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It's indicated that a universal new Covenant body ''was'' indeed formed (by whom?), thus making Jul's or Vol's factions splinter groups of a larger polity. However, since it's also suggested the new Covenant has little in the way of defined leadership or even structure, it may be that it exists mostly as an idea rather than a proper organization. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:47, 18 November 2014 (EST) | It's indicated that a universal new Covenant body ''was'' indeed formed (by whom?), thus making Jul's or Vol's factions splinter groups of a larger polity. However, since it's also suggested the new Covenant has little in the way of defined leadership or even structure, it may be that it exists mostly as an idea rather than a proper organization. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:47, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
:My interpretation of it was that Jul's faction is the largest, dominant Covenant faction, but that other smaller groups maintain some autonomy, some reporting to him and others not. I'm trying to come up with an applicable analogy, but it's not easy - I suppose the Greeks? The Greek city-states have unified or been at each others throats throughout their ancient history, but they all share a common culture and are thought of as Greek, or Hellenic. They're all "Covenant," in that they all seem to identify as such, and share a common composition, aim (deposing the Arbiter and/or wiping out humanity) and strategies and tactics. The Arbiter's faction, the Swords of Sanghelios, are the only faction we've seen explicitly refute identifying themselves as Covenant. I don't think this really changes our current designation system though - even in-universe it's a work-in-progress, and "Covenant remnants" is still the best descriptor we have to separate what's left from the original Covenant at its height. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[ | :My interpretation of it was that Jul's faction is the largest, dominant Covenant faction, but that other smaller groups maintain some autonomy, some reporting to him and others not. I'm trying to come up with an applicable analogy, but it's not easy - I suppose the Greeks? The Greek city-states have unified or been at each others throats throughout their ancient history, but they all share a common culture and are thought of as Greek, or Hellenic. They're all "Covenant," in that they all seem to identify as such, and share a common composition, aim (deposing the Arbiter and/or wiping out humanity) and strategies and tactics. The Arbiter's faction, the Swords of Sanghelios, are the only faction we've seen explicitly refute identifying themselves as Covenant. I don't think this really changes our current designation system though - even in-universe it's a work-in-progress, and "Covenant remnants" is still the best descriptor we have to separate what's left from the original Covenant at its height. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 02:40, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
::Gonna' agree with what Morhek said here as well.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 02:47, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ::Gonna' agree with what Morhek said here as well.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 02:47, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
:::Oh, I absolutely agree. It's just that we might want to better convey the way the anti-human, anti-Arbiter remnant factions are grouped together under the same ideological "new Covenant" umbrella. Groups like Jul's faction have no name of their own because they claim to be ''the'' one true Covenant, which is already reflected in Zef 'Trahl's quote on the top of the page. I wonder if the talk about the UNSC making a peace treaty with "the Covenant" in ''Halo: Nightfall'' (and ''Halo 4''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[ | :::Oh, I absolutely agree. It's just that we might want to better convey the way the anti-human, anti-Arbiter remnant factions are grouped together under the same ideological "new Covenant" umbrella. Groups like Jul's faction have no name of their own because they claim to be ''the'' one true Covenant, which is already reflected in Zef 'Trahl's quote on the top of the page. I wonder if the talk about the UNSC making a peace treaty with "the Covenant" in ''Halo: Nightfall'' (and ''Halo 4''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[Dawn]]!) factors into this at all or if they're really just referring to Thel's group. It's strange that ONI is so concerned about Hesduros-style Zealots breaking the treaty when they should know better than anyone that the UNSC never negotiated any treaties with this Covenant. Or did they? --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:59, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
::::I'm guessing Thel's faction wasn't given the name Swords of Sangheilios until after Nightfall was filmed.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 03:39, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ::::I'm guessing Thel's faction wasn't given the name Swords of Sangheilios until after Nightfall was filmed.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 03:39, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
:::::My guess is that the Covenant, as we know it now, didn't emerge until after the UNSC signed its treaty with Thel's faction. Up until the Servants of the Abiding Truth's uprising, and the emergence of Jul 'Mdama's (possibly separate) faction, the Arbiter was the leader of what was left of the Covenant remnant by default. I doubt any treaty agreed to by him would be considered valid by any of the groups who oppose him, especially since it is probably ''why'' they oppose him. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[ | :::::My guess is that the Covenant, as we know it now, didn't emerge until after the UNSC signed its treaty with Thel's faction. Up until the Servants of the Abiding Truth's uprising, and the emergence of Jul 'Mdama's (possibly separate) faction, the Arbiter was the leader of what was left of the Covenant remnant by default. I doubt any treaty agreed to by him would be considered valid by any of the groups who oppose him, especially since it is probably ''why'' they oppose him. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 04:40, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
::::::Exactly. So why is ONI being so pedantic about a group of extremists breaking a treaty the UNSC signed with an entity said extremists are no longer part of? Does the UNSC hold Thel accountable for the actions of every Sangheili fanatic out there? If so, they'd had plenty of reasons to complain after the massive invasion of a human world in ''Spartan Assault'', to say nothing of the events at Requiem. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:11, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ::::::Exactly. So why is ONI being so pedantic about a group of extremists breaking a treaty the UNSC signed with an entity said extremists are no longer part of? Does the UNSC hold Thel accountable for the actions of every Sangheili fanatic out there? If so, they'd had plenty of reasons to complain after the massive invasion of a human world in ''Spartan Assault'', to say nothing of the events at Requiem. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:11, 18 November 2014 (EST) | ||
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:I still fail to see why this is such a big deal. By the strictest definition of the term, the Swords of Sanghelios, Servants of the Abiding Truth, Keepers of the One Freedom, the Banished, 'Gajat's group, Lydus' Master-pack, or Kig-Yar pirates are not "Covenant remnants" either. The fact is that the statement in the introduction isn't some irrefutable set of criteria. It isn't even official since there is no conclusive official definition, which leaves us to come up with the most intuitive and informative way to organize this information. Yes, Xytan's group probably doesn't qualify as a Covenant remnant, but it is also far closer to one in other respects than many of the other groups listed on the page (e.g. Lydus's master-pack, Kig-Yar pirates). 'Refumee's heretics are clearly not a "remnant" as they were destroyed while the Covenant was still whole. But I'm modifying the introduction to accommodate this. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 05:31, 1 September 2016 (EDT) | :I still fail to see why this is such a big deal. By the strictest definition of the term, the Swords of Sanghelios, Servants of the Abiding Truth, Keepers of the One Freedom, the Banished, 'Gajat's group, Lydus' Master-pack, or Kig-Yar pirates are not "Covenant remnants" either. The fact is that the statement in the introduction isn't some irrefutable set of criteria. It isn't even official since there is no conclusive official definition, which leaves us to come up with the most intuitive and informative way to organize this information. Yes, Xytan's group probably doesn't qualify as a Covenant remnant, but it is also far closer to one in other respects than many of the other groups listed on the page (e.g. Lydus's master-pack, Kig-Yar pirates). 'Refumee's heretics are clearly not a "remnant" as they were destroyed while the Covenant was still whole. But I'm modifying the introduction to accommodate this. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 05:31, 1 September 2016 (EDT) | ||
::It isn't a big deal, didn't meant to frame it as such. More so a minor concern as to why we include some factions but don't include others. Thanks for updating the definition[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 10:06, 3 September 2016 (EDT) | |||
=== Problem Solved! === | |||
I'm so glad this has been resolved, I wish I had solved this problem sooner. We were all on the same page, really >.< [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 04:07, 23 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
== Ussans == | |||
Having read the rest of this talk page, I approach this topic with trepidation. But I digress. | |||
I fail to see why the Ussans are listed here as a 'Covenant remnant' simply due to the fact that its members were never really part of the Covenant in the first place. They rejected the treaty the rest of the Sangheili had signed with the Prophets and ran off.--[[User:D9328|D9328]] ([[User talk:D9328|talk]]) 18:41, 9 March 2019 (EST)d9328 | |||
:I agree. While I've made the point in the past that some of the groups listed on this page may not qualify as Covenant remnants under the strictest definition, but are still listed for the sake of accessibility, it's pretty difficult to justify the Ussans' inclusion for the reasons you mentioned. --[[User:Tacitus|Tacitus]] ([[User talk:Tacitus|talk]]) 10:43, 10 March 2019 (EDT) | |||
::I'd say they should be included in the "other" section alongside Sesa's heretics and the Joyous Exultation summit. It's good to keep them on the page as a Covenant species-led group but as mentioned, they're definitely not ''Covenant'' remnants.[[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 12:19, 10 March 2019 (EDT) | |||