Forum:Brutes Should NOT Join Elite Covenant Remnant Factions
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Brutes Should NOT Join Elite Covenant Remnant Factions
It makes no sense for Brutes to be working with Jul Madama's Covenant Remnant Faction, Merg Vol's Covenant Remnant Faction, or any Elite Covenant Remnant Faction after the events of 2552. A large part of Halo's canon/lore is the rivalry between Brutes and Elites. If Brutes and Elites are depicted working together in a post 2552 setting that completely ignores and contradicts a core part of the lore. Its fine to bring back Brutes as enemies against humans in Halo post 2552, but they can not be in an Elite Covenant Remnant Faction, they need to be in their own faction. The hatred between Brutes and Elites need to be Aknowledged.
History of why Elites and Brutes hate each other
Elites were in the Covenant Empire since day one. Brutes were the most recent addition to the Covenant Empire, and the two species didn't get along well. Brutes and Elites would often argue and get into physical fist fights with each other despite being part of the same team, and there was a tense rivalry between the two species. Because of their rivalry, they often didn't fight along side each other during the Human-Covenant war. Halo Reach shows this as you never see Brutes and Elites fight the player as a unit. It's either Elites leading Grunts and Jackals, or Brutes leading Grunts and Jackals. The Covenant clearly kept their units separate to prevent the two species from fighting each other (verbally and potentially physically).
In the events of Halo 2 (2552), the great schism occured wich pushed the hatred of the two species to the extreme. Prophet of Truth (leader of the Covenant Empire) wanted more power, he ended up changing the honor guards, and making the Brutes out rank the Elites. The Elites were angered by this and threatened to resign from the Covenant empire. The rivalry between the two species intesified even more. The Prophet of Truth then ordered all the Brutes to kill all Elites and kick them out of the Covenant. Arbiter was executed by Tartarus Chieftan of the Brutes and betrayed in cold blood (but the execution failed, Arbiter survived the fall). The Brutes showed up to the activation temple in Delta Halo where Elite Councillors were about to start the great journey, the Brutes showed up, the Elites didn't think much of it at first as the two are on the same side since they are all Covenant. Un aware of Truth's new orders, the Elite Councilors were suddenly slaughtered by the Brutes. The Brutes killed all the Elite Councilors and then ATE their corpses to let out a little more steam. High Charity, the Covenant homeworld fell into civil war. Brutes and Elites killing each other left and right. Elites have a strong sense of kinship, and when their brothers are killed they get pissed. That on top of their rivalry with the brutes building up after all those years pushed their hate to the extreem. In the middle of the war against the humans, the covenant fell into civil war, Brutes vs Elites. (Source: Halo 2)
Every single one of the Elites were ultimately kicked out of the Covenant, so most of the Elites joined forces with the humans and helped them destroy the Covenant Empire. (Source: Halo 3)
The Elites had won, but their revenge wasn't over yet. The Elites were still so angry they entire species waged war against the Brute's home world in an attempt to make them extinct. From 2552-2559 the Elites are still attacking the Brute home world genociding their species and currently winning. The Brutes are clearly not happy about this. (Source: Halo The Return https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1kUy8MmBKY)
Not even an individual Brute would want to team up with an Elite after this ordeal. What species would want to join forces with a species that is genociding their species? That is why no individual Brute could/should want to join an Elite Covenant Remnant faction.
Almost every Halo story takes the chance it has to tell the player the relationship between Brutes and Elites. Halo 2, clearly showed they don't like each other and you don't even play a mission with brutes helping you. Not to mention the Brutes ate the Elite Councilors. ODST mentioned they don't like being around each other. Halo Headhunters mentioned they don't work together. Contact harvest mentioned that they have an ancient feud and don't like being around each other hence them being on different ships.
It would not make sense for the Elites team up with the Brutes, who have had their entire species kicked out of the Covenant by the Brutes and countless betrayed/murdered in cold blood (Elites have a strong sense of kinship, and are angered when fellow brothers are betrayed) to forgive and work along side them. Just as it would not make sense for the Brutes to team up with the Elites, who have contunied to attack them after the Human-Covenant war ended, and are trying to genocide their entire species and are winning at it (as shown in Halo: The Return: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1kUy8MmBKY ).
Why Elites making peace with Brutes cannot happen
if Jul (and his Covenant Remnant faction) won't make peace with the Arbiter(and his Swords of Sanghellios faction), fellow brother Elites who fought on his side when they were both in the covenant, then why would he make peace with an enemy of his species (Brutes) who are responsible for him, along with the rest of his species getting kicked out of the covenant and replacing them. Elites and a strong sense of kinship, it would make no sense for Jul to favor Brutes over the Arbiter, one of his own brothers during the days of the Covenant Empire. If the Covenant Remnant Elties can't make peace with fellow Elites, or Humans, how can ANYONE expect they would have the mindset to make peace with an even worse enemy, the very species that slaughtered and devoured their own people in cold blood (The Brutes). The Prophets and Brutes didn't just betray the some Elites in the original Covenant Empire, they betrayed ALL Elites including Jul and his followers back when they were in the Covenant Empire. Seeing that Jul Mdama has got a hot enough temper to attack his own kin (the Arbiter's covenant faction, Swords of Sanghellios), theres no way in hell that he would forgive an outsider(Brutes), especially ones that made him and his people suffer (Brutes). If Elite Covenant Remnant factions (enmies of humanity) can't make peace with humans or fellow other Elites (Swords of Sanghellios), theres no way they would make peace with Brutes or let them join their faction.
Secondly, why would a Brute even want to join an Elite Covenant Remnant faction in the first place? Sure joining an Elite Covenant Remnant faction would give them resources, but why do that when they could just make their own Brute lead faction and avoid Elites all togehter. In Halo: The Return, the Elites are still at war with the Brutes after the Human-Covenant war ended and after the Great Schism occured. Current Halo lore is set around 2557 and 2778, Halo the Return is in 2559 and it shows Elites genociding the remnants of the Brutes. Elites hate the brutes so much that they wen't to the Brute home world and started glassing it and attempting to make the Brutes go extinct. Why would any member of a species (Brutes in this case), individual mindset or not, want to join a species that is genociding them?
Regarding Elites and Brutes working together (post-2552)
There have been some peices of Halo canon that depict Brutes and Elites working together post 2552 (the great schism, when their hatred for each other went over the roof), such as Halo Glasslands, Halo Spartan Assault, and Halo Spartan Strike. While this is techinically canon, keep in mind that no writer is perfect, and these writers probably had no clue of the events that happened in Halo 2, this they did not know that depicting Elites and Brutes working together post 2552 would contradict Canon. Writting like this should be discouraged, and we should not continue to accept Brutes and Elites working together as part of the story, if we are going to accept that the events of Halo 2's Great Schism took place we cannot have the two getting along to the point where they are willing to fight in the same faction. Its one or the other. Either Halo 2's great schism of the Brutes killing and expelling all Elites from the Covenant happened or it did not. If we are going to accept that it happened, then Brutes and Elites can not be depicted as allies post 2552. Its good to see recent Halo novels such as Halo: Broken Circle aknowledge the hatred between the two species and properly understand the events of the Great Schism.
To those who feel that "not all Brutes think the same"
Because of the events of the Great Schism in Halo 2 and Halo 3, Brutes and Elites clearly hate each other. They hate each other more than they would hate humans. Before somone says "not all members of a species will think the same way" keep in mind than in Halo 2, when the Great Schism happened, Brutes started killing ALL, Elites. Any Elite in sight. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for there to be an instance where Brutes and Elites were still team mates during the events of Halo 2 and Halo 3. Had any Elites remained in the Covenant Empire, they would have been killed by the Brutes.
A Brutes joining an Elite Covenant Remant faction, is litterally the same as a black person trying to join a racist white supremist group. The two hate each other. Regardless of individuality, both parties cannot get along.
Conclusion
I'm not saying brutes shouldn't return as enemies in future Halo games. With their race being genocided by the Elites, and the history between the two species it makes no sense for them to be at peace and team up. At least be fair, I think its a fair compromise for the Brutes to return but in a lore friendly way. If they are going to return as enemies in Halo, they NEED to be in a faction different from the Elite Covenant Remnant (Jul Mdama's faction).
Comments
YES, THEY CAN AND HAVE. You're wrong. You're acting like canon information should be discarded simply because you want things to be simpler and for all members of an entire species to act and believe the same. —This unsigned comment was made by Japeth555 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~
- Where is it documented that they got into fistfights? And where does it say they hated each other from day 1?
- The reason why Brutes are rarely seen with Elites is because they bring psychological warfare, while the elites do not.
- When is it stated Doisac was attacked?
- I do not think the Brutes ate the corpses.
- Not everyone of a particular race have the same emotions towards another group, nor should they. Plus Jul is a psychopath.
- Half of your "arguments" are flawed, come back when you think it through.
Alertfiend (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
I'm not sure why you care so much about a topic that's never been an issue. There's been nothing from Halo media claiming Brutes are joining Jul's remnant. It's as much a non-issue as the Flood joining the Covenant. Tuckerscreator(stalk) 20:03, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
There are some Brutes in his Covenant, as evidenced by Spartan Strike. —This unsigned comment was made by 162.234.136.110 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~
Okay. First off, the tone of this piece comes across as defensive and accusatory. Just saying, you may want to work on that in the future. Second, Glasslands, Spartan Strike, etc, are canon sources. Glasslands makes it explicitly clear that whatever misgivings you have about it, Brutes have continued to work with Elites in some limited numbers, albeit to serve their own purposes.
The Ealen talks were unresolved, with the possibility of at least some Brutes laying down their arms, in exchange for the Elites ignoring them. There are reasonable Chieftains out there. There are also probably plenty of genuinely religious Brutes who would ignore their age-old grudge against the Elites if it meant they got the chance to serve the will of the Living God and his Prometheans.
There are also probably plenty of Brutes who'd join up willingly as mercenaries - what reason do the traditionally un-pious Jackals have to work with Jul? Because he's paying. We know that the Brutes are themselves split along clan lines - to continue feuds even older than their grudge against the Elites, is it impossible to think some would turn to Mdama for weapons and ships, in exchange for being some battlefiend hired muscle? I doubt it.
And addressing your last remark: I'm not the only disregarding canonical sources. -- Qura 'Morhek The Autocrat of Morheka 21:45, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
Where is it documented that they got into fist fights you ask? almost every peice of Halo lore depicts that there was rivalry between the Elites and Brutes in the Covenant Empire, how do you not know this? I can't dig up the exact quote where they got into physical fights (I'm not going to dig through every Halo book to find it, but it is there). Read the article on Brutes and on Elites in this wiki and you will find evidence that there was rivalry and resentment towards each other when they were both in the Original Covenant Empire. Where is it documented that they hate each other since day 1? Almost every Halo story takes the chance it has to tell the player the relationship between Brutes and Elites.
-Halo 2, clearly showed they don't like each other and you don't even play a mission with brutes helping you. Not to mention the Brutes ate the Elite Councilors. -ODST mentioned they don't like being around each other. -Halo Headhunters mentioned they don't work together. -Contact harvest mentioned that they have an ancient feud and don't like being around each other hence them being on different ships.
Seriously I list my sources, its not that hard to read.
Most importantly, you ask me, "when is it stated Doisac was attacked by Elites?" Here, read/watch Halo: The Return ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1kUy8MmBKY ) The Elites are currently genocidal killing off the Brutes, that is a canon fact. You are just not up to date with the Halo lore. Elites have gone to the Brute Homeworld in 2559 and are mopping up the brutes in an attempt to make them go exctinct? Why? Because they hate each other. Watch the video or read the book.
So yes, all my facts are correct, please re-respond once you have checked my sources and acknowledge that my facts are right. But really, all you need is to play and pay attention to Halo 2's story to understand the rivalry between the Brutes and Elites, its a critical part of the lore that you clearly missed.
None of my arguments are flawed, you are just not aware of the Halo lore between the Brutes and Elites rivalry. If you had known this, you would know that if Jul or Elites can't make peace with the Arbiter's Swords of Sanghelios (A fellow brother species), or the Humans, they would never have the mindset to forgive the Brutes, their most hated enemy of all. SpartanEdit0r (talk) 22:32, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
- Brutes only recently joined so there is no ancient feud, that was to add character to their dislike of each other.
- Where in the return did it say they attacked Doisac?
- Where does it say they ate the councilors corpses? Although I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
- Properly source your facts.
- The Brutes were jealous of the Elites, and the Elites didn't like the Brutes because of their nature.
- Do you even own Halo 2?
Alertfiend (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2015 (EDT)