Editing Talk:Skirmish on Mona Lisa

==Before or after the Battle of Earth==
Rather than risk an edit war, I'll bring in some valid points for both sides of the argument.

===Support (After High Charity's arrival)===
#It took a Halcyon-class cruiser three weeks to get to Installation 04 from Reach; other UNSC vessels could make such timing; with John returning to UEG space in early September, a prison ship and prowler would arrive between the end of September and early October.
#The events of October 20 are not known to the ''Red Horse'' crew, showing that they had left before then - we have at least a 20 day period where the story could have happened. As it would take time to travel to Threshold, even an early-October trip would mean that they would arrive during the invasion.
#Based on ''Halo: First Strike'', High Charity was on its way to Threshold in September, and a scout party led by the ''Ascendent Justice'' was already present during the Battle of Installation 04; this suggests that the capital world isn't too far away. The plot of ''Halo 2'' establishes that after Regret leaves for Installation 05, High Charity is notified and makes its way. Being Regret's discovery, High Charity could not have left for Installation 05 earlier than November 2nd.
#Before the invasion of Earth, we see that High Charity is maintaining its position near the wreckage of Installation 04 while it puts Thel 'Vadamee on trial and puts down a heretical movement. This establishes it as being present for some time ''before'' October 20.
#Because of the above points, the weak Covenant presence would suggest that this is, indeed, after High Charity left with its defence fleet.

===Oppose (Before High Charity's arrival)===
#As the ''Red Horse's'' presence at Threshold was suggested to have been simply to investigate ONI's loss of contact with the ''Mona Lisa'', we can conclude that both ships were travelling ''faster'' than the ''Pillar of Autumn''. With the space between mid-September and October 20 being around five weeks, we're dealing with three trips (The Mona's trip to Threshold; their failed return to Earth and the Red Horse's trip to Threshold) of two or fewer weeks, each. Therefore, we can easily say that it happened in early October.
#If High Charity is here, why wasn't the Mona Lisa destroyed?

===Conclusion===
Based on points from either side, I'm going to have to go with the "support" side; the Covenant kept a major presence in the system until leaving for Installation 05. However, there is the matter of the Mona Lisa not being destroyed. I feel this can be solved by the story, itself, as well as ''Halo: First Strike'' and ''Halo: Ghosts of Onyx''. In all three we see UNSC ships lowering their activities in-system to avoid detection from the Covenant, and the prowler in GoO managed to hide from the same ridiculously-sized fleet it seems that the ''Mona Lisa'' would have encountered.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 15:42, 25 November 2011 (EST)

:I agree with the After side too. The time period between ''Halo 1'' and ''2'' seems far too short for the ships' arrival, even with a faster slipspace drive. The Autumn too was upgraded to its highest potential for RED FLAG, so why leave it with a sub-standard slipspace drive? But the largest evidence piece is the fact that High Charity was already on its way to Installation 04 right at the end of ''Halo 1'', why wouldn't they be, since it's only the fulfillment of their entire religion discovered? High Charity could make the trip from 04 to 05 within hours, therefore the skirmish must have happened after it left, not before it arrived. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:08, 25 November 2011 (EST)
::The Autumn's drive is likely superb. But, it is '''not''' a matter of the Slipspace drive itself. If you'll read [[Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine#Functionality|this article]] you'll realize something I didn't realize until recently,: it isn't the slipspace drive, it's the engines. Since the prowler is about 10% the mass of the ''Autumn''... who knows. It's plausible either way. Personally, I doubt this takes place before High Charity got there. Just because it's technically possible for them to arrive there in time does not mean it's what would happen. There would have to be time to organize the mission: both the one the Mona Lisa apparently went on and the one the Red Horse went on. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 18:17, 25 November 2011 (EST)

:::Or you could argue that the ''Autumn'' is faster because its greater mass is in part to its larger engines, allowing greater speeds. Cortana mentions it traveling near light-speed velocity at one point in ''CE''. But it could go either way. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 11:35, 26 November 2011 (EST)

::::She was referring to the velocity the Autumn was travelling at ''in'' slipspace, where the basic laws of physics are skewed.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 12:09, 26 November 2011 (EST)

:::Exactly. But it's noted on the article that Slipspace itself does not provide any thrust or propulsion to the ships inside, therefore the ''Autumn'' must have created that thrust itself, meaning it could travel at near light-speed velocity. This shows that the Prowler likely isn't faster, so it wouldn't arrive at Installation 04 any faster than a 3 week journey as well. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 13:11, 26 November 2011 (EST)

:I will have to agree that the skirmish happening ''after'' High Charity and its fleet left is the most logical conclusion, regardless of what the Waypoint introduction says. Even ''The Mona Lisa'' itself seems to support this; there is a reference in the story that the Covenant had been present in the system in large numbers before leaving in pursuit of a "high value target" just before the ''Red Horse'' arrived. Since it's apparent the Fleet of Particular Justice never pursued the stolen ''Ascendant Justice'', the most logical conclusion is that this refers to High Charity and its defense fleet. As said above, the ''Mona Lisa'' and the ''Red Horse'' arriving before October 20 isn't ''impossible'', but there is evidence to suggest the Covenant maintained a heavy presence in the system, while in ''The Mona Lisa'', there's just a single ship left. I guess we'll just have to ignore the Waypoint logline and assume it happens after October 20, while mentioning the discrepancy in a note. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:14, 26 November 2011 (EST)

::I'm sure I've read about other material considered to "bridge the gap", that play little revelance to the events of either work, and are based entirely within one of the work's storyline, rather than the gap. Uprising, for example, takes place entirely ''within'' the Halo 2 time period all thanks to that epilogue (October 20; November 2-3; November 17). In reality, it bridges the gap between the second half of the Halo 2 plot (the Delta Halo stuff; November 2-3) and the start of ''Halo 3'' (November 17). The Mona Lisa bridges the gap between 1 and 2 only if you are referring to the second part in the Halo 2 storyline (November 2-3 - thank you, slipspace travel >.> ). Basically, what I'm saying is that whenever you read "bridge the gap", don't take it literally.

::Also, I'm under the impression that the unusual speed that the two ships must have been travelling at and the disappearence of High Charity was really an oversight by the authors (like UNSC ships jumping from Earth to Onyx in a few hours; luckily the Installation 05 trip was explained away)..... kinda awkward when you take into light that a number of authors read Halopedia for their information.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 09:27, 26 November 2011 (EST)

:::I recall that ''Stalingrad''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s battle group got to Onyx within hours because they followed the ''Bloodied Spirit'''s slipspace wake. Still, it's fair to note that there's an unusual amount of similar slipspace shortcutting happening in ''Ghosts of Onyx'' to get the characters where they need to be.

:::As for High Charity's absence in ''The Mona Lisa'', it might have been an oversight, but I'm not sure whether the authors themselves intended to have ''The Mona Lisa'' take place between ''Halo CE'' and ''Halo 2'' (it's never mentioned in the story itself); it may have just been someone from the Waypoint crew who didn't consider it thoroughly enough. The ''Red Horse'' crew are aware that there used to be a larger Covenant fleet in the system, which seems to suggest the authors indeed intended the story to take place after High Charity left. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:08, 26 November 2011 (EST)
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 :::As for High Charity's absence in ''The Mona Lisa'', it might have been an oversight, but I'm not sure whether the authors themselves intended to have ''The Mona Lisa'' take place between ''Halo CE'' and ''Halo 2'' (it's never mentioned in the story itself); it may have just been someone from the Waypoint crew who didn't consider it thoroughly enough. The ''Red Horse'' crew are aware that there used to be a larger Covenant fleet in the system, which seems to suggest the authors indeed intended the story to take place after High Charity left. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:08, 26 November 2011 (EST)
-== "Pyrrhic" victory ==
-I object to this being classified as a pyrrhic victory for the UNSC. This description supposes the alternative outcome of allowing the Flood to spread throughout the galaxy would be more strategically sound.