Forum:ONI as Antagonists: Difference between revisions

:At the same time, Section III's NavSpecWar and NavSpecWep departments have done the bulk of ONIs immoral actions that we've seen so far - NavSpecWep with the SPARTAN-II and -III Programs, and NavSpecWar with their covert warfare against their ostensible "ally" the Sangheili. But, again, they were semi-justified for their ends, if not their means - savin humanity. The SPARTAN-II Program was meant to shut down an Insurrection that could see human-occupied space turn upon itself, colony against colony, an escalating war for territorial and ideological dominance that the UNSC wanted to stop... by imposing their ''own'' ideology. The SPARTAN-III Program was meant to buy humanity time. And it worked. Yes, it saw the deaths of hundreds of supersoldiers, but never needlessly. The operations they engaged in distracted or tied up the Covenant for months, months that the rest of humanity needed. And the operations against the Sangheili are also justified - after fighting nearly thirty years against them for survival, humanity understandably is not eager to see them build up their strength. Likewise, the Sangheili resent humanity's tenacity and creativity, and see us as a threat. Yes, they helped each other destroy the Covenant - but now that the Prophets have disappeared and the remainder of the Covenant have fallen apart, that doesn't mean anything anymore. They don't "owe" each other anything. Whoever wins the power struggles of Sanghelios, humanity will be able to take advantage of things. Parangosky is funding the rebels to destabilise the status quo - if the rebels win, the Sangheili are weakened by conflict and political turmoil, humanity have valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. If the Arbiter's faction wins, the Sangheili still resent the hell out of humanity, but are held back by the Arbiter and Hood's negotiations, and humanity gain valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. Whichever side wins, humanity comes out on top. It's a very interesting [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit Xanatos Gambit] - whatever happens, humanity comes out stronger.

::Very well said SpecOps, I agree with pretty much all of it. Even though I really, really dislike Section III and what they do, I think it makes for a much more interesting universe, so it's not just about the humans, who are good and perfect and weaker, fighting these big mean aliens from somewhere else, who want to kill all of us. The series has slowly been getting away from the simple good vs evil idea. CE was just that, good vs evil, nothing really in between. Halo 2 added some character and feeling of the other side of the war, following Thel, and learning how they were all wrong. Halo 3 more or less just kept this idea going, though it did have the Gravemind helping you for a bit, even if he was just playing everyone. ODST is where it really gets interesting, because that's where ONI comes in. That's what changes everything, and why I think all post-ODST Halo media will be more complex, and darker. If Halo: CE is the best example of the early Halo universe's basic Good vs Evil, then I think the best example of the newer, darker, and more complex Halo universe is best shown [[The Mona Lisa|here]]. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:40, 15 January 2012 (EST)

Yeah, I agree with what you're both saying.  One of the best ways of describing ONI is what Parangosky said "I do a lot of bad things.  I spend every day ruining peoples' lives and ending them, but I know that by killing these people less people will die because of that."  Paraphrasing, but pretty much sums them up: they do lotsa bad things, but overall help people out. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  14:09, 15 January 2012 (EST)!

:::*And then we become no better than the enemy. WHY NOT F*CKING ARM THE ELITES THAT ARE ON OUR SIDE?!?!

:::Because they're '''not on our side'''. The Arbiter's faction would be quite happy to see us all fall into a black hole. That doesn't make them our enemy, in the same way that their unwillingness to finish us off (yet) doesn't make them our friends. The Elites and the UNSC are the only two major powers left standing after the war - of course they're going to be rivals, economically, politically, and possibly militarily. Another analogy to the post-WWII Soviet Union vs the United States, and the start of an analogous cold war. In the (inevitable, according to ONI) war between the recovering UNSC and the Elites, the Arbiter's faction would be the stronger - so ONI undermines it so that the weaker faction is likely to win. And, can I just say - after defending the S-II Program, you're trying to take the moral highground?

::::What makes this debate so interesting is that SpecOps (more or less) shares Parangosky and ONI's perspective, and Vegerot (more or less) shares Hood and the UNSC's perspective. I'd bet both will be explored at least to some degree in the new trilogy, for good or ill :) [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:39, 22 February 2012 (EST)

:::::Now that you've put it that way... *mind-blown* — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 18:58, 22 February 2012 (EST)

:You mean like good-cop bad-cop? I...actually don't remember any ''confirmation'' that Hood ''doesn't'' know. The ODSTs, whose perspective we see, are ''led to think'' he's out of the loop. That's not the same thing as confirmation. Hell, maybe it's part of a larger strategy? I actually like this idea! And I fully agree that Halsey got shafted, though I think it adds character to both of them. Halsey proposed the abduction and use of child soldiers, and Parangosky approved - Halsey then, in an effort to provide the parents closure, salve her own conscience and cover her tracks, created doomed flash-clones. Selfish, yes, but also smart. And ''this'' is what Parangosky takes issue with? Or is it that Halsey didn't tell her? I think that's just a smokescreen for her real resentment - the notion that as smart and determined as she is, Halsey is just as qualified to run ONI as Parangosky is. These are both powerful, intelligent, determined and ruthless women who want to protect humanity at whatever cost has to be paid. But Parangosky has a successor, Osman, handpicked and groomed for the task. She understandably wouldn't want any risk to her transition plans. And I don't think Halsey would say no if she was offered the job.

Jesus these people are retarded, so one guy said "Well to be fair something like that almost happened at the end of world war ll.

*Russia and the US would have come to blows regardless of World War II. They were both superpowers with nuclear arsenals and vying for influence in Asia, the Middle-East and South America. Every ally one gained was another enemy for the other. The Bay of Pigs was mismanaged, and meant to set up a pro-US government. The All-knowing Sith'ari pointed out the Mujahideen, who were backed by the US against the Soviets. After that war ended, many of the people and weapons went into the Taliban. Is a Taliban-ruled Afghanistan better than a Soviet-occupied Afghanistan? I don't know. I'm not a political analyst. But it benefited the US, like a Sanghelios ruled by the Servants of Abiding Truth would have benefited ONI's aims.

*Yes, I'm, pulling out that one. I'm pointing out a double standard. You defend a '''justified but unethical''' project targeting children, but criticise an ONI Black Op to destabilise a probable future threat before it becomes a threat. It's not a criticism, it's an observation. And as grateful as humanity may be for the Elites saving Earth, don't forget that for the prior twenty seven years it was them ''leading the charge'' against humanity, slaughtering innocents and glassing planets. Humanity isn't going to be buddies with their alien saviours - they are going to resent the hell out of it.

:I'm sure there are Sangheili viewpoints as diverse as human ones, so I would bet that no matter what happens, at least SOME (Thel, Rtas, etc) of them will side with the humans. Hood may or may not know what ONI's doing, but even though he is the opposite side to ONI (so to speak), Hood likes the Sangheili a lot less than Thel likes humans. If sometime in the next three games we do end up fighting (most of) the Elites again, Thel will not be the one in charge. On top of that, I very much think he'll meet John again at some point. I mean, after all, they are the "dynamic-duo" ;) [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:33, 23 February 2012 (EST)