Forum:312 or 117
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Who do you think is the better soldier, and why? I personally am leaning more towards 312. I mean they're pretty evenly balanced as far as their abilities go, of course John-117 outlived the Fall of Reach, of course only because he wasn't on the ground, but if you think about it Noble Six racked up a whopper of a body count during the month or so he participated in the Battle of Reach, which took John his entire career. I think, if Six had been given the opportunity, he could've outshined both Blue Team and Noble Team, and probably have ended up as John-117's partner in a lot of missions, but ultimately I think Noble Six achieved more than Master Chief in a shorter amount of time. I mean, of course John-117 did more, because he was alive to do so, but I ultimately believe, being as young as he was, Noble Six was a very exceptional SPARTAN, probably the best out of all of the SPARTAN programs combined, whereas John-117 was the best of the SPARTAN-II Program, or second-best when including Frederic-104 and probably tied for second-best with Kurt-051, but I could see Noble Six taking on John-117, Fred, and Kurt all at once and holding his own. He may not have their experience but he definitely outperforms them in close combat, Fred would arguably be the one he has the most issue with in close combat, I don't remember John being exceptional in close melee-style combat like Fred. --Kluutak 15:44, 16 February 2012 (EST)
- There is no possible way SPARTAN-B312 killed more Covenant in one month than John-117 killed in 28 years of fighting. It's logically impossible. I feel though John-117 is better because he saved humanity from many threats such as Halo, The Flood, the Covenant, etc., whereas B-312 only sacrificed his life during the Fall of Reach and is known to have only participated in one engagement against the Covenant.--Spartacus Talk • Contribs
- Whoa whoa whoa there! Are we forgetting Long Night of Solace? That Ket-pattern battlecruiser he destroyed? What about the last level Lone Wolf where there is an unlimited amount of infantry that can be fought? Not to mention he has single-handedly made entire militia groups "disappear". Having broken entire insurrectionist organizations makes up for a massive body count in and of itself. Noble Six was regarded more as a hyper-lethal vector, than a Soldier. I don't recall Master Chief or any of the other SPARTAN-IIs being considered hyper-lethal. The assertion that Fall of Reach was his only engagement with the Covenant is pure absurdity considering how well he deals with them in combat, not to mention how expertly he is able to use Covenant weaponry in campaign. In my personal opinion the only other UNSC individual to compare to Noble Six is Preston Cole and Danforth Whitcomb to an extent. I'd say that Cole, Whitcomb, and Six are the "big three" of the UNSC as far as massive body counts go. --Kluutak 17:25, 16 February 2012 (EST)
- Except canonically the infantry at the end of the game is not unlimited because Six eventually dies. Plus Six was only active since the 2540's. Also are you forgetting the Unyielding Hierophant and the estimated 500 ship fleet that was nearly wiped out by John-117 and his team in First Strike? Plus it's more than possible that John destroyed many other Covenant ships during his time of service. In 28 years of warfare John is going to have a way higher body count than anyone who has been in service for 10 years or less. Why are you using hyper-lethal as an example when I recall that you yourself removed that quote from a page because you thought it was non-canon?--Spartacus Talk • Contribs
- Unyielding Hierophant was destroyed by Cortana when she overloaded its 512 reactors by copying herself and overloading its systems, so if anything the credit goes to Cortana. Okay, we'll forget the Hyper-Lethal quote for now. But you still seem to be ignoring the fact that while Master Chief struggled with the Insurrectionists, being captured by them several times, Noble Six destroyed entire resistance groups by himself. And if you ask me 10 years is also plenty of time to make a name for himself. Obviously Cortana chose him to be her courier for a reason, he's the only other SPARTAN to have been chosen for such a task, she wouldn't have chosen him for no good reason, obviously there was a reason for him being chosen to be her courier, and it was because she knew he was the only one who could do it. Why? Because he is an exceptional SPARTAN. I don't dislike John-117, I actually like him better than Six - but he deserves more credit than he gets, he accomplished amazing feats that often go unrecognized simply because he was outlived by John-117. And even if he has more confirmed kills, which I doubt, it doesn't weigh in on any other fact than John-117 has been in combat longer, and had more opportunity to accumulate such kills, it doesn't mean he's better. The only way to gauge this would be if they directly competed against one another in some sort of exercise. And having not been in battle as long as John-117 would even further lean in favor of Noble Six due to John-117 having more "scars" and health problems due to such prolonged exposure to battle. He may be a SPARTAN but 27 years of straight combat would take its toll, much less so than 10. --Kluutak 17:48, 16 February 2012 (EST)
- I don't think it's completely fair to compare Six to John because for one thing they are completely different classes of Spartan, so their abilities, strengths and weaknesses are different anyway, before you take into account their individual traits. Another difference is that Six fought mostly Innies for much of his career, only coming up against Covies relatively late on. Meanwhile the Master Chief fought both Rebels and Covenant for long periods of time. Not to mention that John has also battled extensively with the Flood and Sentinels, neither of which Six has ever encountered. So for all we know, if he had lived longer Six could have turned out utterly hopeless in combat against those particular enemies. Also, I just want to point out, technically Jorge-052 destroyed the LNOS, not Six. 06fitzjam 17:02, 26 February 2012 (EST)
- Since there is no canonical version of Six there is no accurate way to say that and it be justified at the same time. In their own mind, the Noble Six character is a SPARTAN of epic proportion, completely outclassing all of his SPARTAN brethren in every category. Not to mention he has taken down entire militia organizations, which would easily put his confirmed kills at several thousand. Also since there is no "canon" version of Lone Wolf, there is no approximate number of Covenant killed. He could be fighting all day before he dies, which would add on at least another several hundred kills before his or her death. As per LNOS, I think the kill goes to both Six and Jorge, since they both are responsible for its destruction. Six locked in the docking coordinates, Jorge armed the bomb. The LNOS could not have been destroyed if either was missing from the operation. --Kluutak 14:28, 27 February 2012 (EST)
- I don't think it's completely fair to compare Six to John because for one thing they are completely different classes of Spartan, so their abilities, strengths and weaknesses are different anyway, before you take into account their individual traits. Another difference is that Six fought mostly Innies for much of his career, only coming up against Covies relatively late on. Meanwhile the Master Chief fought both Rebels and Covenant for long periods of time. Not to mention that John has also battled extensively with the Flood and Sentinels, neither of which Six has ever encountered. So for all we know, if he had lived longer Six could have turned out utterly hopeless in combat against those particular enemies. Also, I just want to point out, technically Jorge-052 destroyed the LNOS, not Six. 06fitzjam 17:02, 26 February 2012 (EST)
- Unyielding Hierophant was destroyed by Cortana when she overloaded its 512 reactors by copying herself and overloading its systems, so if anything the credit goes to Cortana. Okay, we'll forget the Hyper-Lethal quote for now. But you still seem to be ignoring the fact that while Master Chief struggled with the Insurrectionists, being captured by them several times, Noble Six destroyed entire resistance groups by himself. And if you ask me 10 years is also plenty of time to make a name for himself. Obviously Cortana chose him to be her courier for a reason, he's the only other SPARTAN to have been chosen for such a task, she wouldn't have chosen him for no good reason, obviously there was a reason for him being chosen to be her courier, and it was because she knew he was the only one who could do it. Why? Because he is an exceptional SPARTAN. I don't dislike John-117, I actually like him better than Six - but he deserves more credit than he gets, he accomplished amazing feats that often go unrecognized simply because he was outlived by John-117. And even if he has more confirmed kills, which I doubt, it doesn't weigh in on any other fact than John-117 has been in combat longer, and had more opportunity to accumulate such kills, it doesn't mean he's better. The only way to gauge this would be if they directly competed against one another in some sort of exercise. And having not been in battle as long as John-117 would even further lean in favor of Noble Six due to John-117 having more "scars" and health problems due to such prolonged exposure to battle. He may be a SPARTAN but 27 years of straight combat would take its toll, much less so than 10. --Kluutak 17:48, 16 February 2012 (EST)
- Except canonically the infantry at the end of the game is not unlimited because Six eventually dies. Plus Six was only active since the 2540's. Also are you forgetting the Unyielding Hierophant and the estimated 500 ship fleet that was nearly wiped out by John-117 and his team in First Strike? Plus it's more than possible that John destroyed many other Covenant ships during his time of service. In 28 years of warfare John is going to have a way higher body count than anyone who has been in service for 10 years or less. Why are you using hyper-lethal as an example when I recall that you yourself removed that quote from a page because you thought it was non-canon?--Spartacus Talk • Contribs
- Whoa whoa whoa there! Are we forgetting Long Night of Solace? That Ket-pattern battlecruiser he destroyed? What about the last level Lone Wolf where there is an unlimited amount of infantry that can be fought? Not to mention he has single-handedly made entire militia groups "disappear". Having broken entire insurrectionist organizations makes up for a massive body count in and of itself. Noble Six was regarded more as a hyper-lethal vector, than a Soldier. I don't recall Master Chief or any of the other SPARTAN-IIs being considered hyper-lethal. The assertion that Fall of Reach was his only engagement with the Covenant is pure absurdity considering how well he deals with them in combat, not to mention how expertly he is able to use Covenant weaponry in campaign. In my personal opinion the only other UNSC individual to compare to Noble Six is Preston Cole and Danforth Whitcomb to an extent. I'd say that Cole, Whitcomb, and Six are the "big three" of the UNSC as far as massive body counts go. --Kluutak 17:25, 16 February 2012 (EST)
- Like when he blew up the Assault Carrier at the Battle of Earth. That's certainly bigger than a Ket-pattern ship.
- Honestly, though, kill-count is not equal to skill. Kill count by taking down ships is largely the result of opportunity. Any human, even an unaugmented one, could have piloted the Onager and shot down the cruiser. Does that make them more skilled than Six? No, they were just at the right place at the right time. However, it did take skill for Six to fight his way through the Zealots to reach the Onager in the first place, something that would have been very difficult, near impossible for unshielded Marines. So one can't weigh skill by how many people they've killed. One has to weigh how much effort it took them. Tuckerscreator(stalk) 19:40, 27 February 2012 (EST)
- Agreed wholeheartedly, and something that would reinforce this point would be something I brought up earlier in the discussion, due to having not been in battle as long as John-117 would even further lean in favor of Noble Six due to John-117 having more "scars" and health problems due to such prolonged exposure to battle. He may be a SPARTAN but 27 years of straight combat would take its toll, much less so than 10. --Kluutak 10:16, 28 February 2012 (EST)
- Honestly, though, kill-count is not equal to skill. Kill count by taking down ships is largely the result of opportunity. Any human, even an unaugmented one, could have piloted the Onager and shot down the cruiser. Does that make them more skilled than Six? No, they were just at the right place at the right time. However, it did take skill for Six to fight his way through the Zealots to reach the Onager in the first place, something that would have been very difficult, near impossible for unshielded Marines. So one can't weigh skill by how many people they've killed. One has to weigh how much effort it took them. Tuckerscreator(stalk) 19:40, 27 February 2012 (EST)
I whole heartily agree with Tuckerscreator. this should be about effort not strict kill count, and in my mind fighting Flood and Sentinels seems like a lot of effort.Weeping Angel 22:05, 7 March 2012 (EST)
- Also note that John has never shown any of these asserted health problems. Within his last year of the war he fought whole swarms of the Covenant and Flood. From Bungie's treatment, it seems the two were meant to be equals in ability. Tuckerscreator(stalk) 22:26, 7 March 2012 (EST)
In the immortal words of Gimli: "That still only counts as one!"
In my mind, the Chief and Noble Six are equals, if not in experience then in ability, drive, and characterisation. They're both strong-silent types, both "hyperlethal", and both wearied by what they've seen. Being a SPARTAN-III can't be easy, even if they were reassigned before their whole company was slaughtered. Ultimately, though, comparing the two is pointless - it's not a simple matter of time or kill count, it's a matter of essence - if Bungie had decided the Chief did fight on Reach, they could have inserted him into the final game seamlessly without changing anything except the very end. Six is the Chief. I see it as a nice "what if" tale - what if the Chief really had fought on Reach? And this, I tell myself, is what it would have been like for him. Instead of taking the space station assignment, he went down to the surface on the Pelican. Instead of securing the MAC, he got on the Pelican. Instead of being the Lone Spartan as we've always seen him, he's part of a team that he sees fall around him. The whole thing is a metaphor for the Chief's emotional regard for Reach - he didn't undergo these precise events, but this is still the trauma he feels, the fall of Earth's greatest colony, the death of millions, and the destruction of humanity's last symbol of hope, the Spartans.
What? Reading too much into it? I'm an Arts student, what did you expect? -- Specops306 Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek 04:29, 8 March 2012 (EST)
- Ok in my opinion i think 312 doesn't even compare to 117, 117 has had a legendary life and possibly going to continue that life in the new series but 312 only had a training career and only the battle of reach behind his back but yet he might have more that we dont know of, but this is what f**ks me off about reach is that it went on for a month and they didnt even send in the spartan 2's... odd dont ya think? the only thing that backs up halo reach is the journal that you get with the limited addition halo reach, but here's something funny in the latest book glasslands it states that dr. halsey didn't know anything about the spartan 3's and the 5 she met in ghosts of onyx were the first she's ever met which totally contradicts everything that happened in reach and thats in the first few pages of glasslands but that's my honest opinion SPARTAN-225
The Data Drops explain that the S-IIs weren't sent in until the 30th because they were being kept in the dark. HIGHCOM wanted them to proceed onto Operation: RED FLAG, and they wouldn't have been able to proceed to it if they knew about the Fall. Likewise, Halsey did know about Noble Team, but she didn't know they were Spartan-IIIs, just Spartans not made by her. Glasslands even mentions her meeting Noble Team. Tuckerscreator(stalk) 23:35, 10 March 2012 (EST)