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Talk:Covenant/Archive 2: Difference between revisions
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:You're also making the logical fallacy that Heroic is a "realistic" mode. This is a game that features superheated plasma whizzing about on spaceships on ringworlds. Claiming that ''any'' gameplay is "realistic" is absurd. No Bungie or 343 source has ever said that it is meant to represent how it would happen "in real life" - they just say it's "how it's meant to be played", ie; from a ''gameplay'' point of view. This is a product designed to entertain gamers, not a military simulator. It is representative at best, at worst merely a designer choice for gameplay balance and challenge. If the Marines in-game were a match for the Covenant, it would be a pretty easy game. In the universe, UNSC ground forces have the advantage in tactics and strategy, communication, and environmental familiarity. The Covenant use brute force and mass numbers. | :You're also making the logical fallacy that Heroic is a "realistic" mode. This is a game that features superheated plasma whizzing about on spaceships on ringworlds. Claiming that ''any'' gameplay is "realistic" is absurd. No Bungie or 343 source has ever said that it is meant to represent how it would happen "in real life" - they just say it's "how it's meant to be played", ie; from a ''gameplay'' point of view. This is a product designed to entertain gamers, not a military simulator. It is representative at best, at worst merely a designer choice for gameplay balance and challenge. If the Marines in-game were a match for the Covenant, it would be a pretty easy game. In the universe, UNSC ground forces have the advantage in tactics and strategy, communication, and environmental familiarity. The Covenant use brute force and mass numbers. | ||
:Finally, I'd like to direct you to a few inconvenient facts concerning the Spartans. Firstly, the biggest effect they had was to UNSC morale - in World War Two, America published comics about Superman kicking the collective asses of Hirohito, Mussolini and Hitler. Now imagine that Superman ''actually exists'' and that there are ''thirty five of them''. They were a propaganda coup. Secondly, the Spartans are deployed in ''limited'' circumstances, usually as last-resort forces or as special operations forces for missions that could never be accomplished by "normal" humans - out-numbered, out-gunned, and out-flanked, and still win. Thirdly, with the exception of the suicide S-III Companies, there were never more than two dozen S-IIs. Spartans could never hope to win the war on their own, because they were spread ''far'' too thinly to have that huge a difference. But they were extremely valuable for motivating Marines and Troopers, and for precision strikes. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :Finally, I'd like to direct you to a few inconvenient facts concerning the Spartans. Firstly, the biggest effect they had was to UNSC morale - in World War Two, America published comics about Superman kicking the collective asses of Hirohito, Mussolini and Hitler. Now imagine that Superman ''actually exists'' and that there are ''thirty five of them''. They were a propaganda coup. Secondly, the Spartans are deployed in ''limited'' circumstances, usually as last-resort forces or as special operations forces for missions that could never be accomplished by "normal" humans - out-numbered, out-gunned, and out-flanked, and still win. Thirdly, with the exception of the suicide S-III Companies, there were never more than two dozen S-IIs. Spartans could never hope to win the war on their own, because they were spread ''far'' too thinly to have that huge a difference. But they were extremely valuable for motivating Marines and Troopers, and for precision strikes. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 06:35, 5 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
Covenant have just mass numbers and brute force..? Maybe for the Brutes yes, but what about the Elites I could have sworn it said several times enough for us Halopedians to get it through our heads, they are ''masterfully skilled tacticians'' or ''excellent tacticians renowned for their ferocity and decisive thinking''. What about those covenants, and of course everyone uses strategy even if it invloves overwhelming force (take the flood for example). Or is Halopedia trying to create a social hierarchy in which: | Covenant have just mass numbers and brute force..? Maybe for the Brutes yes, but what about the Elites I could have sworn it said several times enough for us Halopedians to get it through our heads, they are ''masterfully skilled tacticians'' or ''excellent tacticians renowned for their ferocity and decisive thinking''. What about those covenants, and of course everyone uses strategy even if it invloves overwhelming force (take the flood for example). Or is Halopedia trying to create a social hierarchy in which: | ||
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:I'm sorry, are you calling me racist? | :I'm sorry, are you calling me racist? | ||
:Compared to other Covenant members, like the Grunts or Brutes, the Elites ''are'' superior tacticians and strategists. And they're not bad at it. But they still rely and brute force and numbers, even if they apply it in a much more intelligent manner. I'm not trying to create any sort of social hierarchy, because a society's military performance is not a reflection on the society's values or robustness. This is simply the mindset of the Elites, compared to that of humans - an emphasis on smaller, more effective teams cooperating, better communication between units, and different branches supporting each other. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :Compared to other Covenant members, like the Grunts or Brutes, the Elites ''are'' superior tacticians and strategists. And they're not bad at it. But they still rely and brute force and numbers, even if they apply it in a much more intelligent manner. I'm not trying to create any sort of social hierarchy, because a society's military performance is not a reflection on the society's values or robustness. This is simply the mindset of the Elites, compared to that of humans - an emphasis on smaller, more effective teams cooperating, better communication between units, and different branches supporting each other. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 15:41, 5 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
:Not so far that ''you'' are racist no. But there does seem to be some sort of social hierarchy made with humans at the top, Elites second and all other races at the bottom. As if the UNSC are supposed to be these "tactical role-models" and the Sangheili just look up to them (stupidly) and even consider their own tactics "dishonourable"... Thats what I mean, my point is how come covenant ground tactics always get slated on in the stories and other sources despite the fact that its blatantly obvious how "masterfully skilled tacticians" the elites are or how halopedia portrays them to be.. thats what im getting at. Halopedia implies even the elites suck at ground combat against the humans (and ground combat is pretty much the elites' life anyway so that cant be right)... | :Not so far that ''you'' are racist no. But there does seem to be some sort of social hierarchy made with humans at the top, Elites second and all other races at the bottom. As if the UNSC are supposed to be these "tactical role-models" and the Sangheili just look up to them (stupidly) and even consider their own tactics "dishonourable"... Thats what I mean, my point is how come covenant ground tactics always get slated on in the stories and other sources despite the fact that its blatantly obvious how "masterfully skilled tacticians" the elites are or how halopedia portrays them to be.. thats what im getting at. Halopedia implies even the elites suck at ground combat against the humans (and ground combat is pretty much the elites' life anyway so that cant be right)... | ||
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:The tactics that Elites use are medieval, or roughly that. I don't mean that in any negative way - at the time, the tactics used by medieval armies were ideal for the types of battles they fought. The Covenant are still trapped in that mentality. The Elites are brilliant, and have proven innovative ''when compared to other Covenant species''. Against humans, they're very good at small-scale operations - deploying and coordinating teams of warriors in combat. But on the larger scale, they're still using medieval tactics with technology beyond their understanding. Think about it. Give Henry V's army lasers and spaceships, and pit them against the US military. You'll find that the aristocracy has been groomed as officers since childhood, and have a mindset of how their combat should be, but there will be some who adapt. The US military will use far superior tactics and strategies, having the advantages of radio, a regimented chain of command, promotion by merit rather than by political/familial ties, etc, but they would still be out-gunned and, in keeping with medieval military practice, outnumbered. Instead of aristocrats, you have the Elites. Instead of Archers, you have Jackals; Grunts replace Pikemen, Brutes replace Knights, and Hunters are literal seige engines. Drones...the metaphor doesn't really extend to them. Would they be the wall of flaming arrows coming at you? Even Wraith remind me of Catapults, punting their loads of plasma in a parabolic arch, like a trebuchet. The use of Banshee's in-atmosphere has always reminded me more of World War I or II propellor-driven planes than the sleek, fast fighters we use today. | :The tactics that Elites use are medieval, or roughly that. I don't mean that in any negative way - at the time, the tactics used by medieval armies were ideal for the types of battles they fought. The Covenant are still trapped in that mentality. The Elites are brilliant, and have proven innovative ''when compared to other Covenant species''. Against humans, they're very good at small-scale operations - deploying and coordinating teams of warriors in combat. But on the larger scale, they're still using medieval tactics with technology beyond their understanding. Think about it. Give Henry V's army lasers and spaceships, and pit them against the US military. You'll find that the aristocracy has been groomed as officers since childhood, and have a mindset of how their combat should be, but there will be some who adapt. The US military will use far superior tactics and strategies, having the advantages of radio, a regimented chain of command, promotion by merit rather than by political/familial ties, etc, but they would still be out-gunned and, in keeping with medieval military practice, outnumbered. Instead of aristocrats, you have the Elites. Instead of Archers, you have Jackals; Grunts replace Pikemen, Brutes replace Knights, and Hunters are literal seige engines. Drones...the metaphor doesn't really extend to them. Would they be the wall of flaming arrows coming at you? Even Wraith remind me of Catapults, punting their loads of plasma in a parabolic arch, like a trebuchet. The use of Banshee's in-atmosphere has always reminded me more of World War I or II propellor-driven planes than the sleek, fast fighters we use today. | ||
:The Elites work with what they have, and they've done well with the mindset they're stuck with. They have to face a "modern" military, though, which presents different challenges - better unit cohesiveness, inter-branch cooperation, and use of communication to align the tactical with the strategic. Old tactics and strategies that were once good enough are now rendered obsolete, and the Covenant's primary advantages, as said before, are numbers and firepower. The Elites have to adapt to these new tactics. It isn't hierarchical at all, except for the Covenant - the tactics used by the Elites are just as valid as those used by the humans. In | :The Elites work with what they have, and they've done well with the mindset they're stuck with. They have to face a "modern" military, though, which presents different challenges - better unit cohesiveness, inter-branch cooperation, and use of communication to align the tactical with the strategic. Old tactics and strategies that were once good enough are now rendered obsolete, and the Covenant's primary advantages, as said before, are numbers and firepower. The Elites have to adapt to these new tactics. It isn't hierarchical at all, except for the Covenant - the tactics used by the Elites are just as valid as those used by the humans. In Halo: The Flood we see the Elites perform a literal cavalry charge on Ghosts - the ODSTs respond by adopting a medieval tactic of a box formation, except instead of a wall of pikes and spears, they create a wall of flying lead. In [[Halo: Ghosts of Onyx]], they sacrifice dozens of Grunts in a diversionary tactic for the ''real'' assault force to reach a more defensible attack position. Archaic? Yes. Intelligent? Very much yes. We know that the Elites are tactically intelligent enough to create the highly successful Special Operations units, which have a devastating effect, and are intelligent enough to turn human weapons and personnel against them. They're starting off from a different mindset, though, which needs to be offset or compensated for. The result is a hybridised mix of traditional "medieval" elements, combined with elements borrowed from or adapted for the humans - Seraph fighters/bombers, special operations troops, Drone air cover, orbital fire support, etc. My point is, it is this adaptation that proves the Elite's certainly aren't the "throw cannon fodder until they fall back" strategists you think we think they are. | ||
:If the wall of text is a bit intimidating, it boils down to this - there is no "hierarchy" of better-vs-worse. The Elites have a different battle doctrine than the UNSC. That's all. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :If the wall of text is a bit intimidating, it boils down to this - there is no "hierarchy" of better-vs-worse. The Elites have a different battle doctrine than the UNSC. That's all. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 05:19, 7 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
::I love you...r explanations. ;) — <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:57, 7 April 2011 (EDT) | ::I love you...r explanations. ;) — <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:57, 7 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
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(sorry for continuing this already decided debate) Wait, ''r'' as in "are" or "our"?[[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 16:42, 7 April 2011 (EDT)! | (sorry for continuing this already decided debate) Wait, ''r'' as in "are" or "our"?[[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 16:42, 7 April 2011 (EDT)! | ||
:::My explanations love you too, Subs! -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :::My explanations love you too, Subs! -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 18:06, 7 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
Dont you think that ought to straighten up then, because if you take the Elites into account to say the Covenant as ground warriors, are much less capable than the UNSC is a sweeping statement. Even the Jiralhanae (for as thick as they are sometimes) have had their moments of tactical cunningness, not to mention they dont even have a code of honour restricting them (unlike the other-wise smarter Sangheili). So the Covenant ARE good tacticians (like some of the UNSC such as Cole and Keyes in particular)... | Dont you think that ought to straighten up then, because if you take the Elites into account to say the Covenant as ground warriors, are much less capable than the UNSC is a sweeping statement. Even the Jiralhanae (for as thick as they are sometimes) have had their moments of tactical cunningness, not to mention they dont even have a code of honour restricting them (unlike the other-wise smarter Sangheili). So the Covenant ARE good tacticians (like some of the UNSC such as Cole and Keyes in particular)... | ||
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--[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 18:17, 8 April 2011 (EDT) | --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 18:17, 8 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
:Once again, you're using ''very limited examples'' to base the entire war on. It's like saying America won World War II with one hand tied behind its back, because all you watch is the History Channel - ignoring Britain's struggle to resist Nazi invasion, the vastly more devastating conflict between Germany and Russia, and the efforts of resistance groups. You see Spartans making an impact ''because that's the story that is being told''. The games are ''about'' the Spartans - the trilogy is about the messianic journey of the Master Chief, Reach is about the tragic fall of the Spartans. We don't get shown the Marine stories because ''they aren't the heroes'', except in ODST, which did it very well, and in Halo Wars, where the gameplay doesn't show it in as much detail. We've seen in the novels and, yes, some of the anime shorts, that humans do pretty well against ground forces. Our dependence on nuclear weapons doesn't really seem like a dependence - how many times have we seen nuclear weapons used? The HAVOK in Fall of Reach. The attack of the cruiser in First Strike. The NOVA in Ghosts of Onyx. None of these are "conventional" battles - two out of the three have Spartans who, as I've proven, are not typical. The last is also exceptional, in that it was a prototype. We are even told in Ghosts of Onyx that by the 2530's that ''the UNSC are running out of nukes''. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :Once again, you're using ''very limited examples'' to base the entire war on. It's like saying America won World War II with one hand tied behind its back, because all you watch is the History Channel - ignoring Britain's struggle to resist Nazi invasion, the vastly more devastating conflict between Germany and Russia, and the efforts of resistance groups. You see Spartans making an impact ''because that's the story that is being told''. The games are ''about'' the Spartans - the trilogy is about the messianic journey of the Master Chief, Reach is about the tragic fall of the Spartans. We don't get shown the Marine stories because ''they aren't the heroes'', except in ODST, which did it very well, and in Halo Wars, where the gameplay doesn't show it in as much detail. We've seen in the novels and, yes, some of the anime shorts, that humans do pretty well against ground forces. Our dependence on nuclear weapons doesn't really seem like a dependence - how many times have we seen nuclear weapons used? The HAVOK in Fall of Reach. The attack of the cruiser in First Strike. The NOVA in Ghosts of Onyx. None of these are "conventional" battles - two out of the three have Spartans who, as I've proven, are not typical. The last is also exceptional, in that it was a prototype. We are even told in Ghosts of Onyx that by the 2530's that ''the UNSC are running out of nukes''. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 20:03, 8 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
Exactly, my point ''is'' that its the SPARTANS who make the impact, which is exactly why when I didnt have a halo account I tried to change add in brackets (though it may be to do with spartans' capability as ground combatants) but it kept getting reverted. Personally, I would change it from "It may be noted that despite that their technology is far more superior to the humans and their numbers are much larger as well, the covenant as ground warriors are much less capable and are often defeated and are often forced to retreat to glass the planet from space" to something more like this "The Covenant ground forces are mainly composed by Grunts, whom are used as cannon fodder and usually weaker than the UNSC ground forces along with the Jackals. However the other species, though less in number, fare much better than the UNSC in combat situations. The presence of a SPARTAN, however, may drastically improve the odds for the UNSC." something along those lines, but ''definetly'' not the first one. I mean, just the one sentence just makes the Covies look completely bad and unprofessional, it DOESNT do any justice to the Covenant Empire at all. They're the bad guys all right, but I wouldnt call them "bad" at it. | Exactly, my point ''is'' that its the SPARTANS who make the impact, which is exactly why when I didnt have a halo account I tried to change add in brackets (though it may be to do with spartans' capability as ground combatants) but it kept getting reverted. Personally, I would change it from "It may be noted that despite that their technology is far more superior to the humans and their numbers are much larger as well, the covenant as ground warriors are much less capable and are often defeated and are often forced to retreat to glass the planet from space" to something more like this "The Covenant ground forces are mainly composed by Grunts, whom are used as cannon fodder and usually weaker than the UNSC ground forces along with the Jackals. However the other species, though less in number, fare much better than the UNSC in combat situations. The presence of a SPARTAN, however, may drastically improve the odds for the UNSC." something along those lines, but ''definetly'' not the first one. I mean, just the one sentence just makes the Covies look completely bad and unprofessional, it DOESNT do any justice to the Covenant Empire at all. They're the bad guys all right, but I wouldnt call them "bad" at it. | ||
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--[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 01:40, 9 April 2011 (EDT) | --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 01:40, 9 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
:I agree with you completely on debate. As long as it remains civil and doesn't degenerate into a shouting match, debates here, using facts and opinions, can be awesome! I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed countering your points with my own, and it's solidified some of my own ideas about the Covenant in my mind. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :I agree with you completely on debate. As long as it remains civil and doesn't degenerate into a shouting match, debates here, using facts and opinions, can be awesome! I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed countering your points with my own, and it's solidified some of my own ideas about the Covenant in my mind. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:58, 9 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
I agree, you certainly have a mind inside that head of yours and its a pleasure to discuss with you and what you've said has also made things clearer for me in my mind regarding UNSC and Covenant an all that yeah, thanks. I dont think its regressed into a shouting match at the moment, thankfully lol. | I agree, you certainly have a mind inside that head of yours and its a pleasure to discuss with you and what you've said has also made things clearer for me in my mind regarding UNSC and Covenant an all that yeah, thanks. I dont think its regressed into a shouting match at the moment, thankfully lol. | ||
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== Request for Move - July 2010 == | == Request for Move - July 2010 == | ||
Archive:Requests for Move/Covenant Empire - July 2010 | |||
== Uh...What? == | == Uh...What? == | ||
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I am pretty sure that the first picture is not relevant to this page. --[[User talk:Spartan-08686|Spartan-08686]] 01:28, 11 November 2010 (EST) | I am pretty sure that the first picture is not relevant to this page. --[[User talk:Spartan-08686|Spartan-08686]] 01:28, 11 November 2010 (EST) | ||
Well, according to the description the symbol is from "Halo: Combat Evolved" and is the symbol of the Covenant. Whether this is true or speculation remains to be seen.... | Well, according to the description the symbol is from "Halo: Combat Evolved" and is the symbol of the Covenant. Whether this is true or speculation remains to be seen.... User talk:Eaite Randjam 11:33, 11 November 2010 (EST) | ||
[[File: | [[File:HaloWars-CovenantSymbol.png|right|200px|thumb|The unknown Covenant emblem seen in Halo Wars.]] | ||
:What about the emblem of the Covenant seen in Halo Wars? Is this an alternate national emblem, or just the emblem of a particular Covenant fleet or something? I was going to post it in the article, maybe in an added Gallery section, but I'm not sure I should do that until I figure out what this curious emblem means. Until then, I think I'm gonna need a little help in identifying this. Definitely cannot just mean "Species" in general, as the Halopedia Main Page might suggest, though. [[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 16:41, 26 September 2011 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | :What about the emblem of the Covenant seen in Halo Wars? Is this an alternate national emblem, or just the emblem of a particular Covenant fleet or something? I was going to post it in the article, maybe in an added Gallery section, but I'm not sure I should do that until I figure out what this curious emblem means. Until then, I think I'm gonna need a little help in identifying this. Definitely cannot just mean "Species" in general, as the Halopedia Main Page might suggest, though. [[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 16:41, 26 September 2011 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | ||
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Where are the Skirmishers? I believe that they were part of the Covenant, too. --[[User talk:Spartan-08686|Spartan-08686]] 00:08, 6 December 2010 (EST) | Where are the Skirmishers? I believe that they were part of the Covenant, too. --[[User talk:Spartan-08686|Spartan-08686]] 00:08, 6 December 2010 (EST) | ||
:they're included in the kig-yar section-- | :they're included in the kig-yar section--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 11:17, 6 December 2010 (EST) | ||
== Suggestion for Species Section == | == Suggestion for Species Section == | ||
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==Proposal: Rename to "Covenant" (poll) (closed)== | ==Proposal: Rename to "Covenant" (poll) (closed)== | ||
I've doubted for some time whether we should use the name "Covenant Empire" as the main title as opposed to simply "Covenant", and I feel this issue's been ignored for far too long. There was | I've doubted for some time whether we should use the name "Covenant Empire" as the main title as opposed to simply "Covenant", and I feel this issue's been ignored for far too long. There was a proposal about this a little over a year ago, and there were several people who supported the move for reasons I feel were better explained than the opposing votes. The vote went nowhere, likely in part due to lack of visibility, because there was another large-scale move discussion overshadowing it, and also because there weren't really any proper reasons outlined. I'm going to correct that here, and see if we could finally do something about this. | ||
To elaborate, it seems contradictory that we treat the name "Covenant Empire" as the primary name of the faction and commonly use it in our articles, despite the title's extremely limited - and context-sensitive - use in the fiction itself. As everyone most likely knows, the faction is simply called "Covenant" or "The Covenant" virtually everywhere in the ''Halo'' canon. The only exceptions, as far as I've gathered, are three mentions, two of which are found in ''First Strike'' and one in ''Ghosts of Onyx''. Every game, manual, guidebook, reference document, piece of supplementary material, as well as most novels ''never'' refer to the faction as "Covenant Empire", even in a context where it would seem proper for the title to be used ''if'' it were the actual full name of the faction. | To elaborate, it seems contradictory that we treat the name "Covenant Empire" as the primary name of the faction and commonly use it in our articles, despite the title's extremely limited - and context-sensitive - use in the fiction itself. As everyone most likely knows, the faction is simply called "Covenant" or "The Covenant" virtually everywhere in the ''Halo'' canon. The only exceptions, as far as I've gathered, are three mentions, two of which are found in ''First Strike'' and one in ''Ghosts of Onyx''. Every game, manual, guidebook, reference document, piece of supplementary material, as well as most novels ''never'' refer to the faction as "Covenant Empire", even in a context where it would seem proper for the title to be used ''if'' it were the actual full name of the faction. | ||
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*{{Support}} - As per above. | *{{Support}} - As per above. | ||
*{{Support}} - Aye.--[[User talk:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 14:05, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | *{{Support}} - Aye.--[[User talk:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 14:05, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} - Yup. Vegerot goes RAWR! | *{{Support}} - Yup. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 16:54, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} - I've always thought that "The Covenant" was too generic. The new name is more descriptive and used more by official sources.--[[User:Halofan1234|ハローファン]] ([[User talk:Halofan1234|H1234-NET]]) 23:10, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | *{{Support}} - I've always thought that "The Covenant" was too generic. The new name is more descriptive and used more by official sources.--[[User:Halofan1234|ハローファン]] ([[User talk:Halofan1234|H1234-NET]]) 23:10, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} - The Covenant frequently have multiple names for the same thing, and "Covenant" is the one they use the most, so I think that should be the main title with a note of "sometimes referred to as the '''Covenant Empire'''" in the intro like with [[Halo Array]]. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="#800080">Dragon<font color="#DE397E">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="#6600D8">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 23:30, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | *{{Support}} - The Covenant frequently have multiple names for the same thing, and "Covenant" is the one they use the most, so I think that should be the main title with a note of "sometimes referred to as the '''Covenant Empire'''" in the intro like with [[Halo Array]]. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="#800080">Dragon<font color="#DE397E">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="#6600D8">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 23:30, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
::Funnily, the introductory paragraph of the article has been that way for some time already, and the infobox says "The Covenant" - it's just the article title that hasn't been changed. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:50, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | ::Funnily, the introductory paragraph of the article has been that way for some time already, and the infobox says "The Covenant" - it's just the article title that hasn't been changed. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:50, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} - We really should use the primary in-universe title: "(The) Covenant". "Empire" is a descriptor rather than an actual name. Even if we do keep the current title, it should be rendered as "Covenant empire", not "Covenant Empire", as the former is used on ''Glasslands''<nowiki>'</nowiki> back-cover blurb. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 10:55, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | *{{Support}} - We really should use the primary in-universe title: "(The) Covenant". "Empire" is a descriptor rather than an actual name. Even if we do keep the current title, it should be rendered as "Covenant empire", not "Covenant Empire", as the former is used on ''Glasslands''<nowiki>'</nowiki> back-cover blurb. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 10:55, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} - This has been coming for several years now. - | *{{Support}} - This has been coming for several years now. - [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 02:48, 23 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} - I suggest using the format which the [[Fall of Reach]] uses (see [http://www.halopedian.com/Talk:Fall_of_Reach/Archive#Change_name_to_.22Fall_of_Reach.22_.28Passed.29 discussion here]), that is to rename to the most used title and include other derivatives in the introduction paragraph. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> | *{{Support}} - I suggest using the format which the [[Fall of Reach]] uses (see [http://www.halopedian.com/Talk:Fall_of_Reach/Archive#Change_name_to_.22Fall_of_Reach.22_.28Passed.29 discussion here]), that is to rename to the most used title and include other derivatives in the introduction paragraph. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> | ||
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===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
*{{Oppose}} - I can't make any real strong claim or crippling blow here, as this is a vague area in the canon, but I can't help but think that those few times it was mentioned, especially by the Covenant, with capitalization, is an indication that the name "Covenant Empire" is being used '''deliberately''', as a proper name. Perhaps this is more like the difference between "UNSC" and "United Nations Space Command", or "ODST" and "Helljumper", or "Human-Covenant War" versus "the Great War". One gets used because it sounds more impressive and is shorter and easier to recognize, and the other, more formal name is used in an official sense. The canon's given just a few examples of "Covenant Empire", but they seem like more than just accidents. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 19:25, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | *{{Oppose}} - I can't make any real strong claim or crippling blow here, as this is a vague area in the canon, but I can't help but think that those few times it was mentioned, especially by the Covenant, with capitalization, is an indication that the name "Covenant Empire" is being used '''deliberately''', as a proper name. Perhaps this is more like the difference between "UNSC" and "United Nations Space Command", or "ODST" and "Helljumper", or "Human-Covenant War" versus "the Great War". One gets used because it sounds more impressive and is shorter and easier to recognize, and the other, more formal name is used in an official sense. The canon's given just a few examples of "Covenant Empire", but they seem like more than just accidents. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 19:25, 21 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
::That is a possibility I considered, but if that were the franchise developers' intent, I'm almost certain a reference book such as ''The Essential Visual Guide'' or the ''Encyclopedia'' would have used "Covenant Empire" as a formal name in sections where the faction is specifically described. As I said earlier, while a lot of content was lifted into the ''Encyclopedia'' from here, the name "Covenant Empire" was not, something I would take as a strong hint against using it as the main title. It's probably not in the novels by accident, but to me the context it's used in is vague enough to call into question whether it's really more formal or simply an alternate name. That, and I'm not sure your other examples really compare to this, given the fact every one of those names is heard in canon more than just three times and in a less vague context; to me, this is more akin to calling the UNSC "United Earth Space Corps" based on the fact Hood passingly mentions that name on ''[[ | ::That is a possibility I considered, but if that were the franchise developers' intent, I'm almost certain a reference book such as ''The Essential Visual Guide'' or the ''Encyclopedia'' would have used "Covenant Empire" as a formal name in sections where the faction is specifically described. As I said earlier, while a lot of content was lifted into the ''Encyclopedia'' from here, the name "Covenant Empire" was not, something I would take as a strong hint against using it as the main title. It's probably not in the novels by accident, but to me the context it's used in is vague enough to call into question whether it's really more formal or simply an alternate name. That, and I'm not sure your other examples really compare to this, given the fact every one of those names is heard in canon more than just three times and in a less vague context; to me, this is more akin to calling the UNSC "United Earth Space Corps" based on the fact Hood passingly mentions that name on ''[[Cairo Station]]''. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:50, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
:::Actually, the rename was made by CommanderTony back in 2009, simply because [http://www.halopedian.com/index.php?title=Covenant_Empire&action=historysubmit&diff=98308&oldid=98307 the previous title ''"doesn't fly"'']. I think the ''Encyclopaedia'' did not change this because it was using the revision before the rename (that is when the article was known simply as the The Covenant). :P — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 04:11, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | :::Actually, the rename was made by CommanderTony back in 2009, simply because [http://www.halopedian.com/index.php?title=Covenant_Empire&action=historysubmit&diff=98308&oldid=98307 the previous title ''"doesn't fly"'']. I think the ''Encyclopaedia'' did not change this because it was using the revision before the rename (that is when the article was known simply as the The Covenant). :P — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 04:11, 22 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
::::Yeah, the reason is a little vague - I assumed it "doesn't fly" because of the disambiguation policy of that time, since it definitely does fly in terms of canon as detailed above. What also strikes me as odd is the fact there was apparently no discussion over it. By now, it seems we've come to the point where the title has taken a life of its own - because Halopedia and the fans have used it for some time now, people begin to see it as an unquestionable truth (for another example, see [[Talk:United Rebel Front#Possible merge to Insurrectionist|here]]). | ::::Yeah, the reason is a little vague - I assumed it "doesn't fly" because of the disambiguation policy of that time, since it definitely does fly in terms of canon as detailed above. What also strikes me as odd is the fact there was apparently no discussion over it. By now, it seems we've come to the point where the title has taken a life of its own - because Halopedia and the fans have used it for some time now, people begin to see it as an unquestionable truth (for another example, see [[Talk:United Rebel Front#Possible merge to Insurrectionist|here]]). | ||