Talk:Covenant remnants

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So, I've made the necessary alterations, making sure that they are similar to that of the Insurrectionists article.— subtank 12:40, 27 April 2014 (EDT)

Love it. I know I didn't support this at first, but this was absolutely the right thing to do. Congrats to all who helped to pull it off so well! --Weeping Angel (talk) 23:25, 27 April 2014 (EDT)

Still not sure about the whole Merg Vol faction thing, but I guess it is better to assume it was a different faction than assume it wasn't. I'll update more of Thel's faction tommorow. Cheers!Sith-venator Wavingstrider (Commlink) 23:31, 27 April 2014 (EDT)

Waypoint and the new Covenant

So, I'm not sure how we should regard the new info given at Waypoint's article on the Covenant and its nature in the post-war era. Specifically these bits:

Without species-wide agreement, the aftermath of the Great Schism eventually led to civil war and the formation of a newly resurrected Covenant body. This new Covenant remains a mystery even unto itself, as it has seen splinter groups led by fledgling and ambitious Sangheili warlords make desperate attempts to salvage a stake of the Covenant power and influence. But it has also seen attempts at reunification, most notably under the Sangheili warlord named Jul ‘Mdama...

This fracture led to numerous civil wars on Sanghelios, but it would also lead to the formation of a new Covenant. This new Covenant is almost entirely military in nature and lacks the unified cohesion of its long-standing predecessor, though the might of well-equipped Sangheili can never be underestimated.

It's indicated that a universal new Covenant body was indeed formed (by whom?), thus making Jul's or Vol's factions splinter groups of a larger polity. However, since it's also suggested the new Covenant has little in the way of defined leadership or even structure, it may be that it exists mostly as an idea rather than a proper organization. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 01:47, 18 November 2014 (EST)

My interpretation of it was that Jul's faction is the largest, dominant Covenant faction, but that other smaller groups maintain some autonomy, some reporting to him and others not. I'm trying to come up with an applicable analogy, but it's not easy - I suppose the Greeks? The Greek city-states have unified or been at each others throats throughout their ancient history, but they all share a common culture and are thought of as Greek, or Hellenic. They're all "Covenant," in that they all seem to identify as such, and share a common composition, aim (deposing the Arbiter and/or wiping out humanity) and strategies and tactics. The Arbiter's faction, the Swords of Sanghelios, are the only faction we've seen explicitly refute identifying themselves as Covenant. I don't think this really changes our current designation system though - even in-universe it's a work-in-progress, and "Covenant remnants" is still the best descriptor we have to separate what's left from the original Covenant at its height. -- Qura 'Morhek ^{The Autocrat of Morheka} 02:40, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Gonna' agree with what Morhek said here as well.Sith-venator Wavingstrider (Commlink) 02:47, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Oh, I absolutely agree. It's just that we might want to better convey the way the anti-human, anti-Arbiter remnant factions are grouped together under the same ideological "new Covenant" umbrella. Groups like Jul's faction have no name of their own because they claim to be the one true Covenant, which is already reflected in Zef 'Trahl's quote on the top of the page. I wonder if the talk about the UNSC making a peace treaty with "the Covenant" in Halo: Nightfall (and Halo 4's Dawn!) factors into this at all or if they're really just referring to Thel's group. It's strange that ONI is so concerned about Hesduros-style Zealots breaking the treaty when they should know better than anyone that the UNSC never negotiated any treaties with this Covenant. Or did they? --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 02:59, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I'm guessing Thel's faction wasn't given the name Swords of Sangheilios until after Nightfall was filmed.Sith-venator Wavingstrider (Commlink) 03:39, 18 November 2014 (EST)

My guess is that the Covenant, as we know it now, didn't emerge until after the UNSC signed its treaty with Thel's faction. Up until the Servants of the Abiding Truth's uprising, and the emergence of Jul 'Mdama's (possibly separate) faction, the Arbiter was the leader of what was left of the Covenant remnant by default. I doubt any treaty agreed to by him would be considered valid by any of the groups who oppose him, especially since it is probably why they oppose him. -- Qura 'Morhek ^{The Autocrat of Morheka} 04:40, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Exactly. So why is ONI being so pedantic about a group of extremists breaking a treaty the UNSC signed with an entity said extremists are no longer part of? Does the UNSC hold Thel accountable for the actions of every Sangheili fanatic out there? If so, they'd had plenty of reasons to complain after the massive invasion of a human world in Spartan Assault, to say nothing of the events at Requiem. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 12:11, 18 November 2014 (EST)