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Talk:Swords of Sanghelios: Difference between revisions
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:The idea of the Elites being "separatists" is a misconception we've been perpetuating for years now. The term originally came from the problem of what to call them, and I vaguely remember it was inspired by the Separatists in Star Wars, for reasons that elude me. The Arbiter, in Halo 3, makes it explicitly clear that he still considers himself "Covenant," and that it's a war for control of its territory, materiel and people rather than a war of secession. | :The idea of the Elites being "separatists" is a misconception we've been perpetuating for years now. The term originally came from the problem of what to call them, and I vaguely remember it was inspired by the Separatists in Star Wars, for reasons that elude me. The Arbiter, in Halo 3, makes it explicitly clear that he still considers himself "Covenant," and that it's a war for control of its territory, materiel and people rather than a war of secession. | ||
:The idea that the Elites ''left'' the Covenant is another misconception that's been circulating for a long time - the Elite Councillors ''threatened'' to resign, in protest at the changing of the guard. They never got the chance. Post-war, it's clear that the Swords of Sanghelios is a different entity to the Covenant, in the same way that the Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union. | :The idea that the Elites ''left'' the Covenant is another misconception that's been circulating for a long time - the Elite Councillors ''threatened'' to resign, in protest at the changing of the guard. They never got the chance. Post-war, it's clear that the Swords of Sanghelios is a different entity to the Covenant, in the same way that the Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union. | ||
:Both "Loyalist" and "Separatist" terms are misnomers, and I'd favour phasing them out of the wiki entirely. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[ | :Both "Loyalist" and "Separatist" terms are misnomers, and I'd favour phasing them out of the wiki entirely. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:14, 12 October 2015 (EDT) | ||
::Really the only Seperatist things left are two files, [http://www.halopedia.org/File:Seperatist_fleet_ark.jpg] and [http://www.halopedia.org/File:343_Guilty_Spark_Seperatist_UNSC.jpg] [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 09:20, 12 October 2015 (EDT) | ::Really the only Seperatist things left are two files, [http://www.halopedia.org/File:Seperatist_fleet_ark.jpg] and [http://www.halopedia.org/File:343_Guilty_Spark_Seperatist_UNSC.jpg] [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 09:20, 12 October 2015 (EDT) | ||
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::Ooohh, I see. In articles I often see the Swords of Sanghelios (the Elites the allied with the humans during the end of the war) called Swords of Sanghelios before they became officially established. Should this be changed? Maybe instead have the wording say "The faction that would later be known as Swords of Sanghelios" and link that to Swords of Sanghelios? Maybe saying Sangheili in general would be more accurate, when referring to the entirety of the "separatist" faction? [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 17:31, 27 May 2016 (EDT) | ::Ooohh, I see. In articles I often see the Swords of Sanghelios (the Elites the allied with the humans during the end of the war) called Swords of Sanghelios before they became officially established. Should this be changed? Maybe instead have the wording say "The faction that would later be known as Swords of Sanghelios" and link that to Swords of Sanghelios? Maybe saying Sangheili in general would be more accurate, when referring to the entirety of the "separatist" faction? [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 17:31, 27 May 2016 (EDT) | ||
:::It's occasionally in some articles because some editors make the mistake that the Swords of Sanghelios weren't officially established until later and I don't notice it. And I wouldn't even go as far as to say that they eventually become the Swords of Sanghelios because we know that even some Sangheili that served under the Arbiter and Rtas in the final days of the Covenant War eventually enlisted with other factions including 'Mdama's Covenant after the war ended. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 17:42, 27 May 2016 (EDT) | :::It's occasionally in some articles because some editors make the minor mistake of not realizing/forgetting that the Swords of Sanghelios weren't officially established until later and I don't notice it. And I wouldn't even go as far as to say that they eventually become the Swords of Sanghelios because we know that even some Sangheili that served under the Arbiter and Rtas in the final days of the Covenant War eventually enlisted with other factions including 'Mdama's Covenant after the war ended. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 17:42, 27 May 2016 (EDT) | ||
::::I agree. Since the SOS wasn't established during the events in h2 and h3, the faction of Elites Separatists that become allied to humanity do have a proper name. Replacing SOS with Fleet of Retribution in those instances are a lot more accurate considering that the SOS didn't exist at that time. And it still accounts for the Elites that defected from the Arbiter after the war. The Fleet of Retribution emcompasses all the Elites that allied to humans during those events, and existed during that time period (unlike the SOS). All and all, it's a more lore friendly choice than SOS when referring to the allied ELites from Halo 2 and Halo 3.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 03:17, 29 July 2016 (EDT) | |||
:::::We know that the hierarchs and a number of other prophets launched a coup that effectively severed the Writ of Union made between San'Shyuum and Sangheili. We also know that the majority of Sangheili did not just decide to fight with humanity at that point. We know from examples like Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's and Jul 'Mdama's that not everyone was willing to just throw away the monicker or idea of the Covenant. The Great Schism didn't make Xytan give up on the genocide of humanity, after all. "Separatist", in this case, would denote someone who did wish to put the Covenant completely behind them and start on an entirely new footing. | |||
:::::::Jul's Covenant and Xytan's group were very different though. Xytan's group was very much an active part of the Separatist (Rebellion, Resistance, whatever you wanna call it) movement against the Covenant. Jul's Covenant on the other hand, was created after the war ended to recreate the Covenant. Xytan's group was just like Thel and Rtas' group, they all worked to destroy the Covenant Empire that betrayed them. If anything Xytan could be seen as more vicious towards the Covenant Empire, as he planned a coup to massacre the Jiralhanae and San'Shyuum. The only difference between Xytan's group versus Thel and Rtas's group, is that Xytan's group didn't ally with the humans and continued to attack them. Which is why I think calling Xytan's group a separate faction of it's own is an assumption rather than a fact. Xytan's group could very well just have been another division of Sangheili fighting the Covenant Empire in its own way, like the Thel and Rtas' Fleet of Retribution. | |||
:::::::The real splintering of the Sangheili happened after the war ended, as they no longer had the common threat of the Covenant Empire that betrayed them. Hence why almost all the post war Covenant factions are created after 2553. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:59, 8 December 2016 (EST) | |||
==Member category== | ==Member category== | ||
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::I think we should remove the Kig-Yar, though I don't think it's safe to say that High Councilors are still a part of the SoS. Some of the Covenant's Councilors joined up with them, but they may have decided to take combat roles or civilian roles. It would be best to avoid speculation. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 12:28, 22 December 2015 (EST) | ::I think we should remove the Kig-Yar, though I don't think it's safe to say that High Councilors are still a part of the SoS. Some of the Covenant's Councilors joined up with them, but they may have decided to take combat roles or civilian roles. It would be best to avoid speculation. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 12:28, 22 December 2015 (EST) | ||
== Formation == | |||
I think we need to mention in the article at what point the SOS became the SOS. Because they didn't officially become the SOS until after Halo 3. | |||
[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 17:04, 8 June 2016 (EDT) | |||
''"With Truth dead, High Charity destroyed, and Installation 00 essentially lost to the reborn Installation 04 firing, what remained of the Covenant was all but destroyed, with its member species divided into multiple factions. In the wake of the conflict, the Arbiter and his allies—now rallying under the name Swords of Sanghelios"'' | |||
[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 18:01, 8 June 2016 (EDT) | |||
:Yeah, we don't really have a specific date for when they were established. We just kind of presume they were established by early/mid-2553, even if it wasn't as official as it is in 2558. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 00:48, 29 July 2016 (EDT) | |||
==Canon Fodder 94== | |||
{{Quote|On some units, members of the Swords of Sanghelios have incorporated a verdant iridescent sheen into the coloration; a poignant homage commissioned by the Arbiter to honor the '''Sangheili separatists''' that fought alongside human forces at the close of the Covenant War.|{{Plain|[https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/bounty-hunters Today's Canon Fodder]}}.}} | |||
Does this mean 343 has taken and canonized the old term we used here to mean the collective Sangheili rebellion against the Prophets? Kind of like [[Covenant remnants]]? Or is it just coincidence and not meant as a legitimate term? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:17, 7 December 2016 (EST) | |||
:I would caution against adopting it until we see it in a context that is more than a descriptor, where we can clearly see it's an official name. And even if we get that, we've seen it only in the context of Halo 3, and clarifying that these are different to the modern Sangheili faction, which precludes merging it with Swords of Sanghelios. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 17:05, 7 December 2016 (EST) | |||
Indeed; if it were proven legitimate, I would still say it should be a separate article from Swords of Sanghelios. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:24, 7 December 2016 (EST) | |||
:I honestly think we should bring back the Covenant Separatists page, it clarified a lot and was only removed because it was mistakenly thought to be the Swords of Sanghelios. Regarding the officialness of the name, we have many pages with unofficial names like "Post-Covenant War Conflicts". The Separatists themselves though are official. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:17, 7 December 2016 (EST) | |||
::"Sangheili separatists" is not the name of a faction, though, as you're positing. It's a description, much as how one might say "human rebels". Still, it is odd that they are considered "separatists" seeing as they were ''forced'' out by the Prophets. I'm with Morhek on this. I think it can be chalked up to an instance of fandom terminology bleed-through, unless it starts cropping up more. | |||
::As for the matter of the Fleet of Retribution/Swords of Sanghelios, I'm of the mind that while it is definitely true that the Swords had not been officially established back then, there is an undeniable continuity between Thel and Rtas' group during the Schism and the later Swords of Sanghelios. The group during the Schism was not a proper organization like the Swords, just a collection of ex-Covenant (mainly Sangheili) who happened to agree with Thel and Rtas (who were not necessarily confined to the Fleet of Retribution). Essentially a proto-SoS without a name, government or anything that would distinguish them into their own "thing". As such, I don't think there's enough of a difference to warrant their separation into their own article, and I believe the way we have them documented in the history section of this page is quite fine. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 05:54, 8 December 2016 (EST) | |||
:::Looks like it's been changed: "...a poignant homage commissioned by the Arbiter to honor the '''Sangheili rebels''' that fought alongside human forces at the close of the Covenant War." Still, I doubt this is anything but a descriptor too. -- [[User:Topal the Pilot|'''Topal the Pilot''']] [[File:Blueteam.png|20px]] <small>([[User talk:Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Talk'''</span>]]|[[Special:Contributions/Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Contribs'''</span>]])</small> 18:12, 8 December 2016 (EST) | |||
::::I wonder if Grim changed it cause he saw our conversation xD[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:39, 8 December 2016 (EST) | |||
:::::He most likely noticed that separatists were not the correct word for them. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 22:38, 8 December 2016 (EST) | |||
== Halo 3 "Schism" Weapons And Vehicle Skins == | |||
This question has been on my mind for a while, does the color green, such as the green Phantoms, green Banshees, green Ghosts, and even some green weapons, show that the wielder is affiliated with the Swords of Sangheilios? | |||
"Crimson and ivory, or red-gold armor indicates some form of affiliation to the Swords of Sanghelios" | |||
Per the description of Halo 3's skins that have "Schism", it seems to be "for those seeking redemption". I'm not sure if this could mean that all Elite Separatists can have green colored weapons and vehicles, or if it's specifically for the Swords of Sangheilios. [[User:A Type-46 ISV|A Type-46 ISV]] ([[User talk:A Type-46 ISV|talk]]) 13:10, June 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:The intention of them is certainly to call back to the Arbiter's Halo 3-era forces, and in a fan work I'd certainly argue it appropriate to depict them as using these weapons (campaign mods pls). However, we can't really say much on a canonical basis that those weapons ''were'' used by the Swords of Sanghelios - much in the same vein as the Brutal skins being used by the Jiralhanae or the Ultra skins being used by the Evocati etc. It makes a lot of sense to assume these are the case, but there isn't any factual canon stating as such.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 13:12, June 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||