Editing Talk:UNSC Point of No Return

"Also a second ship of the same class as Point of No Return was seen under construction by SII-051 Kurt and two other Spartans in the book Ghosts of Onyx."

Can we get citation for this? I don't recall it and I'm too exhausted to go through this particular scene in ''Halo: Ghosts of Onyx''.
:--'''[[User:Rotaretilbo|<font color="green">Master Gunnery Sergeant</font>]] [[w:c:halofanon:Hank J Wimbleton IV|<font color="green">Hank J Wimbleton IV</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Rotaretilbo|<font color="green">COM</font>]]</sup>''' 00:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

well in chapter 3 pages 49 - 56 it says that there was the frame scaffold, a slipspace generator was seen along with vast amounts of materials needed to create another ship, and I doubt that they would leave all of that there since they were so pressed for resources.

== Restart the Human Race ==

If this ship was so secret, I doubt that they ever expected the Covenant would find it.  So wouldn't it make sense that they keep both male and female crew as well as frozen embryos?  Once the Covenant had "exterminated" humanity they could recolonize a planet and save the human race!  This has literally no base or importance, just some interesting conjecture... [[User talk:Steve2frag|Steve2frag]] 20:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

:You mean a generational ship? Well, if they did it [[Marathon (Video Game Series)|wouldn't be the first time!]] -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=blue>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=blue>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=purple>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[w:c:halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=blue>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 09:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

== Which section? ==

In the article, it says that the PoNR was a mobile command post for ONI Section Two. Should it be Section Three? The black ops section needing a mobile command post I can easily understand, but the propaganda section needing one strikes me as a little odd. -- [[User talk:SFH|SFH]] 15:34, 29 November 2010 (EST)

:It's Section Three, people present there (gibson, rich, ackerson, surgeon) are from section three, and in ghosts of onyx it is said to be the mobil command for NAVSPECWEP section three, that we know means ONI sec 3. [[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]]) 15:31, 4 July 2014 (EDT)

::NAVSPECWEP has a division called Group 3 which is different from ONI's Section 3. These are not referring to one another. Group 3 of NAVSPECWEP contains the Spartan-IIs. Group 2 of the same outfit contains the ODSTs. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 16:55, 4 July 2014 (EDT)

:::they are in some way referring to one another. section three of ONI has "influence" on section three of navspecwep, "Some NAVSPECWAR units fall under the operational supervision of Section Three within the Office of Naval Intelligence.". In fact the spartan were put under NAVSPECWEP command so that ONI sec 3 could still keep control on them. Plus, when in the ghost of Onyx it is said that point of no return is mobile command of navspecwep section three then we see there is "a ONI section three people meeting", intending that people who command section three of navspecwep are from ONI sec 3 and also in other situations we see ONI section three operatives working on the ship (surgeon). "Point of No Return was the wartime field command and control platform for the UNSC '''Office of Naval Intelligence, NavSpecWep Section Three'''; page after is about the meeting with a presentation of gibson and rich as "section three". Halopedia lists them as ONI sec 3, implicitly intending that section three of NAVSPECWEP is, in some way, more or less, sec 3 of ONI, or at least that navspecwep sec 3 high ranked officers are from ONI sec 3. And more: navspecwep/navspecwar is not ONI itself, but navspecwep sec 3 is ONI as above in bold, if it's ONI it's for sure section 3, due to the nature of it's work.
:::I can paste many posts from users that believe it like me, this is from halopedia: "..Section III's NavSpecWar and NavSpecWep departments.." (specops306, admin) or waypoint "Section 3 refers to ONI section 3, home of navspecwep, the SPARTANS, and other ONI Black Ops"
:::I know it can be hard to understand, because of confusion and lack of clearness in the official canon, but even forgetting about navspecwep, there is no evidence of point of no return being section two, while there is tons about it being section three. [[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]]) 17:34, 4 July 2014 (EDT)

::I agree the UNSC ''Point of No Return'' is under ONI Sec. 3, I was only making the clarification that NAVSPECWEP Group 3 and ONI Sec. 3 are different entities. One is in the Naval Intelligence group and the other is in a different branch of NAVSPECWARCOM. Group 1 contains highly trained sniper operatives, Group 2 are the ODSTs and Group 3 are Spartan-IIs. ONI may at times have some of NAVSPECWEPs members assigned to its use, such as Kurt in this case. There may be some misunderstanding of the UNSC's organization with aspects of what Halopedia has cataloged so far. I have worked in the past with 343i on fleshing this organization out and I'm continuing to do so as they get time to correspond. I have a comprehensive chart but it still needs tweaking. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 18:38, 4 July 2014 (EDT)

:::yes, the important for this article is that we agree about point of no return being more related to section three then two or others. Still I think I made some good points about navspecwep-oni, there is confusion in the canon, specifically in nylund writing as he seems to consider navspecwep sec 3 part of, or related to, ONI sec 3. I'll still keep on believing, like many others, that navspecwep section three is under supervision or control or is in some way part of ONI sec 3, or at least it was before the fall of reach, as Nylund's writing suggests this. But obviously it never passed in my mind to write this in the halopedia. [[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]]) 02:56, 5 July 2014 (EDT)

::::I'm currently re-reading ''Halo: The Fall of Reach'', and in Chapter 24 there is a discussion between the Master Chief and a Navy officer. The Chief says "''Orders that came directly from NavSpecWep, Section Three.''" (When he explains who ordered him to blow up Côte d'Azur) Then, "''Section Three''," the woman muttered, "''which is ONI... it figures.''" So, if I understand correctly, she is implying that NavSpecWep Section Three is somehow receiving orders from ONI Section Three, '''but''' both are different... right? It's rather... implicit, I guess. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 17:26, 10 July 2014 (EDT)
:::::Hey I just came here to write exactly what you did. She says NavSpecWeap Section Three is ONI, that's what matters. We have to check if it's still there in the definitive edition. As for the orders confusion stuff It's complicated, chief received orders from section three navspecweap, stanforth specifically, who was there on leviathan and was cooperating with parangosky for this operation:bravado which we know nearly anything about. After the battle an oni comitee at camp hatchcock starts making questions about what happened at sigma octanus, paransogky tells stanforth not to worry about them but "Just make sure your folks aren’t withholding critical intel when it matters most.". So we see there is some conflict between this commission and stanforth-parangosky, that are plotting and keeping something secret. [[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]])
::::ONI has had some influence on Spartan deployment as they are under Halsey for the most part and she works for ONI Section 3. The conundrum may be that the Spartans area  part of NAVSPECWEP in something called Group 3, rather than Section 3. We know of a Group 1 and a Group 2 as well that are under NAVSPECWEP. That's not the same as saying that NAVSPECWEP is a part of ONI. NAVSPECWEP is a part of NAVSPECWARCOM (Naval Special Warfare Command), and that command is under NAVCOM alongside NAVLOGCOM and FLEETCOM. ONI is under NAVCOM as well somewhere, but NAVSPECWEP is not under ONI. I think a distinction needs to be made between the actual hierarchical organization and how some commands can borrow personnel or assets from other commands at times. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 19:57, 22 August 2014 (EDT)
:::::The dialogue is very clear, it says that navspecweap section three is ONI. This is coherent with all the rest of the research I made in the posts above. But why insist with this group three? Section three exists and maybe it's different from group three. Group three could be just for the S-II and navspecweap section three something more. This said your hierarchical organization can be exact, but navspecweap section three could fall under ONI not in an official way but as result of a temporary collaboration of some kind, they can share resources and personnel and maybe even the same head commanders or ONI could have acquired in some way the navspecweap section three even if it's not officially part of it's control.[[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]])

::::I've uploaded a sample of a massive UNSC organizational chart I have had for several years which gets tweaked with new info as it comes along. This is the portion I have under Naval Special Warfare Command (NAVSPECWARCOM). The gray-boxed items in my chart represent things which must exist but haven't been explicitly named yet. You can see the Group 1 which is evident in the Sgt Johnson Operation: Kaleidoscope graphic. Group 2, which are the ODSTs as evident on Bngie's exterpt on the Joyride ODST figure from Halo 2, and Group 3, which includes the Spartan-IIs (Pre-Spartan IV anyway). The Encyclopedia, page 64 shows that NAVCOM has 3 main commands: FLEETCOM, NAVLOGCOM, and NAVSPECWEP. Then on page 65 it says the Master Chief is attached to this "group". It also indicates on page 67 that ONI is the information gathering arm of NAVCOM, separating it from the other commands I just listed. It's missing that NAVSPECWARCOM is above NAVSPECWEP. This command is in The Fall of Reach, page 232 where it refers to Naval Special Warfare's command and that the Spartans belong to it. NAVSPECWAR is also referenced in the aforementioned Operation : Kaleidoscope. Here's the link to my NAVSPECWAR portion of the chart: http://msfm.seryan.com/specialpics/UNSC-org-sample.jpg -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 19:12, 4 September 2014 (EDT)

::::But does the words "group 3" ever come out in the canon? Because we have seen NavSpecWep section three many times. Then what I'm saying is that Navspecwep section three is, in some way, ONI, even if officially it's from another service tree. And there is heavy and strong evidence for this.
::::Then there is this, to make everything more complicated:
"After the meeting, a new mandate had become the official secret policy of Fleet Command’s Special
Operations Command—the parent organization for Naval Special Warfare, the Spartans’ service branch. ONI had new marching orders: to step up funding of Intel and reconnaissance missions by an order of magnitude. Small stealth ships were to be deployed to search remote systems and find where the Covenant were based. And Dr. Halsey had finally received the green light to unleash MJOLNIR." "[...]opens several new opportunities for the NavSpecWep—” 
::::So at an ONI meeting they decide for the policy of a "secret" branch of FLEETCOM, the SPECOPSCOM, that is above NAVSPECWAR, and this policy influences ONI's and NavSpecWep's work. You see it's not so compartmentalized: ONI (sec three specifically) people decide for what I think is a only decisional and not operational branch of fleetcom, whose politics influence directly ONI and NavSpecWep. ONI shouldn't be able to directly decide for parts of fleetcom or for NAVSPECWAR as they are outside it's official control. However they did. [[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]])

:::::The [[http://www.halopedia.org/Data_Drop/Five|Reach Data Drop 5]] shows the Master Chief is part of "UNSC Navy, Naval Special Weapons". There's no mention of ONI in there. The Spartan IIIs and Jorge from Team Noble are explicitly mentioned to be from SPECWAR/Group 3 in almost all of the Auntie Dot security feed data in the cutscenes of Reach, plus on Jorge's dog tags. The Encyclopedia, p.65 states that NAVSPECWEP "technically answers to both NAVCOM and UNICOM". Again, no mention of ONI. I can see where you're coming from though. Your reference to SPECOPSCOM is used only once and then forgotten, similar to the onetime use of Military Intelligence Command. 343i will need to make this more explicit for everything to make logical sense. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 17:21, 5 September 2014 (EDT)

::::::I'm not saying NavSpecWeap is officially under ONI, i agree with your chain. Group 3 is SpecWar not Navspecwar, in fact noble is from the army and not the navy. The third section of NavSpecWep in some way became part of ONI, even if not officially in it's service branch/tree or whatever. It's said clearly in a dialogue of the fall of reach and has also a lot of evidence in all the canon that I pointed out before, so It's like that, no matter whatever you think, I'm sorry. [[User:Codename: SURGEON|Codename: SURGEON]] ([[User talk:Codename: SURGEON|talk]])

:::::OK, I was really just getting at official on the chart organization, not how they are sometimes used. As we know Col. Holland is part of Unified Special Warfare (UNISPECWAR), yet he borrows Spartan-IIIs from the Navy branch as his team. With Group 3, I was getting at UNISPECWAR had a group 3 just as NAVSPECWAR does. Almost all evidence supports that the subunits under a SPECWAR heading are called Groups Wee see it in both Army and Navy. The first is Team Noble's outfit, the other the Spartan-IIs. We know that Spartan-IIs are under NAVSPECWAR from p.232 of The Fall of Reach. We also know that the Spartans are not a part of NAVSPECWAR Group 1 (Johnson's sniper assignment with Project Orion), or with NAVSPECWAR Group 2 (which are the ODSTs). Group 3 is therefore logical. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 11:28, 7 September 2014 (EDT)

== UNSC Point of No Return at Gao in 2553? ==

In the beginning of Chapter 5 of HALO: Last Light, Casille is describing the UNSC task force in orbit over Gao.
@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 Can we get citation for this? I don't recall it and I'm too exhausted to go through this particular scene in ''Halo: Ghosts of Onyx''.
-:--'''[[User:Rotaretilbo|<font color="green">Master Gunnery Sergeant</font>]] [[halofanon:Hank J Wimbleton IV|<font color="green">Hank J Wimbleton IV</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Rotaretilbo|<font color="green">COM</font>]]</sup>''' 00:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
+:--'''[[User:Rotaretilbo|<font color="green">Master Gunnery Sergeant</font>]] [[w:c:halofanon:Hank J Wimbleton IV|<font color="green">Hank J Wimbleton IV</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Rotaretilbo|<font color="green">COM</font>]]</sup>''' 00:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 well in chapter 3 pages 49 - 56 it says that there was the frame scaffold, a slipspace generator was seen along with vast amounts of materials needed to create another ship, and I doubt that they would leave all of that there since they were so pressed for resources.
@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 If this ship was so secret, I doubt that they ever expected the Covenant would find it.  So wouldn't it make sense that they keep both male and female crew as well as frozen embryos?  Once the Covenant had "exterminated" humanity they could recolonize a planet and save the human race!  This has literally no base or importance, just some interesting conjecture... [[User talk:Steve2frag|Steve2frag]] 20:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
-:You mean a generational ship? Well, if they did it [[Marathon (Video Game Series)|wouldn't be the first time!]] -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=blue>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=blue>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=purple>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=blue>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 09:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
+:You mean a generational ship? Well, if they did it [[Marathon (Video Game Series)|wouldn't be the first time!]] -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=blue>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=blue>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=purple>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[w:c:halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=blue>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 09:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 == Which section? ==
@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 In the beginning of Chapter 5 of HALO: Last Light, Casille is describing the UNSC task force in orbit over Gao.
-<blockquote>
-In the center of the formation drifted a matte-black vessel three times the length of its escorts.
-</blockquote>
-<blockquote>
-The big vessel in the middle had the stepped hull of one of the UNSC’s mighty Marathon-class cruisers
-</blockquote>
-The Point of No Return is the only stealthed cruiser I'm aware of, but using it in such a public way would undermine its secretiveness. [[User:ThatOneDude|ThatOneDude]] ([[User talk:ThatOneDude|talk]]) 02:06, 3 April 2018 (EDT)
-:There was a ''Marathon''-class vessel in Gao orbit. It was not the ''Point of No Return''. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 22:46, 3 April 2018 (EDT)