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*Mike; Adriana and Jai of Gray team were not at Reach. | *Mike; Adriana and Jai of Gray team were not at Reach. | ||
*Red team members "Douglas"; "Jerome" and "Alice" have been MIA since 2531. That makes 18 S-IIs ''officially'' available for Reach, and 15 officially ''on'' Reach - I don't know about "Keiichi"; "Daisy"; "Joseph" and "Ralph". Therefore; if Class-II exists, at least 13 SPARTAN-IIs must be class-II. | *Red team members "Douglas"; "Jerome" and "Alice" have been MIA since 2531. That makes 18 S-IIs ''officially'' available for Reach, and 15 officially ''on'' Reach - I don't know about "Keiichi"; "Daisy"; "Joseph" and "Ralph". Therefore; if Class-II exists, at least 13 SPARTAN-IIs must be class-II. | ||
Also apparently 2 killed themselves around 2525 | |||
Please comment [[#discussion|here]].-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 15:02, June 23, 2010 (UTC) | Please comment [[#discussion|here]].-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 15:02, June 23, 2010 (UTC) | ||
==Numbers== | |||
"Only 33 survived the procedures without physiological deformities, of whom two would commit suicide in the following weeks upon encountering their flash clones" | |||
"By August 27, 2552, 25 of the 28 remaining Spartan-IIs assigned to NAVSPECWEAP,[17][18][19][20][21] except Gray Team, had been recalled to Reach, some from combat,[17] to receive new orders for Operation: RED FLAG, " | |||
These two quotes from the article seem to contradict, because surely the 33 includes Red Team and Randall, whereas surely the 28 includes neither Red Team nor Randall, meaning that the "28" should be at most 27? | |||
===Sources=== | ===Sources=== | ||
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:I don't have any of the comics, but from memory reading the article I think Black Team was excluded from the official roster, declared "dead" during augmentation and reassigned and reequipped separately from the rest of the Spartan-II's. Both Black Team and the original Red Team are canon, as much as some people would like to ignore them, though some of the aesthetic additions are not - shields, for example. I doubt Red Team would have been on Reach - they were left drifting in space thousands of lightyears from human space, too far for a retrieval force to find them. As for the official "canon" number of Spartans in total, who survived augmentation, and survived until 2552 - the numbers are so contradictory that I find myself hard pressed to consider the original figures still canon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :I don't have any of the comics, but from memory reading the article I think Black Team was excluded from the official roster, declared "dead" during augmentation and reassigned and reequipped separately from the rest of the Spartan-II's. Both Black Team and the original Red Team are canon, as much as some people would like to ignore them, though some of the aesthetic additions are not - shields, for example. I doubt Red Team would have been on Reach - they were left drifting in space thousands of lightyears from human space, too far for a retrieval force to find them. As for the official "canon" number of Spartans in total, who survived augmentation, and survived until 2552 - the numbers are so contradictory that I find myself hard pressed to consider the original figures still canon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)<br /> | ||
<br /> | <br /> | ||
:Just occured to me while reading, the list of S-IIs is missing [[Unnamed Spartan (Harvest)]] And Yes I know his existance is disputed, but he is canon. [[User talk:SomethingDifferent|SomethingDifferent]] 11:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)<br /> | :Just occured to me while reading, the list of S-IIs is missing [[Unidentified Spartan-II|Unnamed Spartan (Harvest)]] And Yes I know his existance is disputed, but he is canon. [[User talk:SomethingDifferent|SomethingDifferent]] 11:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)<br /> | ||
<br /> | <br /> | ||
:I haven't made a detailed comparison with your list, but in case it helps, I tried to make a similar list a while ago [[User:Andrew Nagy/List of Spartan-IIs|here]], somewhat hampered by not having gone through every story (in particular Blood Line and Reach). I don't remember why I had Black Team at Reach, though, since you'd think their knowledge of the Forerunners and Flood would've got through to Cortana and made some kind of difference in Halo 1, same as with the Halo Wars crew. --[[User talk:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 23:18, 1 February 2011 (EST) | :I haven't made a detailed comparison with your list, but in case it helps, I tried to make a similar list a while ago [[User:Andrew Nagy/List of Spartan-IIs|here]], somewhat hampered by not having gone through every story (in particular Blood Line and Reach). I don't remember why I had Black Team at Reach, though, since you'd think their knowledge of the Forerunners and Flood would've got through to Cortana and made some kind of difference in Halo 1, same as with the Halo Wars crew. --[[User talk:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 23:18, 1 February 2011 (EST) | ||
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:Note that Candland is only a UI artist and, previous users said, his words cannot be taken as actual fact since he has contradicted much in the past. Vociferous, who is part of the team in charge of maintaining canon, provided the following: | :Note that Candland is only a UI artist and, previous users said, his words cannot be taken as actual fact since he has contradicted much in the past. Vociferous, who is part of the team in charge of maintaining canon, provided the following: | ||
{{Article | {{Article quote|She is based on a "real" and properly defined Spartan, but the appearance in the DOA game, for obvious reasons, is not canonical. That Spartan COULD be featured elsewhere, but there are no current plans.}} | ||
:This does support Candland's comment but also points out that she is ''based on a "real" and properly defined'' Spartan. Also note that he refers "that Spartan" instead of Nicole herself. This puts Nicole as being canon, in the sense that she is an alternate version of another Spartan, and not canon, in the sense that she does not exist in the Halo Universe. As such, to conclude, Nicole-458 is not canon in the Halo Universe.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:14, 27 April 2011 (EDT) | :This does support Candland's comment but also points out that she is ''based on a "real" and properly defined'' Spartan. Also note that he refers "that Spartan" instead of Nicole herself. This puts Nicole as being canon, in the sense that she is an alternate version of another Spartan, and not canon, in the sense that she does not exist in the Halo Universe. As such, to conclude, Nicole-458 is not canon in the Halo Universe.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:14, 27 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
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::I wouldn't call it a "needless" debate, as I'm sure the "Essential Visual Guide" isn't 100% accurate. Regardless, I think that his status should be changed to "Assumed KIA," as there is no body to confirm he was KIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 06:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ::I wouldn't call it a "needless" debate, as I'm sure the "Essential Visual Guide" isn't 100% accurate. Regardless, I think that his status should be changed to "Assumed KIA," as there is no body to confirm he was KIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 06:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
:::The visual guide, like any source, is likely not 100% accurate, but it is treated as factual unless there's a superior source that contradicts it. What reason do you have to assume that the confirmation of Jorge's death is ''not'' accurate? So far, every assertion that Jorge might be alive has been purely speculative with no facts to back it up. Assuming he's alive is a massive stretch even by the game's own logic - Kat states 700 people died in the accident whose circumstances the slipspace bomb was recreating. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 07:09, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | :::The visual guide, like any source, is likely not 100% accurate, but it is treated as factual unless there's a superior source that contradicts it. What reason do you have to assume that the confirmation of Jorge's death is ''not'' accurate? So far, every assertion that Jorge might be alive has been purely speculative with no facts to back it up. Assuming he's alive is a massive stretch even by the game's own logic - Kat states 700 people died in the accident whose circumstances the slipspace bomb was recreating. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 07:09, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
:::The ''Long Night of Solace'' fulfilled that very role; both were torn apart by the slipspace opening. Is it not possible that explosive compression and the destabilisation of the vessel's equipment (the drive is near the fusion core, remember) as the cause of deaths on both the normal and slipspace-dwelling halves? I still feel that a hole in slipspace wouldn't incinerate a vessel into fragments- while high-energy conditions could have effected the parts of the ship pulled into slipspace, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was totally contained and, based on our understanding of the drive, survived intact. We know of other drive failures that have plagued UNSC ships; they appear to have resulted in maintenance crews being thrown, unprotected, into slipspace. Personally, I believe that Jorge was killed not upon the drive's activation, but after he ended up right in front of a Covenant fleet. Perhaps we could look into the events to finally come to a conclusion.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:06, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | :::The ''Long Night of Solace'' fulfilled that very role; both were torn apart by the slipspace opening. Is it not possible that explosive compression and the destabilisation of the vessel's equipment (the drive is near the fusion core, remember) as the cause of deaths on both the normal and slipspace-dwelling halves? I still feel that a hole in slipspace wouldn't incinerate a vessel into fragments- while high-energy conditions could have effected the parts of the ship pulled into slipspace, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was totally contained and, based on our understanding of the drive, survived intact. We know of other drive failures that have plagued UNSC ships; they appear to have resulted in maintenance crews being thrown, unprotected, into slipspace. Personally, I believe that Jorge was killed not upon the drive's activation, but after he ended up right in front of a Covenant fleet. Perhaps we could look into the events to finally come to a conclusion.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:06, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
Actually, I think his status should be changed to MIA ^.^ Vegerot goes RAWR! | Actually, I think his status should be changed to MIA ^.^ Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 11:20, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!!!! | ||
Holy ^%*$!!! I spent 10 minuets typing out a reply to this, but then the website stopped functioning! *sigh* just to sum up what I said. Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him. Vegerot goes RAWR! | Holy ^%*$!!! I spent 10 minuets typing out a reply to this, but then the website stopped functioning! *sigh* just to sum up what I said. Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 16:47, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!! | ||
:"Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him." How do you figure? More specifically, what hundred factors? It's likely that if the Corvette survived, he could easily take a Seraph or Banshee to escape the rubble. Most of the crew of the ''Ardent Prayer'' were killed in the initial assault. Plus, he's a ''Spartan.'' If the Corvette was in-tact it would still have atmosphere, his suit is sealed, and a ship that he could hijack would also have air. The UNSC would pick up his IFF, and would very likely hold fire to wait and see whatever the ship he commandeered did, and when he didn't attack they would very likely allow him to land. | :"Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him." How do you figure? More specifically, what hundred factors? It's likely that if the Corvette survived, he could easily take a Seraph or Banshee to escape the rubble. Most of the crew of the ''Ardent Prayer'' were killed in the initial assault. Plus, he's a ''Spartan.'' If the Corvette was in-tact it would still have atmosphere, his suit is sealed, and a ship that he could hijack would also have air. The UNSC would pick up his IFF, and would very likely hold fire to wait and see whatever the ship he commandeered did, and when he didn't attack they would very likely allow him to land. | ||
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:I'm really not seeing the factors that would kill him if he has survived. Regardless there is no confirmation of his death (no body,) and so it should be listed as MIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 18:43, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | :I'm really not seeing the factors that would kill him if he has survived. Regardless there is no confirmation of his death (no body,) and so it should be listed as MIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 18:43, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
1st of all, he should be listed as MIA anyway. Second. I was not aware of the fact that the Corvette would have survived. If it did then what was the point, besides for only temporarily removing it? Vegerot goes RAWR! | 1st of all, he should be listed as MIA anyway. Second. I was not aware of the fact that the Corvette would have survived. If it did then what was the point, besides for only temporarily removing it? Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 18:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
:I'm only speculating that the Corvette survived, but I feel that it's well founded. The plan was always to use the Corvette as a means to safely get the slipspace drive close to the ''Long Night of Solace.'' Why would it gun one of it's own ships down? Then the drive would be activated, and in such a close proximity to the slipspace blast, it would destroy the Supercarrier by transporting a large section of it off. There was no actual explosion. The ''Ardent Prayer'' was in the center of this jump, and for all intents and purposes the ship was intact. I only assume that as it was not in the "fringe" of the slipspace field, it was transported to the unknown location, with the abducted sections of the ''Long Night of Solace.'' [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 19:30, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | :I'm only speculating that the Corvette survived, but I feel that it's well founded. The plan was always to use the Corvette as a means to safely get the slipspace drive close to the ''Long Night of Solace.'' Why would it gun one of it's own ships down? Then the drive would be activated, and in such a close proximity to the slipspace blast, it would destroy the Supercarrier by transporting a large section of it off. There was no actual explosion. The ''Ardent Prayer'' was in the center of this jump, and for all intents and purposes the ship was intact. I only assume that as it was not in the "fringe" of the slipspace field, it was transported to the unknown location, with the abducted sections of the ''Long Night of Solace.'' [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 19:30, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
Remember what Kat said at the beginning of the operation? Vegerot goes RAWR! | Remember what Kat said at the beginning of the operation? Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 19:47, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!! | ||
:Yes, I remember exactly what she said. That's what happened to the ''Long Night of Solace,'' the ship was sectioned off by the slipspace field. The way I imagine it is as the New Mombasa Slipspace Incident. The ''In Amber Clad'' was able to "piggyback" off the slipspace field emitted from the ''Solemn Penance ''. Buildings and vehicles caught in the field were also transported. All of the objects were brought to Installation 05 unharmed, minus buildings that would have been partially enveloped in the field. The way I see it, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was small enough that it was completely contained in the slipspace field, and was transported as is. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 20:31, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | :Yes, I remember exactly what she said. That's what happened to the ''Long Night of Solace,'' the ship was sectioned off by the slipspace field. The way I imagine it is as the New Mombasa Slipspace Incident. The ''In Amber Clad'' was able to "piggyback" off the slipspace field emitted from the ''Solemn Penance ''. Buildings and vehicles caught in the field were also transported. All of the objects were brought to Installation 05 unharmed, minus buildings that would have been partially enveloped in the field. The way I see it, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was small enough that it was completely contained in the slipspace field, and was transported as is. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 20:31, 5 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
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::::Healthy speculation is always welcomed in Halopedia as long as they are kept in the talk pages <sup>(though this is not always the case...)</sup>. However, it should be noted that if an official source has indeed provide an information about a subject, we should publish that information as it is without further elaboration unless it requires some detailed explanation. If there is a contradiction between sources, then the more authoritative sources shall prevail over other sources. As it is right now, there is no official sources that states that Jorge survived the detonation, thus it is established that there is no contradiction/discrepancy ''for now'', hence the information provided by the ''Visual Guide'' shall stay in the article as a fact. As Jugus said, ''"I don't think this should leave much room for interpretation."'' The statement regarding John as the last Spartan provided by HCE manual has been trumped by newer sources several times, hence would be considered as a retcon and holds nothing to this discussion. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 14:57, 6 September 2011 (EDT) | ::::Healthy speculation is always welcomed in Halopedia as long as they are kept in the talk pages <sup>(though this is not always the case...)</sup>. However, it should be noted that if an official source has indeed provide an information about a subject, we should publish that information as it is without further elaboration unless it requires some detailed explanation. If there is a contradiction between sources, then the more authoritative sources shall prevail over other sources. As it is right now, there is no official sources that states that Jorge survived the detonation, thus it is established that there is no contradiction/discrepancy ''for now'', hence the information provided by the ''Visual Guide'' shall stay in the article as a fact. As Jugus said, ''"I don't think this should leave much room for interpretation."'' The statement regarding John as the last Spartan provided by HCE manual has been trumped by newer sources several times, hence would be considered as a retcon and holds nothing to this discussion. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 14:57, 6 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
Jugas said: "''While there was an "'''explosion'''" it was one that simply took objects from the slipspace field and transported them elsewhere.''" Just a slight correction, technically it was an implosion, not an explosion. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[ | Jugas said: "''While there was an "'''explosion'''" it was one that simply took objects from the slipspace field and transported them elsewhere.''" Just a slight correction, technically it was an implosion, not an explosion. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 19:22, 6 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
True, that some things like this have content that are not canon, but that's only if something on a higher level contradicts that. There is nothing that's on a higher level which explicitly states that Jorge survived, so he didn't. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 19:51, 6 September 2011 (EDT)!!! | |||
Disregarding Subtank's edit, I believe you understood my point now. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 22:55, 6 September 2011 (EDT)! | |||
:Until there is a body for the UNSC to identify as Jorge, it should read that he is MIA, and assumed KIA during Operation Uppercut. No body means that his status as KIA cannot possibly be ''confirmed.''--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 22:17, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
::Of course it can't be confirmed, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that we have various sources stating he '''''is''''' KIA. Making the article to read he is MIA and assumed KIA contradicts previously established canon. The article will not be changed to read that way.-- '''''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color: olivedrab; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''Col. Spartacus'''</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">'''Talk Page'''</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Black">Contributions</font>]]''</sub> 22:47, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::Not really, as all of those "confirmed KIA's" operate off the assumption that he is KIA. Imagine if there had been no Epilogue cutscene to Halo 3. Up until the release of Halo 4, John-117 would have then been listed as KIA, especially since we see his "memorial." Thus far the only source stating that Jorge is KIA is the Essentials Guide, yes? This site has a list of several mistakes that the Essentials Guide has made, not to mention that it is basically the "Halo Encyclopedia v2." Even with the Bungie commentary, their statements on Jorge's status are very ambiguous - indicating that they didn't even have a plot designed for him. Going off that alone, his fate is very ambiguous, having neither death nor survival planned out. Also, I've been exploring several canon parallels that lend favor to his survival, of which I can outline here.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 22:54, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::To add to this, I just don't see why we can list some Spartans that disappear in actually violent explosions as assumed KIA, yet we can't do this with Jorge just because a supplementary guide says he's dead.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 22:59, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
::::Yes, we can. The Guide is an official canon document supported by 343 Industries. What they say is canon goes, unless it contradicts previously established canon. Does Jorge's status contradict previously established canon? Nope, no source evr stated anything differently. The mistakes in the Guide are listed on it's page here. Do you see Jorge's status as KIA on the list of mistakes? Nope, since no one has stated that Jorge's status in it is a mistake, we must take it as such and accept it as canon. You're ignoring canon.-- '''''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color: olivedrab; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''Col. Spartacus'''</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">'''Talk Page'''</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Black">Contributions</font>]]''</sub> 23:07, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::::Ignoring canon by recognizing a possibility for survival? The increasing hostility to the theory of that possibility confuses the hell out of me. The page and guide can say what they want, but until there is a body or a far more official statement of his status, I will pursue the theory. Keep in mind that technically ''Glasslands'' is canon. So are Spartans able to punch elderly women without completely liquifying their skulls, now? I applaud and appreciate that nothing can be put on this site without the most strenuous canonical filters, but in instances like this I think assumption takes too great a hold.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 23:11, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
::::::Excuse me, but how the hell does ''Glasslands'' have anything to do with this? As Subtank said above: ''It should be noted that if an official source has indeed provide an information about a subject, we should publish that information as it is without further elaboration unless it requires some detailed explanation. If there is a contradiction between sources, then the more authoritative sources shall prevail over other sources. As it is right now, there is no official sources that states that Jorge survived the detonation, thus it is established that there is no contradiction/discrepancy ''for now'', hence the information provided by the ''Visual Guide'' shall stay in the article as a fact. As Jugus said, ''"I don't think this should leave much room for interpretation."''-- '''''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color: olivedrab; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''Col. Spartacus'''</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">'''Talk Page'''</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Black">Contributions</font>]]''</sub> 23:19, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
:It's moderately relevant because ''Glasslands'' is a source of canon. Yet that source of canon seriously downplays the enhanced strength of Spartans. So is that canon, now? The Essential Guide says that Jorge is dead, but does it outline how? Was the ''Ardent Prayer'' destroyed? Was he teleported into a sun? There is no explanation, therefore though it's "canon," it's basically an assumption. For instance, take Isaac-039. He and Vinh-030 disappeared on Reach in an explosion, never to be seen again. Is there any canon founding that they might be alive? Or that they might be dead? It's a complete unknown, likely death, but they're listed as "Assumed KIA." So where's the line?--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 23:27, 7 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
::Regarding "So are Spartans able to punch elderly women without completely liquifying their skulls, now?" Well, compared to SPARTAN-IIs, SPARTAN-IIIs only received chemical enhancements and not surgical. Their physical strength, of which has not been displayed or described, ''might'' not reach to the level of a SPARTAN-II. Another explanation ''could'' be that she held back most of her strength. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 07:06, 8 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::Chemical Enhancements that did near the same thing as the Spartan II project. Specifically, drug 88005-MX77 increased their muscle density, allowing them greater strength as the Spartan II's, and drug 8942-LQ99 hardened their bones to make them virtually "unbreakable." These drugs mimic and achieve the same end as the Carbide Ceramic Ossification, Catalytic Thyroid Implant and Muscular Enhancement Injections of the Spartan II project. As for the explanation that she "held back," this is completely countered by the description that the punch was so hard it shook the Spartan's arm up to her elbow.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 18:31, 8 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
::::Guess Halsey is really hard-headed... :P — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 18:40, 8 May 2012 (EDT) | |||
== Unknown SPARTAN II == | == Unknown SPARTAN II == | ||
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== Can't we all just be friends? == | == Can't we all just be friends? == | ||
Discuss this ridiculous edit war here. Maybe if we can form consensus on this, Sub will unprotect the page, I have changes I want to make. Vegerot goes RAWR! | Discuss this ridiculous edit war here. Maybe if we can form consensus on this, Sub will unprotect the page, I have changes I want to make. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 20:48, 22 January 2012 (EST)! | ||
The Spartan II listed as Kelly in the gallery for Ghosts of Onyx is actually Kurt S052, and proven within the source. He has chosen to don the armor of the Spartan III's which he held command over. | |||
== All S-IIs should have Fall of Reach appearances == | == All S-IIs should have Fall of Reach appearances == | ||
Since all the S-IIs (Class-I) were of the 75 children abducted, it should be then that they have a indirect mention in The Fall of Reach. For example, Osman was one of 14 (or 12?) washouts. It should be then that she has a indirect mention in the Fall of Reach since she was one of the washouts. [[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] | Since all the S-IIs (Class-I) were of the 75 children abducted, it should be then that they have a indirect mention in The Fall of Reach. For example, Osman was one of 14 (or 12?) washouts. It should be then that she has a indirect mention in the Fall of Reach since she was one of the washouts. [[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] | ||
:No, they shouldn't. Check your talk page and see this.-- ''<span style="color:Aqua; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">AP</span>[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color:Aqua; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">RIL</span>]][[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Cyan">'''FO'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Cyan">O</font>]][[Special:Emailuser/Spartacus|<font color="Cyan">'''LS'''</font>]]'' 15:52, 1 April 2012 (EDT) | |||
Perhaps we should change the "indirect mention" tag to read "alluded to" or something like that instead. Because stuff like this happens again, it should be made more clear that "indirect mention" means more than just "we're guessing they were around here at this time", rather an actual reference. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 16:02, 1 April 2012 (EDT) | |||
:I agree. An appearance, however indirect, should constitute more than just a mention of a given group of people or objects. For example, in ''Glasslands'', when Dr. Halsey mentions meeting a team of Spartans previously unknown to her on Reach, it's an clearly allusion to NOBLE Team. Despite this, it doesn't really qualify as an appearance of every individual member of the team, as they aren't mentioned by name or described in any way. The same is true to the SPARTAN-IIs: ''The Fall of Reach'' mentions them as a group several times, but it's ultimately pointless to list this as an appearance of every one of them, especially given how most of them hadn't even been thought up at the time the book was written. Similarly, we're not listing [[Antonio Silva]] or most of the characters unique to ''The Flood'' as appearing in ''Halo: Combat Evolved'', even though they were on the ''Pillar of Autumn'' and Installation 04 at the time. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:46, 2 April 2012 (EDT) | |||
== All from Outer Colonies? == | |||
A number of sources say that every SII was taken from families in the Outer Colonies. Jorge however is from Reach, an Inner Colony. Is he the exception to the this rule or am I missing something?--[[User talk:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] 05:08, 11 June 2012 (EDT) | |||
== Capitalization of "Program" == | |||
I don't think the "program" part has ever been capitalized in the novels. It's consistently rendered as the "SPARTAN-II program"; same with the S-IIIs. Think this is just another leftover of our old habit of capitalizing everything. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:48, 27 January 2014 (EST) | |||
:I agree. The capitalization doesn't come to mind as something that was ever officially done. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:07, 27 January 2014 (EST) | |||
::''Mortal Dictata'' brought the same thought to my mind. Now I wonder just how many of our article titles are unnecessarily capitalized. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 11:54, 27 January 2014 (EST) | |||
== Old/New Spartans == | |||
I present you folk with this image. | |||
<gallery> | |||
File:Spartan-II canidates.png | |||
</gallery> | |||
There is 6 Spartans(plus Joseph-122 and John-117) in this that actually dont have pages. Six that at the time this was happening Halsey was talking about having her 75 candidates. So these 6 made it to training and are part of the 75 inducted Spartans. Though if they survived augmentations is unknown. <br> | |||
Spartan-116, Spartan-121, Spartan-118, Spartan-123, Spartan-119, Spartan-124] | |||
<br> | |||
If there is enough support of the matter. It may be an idea to add them to the list of Spartans.- [[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 23:10, 17 September 2015 (GMT) | |||
:Good find, may as well add them to the list with an unknown status given we don't know if they passed the augmentations or not. As far as articles are concerned, I think we would need more information to warrant creating pages for them.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 19:50, 17 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
==Animation Retcon== | |||
Ok let me put this here then. And see if anyone supports the edit or not. | |||
In act 2 of the animation. It is said clearly by Deja that 27 candidates died from Augmentations. While this contradicts the original 30 spartans thing. Let me remind you that it was John thinking it. And not a direct statement from someone who was going the augmentations. So really depending on the situation. Maybe the other Spartans didn't hear or know that 3 Spartans had died till after the Augmentations. | |||
This goes on to support that 3 Spartans died during training that is also shown in the animation. Which brings the total to 30 spartans dead by augmentations. This isn't something that breaks the lore after all just changes the numbers a lil. Seeing as what I said brings forth the reason that the original number could of been a mistake on Johns part.- [[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 18:13, 1 November 2015 (GMT) | |||
:How would they be able to hide three Spartans dying from John and the other trainees? The Spartans were extremely tight-knit for all that time so it's not something they could really cover up. And fellow trainees dying isn't really something John would forget about just like that either. The Halsey journal also makes a mention on September 27, 2520 that the program received its first casualty - who was an instructor - only then, and makes no mention of trainees dying before or after. It doesn't explicitly disprove the notion, of course, but it's a little odd Halsey would fail to mention the trainee casualties if they were there canonically. To me it makes much more sense to treat the training-era fatalities as another quirk of the adaptation, just like Linda and Fred being part of Blue Team since day one (and countless others). --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 13:39, 1 November 2015 (EST) | |||
::I agree with Jugus. Also note that it states that the 27 fatalities represent 36% of the candidates, which only works if all 75 underwent the procedures.--[[User:Rusty-112|<span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">''' Rusty'''</span><span style="font-size:13pt;color:red;">'''-'''</span><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">'''112'''</span>]] [[Halopedia:Administrators|<span style="color:red; font-family:Arial">'''''Admin'''''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Rusty-112|<font color="blue">'''comm'''</font>]]</sup> 14:56, 1 November 2015 (EST) | |||
:::Guys, I recently watched the Spanish version of TFOR and there's a mention of "78" candidates instead of "75". --[[User:Dr Mutran|They're coming. They're hungry.]] ([[User talk:Dr Mutran|talk]]) 15:12, 1 November 2015 (EST) | |||
::::That number directly contradicts all previously established sources, which all said there were 75 candidates conscripted. It should be treated as an error. Our policy when it comes to things like this is quite clear.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 16:28, 1 November 2015 (EST) | |||
== Results Section? == | |||
I'm not entirely sure whether this was supposed to have consistency or not, but shouldn't this section be renamed to "Performance" like the Spartan III sections? More can be added other than just CQC. -[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 15:22, 30 October 2016 (EDT) | |||
==Successfully augmented split== | |||
I am gonna propose we split up the [https://www.halopedia.org/SPARTAN-II_program#Successfully_augmented successfully augmented] section in Class 1 into two sections. | |||
1. A section of those we know 100% passed augs without any question. Aka a "Successfully augmented" section like it is already. This would have folks like John-117, Sam-034 so on. | |||
2. A section in which we list those who are seen after Rehabilitation starts in 2526. So spartans like Keiichi-047, Jorge-052, Black team, so on. | |||
The reason for this is to be a lot more accurate in who we know actually passed augmentations at the start, and who we are not certain are in the og 33 list of Spartans.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 11:50, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
== Unnamed SPARTAN-IIs == | |||
There are SPARTAN-IIs in First Strike that are just redshirts, appropriately part of Red Team (I listed them on another site). | |||
It includes 3 in Red Delta, and 6 in Beta (originally 11, changed in later edition), and those who died in the pelican crash. | |||
Should this be mentioned in this article? | |||
[[User:Enough Redshirts|Enough Redshirts]] ([[User talk:Enough Redshirts|talk]]) 03:03, March 17, 2019 (EDT) | |||