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Talk:Glassing: Difference between revisions
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== "Unidentified Brute" == | == "Unidentified Brute" == | ||
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Banshees cannot really glass stuff... USE COMMON SENSE. Banshees plasma bolts melt sand glass yes but in large scale that is simply impossible... | Banshees cannot really glass stuff... USE COMMON SENSE. Banshees plasma bolts melt sand glass yes but in large scale that is simply impossible... | ||
:Put an emphasis on the term "Large Scale". Banshee's don't operate in two's or three's, except in the game. In the novels, you can have hundreds flying at you. Imagine the destruction their weapons could wreak on a ground target. -- ''' | :Put an emphasis on the term "Large Scale". Banshee's don't operate in two's or three's, except in the game. In the novels, you can have hundreds flying at you. Imagine the destruction their weapons could wreak on a ground target. -- '''CoH|<font color=purple>Councillor</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=blue>Specops306</font>]]''' - '''''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Kora</font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Specops306|<font color=purple>'Morhek</font>]]''''' 22:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | ||
==Halo wars== | ==Halo wars== | ||
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And it is not outdated. You say you have seen videos, have you ever played the games? | And it is not outdated. You say you have seen videos, have you ever played the games? | ||
Glassed is the offical term in the Halo Universe, Bungie uses it the novels use it, it is the accepted canonical term. Just because you feel that it is outdated does not give you the right to change canon, what you are putting up there is fanon, that is not allowed on Halopedia. So stop replacing "glassed" with "razed". Your activity can and will be reported. [http:// | Glassed is the offical term in the Halo Universe, Bungie uses it the novels use it, it is the accepted canonical term. Just because you feel that it is outdated does not give you the right to change canon, what you are putting up there is fanon, that is not allowed on Halopedia. So stop replacing "glassed" with "razed". Your activity can and will be reported. [http://halopedian.com/Halopedia:Covenant_of_Halopedia/Member_List#Honor_Guard_Elites <span style="color: #000080; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt;">'''Honor Guard'''</span>] [[User:Spartansniper450|<font color=#00416A>Spartansniper</font>]]'''[[User talk:Spartansniper450|<font color="#000000">'''4'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<font color="#000000">'''50'''</font>]] 16:17, Nov 20, 2008 (UTC) | ||
:... I hate reports... [[User Talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">K</font>]][[User:Subtank|<font color="#EC5800">A</font>]][[ | :... I hate reports... [[User Talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">K</font>]][[User:Subtank|<font color="#EC5800">A</font>]][[halofanon:Category:Subtank|<font color="#E34234">C</font>]]-File:Knatbus.jpg|24px]] 16:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | ||
To HALO Legend, the official term given by Bungie is Glassed. Also, please note that this is a game, thus there are several contradicting facts and reality. Although I agree that Razed would suit with this article, note that the header itself is titled '''"Glassing"'''. So, we would have to use Glassed for consistency. [[User Talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">K</font>]][[User:Subtank|<font color="#EC5800">A</font>]][[ | To HALO Legend, the official term given by Bungie is Glassed. Also, please note that this is a game, thus there are several contradicting facts and reality. Although I agree that Razed would suit with this article, note that the header itself is titled '''"Glassing"'''. So, we would have to use Glassed for consistency. [[User Talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">K</font>]][[User:Subtank|<font color="#EC5800">A</font>]][[halofanon:Category:Subtank|<font color="#E34234">C</font>]]-File:Knatbus.jpg|24px]] 16:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | ||
== Aftermath? == | == Aftermath? == | ||
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In ODST the Covenant vessels are said to be 'charging their excavational beams' before they perform the low level glassing as seen in Halo 3. [[User talk:Molotovsniper|Molotovsniper]] 21:38, September 25, 2009 (UTC) | In ODST the Covenant vessels are said to be 'charging their excavational beams' before they perform the low level glassing as seen in Halo 3. [[User talk:Molotovsniper|Molotovsniper]] 21:38, September 25, 2009 (UTC) | ||
:: | |||
• O o | |||
/¯/___________________________ _\ | |||
| IMMA CHARGING MAH LAZER!!! | |||
\_\¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯/ | |||
--[[User talk:Bronze98|Bronze98]] 01:44, August 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Restoration? == | == Restoration? == | ||
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::Not necessarily. The sarge even states in the end as the Covenant leave "''Damned planet isn't even worth glassing''". Also, it's quite plausible they wouldn't glass Ariel, as it only had an extremely small colony with an archaeological dig. While it's possible they later glassed the planet, it isn't mentioned in any point in the comic. For all we know, Ariel might've been an exception. I'm not saying it was, but we have no proof whatsoever. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 09:23, March 19, 2010 (UTC) | ::Not necessarily. The sarge even states in the end as the Covenant leave "''Damned planet isn't even worth glassing''". Also, it's quite plausible they wouldn't glass Ariel, as it only had an extremely small colony with an archaeological dig. While it's possible they later glassed the planet, it isn't mentioned in any point in the comic. For all we know, Ariel might've been an exception. I'm not saying it was, but we have no proof whatsoever. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 09:23, March 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
== Image | == Image policy == | ||
Durandal earlier told me earlier on this talk page that the Manual of Style says that an article should have just one featured image and the rest go in a gallery unless the article is escessively long. However, I've looked through the MOS, as well as through the image sections, and I don't see this anywhere. Therefore, I would like to ask if I can add a few images within the article, as some of the more detailed sections are a little hard on the eyes, and the gallery is steadily growing larger. Sound okay?[[User:Tuckerscreator|'''Tuckerscreator''']] 04:06, May 2, 2010 (UTC) | Durandal earlier told me earlier on this talk page that the Manual of Style says that an article should have just one featured image and the rest go in a gallery unless the article is escessively long. However, I've looked through the MOS, as well as through the image sections, and I don't see this anywhere. Therefore, I would like to ask if I can add a few images within the article, as some of the more detailed sections are a little hard on the eyes, and the gallery is steadily growing larger. Sound okay?[[User:Tuckerscreator|'''Tuckerscreator''']] 04:06, May 2, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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Do not know. I hope you good answers. | Do not know. I hope you good answers. | ||
--[[User talk:H A L O Legend|H A L O Legend]] 17:19, May 19, 2010 (UTC) | --[[User talk:H A L O Legend|H A L O Legend]] 17:19, May 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
== Trivia Section, the Data Pads and the Concept of Glassing == | |||
In the trivia section, listed as the second bullet point, is the information regarding the conclusions of the AI Assembly found in the Data Pads. The last sentence says: | |||
"''However, the Covenant fleet was later discovered to be many times larger than imagined.''" | |||
Where in the Data Pads is that mentioned? I obviously know that the Covenant had a larger ship count than Humanity, but in order to Glass a planet in entirety, the Covenant would need a ridiculous amount of ships. The article describes Glassing as if it were a process which reduced all of the surface to molten slag, had the potential to boil away the atmosphere and oceans and leave it a dead husk forever. That was true. That could be true. However, the Covenant have neither the ship count nor the ability to discharge those levels of energy that could achieve that result given the scope of the Human-Covenant war. | |||
If it takes 2000 ships 30 years to glass an Earth sized planet, then in order to do it in a week, you would need 3'120'000 vessels, all over the one colony and all discharging thier weapons continuously for the target time period. Bump that number down to 10'000 ships, it takes 6 years. How many ships do the Covenant have? That is the question. It sure as hell ain't over 3 million. I would guess it as struggling to break the 5000 mark; given how many vessels they lost in the war, the implications of the NOVA event at Joyous Exultation, the state of the post Halo 3 universe described in Evolutions and then the general behaviour of the Covenant with respect to specific "endgame" devices and plans such as the Forerunner Fleet in Halo Wars, The Knowing, Halo and Project Exodus. | |||
What I am trying to say is that Glassing would be as destructive as that, given that the Covenant had that many ships at its disposal, but the fact is that they do not, therefore Glassing in that context is not. | |||
The second point is the power of their weapons. The ship to time ratio is given ultimately by the strength of their weaponry. It is because their weaponry is not powerful enough that they are not actually able to Glass a planet completely in effective time spans. Halsey comments on it in her Journal, as do the AI in the Data Pads, as does common sense. (Any power capable of discharging the amount of energy equal to several million kilograms of antimatter in the space of a few days or weeks would be unbeatable to the UNSC.) The fact that there are Human-Covenant space battles, the fact that they are not instant wins for the Covenant and even in some cases wins for the UNSC suggests that they have not that level of destructive capability at their disposal. The weaponry used to Glass is also used in ship-to-ship engagements (Energy Projector). It is in space battles that this was determined by the AI. | |||
It appears now to be more a way to simply destroy cities and military installations quickly, to eliminate all large scale resistance. Evolutions even described that as well, and the fact that total planetary destruction was rare. Now we know that even in those occasional circumstances, it is not total. -[[User talk:Anton1792|Anton1792]] 23:15, 24 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
:In her journal, Halsey mentions the glassing of Arcadia. There's no quibbling about with "they just hit the cities" - they burned the whole thing. So either the Committee vastly underestimate the Covenant's firepower, or their numbers. Remember, this is an enormous empire that could span thousands of star systems. How many ships could they produce, and how many would they need for internal/external security? -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 01:47, 25 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
''"The careful immolation of every vital part of the planet."'' | |||
It seems to implicate that not every square inch is hit - only areas vital to functioning of a colony (Grain Belts, fresh water bodies, forests etc.) Remembering as well, that the second colonisation of Arcadia was by rural farmers. It served as a bread basket after the initial invasion. To destroy it as a population centre - destroy cities. To destroy it as a farming world, you may need to destroy such regions as grain belts. (vital parts). She then seems fairly sceptical of the destruction itself in the remainder of the passage. More to the point, it seems to indicate what I am saying. They only target the vital parts, because they cannot destroy every ''single'' part. | |||
As for the total ship count of the Covenant Empire, there is no solid number, but you can get a rough ''idea''. First get a base number. This is the amount that was destroyed in the War: | |||
<pre> | |||
- Chi Ceti: 1 | |||
- Second Battle of Harvest: 1 | |||
- Alpha Aurigae: 12 | |||
- Harvest Campaigns: At least 1. These campaigns lasted for 5 years. | |||
- XI Bootis A: 8 | |||
- Groombridge-1830: 3 | |||
- First Battle of Arcadia: 1 (perhaps 2) | |||
- The Rubble: 1 | |||
- 18 Scorpii: 1 | |||
- Psi Serpentis: 300 | |||
- Algolis: 1 | |||
- The Package: 1 | |||
- TORPEDO: 7 | |||
- Sigma Octanus IV: 3 | |||
- Deliver Hope Trailer: 1 | |||
- UPPERCUT: 2 | |||
- Reach: 210 (Or 468 with new TFoR edition) | |||
- Line Installation 1-4: ~12 | |||
- Alpha Halo: ???. At the end of CE, Cortana says "An entire armada obliterated". | |||
- Aftermath of Alpha Halo: 7 | |||
- Second "Battle" of Reach: 20 | |||
- Eridanus Secundus: 1 | |||
- FIRST STRIKE: 485, Unyielding Heirophant | |||
- Earth: At least 15. (Unknown exactly how many ships Truth lost here.) | |||
- High Charity: ???. Battles between Brute and Elite probably yielded a moderate-high number. | |||
- Onyx: 54 | |||
- Joyous Exultation: "Hundreds". Two massive combined fleets numbering in the hundreds, 60% wiped out. | |||
- The Ark: 30 | |||
</pre> | |||
Total that we know: ~1180 (or ~1438 with TFoR re-release) | |||
- The Great Schism (Post Halo 3): ???. After the fall of the Covenant, this rapidly descended into scattered skirmishes, the end result of which forced the Sangheili to pull back to defend the Homeworld. They are running out of ships that cannot be easily replaced. So I am left with a sense that after the War, Covenant ships are not bountiful in number. | |||
Factor in the implied number at High Charity, Joyous Exultation, The full Battle of Earth, the undocumented Harvest Campaigns and all the other battles from the war that have unknown Covenant ship casualties, it is safe to assume that the Covenants loses were probably in the 1500 - 2000 range. Just imagine how many ships would be required to "smash" Earths defence net given the result at Reach, and then look at how many ships Truth had left that actually made it to the Ark (30). | |||
Joyous Exultation is an important point to note as well. If the NOVA at Joyous Exultation wiped out 60% of a fleet of "hundreds" which represented most, if not all, of the Sangheili fighting forces (Halo Encyclopaedia, Pg 201), then the remaining 40% will also only be in the "hundreds". It was described as essentially levelling the playing field between Loyalist and Sangheili forces, so the Loyalist fleet is also likely in the "hundreds", the same as the Sangheili after the NOVA. So if you take Loyalist and Sangheili (Pre-NOVA), then you have a total Covenant ship count that is 140% of the fleet of "hundreds" surrounding Joyous Exultation. "Hundreds" is less than "thousands", otherwise it would be described as such, would it not? Describing "thousands " in terms of "hundreds" (e.g. thirty hundred for 3000) is redundant. Add the loses to this concept, and it is not hard to believe the Covenant fleet not being as large as once thought. | |||
As for the power of their weapons. They state that it takes 15 seconds to glass one acre. How can they know this? They say they learned this by observing the Covenants weaponry in space. The weapon that is used primarily to glass has also been seen being used in space battles, the Energy Projector. If this weapon was that powerful there would seriously be no competition. The difference in wattage between a week and 30 years for the amount of energy required to glass a planet in anything near totality is so large that it is impossible to underestimate by that amount. At the very least, it represents a plot hole as to how Humanity is able to last more than a few seconds against the Covenant in space. Or possibly that the Covenant is so imitative with respect to their own weapon systems (borderline stupid) that they have such polarized weaponry. -[[User talk:Anton1792|Anton1792]] 14:36, 25 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
:[http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=51760784 What Anton1792 posted]. Quite an interesting read. What Anton1792 has said so far is along the lines of true canon. However, one must question; do all ships share this trait (using the glassing ability at 15 seconds per acre)? I would assume the smaller ones (i.e. CCS-class) would, but not the larger, heavily equipped ships (i.e. Assault Carrier). It would be more realistic/make more sense if it were so. If not, then it would be highly detrimental to the Covenant fleet, for having such generalised onboard weaponry. Thus, I would assume the observations made by the AIs, as described in the Data Pads of Halo: Reach, were only based on the CCS-class (which is the common warship seen throughout the HCW) and not other ships. | |||
:The argument that Anton1792 raised is similar to the Slipstream Speed issue we've experienced in the past (that is, in halo.wikia.com); we were wrong to generalise that all Covenant ships have the ability to travel in slipsteam at 912 ly/day (or whatever that number is) and that all UNSC ships are only capable at travelling 2.1 ly/day. In the end, we came to the conclusion that it is only unique to one ship and generalisation shouldn't be practised unless officially and specifically stated. :) - <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 19:27, 26 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
[[File:Reach Glassed.jpg|thumb|Notice how most of the planet's surface seems to be intact.]] | |||
::That post is certainly an interesting read. It seems that Bungie intentionally put this in the data pads to set the matter straight. The statements by the AIs aren't treated as speculation or uncertain assumptions, but factual information backed up by hard evidence. From a technical standpoint, glassing has always been problematic. The energy required to glass a planet has always been inconsistent with the Covenant ships' firepower in space engagements. I think this quote sums it up: | |||
::''The energy required to quickly dispatch a planet is...well, if they continuously had that magnitude of power at their disposal, there would be no Human-Covenant ship-to-ship battles.'' | |||
::''They would win. Instantly. Without exception.'' | |||
::For me, the data pad seems like a way to correct that. It's obviously a retcon, but they're basically saying that glassing on a global scale is impossible to the Covenant. There's obviously the issue of larger ships having more powerful weaponry, but I doubt the differences are drastic enough to make any difference when glassing an entire planet. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:59, 27 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
:::Indeed, the concept of glassing seems to have been getting some retcon treatment recently. However, it is justified; as said above, for the Covenant to glass a planet from pole-to-pole, vaporizing the entire surface area, ''every time'' they take a planet is indeed quite unrealistic, and the amount of energy required would utterly enormous. One thing that has been overlooked in the above discussion however, regarding space combat and glassing being one and the same; they are not. The Covenant glass a planet after a battle, as a merciless religious victory ceremony more than anything else, and as said it happens ''after'' a battle. It has been described that when glassing a planet, the Covenant ships begin to build up and charge enormous amounts of plasma on their underside launchers, and build up the bolt until their shields cannot hold it anymore, then fire it down on the planet; causing a blast of destruction much larger and more powerful than anything they would use in ship-to-ship combat. Because in ship-to-ship combat, it is a frantic battle, the Covenant don't use nearly as much energy as they do when glassing, and human ships don't need that much plasma to be vaporized anyway. | |||
:::This evidence can be collected from ''Halo: Ghosts of Onyx'', during the battle around High Charity. In this scene, the Reverence-class cruiser attempted to destroy a Brute frigate with a single shot from its energy projector, and in order to do so, it had to divert power from every single non-vital component of the ship to discharge enough plasma; and the wait of charging the plasma almost got the ship destroyed. From this, it can be seen that in regular ship-to-ship combat against humans, the Covenant do not use a fraction of the energy their plasma weapons are capable of, for the sole reason that they do not need to. However, when in combat against other Covenant ships, something that was only observed towards the very end of the war, much more energy is required to puncture both shields and their superior hulls. My point is; is that the Assembly did indeed underestimate Covenant glassing capabilities, as they assumed the weaponry used against humans in ship-to-ship combat was the most that they could muster. - [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 06:03, 27 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
::::The only thing I can say, is that it seems bizarre that the Covenant would hold up so high a threat and feat in the destruction of humanity if their methods were something they truly could not follow up on. SOMEBODY in the Covenant fleet has to have noticed, it's right in their face, and yet they always treat it as though the job were a full glassing(such as in ''The Return''). Kinda hard to miss what you were personally involved in, but that's all I have to say. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 10:40, 27 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
:::::Maybe it's just zealous rhetoric, mostly for the scare, and it's possible the Covenant themselves consider it "full" if every human on the planet is dead. Even without completely covering the planet in plasma, there's going to be some serious environmental damage on a global scale. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:07, 27 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
::::That is indeed true, and something that needs to be taken into account. However, the power of their weapons would have to be increased drastically for it to make any meaningful difference. We have no idea how many ships the UNSC had at the time, but it's probably more than one thousand. Either way, it's considerably more than what the Covenant had in most of their glassing operations; I would assume it was rare they had over a hundred ships present at a time. In a hypothetical, and unlikely, scenario where a thousand Covenant ships were to glass an Earth-sized planet, even if they had double the firepower they have in space combat, it would still take 15 years to glass the planet, and if it had deep oceans, considerably more. For them to be able to perform the task in a matter of days or even weeks, the firepower unleashed in glassing would have to be dozens of times greater than in direct space combat. | |||
::::If we look back to some other recent depictions of glassing, there's a noticeable pattern. It started with Halo Wars, where Harvest, a planet thought to have been glassed completely, still retains a breathable atmosphere and intact buildings and such. Even more obvious is The Return in Evolutions, where it is made clear that the Covenant don't always perform glassing on a planetary scale. Only in rare cases, Kholo in this case, the Hierarchs order an "absolute annihilation" of a planet. However, even here, it is nowhere near as absolute as we've thought before, as evidenced by how after the war, the planet still has a breathable atmosphere, intact structures and even wooden boats remaining. Had the devastation been as complete as depicted in the first novels, this would not be possible. | |||
::::In the end, considering some of the recent treatments of the concept, this wasn't that big a revelation. It's simply the final link in the chain, the developers' way of re-defining the concept of glassing and delivering the new definition to us without outright saying "this is a retcon". Instead, they have the AIs of the Assembly explain what the moniker "glassing" really means and why it was adopted in the first place. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:07, 27 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
::Just noticed something. I was watching the Halo: Reach Announcement trailer not too long ago, and noticed something regarding each of the points. The blasts that are occuring there are Reach on ''TRULY'' massive, I would place them at roughly the size of the state of Texas(roughly, of course!) which of course exceeds the size of every known Covenant ship(even that supercarrier that nearly 9 times the size of New Mombasa!) This too me suggests something. Although the Covenant ''might'' not have the capability to absolutely lay waste to the entire planet and burn it to glass, they certainly do try, and perhaps the retcon is not the amount of firepower the Covenant has, but in the strength of that firepower itself. Same situation with Kholo, where we clearly observe the glassing commencing, and Harvest, which initially was being done by only one ship. Remember, there are two methods of glassing, orbitally, and low-range. Low-range definately has the ability to cook whatever it hits to glass, and even manage to drain that lake nearby New Mombasa in just hours, but it's impractical because it affects such a small area. However, the orbital bombings that we see in the Reach trailer exceed the size of ANY Covenant ship, so perhaps the distinction is in the power of the payload, not how big of an area said payload actually affects. Any thoughts? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:07, 27 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
:So just to clarify my point, seeing that a re-scan looks a little confusing to me!, what I'm saying that perhaps to carry over the same idea of orbital bombardment, but keep consistent with the calculated destruction given, that the Covenant are able to launch vast plasma blasts across planets in hours like previously thought, but perhaps that increasing the area of range reduces the power of the actual blast itself, hence why much of the landmass still seems to be intact. When they want to full on BURN something, then they resort to low-range glassing, where they can truly gurantee that the terrain beneath with burned to death. This seem to perhaps answer the question? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 11:15, 28 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
I always saw the data pads as under estimating the Covenant. Maybe the Covenant ships nee to push their reactors to the absolute limit and redirect all energy to glass.[[Special:Contributions/98.154.61.193|98.154.61.193]] 20:05, 28 October 2010 (EDT) | |||
== Plutonium? == | |||
A plasma is a gas that has been ionised, and Covenant plasma is superhot - that is all we know about the plasma used by the Covenant. My guess is that it's Plutonium-based plasma. This is because [[Wikipedia:Trinitite|Plutonium-based nuclear explosions leave behind a glassy residue]], just like the highly-radioactive element used in glassing. Further backing it up, Plutonium becomes a gas at 3228 °C - certainly enough to melt Titanium plating, which as a melting point of 1668 °C.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 11:48, 27 December 2010 (EST) | |||
==Best Ambigious== | |||
{{Quote|The term "glassing" was originally coined by the Assembly in 2526, who chose it hoping it would galvanize humanity into action. At the time, the Assembly also estimated that it would take 30.3801 years for a Covenant fleet of comparable size to that of the UNSC's to glass the entirety of Earth. However, the Covenant fleet was later discovered to be many times larger than imagined, with the power of the Covenant's weaponry also underestimated.|this article.}} | |||
I've decided to revisit this issue again, because I really don't think the page sufficiently addresses it. There's a drastic rift between the article's information and the most recent canon, and I think that certain things need to be covered more. | |||
The first thing is that this does appear to be a retcon. From Bungie's standpoint, this actually makes a lot of sense. Scientifically, orbital plasma bombardment of a planet is highly unfeasible. The power requirements, even from a Tritium Fusion Reactor or, as I once suspected, antimatter reactor, are enormous. It would be simpler just to blow up the planet. With all the insane requirements necessary, not to mention all the energy needed for before in the space battle, getting there in the first place, and heading back, scientifically, as when I've also read from the scientists who have discussed, orbital glassing is simply too impractical to be likely. | |||
On the other hand, we know full well the Covenant attempts it. From videos and trailers that depicted glassings, a single ship has been able to airstrike an area roughly the size of Texas. Whether it permanently damages the area to glass is debatable, but feasibly, they are able to attempt the attack. | |||
Furthermore, the Assembly's assumption of the Covenant's total firepower was based proportionally on their fleet being the size of the UNSC's. We know that in the early days of the war, the UNSC tended to outnumber the Covenant, this can easily be seen in ''Halo Wars: Genesis.'' In later days however, they actually outnumbered them, and it took a 4 to 1 ratio for the UNSC to beat their fleets. Again, all through observation of the canon. | |||
2nd, while the Assembly never outright retracts their statement on the insane time that it take to glass a planet, despite the possible update on the Covenant fleets, it does say that terraforming efforts have been calculated for Harvest and the other Outer Colonies, being estimated to nearly 110 to 300 years to restore. A glassing would definitely create a disaster of that magnitude, particularly with the need to terraform, and really real other reason can be brought up for it. | |||
And finally, there is the issue of the Covenant themselves. If they do not have the power to glass, it brings up a great many questions about, say, the Sanctum of the Hierarchs and their collection of shards, or the glassing ritual seen in ''The Return.'' The Covenant certainly does try, as well as before in the past with the Grunt Rebellion and the Taming of the Hunters, and that even for the purpose of boasting, that they never ask once in their head how they can’t actually uphold it. | |||
I would suggest that we edit the article to add a new section called “Feasibility” or “Authenticity” where we place all the relavaen t information on this issue, because I don’t think this is something that can be so easily solved. While the information takes the tone of retcon, other information from that same retcon supports the previous information, and I think that it’s best we rewrite the page to reflect that. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 19:18, 7 January 2011 (EST) | |||
:I agree on the fact that its impossible. However I disagree with the rest. The simple reason is that... what bungie said is canon. [[User talk:Steahl Senka|Steahl Senka]] 20:30, 7 January 2011 (EST) | |||
Then why are we treating it like it's not? We have an explanation on this page that there's no support in canon for, and seems to be more of an attempt to avoid a retcon. At the same time, though, it's difficult to make out what exactly the intent for the canon is too be, as we have some bits of canon information from the same source that go opposite directions. There '''DOESN'T''' seem to be a clear answer, and that's why'd I'd prefer that we change this page to acknowledge this. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 21:03, 7 January 2011 (EST) | |||
::The information in the article for the most part is correct, however there are certain things that need to be updated. I've been compiling all the new information and will update the article soon. However there is one big thing a lot of people don't mention or have completely forgotten about is that the Covenant don't just rely on the weapons attached to their ships, they also drop high yield energy bombs as evident by the long night of solace cutscene. Considering that the world has enough nuclear weapons to blanket the entire planet so many times over, its not impossible for the Covenant to do the same with different methods. | |||
::The old canon is still correct and is not so much of a retcon but more of an elaboration that makes sense, you need A LOT of ships in addition to A LOT of firepower to destroy a planet, but they can do it, the canon has already stated that and Reach reaffirms that in the first 5 seconds of the game. I don't believe a new section needs to be added but the information does need to be updated. Ill be getting to it very soon. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 22:12, 7 January 2011 (EST) | |||
That nuclear bomb bit is actually just "common knowledge", we actually don't have anywhere near the amount to kill 2% of the current total population(2% is 60 million people, but...). Regardless, it's debatable whether the Covenant really have that strength. It was pointed above in an earlier section that the numbers for the Covenant fleets are too low, you need 2000 ships to glass all of Reach in 30 years, and they brought 314. The orbital bombing is still occurring, but it's debatable how much "glassing" really occurs. Above I speculated perhaps the numbers were gotten from low-range glassing rather than from orbital strike, but there's little real reason to guess. | |||
And that's kinda my whole point, that we don't know what the actual cause is, that it half seems the Assembly's purpose to do so, and that the article should be re-done to reflect that. We have one source from the data pads that tells us glassing is an impossiblity, and another data pad that says terraforming efforts will take centuries. Definately let us take a look at the parts you plan to update, I'll be sure to want to see them, but I really don't think that we can come up with a fully conclusive answer. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:52, 8 January 2011 (EST) | |||
::May I remind you and fellow fans of an old interview by Jason Jones (the last one in fact since he hasn't done one in 10 year) of which he states: | |||
''"Believing they were being led to an undiscovered human world, yes, the vast majority of the Covenant fleet which destroyed Reach followed the Pillar of Autumn to Halo (a minority of the navy's AIs actually disagree with this, believing instead that the Covenant followed the Pillar of Autumn because they had already found the Alpha Halo and wanted to prevent the humans from finding it as well). '''The Covenant is so much larger than the Earth Empire, however, that the divergence of a fleet of this size has no impact whatever on their search for Earth.'''"'' | |||
::[http://www.bungie.net/news/content.aspx?cid=6 here is the link.] This I think is still as valid as ever, also take into consideration that Ghosts of Onyx also relates to this as well, when Kurt-051 questions how large the Covenant fleet really was during the review of PROMETHEUS. | |||
::I feel like all and all the intent is to discredit the old material, that even up to this very point (and I mean the re-release of Halo: First Strike) has never been touched and is for a fact still viewed as valid. If that is I don't agree with it, if its the other way around, well, its just me. I full well understand the rules of Halo canon, but many of us as fans too quickly want to discard the old because of the new, Halo canon doesn't work that way. We are in a state of, they say one thing, then say another, but as it has been stated long ago they won't flat out discard the old material or render it non-canon because if that was the case Fall of Reach, The Flood and First Strike would be completely different books right now. They had the power to rewrite the entire mythology but kept it the same with minor tweaks. | |||
::All in all I do think there is a valid explanation, and a good way to integrate all of this into the article, of which I will work on, but if the intent is or was to discard and discredit the old canon because the science or a pad say's otherwise is premature. We, as fans, Bungie and 343I as creators, are not scientists and no matter what, they're going to get it wrong and they're going to have to find some convoluted, scientifically stupid way of explaining it for entertainment purposes. Bungie meant well, trying to rationalize something they didn't know a lot about, at the time; but the execution of it though is flawed. They either didn't explain it well or didn't take the older pieces of work into consideration. | |||
::That, or it comes down to we don't understand what they were saying. In any case I will pass along my updates here before I make them public (by public I mean article wise). [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 02:40, 8 January 2011 (EST) | |||
That sounds reasonable. I was just afraid that we might end up trying to ignore newer information in favor of old. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 21:28, 8 January 2011 (EST) | |||
::No never, that's the way I work. I always try to integrate everything and try to make it as consistent as possible, without straying too far into speculation. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 21:45, 8 January 2011 (EST) | |||
== Some calculations == | |||
While I'm aware that this is likely to open up a gigantic can of worms, Stardestroyer.net has [http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/BaseDeltaZero.html some fascinating calculations] on how much energy would be required to perform something similar to the boil-the-atmosphere, vaporise-the-oceans, slag-the-continents-style glassing we all love.--[[User talk:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 10:42, 22 October 2011 (EDT) | |||