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Talk:Ross-Ziegler Blip: Difference between revisions
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I was reading Halo Evolutions and found this in a foot note: | I was reading Halo Evolutions and found this in a foot note: | ||
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::It’s not an inconsistency. The Halo Array HAS to destroy bio-mass along with life, otherwise the Flood would simply re-animate all the corpses. So logically, there should be a gap in the fossil record, therefore it’s not an inconsistency.[[User:Tuckerscreator|'''Tuckerscreator''']] 04:48, April 22, 2010 (UTC) | ::It’s not an inconsistency. The Halo Array HAS to destroy bio-mass along with life, otherwise the Flood would simply re-animate all the corpses. So logically, there should be a gap in the fossil record, therefore it’s not an inconsistency.[[User:Tuckerscreator|'''Tuckerscreator''']] 04:48, April 22, 2010 (UTC) | ||
Nowhere is it stated that bio-mass is destroyed, that is speculation. An inconcistency cannot simply be dismissed with unfounded speculation. Read section 1.2 in [[Halopedia:What Halopedia is | Nowhere is it stated that bio-mass is destroyed, that is speculation. An inconcistency cannot simply be dismissed with unfounded speculation. Read section 1.2 in [[Halopedia:What Halopedia is]]. So it still stands.--[[User talk:Plasmic Physics|Plasmic Physics]] 06:01, April 22, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::It's not unfounded. Cortana says herself in the first game that the Halos are supposed to "starve the Flood to death." Therefore, the Flood survive the rings' firing. Thus, one has to destroy the bio-mass. Otherwise, the Gravemind would remain intact, the Flood would simply re-animate the corpses, and go on as usual with nobody to fight them. Even if destruction of bio-mass has never been "explicitly" stated, it's pretty reasonable to assume based on application of the given information. Otherwise, as the Prophet of Truth says himself, where are all the dead Forerunners?(Bones, he says, specifically.)[[User:Tuckerscreator|'''Tuckerscreator''']] 01:47, April 26, 2010 (UTC) | ::It's not unfounded. Cortana says herself in the first game that the Halos are supposed to "starve the Flood to death." Therefore, the Flood survive the rings' firing. Thus, one has to destroy the bio-mass. Otherwise, the Gravemind would remain intact, the Flood would simply re-animate the corpses, and go on as usual with nobody to fight them. Even if destruction of bio-mass has never been "explicitly" stated, it's pretty reasonable to assume based on application of the given information. Otherwise, as the Prophet of Truth says himself, where are all the dead Forerunners?(Bones, he says, specifically.)[[User:Tuckerscreator|'''Tuckerscreator''']] 01:47, April 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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Yes,this is a mass extinction, but there are some differences. This mass extinction supposedly took place a hundred thousand, not two hundred million years ago, this means that a bigger proportion of fossils should remain intact. This extinction was absolutely total and in the space of one day. We don't know how long it took before fauna was artificially returned. Now that I think about the Blip does not mention which phase it's talking about - the extinction period, or the post extinction period. The extinction period should see a massive flux of fossil evidence, whereas the post extinction period should see a null flux of fossil evidence.--[[User talk:Plasmic Physics|Plasmic Physics]] 02:28, August 7, 2010 (UTC) | Yes,this is a mass extinction, but there are some differences. This mass extinction supposedly took place a hundred thousand, not two hundred million years ago, this means that a bigger proportion of fossils should remain intact. This extinction was absolutely total and in the space of one day. We don't know how long it took before fauna was artificially returned. Now that I think about the Blip does not mention which phase it's talking about - the extinction period, or the post extinction period. The extinction period should see a massive flux of fossil evidence, whereas the post extinction period should see a null flux of fossil evidence.--[[User talk:Plasmic Physics|Plasmic Physics]] 02:28, August 7, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:As I understand it, the Ross-Ziegler Blip is just a quantum anomaly, only detectable by 23rd Century scientific instruments, dated back to the Tarantian stage of the Pleistocene epoch. There appear to be no known mass extinctions that coincide with this, though one begins 50,000 years later. Given how rare it is for fossilisation to occur at all, this is unsurprising - the vast majority of corpses simply decay, are consumed by scavengers, etc. Even if we discovered every fossil that ever existed, this would constitute a small fraction of the number of species that have existed. For an individual creature to end up as a fossil is extraordinarily unlikely and rare, and the fact that we have so many is more an indication of population size, diversity and continuity. If they did their jobs right, the Forerunners could have wiped Earth clean, repopulated it within a few decades or centuries, and the fossil record would have been none the wiser. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :As I understand it, the Ross-Ziegler Blip is just a quantum anomaly, only detectable by 23rd Century scientific instruments, dated back to the Tarantian stage of the Pleistocene epoch. There appear to be no known mass extinctions that coincide with this, though one begins 50,000 years later. Given how rare it is for fossilisation to occur at all, this is unsurprising - the vast majority of corpses simply decay, are consumed by scavengers, etc. Even if we discovered every fossil that ever existed, this would constitute a small fraction of the number of species that have existed. For an individual creature to end up as a fossil is extraordinarily unlikely and rare, and the fact that we have so many is more an indication of population size, diversity and continuity. If they did their jobs right, the Forerunners could have wiped Earth clean, repopulated it within a few decades or centuries, and the fossil record would have been none the wiser. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 02:46, August 7, 2010 (UTC) | ||
This is my current understanding of the firing of the Halo Array: | This is my current understanding of the firing of the Halo Array: | ||
The Forerunners could not destroy the Flood, despite all their efforts, so constructed [[The Ark]] and the Halo rings as a last resort measure, also constructing multiple 'shelters', e.g.'shield worlds'. The corrupt AI [[Mendicant Bias]] gave Forerunner information to the Flood, so the defence systems suddenly would have become pointless to the Forerunners, as they could be followed to them by the Flood. Therefore the Forerunners 'indexed' all sentient life (meaning organisms with higher cognitive abilities that the Flood needs to survive on, for instance Humans and Elites) with DNA samples and/or actual organisms, and then fired the rings. | The Forerunners could not destroy the Flood, despite all their efforts, so constructed [[The Ark]] and the Halo rings as a last resort measure, also constructing multiple 'shelters', e.g.'shield worlds'. The corrupt AI [[Mendicant Bias]] gave Forerunner information to the Flood, so the defence systems suddenly would have become pointless to the Forerunners, as they could be followed to them by the Flood. Therefore the Forerunners 'indexed' all sentient life (meaning organisms with higher cognitive abilities that the Flood needs to survive on, for instance Humans and Elites) with DNA samples and/or actual organisms, and then fired the rings. They then could have all left the galaxy, for all we know... It's evident they wouldn't randomly let themselves all die instead of just packing their bags and leaving. | ||
This brings us to a very large problem. Here, some of you state that except for plants (let's pretend there are just animals and plants in the universe, forgetting about the other kingdoms), all biomass was destroyed after the Rings fired. Yet the very quote on this article states that only 'certain' species were taken to the Ark, and we know that only 'sentient' species were taken to the | This brings us to a very large problem. Here, some of you state that except for plants (let's pretend there are just animals and plants in the universe, forgetting about the other kingdoms), all biomass was destroyed after the Rings fired. Yet the very quote on this article states that only 'certain' species were taken to the Ark, and we know that only 'sentient' species were taken to the Ark (this has been stated before, and is seen in Origins, where only Elites, Humans and other 'sentient' life are taken to the Ark). This already ruins the credibility of Halo: Evolutions, as the idea of only 'certain' species disappearing gets rid of the 'all biomass destroyed' and 'only humans removed from earth' theories taken away, as apparently only a few species are removed (more than just humans), but not all (so not all biomass). The only theory that seems remotely plausible to me, however, is that only humans were removed from the Ark, as this would work with the fossil record that actually exists (as a biologist I can state that the human fossil record at about 100,000 years ago is scarce), as removing all species and then adding them again would make such a revolutionary change to the fossil record that it would be obvious to any paleontologist. I don't think anyone can disagree that not all animals were indexed and removed, and only sentient life was (this has been stated several times), but the whole situation becomes more interesting because the Librarian states that: "We're receiving shipments of indexed beings more frequently than communications." Is that a canonical error, or is there just a huge amount of Human-level life in the Halo universe? Even worse, I'm pretty sure Cortana states in Halo 1 that all biomass actually IS DESTROYED, so the Flood starves. But as I said, that contradicts just about every other thing we've heard. | ||
As for which version of the Halo 'death ray' is the most plausible, once again the only one that really works is the Encyclopedia's 'harmonic pulse', because it wouldn't affect anything but sentient life like humans, so all other organisms on earth remain untouched. The idea of a ray that disintegrates life CANNOT WORK for the fact plants would be destroyed and would cease to exist. | As for which version of the Halo 'death ray' is the most plausible, once again the only one that really works is the Encyclopedia's 'harmonic pulse', because it wouldn't affect anything but sentient life like humans, so all other organisms on earth remain untouched. The idea of a ray that disintegrates life, the 'all biomass destroying' idea that goes along with the 'all animal species being taken to the Ark', CANNOT WORK for the fact plants would be destroyed and would cease to exist. | ||
Essentially to me there is a huge canon problem because different authors/scriptwriters simply don't bother to keep consistent with others. As I have stated before, if you believe EVERYTHING - encyclopedia, Legends, the games, and Halo: Evolutions, you will have a messed up jumble of problems that do not comply. | Essentially to me there is a huge canon problem because different authors/scriptwriters simply don't bother to keep consistent with others. As I have stated before, if you believe EVERYTHING - encyclopedia, Legends, the games, and Halo: Evolutions, you will have a messed up jumble of problems that do not comply. | ||
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1) Forerunners index all SENTIENT life (humans, elites, jackals, etc.) and take types of specimens (DNA, organisms) to the Ark. | 1) Forerunners index all SENTIENT life (humans, elites, jackals, etc.) and take types of specimens (DNA, organisms) to the Ark. | ||
2) The Halo rings are fired, and a harmonic pulse wipes out all Sentient life left behind in the universe. | 2) The Halo rings are fired, and a harmonic pulse wipes out all Sentient life left behind in the universe. | ||
3) The Flood starve because they can't infect plants, bacteria, dogs, cats, frogs, etc. - ONLY sentient life. (In Legends when the Flood is seen | |||
3) The Flood starve because they can't infect plants, bacteria, dogs, cats, frogs, etc. - ONLY sentient life. (In Legends when the Flood is seen falling off ships it had taken over, that can be because the biggest forms, for instance the Gravemind, that NEED sentient biomass to be sustained also die, leaving only the non-sentient spore forms alive - which are obviously still a threat, as they could start building a new gravemind all over again, but they starve as their SENTIENT food source is removed). | |||
4) Humans and other species are reintroduced, explaining the blip seen in the fossil record (the author of the quote on this article should have said in Evolutions that only the human fossil record disappears for a bit, NOT 'certain' species, though these 'certain' species could include the other members of the Homo genus that could have been living then, e.g. Neanderthals). | 4) Humans and other species are reintroduced, explaining the blip seen in the fossil record (the author of the quote on this article should have said in Evolutions that only the human fossil record disappears for a bit, NOT 'certain' species, though these 'certain' species could include the other members of the Homo genus that could have been living then, e.g. Neanderthals). | ||
For the record, Plasmic Physics has been the voice of reason, because he/she understands the contradiction in canon we already have. [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 14:12, 14 December 2010 (EST) | For the record, Plasmic Physics has been the voice of reason, because he/she understands the contradiction in canon we already have. [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 14:12, 14 December 2010 (EST) | ||
EDIT: Cortana's quote does in no way disagree with what I've been saying. She simply says that the Flood eats Humans and the Covenant - e.g. SENTIENT LIFE - once more. So can people find examples in the canon where it is stated that ALL BIOMASS, not SENTIENT LIFE, are destroyed, and these are the flood's food source? | |||
''Halo doesn't kill Flood, it kills their food! Humans, Covenant, whatever, we're all equally edible. The only way to kill the Flood is starve them to death. And that's what this ring is designed to do.'' At which point is there any indication of all biomass being destroyed? She's agreeing with me and Plasmic Physics - the ring is designed to kill sentient life, like HUMANS, not ANIMALS. Sorry for the capital overuse. [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 14:25, 14 December 2010 (EST) | |||
:Sentience cannot be understood. If it were a combination of self-awareness and intelligence, cats and dogs could be considered sentient.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 17:08, 14 December 2010 (EST) | |||
::The argument itself was on hinging on biomass being destroyed, given that Cortana said that the Array does not kill the Flood. Rewatching Origins, Infections Forms are never noted to be destroyed, only the portions and forms of the Flood that require biomass to be built. Logically, it must. Kill the infected ones, destroy the biomass, and the Flood Infection Forms and spores are left to wander and starve. Kill the infected, but don't destroy biomass, and the surviving Flood just recollects the bodies and starts all over again. Guilty Spark even says biomass is the deciding factor. | |||
::Furthermore, it doesn't necessarily have to be JUST sentient life that is saved. The Ross-Ziegler Blip was found around the 23rd century, at which point there had been no contact with the Covenant or any other sentient life. They mention the gap was found in certain species, and have not had the chance to examine the Covenant's fossil record, therefore that must mean that various animals, of both Earth and alien origin, must be Flood subsceptible too. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 19:11, 14 December 2010 (EST) | |||
Forerunner is correct about sentience; it is not an either/or situation. There are multiple sources that nullify the notion that the Flood can '''only''' infect fully sentient/sapient beings like Humans, Sangheili, etc. | |||
Tuckerscreator is also correct. | |||
The first source to demonstrate this was the Halo Graphic Novel story, "Last Flight of the Infinite Succor." In that story, the majority of the Flood forms that attacked the boarding Covenant troops were infected animals (artistic license aside), and when the Minister of Etiology describes what he knows about the Flood to Rtas Vadum, he describes the Flood taking control of living or dead animals. | |||
The next source is Halo Wars and the Flood presence on the Shield World. Though not often mentioned, most of the Flood there were in fact infected native life forms. The Flood Swarms, for instance, were described as being "Infected buzzards crossed with evil bats" in the February 2009 issue of Gamepro that had a feature article on the game. If one reads between the lines, what is basically being said is that those flying Flood forms are in fact infected and re-purposed animals, in this case aerial predators. | |||
Though not stated, similar origins can be shown for the Thrasher and Bomber forms; the former shows mutations and physical structures completely consistent with the conversion and re-purposing of an advanced organism, and the latter shows evidence of having been an aerial organism before being taken. The article's summary of the skirmish map “Release” is even further enlightening; it describes the Flood as having been in control of the planet's biosphere for thousands of years, and even asks what the Flood would do if it were desperate, specifically what it would do to trees. While the map is not part of the game's story, the subject involved is fully present. | |||
The components of the Flood infestation on the Shield World are largely derived from the flora and fauna of that world, while the various stationary forms are structures of the Flood hive on that planet. Evidence of the Flood's effects on semi-sentient and fully non-sentient life can be seen in the Halo 3 multiplayer map “Isolation”, which has Flood biomass digesting and overtaking plant life in a research enclosure on the Ark. This is manifested in the presence of Flood growth pods on the map's lower levels, and the fungus-like growths coming up to the surface. | |||
Finally, a major piece of information regarding this aspect of the Flood in the re-issue of “Halo: The Flood”, specifically in the last entry of the book's extra content. | |||
“Terminal L | |||
Report 12 | |||
Batch 416 | |||
Span 1445 | |||
Military activity beyond the sphere is becoming frantic. The relative calm here impedes my sense of urgency. I find myself reading their reports just to provoke my own emotional response. | |||
My report, however, isn't quite so dramatic. | |||
::As predicted, the oceanic life is taking longer to catalog than the terrestrial and mammalian populations. What is hampering this collection isn't pressure or friction or depth but rather simplifying categorization. It is rare that we find so many disparate flavors of intelligence in a single habitat, but to find mammalian [standard] intelligence along with Schyzophoa and Cephalopoda in oceans further enhances the theory that this planet has seen interference or experiment in its past. This kind of distributed intellectual symmetry tends to hint at artifice. | |||
What's making things more difficult is the rather distasteful process of testing living samples against simulated attack." | |||
This entry, from the Librarian herself, details a great deal more information, including her observations of Earth's Hominids, which is very relevatory in their relationship with the Forerunners, but that is not pertinent to this topic. | |||
With these combined sources, it is very clear that Flood is capable of infecting and utilizing a wide range of organisms, not just technology-using and space-faring sentients. The Flood use plants, smaller animals, etc. as material for creating its spread of biomass and the basics of its hive structures, while higher-order animals, such as predators and herbivores, are directly infected and used as cruder versions of Combat Forms. Animals that would be used for such a purpose would be animals like Gorillas, Elephants, perhaps lions, and maybe wolves. | |||
If the Librarian's entry is to be understood, even oceanic life is not immune, and animals in the groups she mentioned, especially Cephalopods, would be used. Due to their overall intelligence, Cetaceans such as dolphins and Orcas would also be taken. This shows that the Flood are far more versatile and powerful than one might have thought. | |||
If the Flood could only utilize space-faring and civilization-producing species, they would be much weaker than they are, and could potentially be lured and/or isolated on non-sentient planets and succumb to starvation. | |||
--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 20:24, 14 December 2010 (EST) | |||
:I fully concede my point. Not only humans are therefore considered sentient. I had totally forgot about the ''Infinite Succor''. This does not disagree with my point, though - all sentient life was taken, but many species were left behind, which was alright because the 'harmonic pulse' can only kill sentient life. But yes, the Flood can infect dead biomass, so in fact it must actually DESTROY sentient biomass. Therefore shouldn't it also destroy some Flood, since some of the more advanced Flood can only function by hijacking sentient biomass (the Gravemind is an assimilation of sentient forms)? I wish someone could compile ALL references to the purpose and effects of the Halo Array. Then any inconsistencies could be ironed out once and for all. [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 02:47, 15 December 2010 (EST) | |||
I'm sure that probably SOME Flood is probably killed, such as the Pure Forms, but more out of the sudden robbing of their entire body versus the strike of the Array itself, essentially a death by side effect. What happens to the Gravemind is uncertain, since it managed to survive the destruction of High Charity, albiet "blown apart", but at least it would be greatly weakened, and eventually succumb to starvation like all the rest. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:34, 15 December 2010 (EST) | |||
:I believe that while the array can destroy Flood ''beings'', it cannot destroy all flood organisms. Infection and spore forms lack intelligence and would survive the array. Therefore, Cortana was technically right in saying that the rings only kill the Flood's food. Remember that re-purposed lifeforms are still human/sangheili, etc., and would be affected by the pulse, anyway. The actual flood lifeforms such as the infection and spore forms are left unaffected (I don't know about pure forms, though).-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 13:12, 15 December 2010 (EST) | |||