Talk:M99 Stanchion: Difference between revisions

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:See [[Wikipedia:Recoilless rifle|here]]. The real-world variant is also not recoilless, but is called such due to the much-reduced recoil its design features. This is much the same-the lack of a chemical propellant also exiting the barrel reduces the recoil significantly. And sources often trump real-world science here because, well, it is science fiction. The NOVA bomb, for instance, cannot realistically work the way it's described.--[[User:D9328|D9328]] ([[User talk:D9328|talk]]) 11:40, May 28, 2019 (EDT)d9328

Yes I'm aware of the real world definition of a recoilless rifle

A recoilless rifle is a specific type of weapon, the modern definition of which precludes magnetic accelerator weapons.

A "recoilless rifle" is not just a "rifle without recoil"

A magnetic acceleration weapon still generates recoil when firing (despite popular myth)

Even if we assume that in the context of Halo weapons a "recoilless rifle" or carbine isn't a "recoilless rifle" in the traditional sense, but more generally a small arms weapon design to have little/no felt recoil, this doesn't seem to apply to the M99.

In the Graphic Novel where it first appears there doesn't appear to be a mention of it being "recoilless"

(I can't be 100% sure since the text under the name is basically too small to be readable)

Moreover Johnson(?) is shown firing the M99 from a bipod standing braced against a table (in such a way that implies it has recoil)

In Contact Harvest no mention is made of the M99 being a recoilless rifle

(in fact it's mention Johnson "lowers [M99] onto its shock absorbing armature" which seems to imply he intends to use the mount on the hornet he's on to absorb the recoil of firing rather than his shoulder, why would a recoilless rifle need a shock absorbing armature?)

In Bad Blood when the M99 is introduced (ch 17) Forbeck refers to it as both a gauss rifle and a railgun in the same paragraph, while railguns and coilguns share some similarities they are not the same.

Later (ch 21) Buck says (or thinks) "even with a recoilless anti-material rifle like the M99" (this is I believe the first time the term is used)

In universe it's possible Buck has never used an M99 and falsely believe it to be a recoilless rifle.

Out of universe it's possible Forbeck got false info referring to it as a recoilless rifle or called it recoilless himself because he doesn't understand how Newton's 3rd law applies to magnetic accelerator weapons.

In Silent Storm the M99 isn't called a "recoilless" rifle but it is incorrectly claimed that it would not generate recoil (kind of unfortunate so much time is spent on the accurate description of orbital mechanics and then to forget newton's 3rd law). It's possible that it was meant to imply simply that the M99 would have less recoil than a traditional firearm firing a comparable projectile

In Halo Wars 2 a more advanced modified version the M99A2S3 is introduced

No mention is made of it or the original M99 being "recoilless"

One of the upgrades is an "inertia buffer" which designer Jeremy Cook described as "hightec recoil management"

If the gun was already "recoilless" why did it need an upgrade to reduce recoil?

https://twitter.com/JeremyCook3D/status/950592593376628741

Here technically the M99A2S3 variant might be called "recoilless" because it literally has less recoil than the standard M99, but I doubt that's the way it was intended (and further, even with the recoil buffer we don't know that it has no/negligible recoil, just less than the standard M99)

Counterpoint:

"The H4 Railgun is called the "ASYMMETRICAL RECOILLESS CARBINE 920"

The Railgun is not the same weapon as the M99

- M99 is a coilgun

- Railgun is a railgun

- ACR90 Railgun may have additional advancements to actually reduce recoil and make it "recoilless" (one rail that is more massive or able to move freely so that recoil energy is dissipated "outwards" by the movement of the rail rather than "backwards" in a standard weapon, which might also explain the "asymmetric" part of the name)

- Most likely whoever named it still believed the myth that magnetic weapons don't generate recoil (also recoilless carbine makes for a good acronym ARC)

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/weapons/railgun

Some (newer) sources refer to it as "recoilless" (or otherwise imply it has little/no recoil) but other sources imply or state outright that it has recoil (HW2). Until a more definitive answer is give as to whether the weapon is actually classified as "recoilless" I definitely don't think it should have "recoilless" in the infobox, possibly there should be a mention of it being called "recoilless" in the trivia section.

[[User:S3anyBoy|S3anyBoy]] ([[User talk:S3anyBoy|talk]]) 11:51, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 :See [[Wikipedia:Recoilless rifle|here]]. The real-world variant is also not recoilless, but is called such due to the much-reduced recoil its design features. This is much the same-the lack of a chemical propellant also exiting the barrel reduces the recoil significantly. And sources often trump real-world science here because, well, it is science fiction. The NOVA bomb, for instance, cannot realistically work the way it's described.--[[User:D9328|D9328]] ([[User talk:D9328|talk]]) 11:40, May 28, 2019 (EDT)d9328
+Yes I'm aware of the real world definition of a recoilless rifle
+A recoilless rifle is a specific type of weapon, the modern definition of which precludes magnetic accelerator weapons.
+A "recoilless rifle" is not just a "rifle without recoil"
+A magnetic acceleration weapon still generates recoil when firing (despite popular myth)
+Even if we assume that in the context of Halo weapons a "recoilless rifle" or carbine isn't a "recoilless rifle" in the traditional sense, but more generally a small arms weapon design to have little/no felt recoil, this doesn't seem to apply to the M99.
+In the Graphic Novel where it first appears there doesn't appear to be a mention of it being "recoilless"
+(I can't be 100% sure since the text under the name is basically too small to be readable)
+Moreover Johnson(?) is shown firing the M99 from a bipod standing braced against a table (in such a way that implies it has recoil)
+In Contact Harvest no mention is made of the M99 being a recoilless rifle
+(in fact it's mention Johnson "lowers [M99] onto its shock absorbing armature" which seems to imply he intends to use the mount on the hornet he's on to absorb the recoil of firing rather than his shoulder, why would a recoilless rifle need a shock absorbing armature?)
+In Bad Blood when the M99 is introduced (ch 17) Forbeck refers to it as both a gauss rifle and a railgun in the same paragraph, while railguns and coilguns share some similarities they are not the same.
+Later (ch 21) Buck says (or thinks) "even with a recoilless anti-material rifle like the M99" (this is I believe the first time the term is used)
+In universe it's possible Buck has never used an M99 and falsely believe it to be a recoilless rifle.
+Out of universe it's possible Forbeck got false info referring to it as a recoilless rifle or called it recoilless himself because he doesn't understand how Newton's 3rd law applies to magnetic accelerator weapons.
+In Silent Storm the M99 isn't called a "recoilless" rifle but it is incorrectly claimed that it would not generate recoil (kind of unfortunate so much time is spent on the accurate description of orbital mechanics and then to forget newton's 3rd law). It's possible that it was meant to imply simply that the M99 would have less recoil than a traditional firearm firing a comparable projectile
+In Halo Wars 2 a more advanced modified version the M99A2S3 is introduced
+No mention is made of it or the original M99 being "recoilless"
+One of the upgrades is an "inertia buffer" which designer Jeremy Cook described as "hightec recoil management"
+If the gun was already "recoilless" why did it need an upgrade to reduce recoil?
+https://twitter.com/JeremyCook3D/status/950592593376628741
+Here technically the M99A2S3 variant might be called "recoilless" because it literally has less recoil than the standard M99, but I doubt that's the way it was intended (and further, even with the recoil buffer we don't know that it has no/negligible recoil, just less than the standard M99)
+Counterpoint:
+"The H4 Railgun is called the "ASYMMETRICAL RECOILLESS CARBINE 920"
+The Railgun is not the same weapon as the M99
+- M99 is a coilgun
+- Railgun is a railgun
+- ACR90 Railgun may have additional advancements to actually reduce recoil and make it "recoilless" (one rail that is more massive or able to move freely so that recoil energy is dissipated "outwards" by the movement of the rail rather than "backwards" in a standard weapon, which might also explain the "asymmetric" part of the name)
+- Most likely whoever named it still believed the myth that magnetic weapons don't generate recoil (also recoilless carbine makes for a good acronym ARC)
+https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/weapons/railgun
+Some (newer) sources refer to it as "recoilless" (or otherwise imply it has little/no recoil) but other sources imply or state outright that it has recoil (HW2). Until a more definitive answer is give as to whether the weapon is actually classified as "recoilless" I definitely don't think it should have "recoilless" in the infobox, possibly there should be a mention of it being called "recoilless" in the trivia section.
+[[User:S3anyBoy|S3anyBoy]] ([[User talk:S3anyBoy|talk]]) 11:51, May 28, 2019 (EDT)