Editing Talk:Spartan Operations

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:I agree. That kind of speculation has no place on this wiki. There seems to be this idea that the more that goes into speculation, the more truth there is to it. Speculation is speculation and should not be presented as fact. As for the image, to me it feels as though it was placed their for the sake of the page having an image. If there's no image that represents the branch then we shouldn't try to make another one fit.--[[User talk:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] 05:01, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
:I agree. That kind of speculation has no place on this wiki. There seems to be this idea that the more that goes into speculation, the more truth there is to it. Speculation is speculation and should not be presented as fact. As for the image, to me it feels as though it was placed their for the sake of the page having an image. If there's no image that represents the branch then we shouldn't try to make another one fit.--[[User talk:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] 05:01, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
::This is far from the first unit article that features old wartime personnel counts for current, active units. The 105th Shock Division has been noted as having 15,000 to 20,000 Marines, yet we know that they served at least in both the Reach and Earth fronts and it could be speculated that they lost anywhere from a couple battalions to a whole regiment from hard fighting; a company alone by attempting to board and capture Regret's flagship in ''ODST''. As for this page's own personnel figures, there's a reason why I put lengthy notes instead of a couple direct sources to ''Ghosts of Onyx'' and ''Headhunters''. Yes, it is all speculative information as you so aptly put, but suggesting its just filler and a half-assed attempt at making the page look better isn't the way to go. It is noted at the top of the page that these figures were taken for Gamma during their last (and only) known battle at Onyx and Majestic and Crimson on Requiem. If anything, the only number that is anything to concern ourselves over is the Headhunter count at 15, knowing full well that more than that number perished during the war. So in essence, like many things in the franchise, we can only use what we've been given (generally very little). If sourced/noted properly and stated to be speculation/conjecture (as it is), there's no issue. {{User:Grizzlei/Sig}}
::This is far from the first unit article that features old wartime personnel counts for current, active units. The 105th Shock Division has been noted as having 15,000 to 20,000 Marines, yet we know that they served at least in both the Reach and Earth fronts and it could be speculated that they lost anywhere from a couple battalions to a whole regiment from hard fighting; a company alone by attempting to board and capture Regret's flagship in ''ODST''. As for this page's own personnel figures, there's a reason why I put lengthy notes instead of a couple direct sources to ''Ghosts of Onyx'' and ''Headhunters''. Yes, it is all speculative information as you so aptly put, but suggesting its just filler and a half-assed attempt at making the page look better isn't the way to go. It is noted at the top of the page that these figures were taken for Gamma during their last (and only) known battle at Onyx and Majestic and Crimson on Requiem. If anything, the only number that is anything to concern ourselves over is the Headhunter count at 15, knowing full well that more than that number perished during the war. So in essence, like many things in the franchise, we can only use what we've been given (generally very little). If sourced/noted properly and stated to be speculation/conjecture (as it is), there's no issue. {{User:Grizzlei/Sig}}
:::We know the approximate sizes of real-world organizational units like divisions and there is fairly solid evidence that UNSC units are, for the most part, similarly sized. We don't, however, know anything about the size of an exotic future military branch like Spartan. Second, to return to my former points, we have no idea if Gamma Company ever was part of the Spartan branch, since their status following October 2552 is completely unknown. We don't know what happened to the Headhunter program or when it was active to begin with. In addition, why are the specifically identified Spartan-IVs from Spartan Ops listed apart of the Infinity's total count of "300 to 500" Spartans? They serve aboard the Infinity, so they don't exist outside that figure.
:::I suppose my main issue here is that I don't see why it's necessary to try and guess their numbers with such accuracy. To me, a painstakingly precise (658 as opposed to a rough approximate like 600) "at least" figure doesn't improve the article in any significant manner, not only because it relies on complete unknowns but also because it does not tell anything beyond the absolute bare minimum of their numbers. We still don't know the total number of personnel in the branch, which could be anything from 500 (provided Gamma Company didn't survive to join the branch) to any number of thousands.
:::Guesses like these, however educated they may be, are something I'd rather see in a dedicated trivia or conjecture section rather than having them sprinkled throughout the article, with notes or not. I'm well aware we've had pure guesswork in our articles in the past, but I believe we should rather keep the article shorter before we get more information than supplement hard facts with inference based on highly limited information. To me, the last known numbers of units whose status we're completely unaware of are not enough to be accepted as basis for deduction. If we knew the status of Gamma Company or Headhunters by whenever the branch was formally established, then making such guesses would be much more substantiated. But we don't, so as it stands, the speculation is on rather shaky ground to me.
:::However, I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I wouldn't have a problem with seeing the numbers guesses in a separate section, though firmly within the confines of "Conjecture" templates. After all, that's what the template is for.  --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:50, 24 September 2012 (EDT)


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