; you didn't see this because I posted it after you made the edit. I agree it's good the way it is (I decided it's best to be ambiguous since we aren't 100% sure), but let's a look at some quotes anyway. All are from ''Ghosts of Onyx'', as I'm not even going to bring up ''Glasslands'' and its statements about the S-IIIs' genetic criteria since those have no credibility whatsoever.

Page 46: ''"Here I detail the flaws of Halsey's undeniably 'successful' program," Ackerson said. "High cost, an absurdly small gene-candidate pool, inefficient training methodologies, far too few final units produced—not to mention her dubious ethics of using flash cloning procedures."''

Ackerson is biased and he's obviously trying to paint Halsey in the worst possible light, but the way he phrases "an absurdly small gene-candidate pool" suggests it was a choice, not an absolute necessity. If it were 100% necessary to be that picky, that part of his argument would have no credibility, a dangerous thing when you're trying to win over the Section III leadership.

Page 62: ''"The effort to train additional SPARTAN-IIs was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said. "There were other candidates within the gene pool, but they were out of synch with her age restriction protocols. And with the continuing war, her program funds were... diverted."''

Again, it's Ackerson talking, but there's no reason to assume he's lying. He doesn't mention psychological issues here but he does make a point that Halsey was picky about the candidates' age.

Page 63: ''"Kurt scanned the reader again. The new genetic selection protocol expanded the pool of candidates, but there were disturbing references to behavior problems in these less-than-ideal potential Spartans."''

This one is more vague. You could argue that the "new selection protocol" refers to technological advances, but I've always interpreted it as Ackerson broadening it for practical reasons. It's most likely a bit of both.

Page 67-68: ''"After poring over every detail of the new recruits' files, Kurt discovered they didn't match the perfect psychological and genetic markers set in Dr. Halsey's original selection protocols. Colonel Ackerson had warned him they had to draw from a "less statistically robust" group. These recruits wouldn't be anything like himself, John, Kelly, or any of the original SPARTAN-II candidates."''

Note that he says "had to draw", not that they ''could'' draw. When technological advances are brought up in ''Ghosts of Onyx'' it's always in reference to the washout rates, not the selection criteria; you'd think it would've been mentioned if it was a major factor. All this suggests, to me, that Halsey was being more picky than was absolutely necessary, though she had a point with this (i.e. making sure the Spartans would endure the insane mental and physical stress they were subjected to). True to his character, Ackerson had no such worries. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 15:53, 5 March 2015 (EST)


Yeah, Glasslands definitely lacked in the canonical research department. The writing on its own was decent though. As for your Ghosts of Onyx quotes.

Yeah, page 46 and 62 almost confirm that age requirements weren't an absolute necessity and just her preference. So the age portion is kind of a given it seems.

Page 63 is vague, much like the rest of Nylund's writing in that novel. I'm assuming this is so fans won't backlash from direct confirmation of Spartan III prowess. Personally i see it as both, because he has the means to draw from a wider selection criteria than the previous program. I always saw that as Ackerson broadening it because of technological advances. Without it, i can't picture him broadening the program like he did.

That quote from page 67-68 always baffled me for multiple reasons. It almost seems like Nylund put it there to present Kurt's doubts on the Spartan III program. He was trying to express how Kurt doubted how successful the kids could be. And surprising Kurt when they were successful. This is also backed up by a quote on page 92 of Ghosts of Onyx.

""''We don't know what they're capable of''," Kurt finally told Deep Winter. "''Stick with the by the-book drills and we'll never find out, either. But put them in an impossible situation, and maybe they'll surprise us''."

"''Short definition of a Spartan''," Mendez remarked.

That's what people had said about the SPARTAN-IIs who were the genetic cream of the
crop and wore MJOLNIR armor. They could do the impossible, and do it alone. The
SPARTAN-IIIs, though, would have to work together to survive. Be more family than fire
team. "

It was supposed emphasize how wrong Kurt was from the very beginning. Another thing i don't understand is why Ackerson said "had to draw" when canonically that isn't the case. They had candidates that met the requirements for the Spartan II program and Candidates that did not. Having the ability to pull from a wider pool of candidates doesn't mean they absolutely had to. A part of me wants to believe Ackerson told Kurt that so he wouldn't purposely change the selection criteria. I always thought that washout rates implied selection criteria, since Halsey has stated that her section criteria had to be completely specific to suit her original program on page 24 of the Fall of Reach Definitive Edition, all this even with her preference for age(i assume its so all of them can feel somewhat equal to each other on a mental level while training to increase kinship). Personally, in terms of age i can understand why she was strict, however that doesn't really negate her having strict genetic criteria for nothing other than survival. This can also be reinforced by all of the Spartan III candidates that survived harsher training than their predecessors with less strict genetic markers and varying ages. Though, i guess you really can't damage an already psychologically damaged individual.

Also, do you have an opinion on the section below?

[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 17:03, 5 March 2015 (EST)

:A couple of pertinent quotes from ''The Fall of Reach'':

:''"Number 117 had all the genetic markers she had flagged in her original study—he was as close to a perfect subject for her purposes as science could determine. But Dr. Halsey knew it would take more than theoretical perfection to make this project work. People were more than the sum of their genes. There were environmental factors, mutations, learned ethics, and a hundred other factors that could make this candidate unacceptable."'' (page 22, original edition)

:''"We screen these subjects for certain genetic markers,” she said. “Strength, agility, even predispositions for aggression and intellect. But we couldn’t remote test for everything. We don’t test for luck."'' (page 26, original edition)

:I've always held that yes, Halsey obviously screened her candidates for compatibility with the augmentations, but the psychological and possibly certain physiological aspects went beyond that. What purpose could a genius level intellect or a fast learning rate possibly serve if your body rejects the augmentations? Halsey is a perfectionist and she wanted the absolute best of the best to make sure the S-II program succeeded. To her, physical and emotional strength that went above bare necessity helped make sure that the kids would acclimatize to their training so that they'd get as far as the augmentations in the first place. Of course, the S-III program proved in the end that you could turn a more heterogeneous group into Spartans, but Kurt and Mendez had to work a lot harder to accomplish that. There's also a point to be made that ''all'' of the SPARTAN-III candidates did ''not'' actually make it through their harsher training. Alpha Company had 497 recruits and Beta had 418; both only accepted 300 for final training and augmentation (excluding the few special cases like Noble Team's Spartans). I want to address this point in particular:

:''"Another thing i don't understand is why Ackerson said "had to draw" when canonically that isn't the case. They had candidates that met the requirements for the Spartan II program and Candidates that did not. Having the ability to pull from a wider pool of candidates doesn't mean they absolutely had to."''
:—{{User|Kal825B}}

:Ultimately it boils down to this question: is there a source (quote, preferably, as page numbers vary between editions) that explicitly and unambiguously states that compatibility with the augmentations was the ''sole'' consideration in the S-IIs' selection criteria? Otherwise the idea that Kurt's statement goes against canon has no basis. Needless to say, I know the augmentations were the biggest factor and eliminated more than 99.99% of the human population, as they did with the IIIs, but what I'm saying is that the S-IIs' screening apparently went even further than that for additional reasons. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:29, 6 March 2015 (EST)

That's the quote i was referring to when i referenced the Fall of Reach. I always interpreted that quote with the idea that the specific physiological factors were what gave those children the intellects, fast learning rate, strength, etc. Its through the genes they possessed. She even addresses most of that in her second quote. Yeah, i was exaggerating with that, but i didn't feel like going back to look. The fact that 300 made it through in Alpha and Beta still proves the point though.

The only quote i can think of(off the top of my head) that unambiguously mentions(mainly because every other quote is for the most part ambiguous) that the candidates had to meet those specific genetic requirements in order to survive is in Halsey's journal February 15, 2511. 

"''Next-generation candidates "must" have more malleable, robust DNA structure/repair enzymes.''"

She says that quote in response to the dilemma that the Orion program had with "degenerative conditions" and "irreversible genetic fragmentation". That quote addresses that in order for the candidates to have a chance of coming out unscathed, she had to use the criteria she used to select her candidates. And since 42 out of 75 candidates either died or washed out, i think there is plenty of logical basis for assuming that it for the most part revolved around survival when it came to selection criteria.[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 08:38, 6 March 2015 (EST)

:I never claimed that Halsey's screening ''ignored'' compatibility with the augmentations — see the last paragraph of my last post, in which I estimated that the compatibility filtering alone excluded 99.99% or more of the human population. The point I'm disputing here is that the S-IIs' naturally nigh-superhuman intelligence, mental strength and physical attributes came as a byproduct of their compatibility. Since I don't recall any source unambiguously stating this is the case, it remains a matter of interpretation. And given the above quotes from ''Ghosts of Onyx'' and ''The Fall of Reach'', as well as the lack of evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe that while the S-IIs were screened for biological compatibility first and foremost, there were also other factors that went beyond that to make sure  the Spartans would become the best they could possibly be.

:As for 300 making it through Alpha and Beta? As I said, I also never claimed Halsey was 100% correct with her estimations. She just had the luxury of being able to pick the candidates that would be best suited for training and indoctrination physically and psychologically, from a slightly larger group of people who may have been compatible with the augmentations but weren't deemed to have satisfactory willpower, intelligence, learning rate, physical stature, etc. Meanwhile, Ackerson and the S-III program drew (or "had to draw") from that slightly larger group ("slightly larger" in this case being perhaps 00.01% of the total human population). I'm not trying to insinuate that the S-IIIs are inferior to the IIs or anything like that, just trying to clarify my stance that the S-IIs' genetic compatibility was merely the first and most important one in a series of selection criteria they had to fill, and that some of those additional criteria were probably not just a fortunate byproduct of the desired type of DNA structure or repair enzymes. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 09:28, 6 March 2015 (EST)


And that's not what i was trying to say. I'm saying that one can insinuate that from the extremely strict genetic criteria and very low success rate, that physiological compatibility was the main concern. My only problem with those quotes from Ghosts of Onyx and Fall of Reach is that they are so ambiguous that it can be interpreted my way as well(i was going to use most of them). Tbh, there really isn't much to the contrary for any stance. I mean, i was literally going to use the quotes you supplied in your discussion. In truth there is basis for both of ours. I just wanted to see why you thought that.

They technically were living proof of that if what you believe is the case. Like i said, perfectly fine with you thinking that, enough for both of us to believe what we want. Don't worry, never got that vibe from you.[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 18:00, 6 March 2015 (EST)

== The Canonicity of "A Spartan Will Rise"? ==

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs2TPo7z0sM What is the canonical status of this trailer?] I noticed this site likes to use it as a source for canon for Noble Six, however, the trailer narration also mentions that Jun's skills as a sniper are "unmatched". While there is no specific source that directly backs it up, there are general sources that indirectly back that up. If it is considered canon, shouldn't the performance section say "on par or better"?[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 08:47, 6 March 2015 (EST)

:I would go out on a limb and say that like most marketing material, we can consider that trailer canon unless contradicted by other sources. However, I'm not a fan of taking advantage of obviously generalized statements to create stark "vs". juxtapositions like this. While Jun's skills are no doubt uncanny in canon (gameplay's a different story though), until we see him top Linda's sniping feats I wouldn't take Halsey's word on him being better. It ''is'' curious Halsey would say that about someone she doesn't fully know, but such is the way of trailers I suppose. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:29, 6 March 2015 (EST)

I think it's safe to say it's canon. The dialogue at the end "So, you've made your choice? Yes, well, great minds do think alike" alludes to a later line in The Package where she tells Noble Six that Cortana has chosen him to be her carrier. So the trailer represents Halsey and Cortana looking at their candidates and deciding which one to trust the most. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:05, 6 March 2015 (EST)

If it is considered canon then that seems awfully hypocritical of this site to choose one part of it and discard another. Noble Six only had gameplay to back up what he's done in canon and he still has that quote from the trailer as a canon source. It's only logical to use that as a source for the performance section too and change what i said above.[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 08:47, 6 March 2015 (EST)

:I'm just saying it's better to be general rather than create strong comparisons which could potentially be disputed. Saying Six is "hyper lethal" is a super general statement; we don't even have a precise definition for what that rating means. Saying that one generation is better than the other based on a single claim about a single individual is a whole different matter. Versus debates are one thing and while I appreciate people using this wiki as a resource, I'd rather not have its articles weaponized to support one side or the other. I could, however, see the statements from the trailer being added to the article in their raw, unadulterated form. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 05:25, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

::This very discussion is kind of ridiculous since the whole trailer is full of hyperboles. It's pretty clear you don't have to take everything literally. You can say of somebody that their skills are "unmatched" although they are not necessarily the number one in their category. That's just the way we use language and figures of speech in everyday life. The speech marks make the word okay in the article and show that it doesn't have to be taken literally. I think modifying this sentence "because of the inconsistency" is creating one where there isn't. What will be next? Thel 'Vadamee being called the greatest Sangheili warrior in Covenant history? (just a made-up example). We don't have to take it literally. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 07:40, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

Thanks Jugus. Sorry for being a bother, it always came to mind whenever i looked at Six's page though(Recently because New Blood referenced him). [[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 20:17, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
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	::This very discussion is kind of ridiculous since the whole trailer is full of hyperboles. It's pretty clear you don't have to take everything literally. You can say of somebody that their skills are "unmatched" although they are not necessarily the number one in their category. That's just the way we use language and figures of speech in everyday life. The speech marks make the word okay in the article and show that it doesn't have to be taken literally. I think modifying this sentence "because of the inconsistency" is creating one where there isn't. What will be next? Thel 'Vadamee being called the greatest Sangheili warrior in Covenant history? (just a made-up example). We don't have to take it literally. [[User:Imrane-117\|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117\|talk]]) 07:40, 9 March 2015 (EDT)		::This very discussion is kind of ridiculous since the whole trailer is full of hyperboles. It's pretty clear you don't have to take everything literally. You can say of somebody that their skills are "unmatched" although they are not necessarily the number one in their category. That's just the way we use language and figures of speech in everyday life. The speech marks make the word okay in the article and show that it doesn't have to be taken literally. I think modifying this sentence "because of the inconsistency" is creating one where there isn't. What will be next? Thel 'Vadamee being called the greatest Sangheili warrior in Covenant history? (just a made-up example). We don't have to take it literally. [[User:Imrane-117\|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117\|talk]]) 07:40, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

	Thanks Jugus~~, that's all i ask~~. Sorry for being a bother, it always came to mind whenever i looked at Six's page though(Recently because New Blood referenced him). [[User:Kal825B\|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B\|talk]]) 20:17, 9 March 2015 (EDT)		Thanks Jugus. Sorry for being a bother, it always came to mind whenever i looked at Six's page though(Recently because New Blood referenced him). [[User:Kal825B\|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B\|talk]]) 20:17, 9 March 2015 (EDT)