Editing Talk:Covenant remnants

== Content ==
So, I've made the necessary alterations, making sure that they are similar to that of the [[Insurrectionist]]s article.— <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  12:40, 27 April 2014 (EDT)


Love it. I know I didn't support this at first, but this was absolutely the right thing to do. Congrats to all who helped to pull it off so well!  --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 23:25, 27 April 2014 (EDT)

:Still not sure about the whole Merg Vol faction thing, but I guess it is better to assume it was a different faction than assume it wasn't. I'll update more of Thel's faction tommorow. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvRGh2NEjSU Cheers]![[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 23:31, 27 April 2014 (EDT)

== Waypoint and the new Covenant ==

So, I'm not sure how we should regard the new info given at [https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/factions/covenant Waypoint's article on the Covenant] and its nature in the post-war era. Specifically these bits:

''Without species-wide agreement, the aftermath of the Great Schism eventually led to civil war and the formation of a newly resurrected Covenant body. This new Covenant remains a mystery even unto itself, as it has seen splinter groups led by fledgling and ambitious Sangheili warlords make desperate attempts to salvage a stake of the Covenant power and influence. But it has also seen attempts at reunification, most notably under the Sangheili warlord named Jul ‘Mdama...''

''This fracture led to numerous civil wars on Sanghelios, but it would also lead to the formation of a new Covenant. This new Covenant is almost entirely military in nature and lacks the unified cohesion of its long-standing predecessor, though the might of well-equipped Sangheili can never be underestimated.''

It's indicated that a universal new Covenant body ''was'' indeed formed (by whom?), thus making Jul's or Vol's factions splinter groups of a larger polity. However, since it's also suggested the new Covenant has little in the way of defined leadership or even structure, it may be that it exists mostly as an idea rather than a proper organization. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:47, 18 November 2014 (EST)

:My interpretation of it was that Jul's faction is the largest, dominant Covenant faction, but that other smaller groups maintain some autonomy, some reporting to him and others not. I'm trying to come up with an applicable analogy, but it's not easy - I suppose the Greeks? The Greek city-states have unified or been at each others throats throughout their ancient history, but they all share a common culture and are thought of as Greek, or Hellenic. They're all "Covenant," in that they all seem to identify as such, and share a common composition, aim (deposing the Arbiter and/or wiping out humanity) and strategies and tactics. The Arbiter's faction, the Swords of Sanghelios, are the only faction we've seen explicitly refute identifying themselves as Covenant. I don't think this really changes our current designation system though - even in-universe it's a work-in-progress, and "Covenant remnants" is still the best descriptor we have to separate what's left from the original Covenant at its height. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 02:40, 18 November 2014 (EST)

::Gonna' agree with what Morhek said here as well.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 02:47, 18 November 2014 (EST)

:::Oh, I absolutely agree. It's just that we might want to better convey the way the anti-human, anti-Arbiter remnant factions are grouped together under the same ideological "new Covenant" umbrella. Groups like Jul's faction have no name of their own because they claim to be ''the'' one true Covenant, which is already reflected in Zef 'Trahl's quote on the top of the page. I wonder if the talk about the UNSC making a peace treaty with "the Covenant" in ''Halo: Nightfall'' (and ''Halo 4''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[Dawn]]!) factors into this at all or if they're really just referring to Thel's group. It's strange that ONI is so concerned about Hesduros-style Zealots breaking the treaty when they should know better than anyone that the UNSC never negotiated any treaties with this Covenant. Or did they? --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:59, 18 November 2014 (EST)

::::I'm guessing Thel's faction wasn't given the name Swords of Sangheilios until after Nightfall was filmed.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 03:39, 18 November 2014 (EST)

:::::My guess is that the Covenant, as we know it now, didn't emerge until after the UNSC signed its treaty with Thel's faction. Up until the Servants of the Abiding Truth's uprising, and the emergence of Jul 'Mdama's (possibly separate) faction, the Arbiter was the leader of what was left of the Covenant remnant by default. I doubt any treaty agreed to by him would be considered valid by any of the groups who oppose him, especially since it is probably ''why'' they oppose him. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 04:40, 18 November 2014 (EST)

::::::Exactly. So why is ONI being so pedantic about a group of extremists breaking a treaty the UNSC signed with an entity said extremists are no longer part of? Does the UNSC hold Thel accountable for the actions of every Sangheili fanatic out there? If so, they'd had plenty of reasons to complain after the massive invasion of a human world in ''Spartan Assault'', to say nothing of the events at Requiem. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:11, 18 November 2014 (EST)

==Kig-Yar==
In regard to [[Talk:Lydus' clan|this discussion]], would it be necessary to include Kig-Yar pirates (such as the [[Kig-Yar pirate queen|queen]]'s faction) on this page? I don't know if this faction warrants its own article, since it has only made a minor appearance. Otherwise, there is still some Kig-Yar piracy going on, in general (ie The Kig-Yar in the ''Kilo-Five Trilogy'', but I haven't read it so I can't give a lot of details). So maybe Kig-Yar activity might warrant a paragraph on the "Covenant remnants" page. The "main article" link(s) could direct to the queen's and Chol Von's page, if these minor factions can't have their own page then the page of their leader should be enough. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 03:02, 16 February 2015 (EST)

== The Banished ==

Even though the Banished fought and separated from the Covenant prior to its fall, I think it would be appropriate (and useful) to list them on this page. Whenever they may have seceded (or been ''banished''), in the post-war era they are a prominent group that originated from the Covenant and have consolidated its assets under their organization. The criteria for inclusion on this page is already very lenient and basically covers every group that sprung from the Covenant civilization, whether they consider themselves a "Covenant" or not, and not listing the Banished because they separated earlier feels very arbitrary to me since we list groups ranging from the Swords of Sanghelios to Kig-Yar pirate bands anyway. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:06, 20 June 2016 (EDT)

Fair points, but the page would need to be remained and its expanded focus clarified in its opening paragraphs. -{{unsigned|Japeth555}}

:The opening paragraphs should be made more inclusive, though I think the current title is still appropriate, since being a "remnant" does not necessarily require them to have been with the Covenant until its end; just that they were part of the Covenant once and now, despite their independence, clearly have their roots in the Covenant civilization and military-industrial complex. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:47, 20 June 2016 (EDT)

::Agreed, maybe the definition of "remnant" should just be that it contains some elements of the original Covenant? I do not know. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 02:57, 20 June 2016 (EDT)

:Covenant remnants refer to groups that formed from the ashes of the Covenant.

:The Banished would be classified as groups prior to that.  Groups such as Ussans, Sesa Refume's Heretic faction, and the Banished existed prior. While they are splinter factions from the Covenant, they are not remnants from the aftermath of the Human-Covenant war. If we include the Banished as a Covenant remnant, then we would have to include Sesa Refumee's Heretic faction as well, The Ussans, and every other pre-Great Schism splinter faction. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 03:55, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
::The Banished contain ''elements'' of the Covenants (after it's fall), where as the Ussans, and Sesa's heretics did not, so I do not see why they would be labelled as remnants. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 04:16, 20 June 2016 (EDT)

::A remnant is something that is left behind after its larger body has been used, destroyed or removed, and isn't necessarily created in response to that change. Therefore, the Banished would count as a remnant of the Covenant. Sesa 'Refumee's faction is not a remnant as it was already destroyed before the fall of the Covenant. -- [[User:Topal the Pilot|'''Topal the Pilot''']] [[File:Blueteam.png|20px]] <small>([[User talk:Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Talk'''</span>]]|[[Special:Contributions/Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Contribs'''</span>]])</small> 04:20, 20 June 2016 (EDT)

:::I agree with the post above, Sesa's heretics were destroyed before the Covenant's fall, so they do not qualify as a remnant (more as a splinter group), whereas the Banished literally include remnants of the Covenant and are still around. For the Ussans, they were Sangheili who rebelled against the Covenant when it was formed if I'm not mistaken, so they weren't Covenant at all. On a side note, the term "Covenant remnant" has been used in a number of sources (''Escalation'', ''Halo 5''...) so it's not that bad of a term. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 12:08, 20 June 2016 (EDT)

::: Sesa's faction contained many elements of the Covenant after it splintered off. Their armor, weapons and vehicles were Covenant (it looked different as they were working in the gas mine). So if we are listed the Banished as a Covenant Remnant; We should list Sesa's faction as a former Covenant Remnant too.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 01:34, 4 July 2016 (EDT)

:::: Sesa's faction was destroyed before the Covenant splintered, the Banished wasn't, the Banished also incorporated elements of the Hegemony, some could say remnants. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 03:59, 4 July 2016 (EDT)

:(Indent reset) Just saying aloud here. Wouldnt a Covenant Splinter group page make more sense and split it into two sections. A pre-Schism section and post schism section, as technically the Ussans, Sesas faction, so on did kinda splinter or were formed because of the Covenant. -[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 05:20, 4 July 2016 (EDT)

=== 343 Industries Writer for Halo Wars 2, Kevin Grace, said that the Banished are not a Covenant Remnant ===

[https://youtu.be/7Sw2LKA91_M?t=47m45s "Atriox (referring to his faction, after answering a question) doesn't fit into the other existing Covenant factions that we've seen elsewhere, like in Halo 5 for example. He's running his own crew, he is very much designed...er, focused on the Banished and their success, his success, uhhh... and building up his power over in ..uh... our Halo Wars part of the Galaxy on the Ark, uhhh, so he's not part of that political system right now, but he has some interesting plans in that direction."] said Kevin Grace. I think that settles it. I preserved the "uhs" and "ums" for integrity to retain the primary source. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 04:32, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

:"Doesn't fit into the other existing Covenant factions that we've seen elsewhere" We already know the Banished are unique in many ways and he never said that the Banished are not a remnant faction. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 04:41, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

::Okay, to clarify: is Halopedia's definition of Covenant Remnant means any faction that meets these two criteria. '''A)''' Any faction that has splintered off from the former Covenant Empire '''B)''' Still existed after the Covenant Empire died in Dec 11 '52. ?[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 04:57, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

:::Which the Banished fits on both accounts. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 05:09, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

::::What Alertfiend said. Whether or not the Banished are a Covenant remnant is a technicality next to the fact they're listed on the page for convenience's sake. The Swords of Sanghelios, Lydus's master-pack, or Kig-Yar pirate bands don't really count as "Covenant factions" either, but they're listed on the page because it's more informative to have all groups that originated from the Covenant (as a civilization) in one place. That, and I've found that getting caught up on strict technicalities is rarely useful in the long run. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 05:33, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

::::: Okay, if that's the definition we are going with I think I understand. So we don't include Sesa's faction and others like that because, while they meet '''A)''', they don't meet '''B)'''?

:::::: Which we don't include them. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 17:15, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

::::::: Alright, we should put this definition somewhere on the page.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 17:48, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

::::::::It is the very first sentence on the page -Japeth555

(Indent reset) As I suggested. To get rid of the A/B rule. We could just reformat this page into a Covenant splintergroup page. Means we have all the groups in 1 pages. I was playing around with the idea and it could work if everyones willing.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 18:05, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

:: I considered making a page like "covenant dissidents" to list the groups that did't quite fit into the remnants criteria, but I suppose including them in one page is most convenient.[[User:Lord Susto|<span style="color:orange">Lord Susto</span>]] 23:12, 31 July 2016 (EDT)

:::Just throwing my two cents here: why not just unlist the Banished from the article if it has been established that they are not, in any circumstance, a remnant of the Covenant. The Banished may contain elements of the Covenant but if the foundation of the Banished is not based on the Covenant, it should be removed from this article. Our [[Template:Organizations|organisations template]] has already made a stand that the Banished is a private movement. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  13:04, 2 August 2016 (EDT)

::::Under the definition listed in the article itself, the Banished would qualify as a Covenant remnant: ''"groups originating from the former Covenant body that remain active after the Great Schism and the end of the Human-Covenant War, though no single group uses the specific term "Covenant remnant" to refer to themselves. These factions vary greatly in ethos and motives; while some consider themselves as upholding the legacy of the Covenant as it used to be, others have been shown to pursue more extensive reforms or their own specific agendas."'' The Banished comfortably fit all of these criteria, so if we were to remove them we would also have to narrow down the definition and remove other groups that do not identify as "Covenants" either, such as the Swords of Sanghelios, the Servants of the Abiding Truth or Lydys' master-pack. In fact we'd have to remove most of the groups on the page. However, as I argued earlier, it's easier to just list them all on the page for the sake of convenience and accessibility. And besides, the Banished did spring from the Covenant civilization and use primarily ex-Covenant assets, so they're pretty firmly rooted in the Covenant whether they like it or not. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 14:17, 2 August 2016 (EDT)

== Inconsistencies of inclusion ==

It came to my attention that we are including Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's Joyus Exultation Covenant faction. However it breaches one of the two requirements. 

Requirements for a faction listed on the page ([[Talk:Covenant_remnants#The_Banished|see the Banished discussion]])
* '''A)''' Be a splinter faction that originated from the Covenant 
* '''B)''' Existed after the Covenant died in Dec 11 52', thus making it a remnant.


Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's Joyus Exultation Covenant faction breaks rule '''B)''' as it died on November 3 2552, wich was before the Covenant died on December 11 2552.



Rule '''B)''' is the only reason why we have included The Banished as a Covenant Remnant despite 343 Industries saying [https://youtu.be/7Sw2LKA91_M?t=47m45s "Atriox (referring to his faction) doesn't fit into the other existing Covenant factions that we've seen elsewhere"]. If we ignore Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's Joyus Exultation Covenant faction breaching rule '''B)''', we would have to include Sesa Refumee's Heratic faction as a Covenant Remnant as well.
Our Options are: 
* Remove Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's Joyus Exultation Covenant faction from the list.
* Or change rule '''B)''', so we include Sesa Refumee's Heretic Faction, and other applicable factions as well.
At this point the requirements for being a Covenant Remnant are seeming a bit arbitrary. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 12:58, 31 August 2016 (EDT)

:I still fail to see why this is such a big deal. By the strictest definition of the term, the Swords of Sanghelios, Servants of the Abiding Truth, Keepers of the One Freedom, the Banished, 'Gajat's group, Lydus' Master-pack, or Kig-Yar pirates are not "Covenant remnants" either. The fact is that the statement in the introduction isn't some irrefutable set of criteria. It isn't even official since there is no conclusive official definition, which leaves us to come up with the most intuitive and informative way to organize this information. Yes, Xytan's group probably doesn't qualify as a Covenant remnant, but it is also far closer to one in other respects than many of the other groups listed on the page (e.g. Lydus's master-pack, Kig-Yar pirates). 'Refumee's heretics are clearly not a "remnant" as they were destroyed while the Covenant was still whole. But I'm modifying the introduction to accommodate this. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 05:31, 1 September 2016 (EDT)
::It isn't a big deal, didn't meant to frame it as such. More so a minor concern as to why we include some factions but don't include others. Thanks for updating the definition[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 10:06, 3 September 2016 (EDT)

=== Problem Solved! ===
I'm so glad this has been resolved, I wish I had solved this problem sooner. We were all on the same page, really >.< [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 04:07, 23 October 2017 (EDT)

== Ussans ==

Having read the rest of this talk page, I approach this topic with trepidation. But I digress.

I fail to see why the Ussans are listed here as a 'Covenant remnant' simply due to the fact that its members were never really part of the Covenant in the first place. They rejected the treaty the rest of the Sangheili had signed with the Prophets and ran off.--[[User:D9328|D9328]] ([[User talk:D9328|talk]]) 18:41, 9 March 2019 (EST)d9328

:I agree. While I've made the point in the past that some of the groups listed on this page may not qualify as Covenant remnants under the strictest definition, but are still listed for the sake of accessibility, it's pretty difficult to justify the Ussans' inclusion for the reasons you mentioned. --[[User:Tacitus|Tacitus]] ([[User talk:Tacitus|talk]]) 10:43, 10 March 2019 (EDT)
::I'd say they should be included in the "other" section alongside Sesa's heretics and the Joyous Exultation summit. It's good to keep them on the page as a Covenant species-led group but as mentioned, they're definitely not ''Covenant'' remnants.[[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 12:19, 10 March 2019 (EDT)