Editing Talk:Joyous Exultation

==Rename==
Waypoint refers to it as "Saepon'kal". Should we rename the article, like we did with Decided Heart? - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 16:26, 10 November 2014 (EST)
:We probably should. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 16:39, 10 November 2014 (EST)
I believe we should. It's a Covenant world and we should spread the knowledge that we now know it's true name.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 16:42, 10 November 2014 (EST)
:If we go by the example of Decided Heart, then probably, though I'd like to question this practice—the current title has been used in more material than a single online reference document, has actual meaning and is and easier to remember than the alien name. Most of our Covenant titles and other items are translations anyway; if we knew and used the "true" names of everything all of our Covenant rank, tech, weapon, etc. pages would be unrecognizable, apostrophe-filled gibberish. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 23:59, 10 November 2014 (EST)

We could just keep this restricted to planetary objects. It would be nice to have a consistency in the names of Covenant worlds instead of having half of them named using human words and half named using Sangheili worlds.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 18:18, 11 November 2014 (EST)
:This would be the better option, that is, to restrict only to planets. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  06:37, 15 November 2014 (EST)
::So it there are no other objections, shall we move it? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 16:08, 16 November 2014 (EST)
::: I think this question is intricately connected to whether the [[Maginot Line]] should stay as it is or be renamed according to its Forerunner name. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 19:29, 16 November 2014 (EST)
::::I was thinking of the same thing... these things tend to be a slippery slope. First you're naming aircraft by their common name and one day you notice you've replaced all weapon and vehicle titles with their "casual" counterparts. I'm personally more inclined toward moving the Malurok page back to Decided Heart, though it isn't really a deal-breaker for me either way. Since most seem to agree with moving this page we might just have to proceed with that. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:47, 20 November 2014 (EST)
:::::Wiki practice is that we defer to the most commonly used/most memorable name. A similar example to this would be Earth and Mars, where we use the human names for them as opposed to the Forerunner names. Renaming the page in my opinion, would only confuse readers.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 11:16, 20 November 2014 (EST)

Yep, Joyous Exultation should stay as-is. I also have no objection to going back to Decided Heart. Calling it Malurok seemed like a good idea at the time but our "English trumps indigenous" naming scheme ''does'' work better. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 11:36, 20 November 2014 (EST)

:I disagree, I think moving the article is the way to go. It's the same rationale behind renaming species to "their" names rather than keeping the more recognisable titles - accuracy, over recognisability. As long as there are sufficient redirects, I don't think there should be many problems in finding what people are looking for. Personally, I'm uncomfortable moving "Maginot Line" to "Jat-Krula protected boundary," but objectively I think it's better to defer to the most recent sources of canon as representing the most current views of the franchise holders. So far, we haven't faced the issue of renaming things like weapons or vehicles to their Covenant names since we don't know them, and if we ever do I might revise my opinion. But at the moment, I'm leaning towards renaming this to "Saepon'kal." -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 05:31, 23 November 2014 (EST)

::My issue with the Maginot Line is that it's not the real name, it comes from a real world name related to WWII, and was obviously not the designation used by the Forerunners. I would revise my opinion only if "Maginot Line" was also in the ''Forerunner Saga'', along its Forerunner counterpart. (I have no idea whether it's used or not.) But as I said, it's my ''opinion''... Moving to Jat-Krula sounds kind of weird to me. As for Malurok/Decided Heart, I have to say that I'm kind of torn between the two of them. I do feel that original (read ''alien'') names should be preferred (as in Sangheili, Unggoy and so on), but if things like ''High Charity'', Ghost, Banshee, Plasma rifle, ''CCS''-class battlecruiser, etc, ever get their own Covenant/Sangheili names revealed... I would most likely reject us moving the pages towards their "true" names (unless they end up being forced into the games' canon). But for planets... I don't know. Most Covenant colonies that we know of have a Covenant name. Should we prefer uniformity? Yet, a good question would be: was the English name used in a Covenant context or a human one? From what I can remember, both Joyous Exultation and Decided Heart were used in Covenant context. That should be enough for us to keep the English name without feeling bad about not using "the names used by the Covenant". (However, this could also be said for the Covenant sometimes using English names for their species, like "Elites", "Brutes", etc.) [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 05:58, 23 November 2014 (EST)

:::Both Joyous Exultation and Decided Heart were originally used in a strictly Covenant context (Voro 'Mantakree's POV in ''Ghosts of Onyx'' and the Covenant/Ripa 'Moramee portion of ''Halo Wars: Genesis'', respectively). ''Halo: Silentium'' mentions "Maginot Line" in a bracketed "translator note" to leave no ambiguity as to what "Jat-Krula" is. But I agree there is some rationale for using "Jat-Krula protected boundary" or simply "Jat-Krula" due to the very specific real-world connection of the translated name. But then again, "Promethean" and plenty of other Forerunner-related names are no different. As for the Covenant species, ''Broken Circle'' even mentions that the Sangheili were referred to as Elites by the San'Shyuum and vice versa. Make of that what you will. I personally have no issue with occasionally using the human names for the sake of variety. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 09:41, 23 November 2014 (EST)

I still support the thread being renamed to Saepon'kal. Like how High Charity should be renamed to the covenant name if we ever learn it. That is because we know almost all covenant worlds by the Sangheili names and not the human ones and we should be consistent. Though the covenant name thing should be restricted to covenant species and celestial bodies.
--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 13:43, 23 December 2014 (EST)

== Move ==

If one wants to know what my opinion is about renaming the page, I'll refer you to my earlier comment. But as far as this goes, if the page is to be renamed, there needs to be a clear consensus. The page protection will also remain in place until such a decision has been made.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 20:14, 13 March 2015 (EDT)


Reasons for the article to be renamed to Saepon'kal:
1)Salia and Malhiem are Sangheili names and refer to objects in the same system
2)Saepon'kal is a covenant world and not a human one. Saepon'kal makes identifying it as covie easier.
3)343i industries tends to prefer Sangheili names over human names. Here is a list of examples:
Karava
Malurok (mentioned 2 as Malurok and once as Decided Heart)
Saepon'kal (mentioned once as Saepon'kal and once as Joyous Exultation)
Banshee names: Uztet'sKelln and QezoY'asabu used first and english translation of the second one added in parenthesis.
Even human worlds have been given names by the covenant which can be found in books.
4)If we found out out that Sanghelios meant XXXX then we wouldn't be renamed to XXXX.
5)We use the covenant names for the covie species instead of the human nicknames.

General rule:
I believe that the general rule should be that all astronomical objects (stars, planets, systems) should be referred to with their Covenant/Forerunner names in articles, depending on who controls the planet/who made the planet. The same should be true for species names.
When it comes to all other objects we could use the most common designation.
Eg:
Uztet'sKelln remains the same because their no translation for it.
Ossoona remains the same because that is the most common name for the rank.
QezoY'asabu remains the same because 343i showed preference to this name by placing the translation of it in parenthesis.
Covenant ship articles use the UNSC designation because that is the most common one.

But
Joyous Exultation is renamed to Saepon'kal because it's a planet and most of the Covenant planets are known by their covie names.
Sangheili is NOT renaimed to Elite because the Sangheili are a covenant species, even though they are referred to as Elites in most of the halo lore.
--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 20:28, 13 March 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I may change my mind and lean towards keeping it as Joyous Exultation. The new Covenant names are always more and more difficult to remember. Sangheili, Unggoy and such Covenant names aren't that recent, if I remember correctly, they had been around ever since ''Halo: CE'', though they weren't really used until years later. I also want to say that there is a difference between human nicknames and human translations. On the one hand, Grunt, Brute, Elite, etc, are human nicknames, so we shouldn't rely on them too much (though I agree with Jugus, we shouldn't have cleansed them from Halopedia, as was done recently). On the other hand, names such as Joyous Exultation (or even High Charity) aren't human nicknames, they are merely translations (just like Obsidian Wing), and they are actually used in Covenant context (''Ghosts of Onyx''). So they are still more legitimate than, say, Brute or Elite (although recently, it has been hinted that the Covenant are also familiar with the "human nicknames", to some extent). So there are two different kinds of "human" names, some are neutral translations, others are not. When they are neutral translations, I think it should be okay to use them, especially when it's hard to remember the alien name. There might be exceptions in the future depending on how 343i decides to handle these naming issues, but so far I'll keep with that. As for names such as Sanghelios, Doisac, Balaho, Eayn, etc. They are arguably more "established" as such, so if Balaho is ever revealed to mean "Blue Mist" or something, I think we should simply keep with the original name. Joyous Exultation plays a minor role in the universe, so it doesn't really hurt to keep its English name. Moreover, if ''High Charity'' was ever revealed to be ''Tuiok'aqom'' or whatever name they come up with, I think everybody would agree that we should keep ''High Charity''. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 06:03, 14 March 2015 (EDT)
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	:Actually, I may change my mind and lean towards keeping it as Joyous Exultation. The new Covenant names are always more and more difficult to remember. Sangheili, Unggoy and such Covenant names aren't that recent, if I remember correctly, they had been around ever since ''Halo: CE'', though they weren't really used until years later. I also want to say that there is a difference between human nicknames and human translations. On the one hand, Grunt, Brute, Elite, etc, are human nicknames, so we shouldn't rely on them too much (though I agree with Jugus, we shouldn't have cleansed them from Halopedia, as was done recently). On the other hand, names such as Joyous Exultation (or even High Charity) aren't human nicknames, they are merely translations (just like Obsidian Wing), and they are actually used in Covenant context (''Ghosts of Onyx''). So they are still more legitimate than, say, Brute or Elite (although recently, it has been hinted that the Covenant are also familiar with the "human nicknames", to some extent). So there are two different kinds of "human" names, some are neutral translations, others are not. When they are neutral translations, I think it should be okay to use them, especially when it's hard to remember the alien name. There might be exceptions in the future depending on how 343i decides to handle these naming issues, but so far I'll keep with that. As for names such as Sanghelios, Doisac, Balaho, Eayn, etc. They are arguably more "established" as such, so if Balaho is ever revealed to mean "Blue Mist" or something, I think we should simply keep with the original name. Joyous Exultation plays a minor role in the universe, so it doesn't really hurt to keep its English name. Moreover, if ''High Charity'' was ever revealed to be ''Tuiok'aqom'' or whatever name they come up with, I think everybody would agree that we should keep ''High Charity''. [[User:Imrane-117\|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117\|talk]]) 06:03, 14 March 2015 (EDT)		:Actually, I may change my mind and lean towards keeping it as Joyous Exultation. The new Covenant names are always more and more difficult to remember. Sangheili, Unggoy and such Covenant names aren't that recent, if I remember correctly, they had been around ever since ''Halo: CE'', though they weren't really used until years later. I also want to say that there is a difference between human nicknames and human translations. On the one hand, Grunt, Brute, Elite, etc, are human nicknames, so we shouldn't rely on them too much (though I agree with Jugus, we shouldn't have cleansed them from Halopedia, as was done recently). On the other hand, names such as Joyous Exultation (or even High Charity) aren't human nicknames, they are merely translations (just like Obsidian Wing), and they are actually used in Covenant context (''Ghosts of Onyx''). So they are still more legitimate than, say, Brute or Elite (although recently, it has been hinted that the Covenant are also familiar with the "human nicknames", to some extent). So there are two different kinds of "human" names, some are neutral translations, others are not. When they are neutral translations, I think it should be okay to use them, especially when it's hard to remember the alien name. There might be exceptions in the future depending on how 343i decides to handle these naming issues, but so far I'll keep with that. As for names such as Sanghelios, Doisac, Balaho, Eayn, etc. They are arguably more "established" as such, so if Balaho is ever revealed to mean "Blue Mist" or something, I think we should simply keep with the original name. Joyous Exultation plays a minor role in the universe, so it doesn't really hurt to keep its English name. Moreover, if ''High Charity'' was ever revealed to be ''Tuiok'aqom'' or whatever name they come up with, I think everybody would agree that we should keep ''High Charity''. [[User:Imrane-117\|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117\|talk]]) 06:03, 14 March 2015 (EDT)
	343i seems to prefer covenant names over UNSC. EG: Khael'mothka. I suggest we stick to that and for the sake of consistency rename the article to Saepon'kal. It's not hard to remember, certainly easier than most human worlds/weapons/vehicle designations. It's also an alien planet and it would be better for its name to reflect that.--[[User:The Master Builder\|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder\|talk]]) 12:56, 5 June 2015 (EDT)