Talk:Halcyon-class light cruiser: Difference between revisions
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I have deleted the reference to the classes' length being a 7 reference. It belongs on the [[List of "Seven" references in Halo]] page. [[User:Isidis 128|Isidis 128]] 15:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC) | I have deleted the reference to the classes' length being a 7 reference. It belongs on the [[Seven|List of "Seven" references in Halo]] page. [[User:Isidis 128|Isidis 128]] 15:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC) | ||
== 1/3 tonnage == | == 1/3 tonnage == | ||
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It would actually have quite a bit to do with size. Since we know that ''Halcyon''-class cruisers are quite dense for their size due to their large amounts of structural bracing, it is likely that the ship would have to be quite a bit smaller than the current ''Marathon''-class cruisers by a factor greater than 1/3. If they were of the same overall density, then there would be no point in pointing out the superior durability of the ''Halcyon''-class as it would be the same as the ''Marathon''-class, which would make the ''Halcyon'' even more underpowered than before. It is likely that the authors meant volume instead of tonnage, which would be slightly more in keeping with the designated size of the ''Marathon''-class compared to the ''Halcyon''-class. However, since both are irregularly shaped objects it is difficult to determine their exact volume. The ''Halcyon''-class is listed as being 1.17km long, and the ''Marathon'' is 1.5km long. [[User:The one092001|The one092001]] 06:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC) | It would actually have quite a bit to do with size. Since we know that ''Halcyon''-class cruisers are quite dense for their size due to their large amounts of structural bracing, it is likely that the ship would have to be quite a bit smaller than the current ''Marathon''-class cruisers by a factor greater than 1/3. If they were of the same overall density, then there would be no point in pointing out the superior durability of the ''Halcyon''-class as it would be the same as the ''Marathon''-class, which would make the ''Halcyon'' even more underpowered than before. It is likely that the authors meant volume instead of tonnage, which would be slightly more in keeping with the designated size of the ''Marathon''-class compared to the ''Halcyon''-class. However, since both are irregularly shaped objects it is difficult to determine their exact volume. The ''Halcyon''-class is listed as being 1.17km long, and the ''Marathon'' is 1.5km long. [[User:The one092001|The one092001]] 06:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC) | ||
In modern naval measurements, tonnage refers to the internal volume of a ship. If we assume these same measurements apply to the ships in the Halo universe, the Marathon cruiser should be appx. 1.69km long, (1.17km x (3^(1/2)) while assuming the Halcyon cruiser is indeed 1.17km. Briefly, we see a Marathon cruiser fly by a Covenant Assault carrier in Halo 2 during the ending cutscene for the first level. However, earlier in the game, when the disgraced Ship Master (soon to be Arbiter) describes how a single ship, called 'Pillar of Autumn' fled from Reach, and the same Marathon model is used for the Pillar of Autumn in this cutscene. The most logical assumption to be made in regards to the in game models seen in Halo 2 is that they were never intended to be analyzed under such scrutiny. Because the Pillar of Autumn has such a distinct length, (''1.17''km), and other notable external features that support this size, (The exterior windows and lifeboat bays), it is logical to assume that this is indeed the actual scale of the Halcyon class cruiser. When measuring ships under this standard, we must also consider the size of the Covenant CCS, because we measured the Halcyon class cruiser from an external skybox model, it is only fair to measure other ships under these conditions. In the third level of Halo CE, the Truth and Reconciliation skybox model is roughly 700m in length. The novelizations provide the most tangible sources of numeric measurements, and on several instances, light Covenant cruisers have been described at such sizes as 300m. Ringleader_O, 9:03, 18 May 2010. | |||
The page for the marathon cruiser says that it's 1192 meters long, but I tend to agree with the 1.5 kilometer number. On two separate occasions in halo canon, the halcyon-class cruiser is said to be significantly smaller than the marathon-class cruiser, and a 20 meter difference doesn't seem like enough. Also, if you alook at them side-by-side, the halcyon-class seems quite a bit bulkier. If the marathon was 1500 meters, it would make more sense. | |||
:The smallness quote was referring to tonnage, not length.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:41, 15 May 2011 (EDT) | |||
== Length == | == Length == | ||
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But where do we get the 1170 meters from anyway? | But where do we get the 1170 meters from anyway? | ||
:In-game files show its length in units convertable into feet. The John model is a 7, making him (in-armour) seven feet tall; this example was used by Stephen Loftus to calculate the Autumn's length. The inside and outside ship designs were done independently.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:41, 15 May 2011 (EDT) | |||
== Armamant == | |||
In this article it is said it has 6 archer missle pods yet in fall of reach it is mentioned on page 272 line 1 that it had thirty across and ten down 'm assuming on both sides. So why does it say 6 here where did that number come from? | |||
The books, and the conflict is in the games though. In the books it says about a kilometer long, but in the games Master Chief has to drive down a service corridor that runs the length of the ship, which is way longer. It is already on the list of inconsistancies in Halo page so there isn't much reason to keep up the discussion. --[[User:Omrifere|Captain Jacob Rathens]] 20:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC) | The books, and the conflict is in the games though. In the books it says about a kilometer long, but in the games Master Chief has to drive down a service corridor that runs the length of the ship, which is way longer. It is already on the list of inconsistancies in Halo page so there isn't much reason to keep up the discussion. --[[User:Omrifere|Captain Jacob Rathens]] 20:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
You guys misread the book about the Halcyon's weapons. It said on p.238 that the halcyons were refited with a single MAC gun and 6 Archer missile pods during the war. The PoA had hers in 2550 and the others might have had theirs before or after or during 2550. That means the Halcyon cruisers were not meant for ship to ship engagements before the war started making them the weakest ships in the UNSC Navy before the refits. | |||
I know it's late, but with Halo Reach out I've been going over the novels once again, and the exact wording on page 238 is "Weapon refits have upgraded their offensive capabilities with a single Magnetic Accelerator Cannon and six Archer missile pods." I think this can, and most likely should be interpreted that the ''unspecified'' original armament was supplemented with a MAC gun (which it might have lacked altogether, or was upgraded to two, like in the Marathon-class) and a ''further'' six Archer pods, not a total of six. --[[User talk:Fin-|Fin-]] 09:43, September 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
==Thrusters== | ==Thrusters== | ||
on page 41 of the flood keyes fires bow thrusters. i couldnt seem to fit it in the article.-- | on page 41 of the flood keyes fires bow thrusters. i couldnt seem to fit it in the article.--[[User:Spartan 1138|<font color=black>'''MCPO Spartan'''</font>]] [[User talk:Spartan 1138|<font color=black>'''1138'''</font>]] 15:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
== Royal Sovereign== | == Royal Sovereign== | ||
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As far as I am aware, the PoA is a refit of a refit. They took one of the cargo runners, made it combat worthy, then upgraded it again into what the Pillor of Autumn was known for. The article also incorrectly states the armament of the Halcyon class; it mixes up what was added to the PoA and what was there already. [[User:Diaboy|Diaboy]] 17:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC) | As far as I am aware, the PoA is a refit of a refit. They took one of the cargo runners, made it combat worthy, then upgraded it again into what the Pillor of Autumn was known for. The article also incorrectly states the armament of the Halcyon class; it mixes up what was added to the PoA and what was there already. [[User:Diaboy|Diaboy]] 17:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
The entire article is alluding to the idea that more than one Halcyon Cruiser was refitted like the PoA; we do not know this, so I'm removing any suggestions of that. [[User:Diaboy|Diaboy]] 14:57, 8 July 2008 (UTC) | |||
Eleven vessels were built with the special internal honeycomb structure, according to the '''Bungie Halo Bible''' excerpt from the Sybex Official Strategy Guide for Halo PC. On page 60, it states: "The ''Pillar of Autumn'' and 10 other vessels were the only ships–out of 50-to be built with this type of superstructure." [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 21:26, 3 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
==transport?== | ==transport?== | ||
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-With the stated length and size of the ''Halcyon''-class, it is impossible for it to carry 200,000 marines. There is an error there, most likely it could accomodate 2,000 considering how many survived the crash and the size of the ship. 200 is too few, and 20,000 is far too many. 200,000 would equal an entire army, and would be more troops than the UNSC would likely station on any world aside from Reach and Earth. Standard ''Halcyons'' probably did not carry as many as the ''Pillar of Autumn'' did because the ''Autumn'' had a special mission that required marines for a boarding party capable of capturing a Covenant ship intact and fighting their way into Covenant space. Normal ''Halcyons'' probably only had a few hundred marines at most for limited planetary operations and ship security.[[User:The one092001|The one092001]] 22:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC) | -With the stated length and size of the ''Halcyon''-class, it is impossible for it to carry 200,000 marines. There is an error there, most likely it could accomodate 2,000 considering how many survived the crash and the size of the ship. 200 is too few, and 20,000 is far too many. 200,000 would equal an entire army, and would be more troops than the UNSC would likely station on any world aside from Reach and Earth. Standard ''Halcyons'' probably did not carry as many as the ''Pillar of Autumn'' did because the ''Autumn'' had a special mission that required marines for a boarding party capable of capturing a Covenant ship intact and fighting their way into Covenant space. Normal ''Halcyons'' probably only had a few hundred marines at most for limited planetary operations and ship security.[[User:The one092001|The one092001]] 22:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
== Dawn Under Heaven == | |||
please state where on Earth it says that Dawn Under Heaven crashed. | |||
There is no evidence to support that the UNSC ''Dawn Under Heaven'' ever crashed or has even been destroyed. Aside from the name, and that the story of it is 'more interesting' than that of the ''Pillar of Autumn'', we know nothing. Making it hugely interesting. [[User talk:Diaboy|Diaboy]] 13:38, August 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Source Error == | |||
The 1st reference should be from Halo: The Flood pg.4, not The Fall of Reach Pg. 4. | |||
== Size error == | |||
I believe the ship must be longer then originally stated, if you remember the first game you travel only part of its length during the final mission in a warthog, the total distance of the trek is 2.2KM not this 1.17Km that was originally stated, never once in any of the books was the ships dimension stated, I think some one just theroized its legnth and used 117 to make it practical. however I do believe many of the ship lenghts have been altered and most of them are shorter then they should be. | |||
:Actually, someone created a scale comparison between the character model of the Chief, and the in-game structure used in cutscenes. The internal structure is actually a mistake made by Bungie, since it would never fit within. --'''CoH|<font color=purple>Councillor</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=blue>Specops306</font>]]''' - '''''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a</font>]] UserWiki:Specops306|<font color=purple>'Morhek</font>]]''''' 06:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
== Rotating section == | |||
Im reading the first book, and it seems that all UNSC ships have a rotating section. | |||
but on the images and text here that is forgoten. | |||
The bulk of the inside is taking up by the MAC, should it not have a rotating section whit gravety some where undet the outer armor? | |||
By 2552 most UNSC ships had artificial gravity plating without the need for rotating sections. [[User talk:Spartan 112|112]] 21:31, January 13, 2010 (UTC) | |||
== UNSC Halcyon == | |||
If we are sticking to the idea that every class of unsc warship shares the name of the first in its line, should'nt we add the UNSC Halcyon to the list of Halcyon class cruisers, even if its never mentioned in the Haloverse it should still have existed.[[User talk:DARKSTORM99|DARKSTORM99]] 05:07, June 3, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:We're not sticking to that idea since we have no proof of it whatsoever. We can't just randomly make up ships.--[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 05:51, June 3, 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Smallest, not shortest == | |||
I was checking up on the older novels to make sure we aren't missing something (I've found quite a few things we missed by doing this). In ''Halo: The Fall of Reach'' on page 238 we read the following: | |||
:''"The Pillar of Autumn is forty-three years old," Cortana said. "Halcyon-class ships were the smallest vessel ever to receive the cruiser designation. It is approximately one-third the tonnage of the Marathon-class cruiser currently in service."'' | |||
Note that in the extract, "smallest" is used alongside a reference to tonnage. It is my belief that Cortana's usage of the word "smallest" was not in reference to the ship's length, but actually referring to a space-borne equivalent of Gross Register Tonnage.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 21:55, 14 May 2011 (EDT) | |||
==Request for new (transparent) Image== | |||
Does anyone have a really good transparent cutout image of the Halcyon-class cruiser from Halo: Reach? I have one from Halo: Combat Evolved, it's the same one CommanderTony submitted to Halo Fanon on the Halcyon-class cruiser article page, but I'm not sure everyone will accept that. Can anyone help out here? [[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 00:06, 3 July 2011 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
:'''UPDATE''': I already posted the image, and everyone seems to be fine with it--It does present a great profile view of the cruiser. And to add to previous statement, maybe a better transparent cutout image could be found in the newer ''Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary'' game, as it seems like the ''Pillar of Autumn'' star cruiser would be much better than a shot from the Aszod ship-breaking yards in ''Halo: Reach''. I've been looking around and waiting, not much luck yet, but it may take awhile before anything good comes up. [[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 14:09, 15 September 2011 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
==PoA Screenshot Render in ''Halo Anniversary''== | |||
Kronos101 told me on my board that it is nearly impossible to take a good screenshot, either an angled or a profile shot, due to the blurring of the panning camera, so he tried for a higher-resolution image from the ''Halo: Reach'' credits, but that didn't work either. I really think some new transparent cutout render could be done and used for both the ''Halcyon''-class Light Cruiser and the ''[[Pillar of Autumn]]'' articles. Since it seems to me that getting an excellent screenshot with which to manipulate in Photoshop is next to impossible, I was wondering if it was possible for anyone with any advanced graphic design skills could actually make a render without the need of any screenshots (maybe some for reference), and also be allowed to upload it and post it in the PoA and the ''Halcyon''-class Light Cruiser articles without it being labeled as "fan art". I would certainly do it myself, except I need to take more graphic design classes. Can this be done, and can it be allowed? --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 18:55, 6 December 2011 (EST)Xamikaze330 | |||
::'''UPDATE''': Got plenty of new images both from ''Halo: Combat Evolved'' and ''Halo: Reach''. So no need to worry anymore. --'''''[[User:Xamikaze330|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Halo;">Xamikaze330</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Xamikaze330|<font color="Blue">Transmission</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|<font color="Green">Commencing</font>]]''''']</small> 10:01, 9 July 2013 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
== 2 mac guns?? == | |||
i know that the ship is said to have only 1 mac, but if you look at the cutaway image in the image section. you can clearly see that the mac has 2 gun pertruding from it's bow. [[User:maccabeuse|maccabeuse]] 02:46, 31 Januray 2012 | |||
:That means nothing. The image also shows that the PoA is all corridors. The second hole in the cutaway image probably holds MAC capacitors or ammunition or something. In any case, it's actually an unofficial image that we choose to adopt as canon.--[[User talk:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 14:55, 31 January 2012 (EST) | |||
::I may have some further information to provide, that would suggest that what we have here is canon. I can believe what you are talking about are the four barrels of what I believe are probably a heavy version of the Point-Defense Gun turret, one that features four barrels rather than two. If you looked closely enough at the ''Pillar of Autumn'' from ''Halo: Reach'', you'll notice that it most certainly does have only one MAC gun, but is also bristling with Point-Defense Gun turrets. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see two MAC guns. I see only one barrel, and I see what looks like some kind of reloading system similar to what I've seen in some real-world gun schematics for automatic and semiautomatic weapons. --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 15:12, 31 January 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330 | |||
I think that I might've confused you guys. I didnt specify which picture (my bad). I was talking about this this one here. | |||
You can clearly see there are two barrels. The top one (which I originally thought was the MAC, and there is evidence to support this, any number of pictures) and a lower one which is actually in the process of firing a 3 round burst --[[User:maccabeuse|Maccabeuse]] 05:45, 31 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:Fixed link. I did know what you were talking about, after I looked around a bit. You'll notice the "second barrel" is labeled "linear accelerator", meaning it is the electromagnetically-charged firing mechanism, and furthermore, the linear accelerator does ''not'' have an external firing barrel. The only real firing barrel I see is the one I've always seen: the one labeled in the diagram as the "Magnetic Accelerator Cannon (MAC)". Though I can see how that might be a little confusing. But hopefully this explanation will clear things up. --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 18:04, 31 January 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330 | |||
Okay. i took a look at original POA from halo:ce. it makes more sense. it was the version from halo reach and anniversary that threw me off. get it now thanks. [[User:maccabeuse|Maccaeuse]] 11:12, January 31 2012 (EST) | |||
I actually made that image you're referencing. It's Cairo's MAC cannon laid sideways at the same scale over the ''Autumn''. Cairo's MAC also has those two protrusions, yet only one is the cannon's muzzle, which I've labeled and have 3 MAC rounds emerging from. Sorry if this caused any confusion. It was meant for illustration purposes only since in info on the MAC stations, it was mentioned their cannons were the size of UNSC cruisers. It also is mentioned in the novel that the ''Autumn'''s MAC has parts on the underside which is why I used the bottom detail for the MAC and not the one midway up.[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 21:20, 3 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
== Possible Seven reference in the word "''Halcyon'''' == | |||
I'm not sure, but I think I may have stumbled across a possible seven reference in the word "''Halcyon''", the word being comprised of exactly seven letters. Was this intentional, or entirely a coincidence? It seems less of a coincidence to me, but as I said, I'm not sure. --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 11:34, 11 June 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
:Coincidence.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 12:07, 11 June 2012 (EDT) | |||
::Fine by me. It was all just a thought. No proof anyway that it was intentional. --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 12:18, 11 June 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
==Changes Section== | |||
Shouldn't there be a Changes section on how it was designed and redesigned in the ''Halo: Combat Evolved'' and ''Halo: Reach''? Something like a compare and contrast type of thing from game to game. I feel it is important that it be added so people can see more of a difference. --'''''[[User:Xamikaze330|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Halo;">Xamikaze330</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Xamikaze330|<font color="Blue">Transmission</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|<font color="Green">Commencing</font>]]''''']</small> 10:00, 9 July 2013 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
:[[Talk:UNSC Pillar of Autumn#Changes Section|Refer to Subtank's comment here…]] --'''''[[User:Xamikaze330|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Halo;">Xamikaze330</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Xamikaze330|<font color="Blue">Transmission</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|<font color="Green">Commencing</font>]]''''']</small> 11:49, 9 July 2013 (EDT)Xamikaze330 | |||
==Armament conjecture== | |||
Has it ever been confirmed that the figures listed in ''The Fall of Reach'' are for their as-built condition? Because in the version I've got, it simply states that the ''Autumn'' received the MAC and six Archer pods in its 2550 refit, with no implication that they were ever fitted previously. Similarly, the new ''Encyclopedia'' book doesn't say if the new armament was ever added during a refit or not. [[Special:Contributions/114.77.224.192|114.77.224.192]] 02:27, June 21, 2023 (EDT) | |||