Talk:Paegaas Workshop Spiker

Naming Dispute
I think we should name the article "Brute Spiker" or "Brute Spike Rifle" and have it's technical ONI name, Type-25 Carbine be included within the article as an "also-known". I think that its most common name should be used, for the same reason we do not call the M6D article the Model 6D Pistol article or the SRS99D S2 AM sniper rifle article the Sniper Rifle System 99D S2 Antimaterial Rifle article.

To support this, if you go to Halo3.com the section where it talks about the Brute Spiker designates it as the "Brute Spike Rifle". I think we should call it that then. Justin Time 22:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We usually use the technical and official designation for weapons and equipment like this, because "Spiker" is only the weapon's nickname. -- ED ( talk )(gaming) 04:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

'''Why not just change the name of the article to Type-25 Carbide "Brute Spiker"? '''Thereby citing both the ONI designation AND the common nickname of the weapon. Also, Bungie themselves have repeatedly called this the "Type-25 Carbine 'Brute Spiker'". 70.48.199.159 GuiltySpark

''' Well, I guess I can agree with Justin Time. The Brute Spiker would also be easier to say... But it's not the name of the gun. Hmmm. Well, the Brute Spiker sounds a lot cooler. Plus, that's what Bungie calls it, and what the In-Game charactures call it. I think we should rename it to Brute Spiker! Spartan99 7:15 AM, 14,August 2007

Well I can understand that, but it seems unlikely we will even hear the words "type-25 carbine" in either the Halo 3 game or manual, so I think the article should be called Brute Spike Rifle for the same reason that in the real wikipedia the article on Cats isnt called Felis silvestris catus. Justin Time 20:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with ED, Halopedia is a place for correct names, not nicknames...

Captain  Tony  Talk 8/1/2007

agreed(same with justin time) Spartan-G007 XBL gamertag:SpartanG007

Justin Time, please accustom yourself to halopedia's naming system. It's like that. If we follow your rule, all weapons and vehicles pages will have to be renamed. Maybe even more....--Sp art an- 781  CommCSV 14:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you spartan-007. And no Spartan781, if we were to follow YOUR naming system all the pages would have to be changed. Remember that the Mongoose and Warthog are not official ONI names, and so the Mongoose page would have to be changed to just M247 ULATV, because the designation "Mongoose" is just a nickname. --Justin Time 21:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Type-25 Carbine" I don't believe is the ONI name, although my memory's pretty rusty. ^^ Check out the Bungie.net weekly update. ;-) However, as always, we appreciate your interest, Justin! =] Cheers, RelentlessRecusant  'o the Halopedia Team http://images.wikia.com/rainbowsix/images/7/73/GDI2.jpg TALK • MESSAGE 23:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Whos title are we going by of naming it, the brutes or humans,sure it's called a carbine but it's as big as an MA5 assault rifle.It's kind of strange (but not in a bad way) that the Covenant weapons are almost always bigger if compared to a human version in the same class but that's only because they ment to be used by big aliens.--0nyx Sp1k3r 00:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)BLARG!!!


 * That is true, the Brutes most likely call it the Spike Rifle, I am much more inclined to believe that then the Brutes calling it "type-25 carbine". Not only that, but most humans call it the Spike Rifle or Spiker also. --Justin Time 05:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're going to rename this, then why not do the same to Brute Chopper and Spike Grenade articles?--Sp art an- 781  [[Image:Kill_Frenzy_Medal.gif|30px]] CommCSV 01:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

NOTE:The Type-25 thing is just like the model number of the UNSC weapons. The Carbine part is like the "ICWS" part of the assault rifle. The whole TYPE-25 CARBINE name is the full ONI name. So please, we want COMPLETE names, not common names. Because for example:the common name of the assault rifle is just Assault Rifle. If we rename his article, we might as well take out all the UNSC weapon numbers and designations(like ICWS or MAGNUM). Please, Justin, and all those who think alike, please think it out.The Type-25 Carbine is the name given by BUNGIE.--Sp art an- 781  CommCSV 01:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Spartan781, I hate to say it, but that comparison, is wrong. The 'Type-25' in this weapons name is like the 'MA5C' designation for the Assault Rifle, Carbine, is a weapon type, just like Assault Rifle. ICWS (which stands for 'Integrated Combat Weapon System', is what the weapons is used, or was designed to be, just as the 'AM' in SRS99D S2 AM stands for 'Antimaterial') -- Avalon 08:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

-Spartan-781, Why did you make two seperate notes? Oh well. I would not personally mind changing the Spike Grenade and Chopper article names, but right now I do not feel like getting into them right now since I am already doing a lot of work in a lot of articles.

And I am well aware that type-25 carbine is its ONI/UNSC designation, but since I am not saying to call this article "carbine" or "type-25", that means I am not wagering to call the MA5C Assault Rifle "MA5C" or "Assault Rifle".

No, I am not talking about UNSC naming designations, I am talking about the Brute/common soldier naming designations for their own weapons. --Justin Time 05:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is it called a rifle...when...its like not a rifle.--64.121.58.80 08:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The Type-25 Carbine is what i know the gun as however a disambugation page that redirects to here for Spiker and Spiker rifle would be mighty useful. And as for that message above, a carbine is a shortened rifle (such as the M4A1 is the shortened version of the M16). --Ajax 013 14:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with titling it "The Brute Spiker" or something. And who cares what its real name is if basicly no one uses it in a conversation. This is about wither or not change its name. Ed's idea is great. Also, Spiker is easier for people hew don't focus on a weapon's or a vehicle's real name when its easier to called it by it's nick name to search for. many people go by a gun's nick name. But still it's important to know its true name, but If you merely want to find information on it, it would be easier to use its nickname. --Hydraman 23:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The thing is if somebody searches Spiker or Spiker Rifle, it redirects them to the Type-25 Carbine page anyway. --Ajax 013 07:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it is better to have the name as Type-25 carbine because that is its proper name. Justin Time: I think it sounds more profesional to have it as Type-25 carbine because we should use the full and proper names. Not the nicknames.

Staff Sergeant-G023 Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History<font color="#000000">B Company  15:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should compromise and name the article something like Type-25 Brute "Spiker" Carbine. If we only had proper names as titles the mongoose article would have to only include the M247 ULATV and exclude the "mongoose" nickname. I think this is too vague for someone unfamiliar with the Halo 3.-- EliteSpartan 1:56 August 11 2007

But thats not its proper name thats its UNSC name. We dont call the Master Chief article "Demon", so why should we call a covenant article by its UNSC name, espescially if that UNSC name isnt even commonly used by most members of the UNSC itself? --Justin Time 07:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry justin, but thats incredibly flawed. besides we don't know what the Covenant name for it is. And EliteSpartan, you have failed to take my previous message into account. If you type in spiker rifle or spike rifle and such similar things, it will redirect you to the page do it doesn't matter! --Ajax 013 11:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ajax does have a point, we dont know if "Spiker" is the covenant name. We should probably wait until Halo 3 comes out or it is confirmed that type-25 is the true or just the UNSC name. But if Spiker does turn out to be the covenant name the article should be renamed because that would be its "true" name (see Justins previous post). -- EliteSpartan 2:17 August 12 2007

Here here. I am so confident that the words type 25 carbine wont even be uttered by the UNSC, that I am willing to take that bet. --Justin Time 04:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and here here, I don't think the UNSC would even utter "MA5C ICWS Assault Rifle". They just say "Assault Rifle". Justin, stop being a "noob" around here. No offense though.--<font color="LightGrey">Sp <font color="DarkGray">art <font color="Gray">an- <font color="Black">781  CommCSV 13:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No, probably not the ICWS. But the MA5C and such will be clearly in the game on ammo cartridges, weapon pick ups, maybe some dialogue, and not to mention the UNSC point of view manual. So whats your point? --Justin Time 22:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey its like the human weapons have abreviated names the Covenant Weapons no. please dont try more you are losing.--<font color="Black">Clavix2  <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 22:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Human weapons have abbreviated names, the Covenant Weapons no"? Somewhere out there, an english teacher is weeping... -_-

Losing? Well I can probably guess what grade level of school your in...seriously, reply with an intelligent rebuttal if you are going to dispute something someone else has said.

Anyways, as has been said, we cannot really decide until the game is released, so I suggest we suspend discussion until then, then we will see who is right. --Justin Time 02:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Say me how much people is with you, and I say that human weapons have a technical name like the MA5C but this weapons or the most part of covenant weapons dont have this name, best leave it. --<font color="Black">Clavix2  <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 02:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I trust Bungie more than the instructional manuals, those are always riddled with mistakes. I've only ever seen bungie make one mistake. If Bungie says it's designation is Type-25 Carbine, who is to doubt them? And i think i have said this 2 or 3 times already but the name doesn't matter, as long as they type in one of its names then it will all go to the same page. Liek if you type assault rifle it goes to a disambugation page for Ma2B and MA2C and maybe a few more. Same with battle rifle and sniper. --Ajax 013 03:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Name does matter, because I am sure people would care if we renamed the shotgun "Banana Launcher" and decided it was okay because shotgun redirected to there. Not to mention people searching for the Spiker not by its common name will not recognize "type-25 carbine" as what they are looking for if they come upon a "Articles with references" page.

Also, Halo 3 is going to be more then a manual, its going to feature a huge amount of bonus content sure to contain information about the Spiker. All written by Bungie by the way.

And Bungie is the source of all the info on Halo, and I think it would be more appropriate to call the Spike Rifle what it is called by its own brute users in the game, and the UNSC within the game, and the manual if it says that, then some small unknown designation given to it by Bungie in some obscure online post. For the same reason we call the Major Elite page "Major Elite" rather then "Major Domo".

But lets not get our panties in a bunch, and wait for the game and other information to come out before we decide anything, because we do not have enough info as of now.

P.S., Clavix2, for someone who is editing an english wiki, you sure dont speak good english. --Justin Time 03:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Just leave it is the name its on halo 3 beta, on magazines, etc. And what if im not good at English im from somewhere when people dont talk english, we arent discusing my f*cking english. <font color="Black">Clavix2  <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 03:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I have seen, when you pick it up in the beta it says "spiker" and the magazines have pretty much only called it the spiker or spike rifle. And your english does matter, since this is an english wikipedia. Can we all agree to reserve judgement for release? If you really think youre right it wouldnt matter if the game was released now would it? --Justin Time 03:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh God 1. Please leave my f*ucking english quiet, we are talking about the spiker. 2. If you want to change name just do it then people will talk and ... you know. Really I dont want to fight i want to have friends not enemies. <font color="Black">Clavix2  <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 21:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Justin but do you purposly ignore other peoples points unless you can ridicule them? You do not understand that should somebody type in Spiker of Spike Rifle and hit go, they cme directly to the Tpye-25 Carbine page, which right at the top notes that the weapon is called Spiker and Spike Rifle and has a great big picture of it. And whats the unreleated crap about the shotgun being renamed the bana launcher? Its beside the point. Also the reason why we call the Minor Elite by Minor Elite and not Minor Domo because it has NEVER been called Mior Domo, only the Major Rank was named with a Domo (Major Domo) and even then it was only used once. and as words straight from Bungie's cyber mouths, 'Over the years it has garnered the nicknames “Spike Rifle”, “Spiker”, and “hatchet gun”.' In fact, we don;t know what Brutes call them but all references to it by marines have called it the spike rifle, so if we name it by what the marines do then the page should be renamed to 'Spike Rifle'. Infact, it was only called the spiker is an informal pick up name on the beta. If we are to rename things after they are called from action buttons does that mean the M12 LRV 'warthog' should no longer have its military designation and should be permenantly called by its nickname?

Now, this has gone on long enough and the simple facts are Justin, your wrong because both the community and Bungie disagree with you. The only thing you have in yourr favour is a pick up name used in an unfinished build of the game. And again, like i said, all the nicknames of the Type-25 Carbine link to this page, so should you click on a link under called 'spiker' surprise surprise, you come here. --Ajax 013 21:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I already refuted your redirection point. We need correct names for articles even if they are redirected, because if I typed in brute smg, and got a page which showed articles with mentions of brutes and smgs, no casual gamer would ever know to click on the "type-25 carbine" somewhere near the bottom, they would not know that that is the name of the weapon whos name they forgot.

And you know I meant Major Elite. And that was straight from an official source to, but because it was only mentioned once and not in the core stuff, we call the article "Major Elite" instead of "Major Domo". Same goes for the spiker.

And your warthog example works against you to (besides the obvious differences like being mentioned in more then one place, being in the manual, etc.), after all you would not remove the word "warthog" from our Warthog article because it is just a nickname right?

I think it is pretty damned fair that if the whole of Halo 3 does not call it the type-25 carbine, including its manual and stuff, then we should call it "Spike Rifle" with mention of its official designation in the article. After all, we did the exact same thing for "Major Elite", for the same reasons, didnt we? --Justin Time 23:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think if somebody typed Brute SMG into search and it came up spiker, they still wouldn't know what the hell was going on. Besides, thats why we have search, so you can look at different articles that are found in a search. And how is a casual gamer going to know about the spiker? A majority of halo fans didn't even play on the Beta, so there only sources of information would be the web, like here, or bungie (where surprise surprise, it was called the Type-25 Carbine :D). Now seeing as the Type-25 Carbine name has been set in internet stone by Bungie staff and its the official system here to name everything by their OFFICIAL designation, not an informal nickname. Now i think your a good editor but you need to get your facts worked out and get accustomed to the inclusionist rule on here. Basically we include every little morsel of Halo knowledge and trivia, usually to its own page, such as the MA5 series assault rifles, the BR55 series, the sniper rifle series of weapons (never can remeber it's name). And also, if its full, proper designation, is spoke of in a concrete source, then it is used. In this case, the Type-25 Carbine. --Ajax 013 01:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If they put brute smg into the search, and they saw Spiker, it is more likely to jog their memory since they see that word every time they pick it up in the game, then type-25 carbine is.

You are right in there being few sources of information, that is why I have proposed to suspend judgement until after release, which since you also agree on the lack of information I do not see why you should disagree on that. It stays "type-25 carbine" until release, and if you are confident you are right, the release and playing of the game for a while should not change anyones opinions.

The type-25 is an official designation, just like Major Domo is. I think as a general rule vague EU naming should take a backseat to the other name if the other name is used in practically all other sources, espescially if there is a chance that the other name is what the Covenant actually call it.

Wouldnt you agree that if the game came out and the Covenant actually called it that, it should be changed to their naming for their weapon? Thats why we should wait judgement for more information.

And I know we include all details about a thing in its page, that is why I have joined wikipedia. However, type-25 carbine is no more the proper or inclusionist name of the weapon then M12 LRV is the full and proper name of the Warthog article. Also, this Wiki has tended to make the names of the articles more accessible to the casual Halo gamer then the hardcore gamer who is one of the few that remembers the odd EU designation Bungie gave it. That is why Major Elite is not "Major Domo", that is why the nicknames for human vehicles appear in their names (warthog, mongoose, scorpion), and that is why the Covenant pages have their common names first, and their official EU designated names in parenthesis (for example: Elites (Sangheilli)).

As I am sure we can agree, there is no point going back and forth over the same things and "it could be possible"s, so lets leave it how it is for now and wait for release to give us the maximum possible information to make a decision. --Justin Time 01:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Ajax. Besides if we did rename this article the Spiker then we would have to reanem the M90 Shotgun page as the Shotgun, or the SR999C S2 AM Sniper Rifle page as the Sniper Rifle ect. Justin, please recognize that halopedia is meant for the technical names, not the nicknames.

--<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23 <font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History<font color="#000000">B Company  01:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Justin Time, as far as I can tell, you want to go by the ONI name, but the thing that you have to realize is that Halopedia is not UNSC-centered, so we have to go by the official name. Kay? -- NOTASTAFF  GPT ( talk )( eating ) 01:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No, the M90 shotgun would still be the M90 shotgun, because that is its full and official name as stated by the game, the manual, and all EU sources.

Guesty, you are wrong. I am against the ONI name, and for the non-UNSC centered name, so you should actually be agreeing with me...--Justin Time 01:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Gah, I'm sick and exhausted, cut me a little slack please... I thought "Type-25 Carbine" was the Covenant name or sumfink and you wanted to go by the nickname. Well, anyway, what I mean is that, while it's best to go by it's name according to those affiliated wif it, if we can't, nickname should be our LAST option, so "Type-25 Carbine" is still bettar than "Brute Spiker," IMO. Maybeh. Gah, I'll figure it out once I'm bettar... =S -- NOTASTAFF  GPT ( talk )( eating ) 01:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, GPT forgot to mention, he's an admin with the last say in the matter ;]. --Ajax 013 01:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but he doesnt seem very decisive right now. GPT, youd agree that if it was called "Brute Spiker" or "Brute Spike Rifle" in the Halo 3 manual, extra content, game scripting, marines, Brutes themselves, and other Covenant in Halo 3, that the article should be called Brute Spike Rifle or Brute Spiker and "type-25 carbine" should be listed as another name for it in the article since it would have only one obscure internet post from the UNSC point of view calling it that right? --Justin Time 01:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Jesus, this has been going on MUCH too long, everyone is practically against you and Bungie calls it the Type-25 Carbine and that's all there is f***** to it ChurchReborn 01:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Now now CR no need to yell at the guy.

--<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23 <font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History<font color="#000000">B Company  01:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Plenty of people have been on my side, they just have not been actively posting like my opposers do. Bungie also calls Major Elites "Major Domos", Warthog is just a nickname for the M12 LRV, and Elites are just a nickname for "Sangheili".

Articles are named for clarity to non-experts, that is why animal articles in Wikipedia are not named by their latin names, like the article on Cats is not called Felis silvestrus catus. So therefore, I think itd be fair to name this article "Brute Spike Rifle" if Halo 3 comes out and no new references to it being called "type-25 carbine" exist. --Justin Time 01:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well Justin there are plenty of reasons why we don't name stuff like that.


 * This is not Wikipedia, so why bring up that?


 * The reason why wikipedia calls animals by their english name is because Latin is technically a dead language.


 * this would cause a massive renaming of articles just to make it easier for fans who do not kow the full name Eg: Renaming the W/AV Model 6 Grindell/Galileian Nonlinear Rifle article the Spartan laser article.

Please just stop with this useless arguement. We are keeping the name as Type-25 Carbine unless Bungie suddenly announces that they will rename it the Spike carbine so please just stop. You are starting to get a lot of users pissed off.

I bid ya all a good night!--<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23 <font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History<font color="#000000">B Company  02:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a Wiki, Latin is the official language for animal names, and I do not doubt that the Spartan Laser's full name will be in the manual or in the extra game content. I do not care how many users I get mad, I am not here for popularity.

And following your logic, please remove the useless nicknames "warthog", and "elites" out of their respective article titles. Like I have been saying, if "type-25 carbine" is only mentioned in that one UNSC point of view Bungie post, and in the actual game and all other aspects it is called the Brute Spiker, then that would be the more correct name anyways.

--Justin Time 02:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

But however bungie.net states that it is called the Type-25 Carbine so techinically the game would not be right. If we rename all of the article to make it "Easier" for people then we would lose the one thing that makes us truly a wiki: An encyclopedic information format. The names must be the technical and real names. Not the nicknames. The only reason why the elite part is in the article is because the humans call them elites and the covenant call them Sangheili. The warthog's name is in its article because Bungie.net calls ot the warthog. Catching on?

--<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23 <font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History<font color="#000000">B Company  02:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

And everything calls it the Spiker. And that Bungie.net article was in a UNSC military report point of view, so it can easily have a different name among the Covenant, or just be translated into "Spike Rifle" from the covenant language. --Justin Time 02:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey justin too many people say to leave the type 25, more than the people than say Spike Rifle. I think that you need to leave it this is an Encyclopedical page (Sorry if I said that uncorrectly), I know that allmost all people will call it Spiker when playing, but this is the official name, is like dont calling BR55 and call it Battle Rifle. <font color="Black">Clavix2  <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 02:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

For all of you that think Justin is completely wrong consider this; Type-25 carbine is the Human name for the gun. The UNSC probably has a name for every covenant weapon. for example the plasma rifle might be called something like Type-43 high temperature non-reloadable/rechargeable direct energy blaster rifle. Would you prefer this to the simple and correct Covenant name of "Plasma Rifle". Im all for having corect names but I like justin don't think type-25 carbine is the correct name because it is a human name for a covanent weapon. I suggest waiting until bungie releases the covenant name for that will be the true name. And for everyone who saying that renaming the article will require renaming many other articles you are wrong. if we rename every covenant weapon with a human name that would take longer. --EliteSpartan 9:52 PM August 14 2007

Yes, I agree. This page is reaching maximum capacity, lets please suspend talk until the game comes out. Its fine for now if the article stays "type-25 carbine", we can pick up discussion later if I am right when the game comes out. And if every character in the game refers to it as the type-25 carbine, well ill eat a boot on youtube. --Justin Time 02:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Justin, you might as well go and eat a boot. the Type-25 Carbine is the full name of the spiker, confirmed beyond reasonable doubt. Halo3.com's info is outdated. So by calling the spiker "Type-25 Carbine", it's like calling the smg "M7/Caseless Sub Machine Gun", which is it's full name. If you call this weapon "spiker", then it's the same as calling the smg "SMG" just like that. Please close the vote. Were getting sick of this ongoing dispute.--<font color="LightGrey">Sp <font color="DarkGray">art <font color="Gray">an- <font color="Black">781  CommCSV 14:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why you keep going on about 'What the covenant call the weapon' mainly because Covenant names are never referred to for the weapons, for all we know the plasma rifle could be the 'holy toastalator'. I'll not lie, Halopedia is mostly from a human perspective because its mostly human information that is released because te Halo games are from the human's perspective (and don't bother using the Arbiter levels as an excuse). In fact, we know nothing of what Covenant equipment is called by the Covenant, so stop using that excuse. --Ajax 013 14:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I have heard the Covenant call their weapons by their names on rare occasions in the book, and the book calls the weapons by the same names when the narrator takes on a covenant point of view and calls other things by the Covenant name (like sangheili). --Justin Time 22:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey its the full name for the weapon. Type 25 carbine is the name the other is a nickname. <font color="Black">Clavix2  <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 00:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yell? I'm not yelling yet, now if i was yelling it'd be much much worse. Then what's up with this argument, who cares if your not a seasoned Halo player, if you want to know what it is and see Type-25 Carbine click it, read it, and then you'll find out what it is. ChurchReborn 02:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Justin but i think everybody here is dead set on keeping it type-25 carbine. At least you and me can take pleasure in the fact that when the game comes out everybody including the people here will refer to this weapon as the "Spiker". say what you will about type-25 being the "full" name (don't you mean official?) but theres no way your going to say type-25 during multiplayer. --EliteSpartan 10:23 PM August 16 2007

Well thats why we hold off discussion until the game comes out, so they can all see that "type-25 carbine" is as article name worthy as "Major Domo" is. --Justin Time 04:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Remember people, this is an information website, names the like the "sword" ,the "battle rifle" ,the "shotgun" are all multiplayer terms just like the name the "spiker".Their full names are the most informative.But then again there really is no right way to name it.--0nyx Sp1k3r 14:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)BLARGH!!!

Images
I see no reason to keep the bigger image when we already have an up-close shot of the gun. It seems to me that all guns are dual-wielded the same. BTW, sorry for the typos in my earlier summary. --Dragonclaws 04:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think, that if it's going to be one shot or the other, that the one of the Spartan dual-weilding should be kept, as the spikers are much more visible in it.


 * Note that when I posted that comment, the article was in a different state. The image I was refering to was a poor magazine scan. I now believe the images are okay. --Dragonclaws 22:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont tink theres much need 4 that video, i have a better 1 here


 * It says there that it's for a modded map. That means it's not canon, isn't official, and shouldn't be used here. I know your intention is good, but I just don't think that's a good example. However, the video link does need updating, because that video is no longer there.  guesty - persony - thingy  21:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

No, if you click "here" it goes you to you tube.The video with the modded thing is "CMT's Spike Rifle".-Spartan-007

To me, the weapon looks a bit unstable. If someone were to dual weild a pair, the bayonets would weigh down the front of the weapon (unless made of a super-light alloy), making it very hard to hold.-- Caboose   Orange Juice  and  Cookies  04:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It could be a super light alloy because the covenant have a whole arsenel of unknown alloy so you never know--The Chazz025 and Clan [Razu'Kuzumee] 04:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Tungsten is actually a very heavy alloy, and the weapon itself is described as being so heavy it can only really be wielded by someone with prodigous strength, i.e. a Spartan or a Brute. (Note Bungie's commentary on it) -Anon

No, marines have been shown to be able to use them to, based on those field reports. I think it takes great strength to dual wield them for long periods of time, strength like really strong humans, Spartans, and Brutes have. Justin Time 22:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Counterpart: Shotgun???
I don't understand why the shotgun is listed as the spikers counterpart. According to the bungie article the counterpart to the spiker is the SMG. The shotgun and spiker dont even function remotely similar, their only resemblance being that the spiker resembles a cut down shotgun <font color="Q2Q2Q2">sha <font color="#545454">dow <font color="#848484">in <font color="#999999">the <font color="#A3A3A3">pri <font color="D6D6D6">sm 21:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Reference should be removed. -ED 22:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Halo 2 pistol
What do you mean the spikers are as useful as the halo 2 pistol?

firearm type

How come it is a carbine if it is automatic because a carbine is a semiautomatic rifle.--0nyx Sp1k3r 20:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

-Generally, a carbine refers to a 'short rifle', regardless of it's fire mode. e.g., the M4 carbine fires semiauto or 3 shot burst

sorry .I read on that on another site, I guess not everything read is true.--0nyx Sp1k3r 19:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)BLARG!

when did jackals
in any novels it does not say that jackals wielded the spiker.Halonerd

Yeah, were did all this illegal side arm stuff come from? --Climax Viod 12:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Read the Bungie feature on it. -The Dark Lord Azathoth 15:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Which Bungie feature? Links and a quote please? --Justin Time 07:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Search for it. I've got 56k, bungie.net takes forever to load. -The Dark Lord Azathoth 22:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Metal Spikes?
Where did the information come from that the spikes were metal?Sorry it's just that I have a theory that would make little more sense then metal spikes.I think the spikes come from some kind plant or animal from the brute home world as come from a natural resource and they use them as weaponry (like how south american naitives used the venom from poisonous frogs for blow darts).Nobody would think of it unless it was inspired or discovered.Besides isn't strange they would manufacture metal spikes?--0nyx Sp1k3r 19:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)BLARG!!!!

yeah... not just metal spikes... HEATED metal spikes! rar. --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 02:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

seems to be made of the same material as spike grenade casings. presumably metal.

TWO FOOT LONG SPIKESAND FORTY TO A MAGAZINE?1
I'm sorry buit exactly how large is the spiker? I mean it fires tweo foot long spikes!! How could its magazine even hold forty of them!!

Well alien weapons are larger than human weapons, the brutes are bigger than human ,to them its like an automatic pistol but compared to our guns it could be called a rifle and because most things look larger in real life than measured in fiction and or maby'e because the spikes are really thin so even though they're long, they could have more room in then gun.--0nyx Sp1k3r 14:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)BLARG!!!

What? Two foot long spikes? That does seem right at all. Perhaps the information is wrong or the ammunition expands somehow when coming out of the gun. Justin Time 22:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I tried to make a spiker model, it was bigger than my arm!!! 81.7 cm length, I doubt it! A plasma rifle is only 66 cm. The spiker looks small on the halo 3 beta, like a plasma pistol. Is it really this long? Grunty friends! 09:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Good question. This is probably just exaggeration on EGM's part. The Spiker's magazine is, at best, only about 6 inches long, based on its size in proportion to the entire weapon. They do look a bit longer than that when stuck in an enemy, but that's likely just to make them visible in gameplay. OTOH, perhaps the process that heats the spikes up allows them to be stretched by some other mechanism. Who knows? Perhaps Bungie will release some more information about the weapon in the future. Perhaps not. Rtas Vadumee 08:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This idea just came to me. What if the spikes were small rods of metal and as they got launched out they got heated and lengthened? Traveling thru the air would cool them down enough to become solid again and the air would shape it into a toothpick-shaped bullet. When you think about it, it makes sense it a strange kinda way cause when the spike comes out its yellow then it goes to a redish colour as if its cooling off.<font color="GREEN">Gagaw117 10:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Gagaw117 may be correct. If I'm not mistaken, the article both here and from Bungie about the Spike Grenade has an interesting quote;

“The casing is constructed of an unusual porous metallic compound. Shrapnel from the Spike Grenade reaches a temperature of approximately 270 to 315ºC, around 530ºF, and retains that heat for upwards of seven seconds, by design.”

We also know the Spike Grenade's casing and the Spiker's ammunition are the same material, so perhaps the porous nature of the metallic compound is the reason the spikes seem so lage when fired. Since heat causes things to expand, than it would make sense that the super-heated spikes lengthen as they cool etc., just as Gagaw117 suggests. Besides, given the material's properties, it is probably pyrophoric, or ignites when coming into contact with air and moisture.

The rest of the mystery about the Spiker is what superheats the metal in the first place? We know that it is based on their pre-covenant technology, and given how they were a Tier 3-4 civilization, they clearly had a good understanding of ballistics. Their firearms were probably chemically propelled, mechanical designs like Human weapons, though the Brute's application of it seems different, for they seem to have used reactive and pyrophoric materials in addition to normal ballistics.

They must have added in Covenant tech when they joined, for the Spiker and other weapons have lights on them, and the Spiker started humming when picked up as though it needed to be activated before being fired, as seen in the video "enemy weapon" from the "Believe" ad campaign.

The comments from the marines in the Spiker articles mention the process of charging the chamber, cycling the bolt, and seating a magazine as well as pulling the trigger. Another article or two I remember reading mentions something about plasma technology being applied to Brute weaponry, and they cited the Spiker as an example.

So in all, the Spiker is probably a hybrid design, using traditional mechanical applications in conjunction with Covenant electronics and plasma technology that would take the place of chemical propellants, making it a caseless firearm as well.

Speaking of which, when the Spiker fires, in addition to the propelling gases, there are also sparks flying out the side of the weapon, but no expending of ammunition cases.

So the Spiker is coincidentally similar to the SMG in its apparent lack of traditional casings. Interesting.

--Exalted Obliteration 01:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe somehow the spikes are really small i nthe gun, but expand when shot. Bioniclepluslotr 01:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as size, Brute small arms are the size of human support weapons simply because Brutes are larger and stronger. Just as Elites can hold heavy weapons (high powered explosives) in one hand, Brutes can hold 15-pound weapons with ease. My theory of the means of firing is that the Spiker is a hand-held railgun. The electric current (1) interacts with the magnetic field to propel the spikes with a force of 171 N (a bit large for a handheld railgun, but close to practical) and (2) superheats the spikes through electrical resistance. Barbaric stuff. Jora 'Mantak (formerly Jora 'Mantakree) - Talk  00:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that the spiker simply holds a magazine of short, thick spikes, and the elongate because they pass through a superheated area,only briefly however, and they then expand due to speed, and burn and impale the victims. And to top that of, they have those beautiful blades on the bottom L33tmcphee 19:11, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Official Naming Poll
Dear Halopedians, please vote for the name of this article below: Type-25 Carbine (ONI designation) or Spiker or Spike Rifle (colloquial designation). Please state a reason to support your opinion. =] Cheers, RelentlessRecusant  'o the Halopedia Team http://images.wikia.com/rainbowsix/images/7/73/GDI2.jpg <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">MESSAGE 21:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Type-25 Carbine
Wiki standards dictate the use of technical names. To make this article similar to others for a coherent wiki, this must be named "Type-25 Carbine."
 * 1) Support - As per Halopedia naming policy. Cheers, RelentlessRecusant  'o the Halopedia Team http://images.wikia.com/rainbowsix/images/7/73/GDI2.jpg <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">MESSAGE 21:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Strongly Support We use formal designations here, because we want our wiki to be da best! (or not to SOME people). Thanks to RR for permission for this vote. ;D --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 21:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Strong Support - As per Halopedia rules, Type-25 Carbine came straight for the Horses Mouth. --Ajax 013 21:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Strong Support - This is a place for facts, not nicknames.[[Image:UNSCoH_Dingo_without_letters.PNG|30px]] Colonel  Tony  Talk 8/17/2007
 * 5) Strong Support -This is the real name the other is a nickname and this is an encyclopedical page not for nicks. --<font color="Black">Clavix2 [[Image:Halo2emblem.ashx.jpeg|30px]] <font color="Red">TALK TO ME <font color="Black">Things I done 00:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Support till the end -- as stated above, this place is for the actual name, not the nickname. If it was for the nicknames, we would have SPNKR instead of M19 SSM Rocket Launcher. We just need Spike Rifle and Spiker redirecting here.
 * 7) Strong Support: Its the official designation. Why did Justin Time delete my super-cool poll? =( [[Image:Marine Corp SSGT.JPG|30px]] SSgt. simon  rj  h [[Image:rjh.jpg|30px]] 09:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) Strong Support We must honour our ancestors and keep the name as the Type-25 carbine!!--<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23 <font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History[[Image:Master sergeant.jpg|20px]]<font color="#000000">B Company  00:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) Strong support Wiki standards include the use of formal names if im not mistaken. So as Wiki users we have an obligation to use formal names were appropriate

Spiker or Spike Rifle

 * 1) Support - Although I realize you guys prefer technical names I think Spike Rife is more appropriate. almost every other covenant names follow the same formula of (type of projectile fired) + ( size or type of weapon). Some examples of this are the Plasma Pistol, Plasma Rifle, Fuel Rod Cannon, and Beam Rifle. Spike Rifle is also given by The horses mouth (See Halo 3 Manual) so its no less official. --EliteSpartan 6:29PM August 17, 2007
 * Its not that we prefer technical names, its that using technical names for weapons is a rule on the site. The other Covenant weapons use their nicknames because we do not know their designated names. Also, if it is one, official source, such as a novel, Bunie.net, game manuals, game guides and msot obviously, the game, we use that information. Even if a designation is mentioned only in one source. --Ajax 013 23:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That is the case with the other weapons, but the page names are the technical names. To be consistent, and to follow the rules, the name must stay.  Jora 'Mantak  (formerly Jora 'Mantakree) - Talk  00:54, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you guys really want to stick with type-25 carbine thats fine by me. but this is a poll and I wouldn't have voted for Spiker if I didn't think it was for the good of halopedia. --EliteSpartan 7:21 PM August 17, 2007

Matoro3311 18:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Support - Name is easy to remember.


 * 1) Support - Why the hell are we even voting before the game even comes out...for all we know the blasted thing could be called the type-47 fairy duster when the game comes out. I do not take this voting process as set as stone, but since we are voting now anyways I might as well support.

--Justin Time 03:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments
This is being used instead of the tag because while that can be foiled by sockpuppet accounts, an actual text vote can't. =] Cheers,  RelentlessRecusant  'o the Halopedia Team http://images.wikia.com/rainbowsix/images/7/73/GDI2.jpg <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">MESSAGE 21:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * AND ip address --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 21:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh OK, that makes sense. Thank you! [[Image:Marine Corp SSGT.JPG|30px]] SSgt. simon  rj  h [[Image:rjh.jpg|30px]] 09:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW, for the people who say, "People are so stupid... they should call the Type-25 Carbine a Spiker!" Well, we DO call it a (Brute) Spiker... but it's the article we want named Type-25. --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 01:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought we agreed to leave it "type-25" until the game comes out, and then have a vote if it is called for.

--Justin Time 22:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps all 'confusing' weapon articles should be titled: "True Name (Slang/common name)" ie: "Type-25 Carbine (Brute Spiker)". Nice idea. simple but problem solving.

Well...
The article is now named Type-25 Carbine, I suppose... --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 01:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The game hasnt come out yet, voting on something as important as the name for all time is a pretty dumb idea in my opinion if the game hasnt come out. I think all this shows is what we already knew: Its fine for it to be called type-25 for now, based on what information we do have. But id have to say that youd have to be extremely stubborn or joking to say that this vote shows its name for all time when we have only been revealed a fraction of the information on it.

--Justin Time 18:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with me pal Blemo. He is almost as powahfull as RR. Don't doubt him :P

--<font color="#000000">Master Sergeant G-23 <font color="#FF0000">Comm Channel <font color=#000000>Mission History<font color="#000000">B Company  00:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Powerful as RR? I'm flattered, but he's an admin and I am not. --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 02:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Great this place is like an online high school... --Justin Time 22:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Huh? How is it an online high school? --<font color="#D3D3D3">B <font color="#A9A9A9">le <font color="#808080">mo http://www.wikia.com/skins/common/progress-wheel.gif <font color="#A9A9A9">TALK • <font color="A9A9A9">CONTRIBUTIONS 02:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Marathon
The spiker looks a lot like the dual-wieldable shotgun from the marathon games. should there be an influences section?

The Mauler is the Dual-wieldable shotgun not the spiker --Pileyourbodies 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

ya, but they look really similar. it even has the rail for spinning it around your hand.

Enemy Weapons video
Should mention somehow in the article that
 * even though the Brutes used it as a handgun, the weapon is pretty weighty
 * when activated, the gun hums audibly with a deep, low thrum

JAF1970 06:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Woah, woah, slow down.
Why did we remove these UNSC comments? The fact of the matter is they come straight from Bungie's article, and more the point, they provide a very good point of view for the Marines as well as padding for the story, making it seem a bit more real. If bungie.net eventually removes those pages, we'll lose these quotes, and since they're official material....why not keep them? InnerRayg 18:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, they're in Bungie ' s article, but they're not very encyclopedic on their own. Useful information has already been incorporated into the main body, so they kind of sit there on their own not fitting in with the rest. It makes it seem more real, yes, but this article is about the carbine, not an attempt to make it seem real. And Archive.org is sure to record those pages, so they won't be lost. --<font color="#000000">Dragon<font color="#FF0000">c laws (<font color="#000000">talk ) 18:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Spikers true Range
Added info about the range of the Spiker. The Spikes can go from one base of Sandtrap to the other. Just wanted to note that.

Spiker images & Video
Hi, I'm doing a video demonstrating the Spiker. I'm looking for more clips, especially ones showing the spiker's range and firepower. So, if you have this kind of clips you are welcome to upload them and edit them to the rough cut. Thx JonaR 12:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Now the feature's back up so I added a cool clip TonyParker 07:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible Explanation for the Spikes
I just came across some interesting articles while browsing on the internet.

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2008/04/science-fiction-inspires-darpa-weapon.html

http://www.darpa.mil/TTO/programs/mahem.htm

This new weapon technology describes a controlled application for the metal jets in HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) weapons. Unlike the swift and largely unstable molten metal jets in those explosive weapons, this would accelerate a stream of molten metal, or perhaps most interestingly, a slug of metal that forges itself inflight into an aerodynamic, sharpened projectile.

Also, here is another link that describes what is known as a Explosively Formed Penetrator (EFP):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_Formed_Penetrator

Judging from what we see in Jiralhanae weapons technology, especially for their prediliction for powerful weapons, explosives, metallurgy, and volatile substances, I'd think that their techniques are related to EFP and HEAT technology combined with the MHD technology describecd in the DARPA link.

That said, the Spiker is probably an MHD driven weapon that uses and accelerates porous metallic projectiles that are superheated in the process. As these projectiles travel through the weapon and the air, they self-forge themselves into aerodynamic shapes. In this case, it would be the elongated glowing spikes that we see.

Another clue to the possibility that the Spiker fires self-forging projectiles is the ammo display itself. If the projectiles were already spikes, then they would likely be shown to be similar to the needles or rods seen in the Needler's and Carbine's ammo displays.

But in the Spiker's case, they are shown as being the same shap as the bullet displays in the SMG, AR, and BR.

So while the spikes seemingly being larger than the weapon's magazine is partly dramatic effect, relatively large slugs of metal being superheated and forging themselves into elongated spikes and cooling down would match what we see. Though the spikes look large in-game, they are not wider than the weapon's individual barrels.

This dramatic effect of projectiles being larger than the firing weapon is also shared with the needler as well, but in the case of the Spiker, the dramatic effect would match the weapon's functioning.

--Exalted Obliteration 04:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Extrusion
After some thought about the Type-25's projectiles, I considered a more likely mechanism than the "self-forging projectile" idea I put forward before. After talking about metal forging and the nature of the Type-25 with a friend, they suggested that perhaps there was some sort of extrusion mechanism involved.

For those who don't know what extrusion is, it is used in a variety of ways, from creating metal rods, strips of plastic, candy, or perhaps quite familiarly, toothpaste coming of the tube, it all involves a common process. An amount of soft and flexible material, such as superheated metal, is placed into a cavity with a compression component behind it. In front of it, the cavity is shaped and has a hole where the material will exit.

When it is compressed in the forward direction, the material is forced through the opening or die as it is called, and takes on a thinner, elongated shaped.

For a better description, here is the excellent article on Wikipedia:



As for the Type-25, I would imagine that the weapon is both mechanically operated like a Human/UNSC weapon is, as text from the Bungie article mentions, but augmented by battery technology, in this case Covenant tech. As the projectile is put into the firing chamber, heated, and expanded, there is a die that forces the heated material into an elongated 'spike' as it leaves the weapon. As for the spike's length, think of how toothpaste or glue becomes so long if you press for too long.

That could help explain how the spikes are as long as the length of the magazine to the tip of the barrels or more; the heated ammunition is traveling forward and quickly through the weapon's internal die that it elongates so dramatically, but still moves a good distance down-range.

--Exalted Obliteration 02:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems logical, but unless you have a source it wont do.:( A figment of your imagination and then some! Commander Grade One.png ( Holonet ) 02:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Definitely. There is no source for this, so yes, it will not do. My apologies. I will place it in a blog instead, rather than in this talk page. This is a place for technical matters for this article, not a conversation page.

Again, I apologize.

--Exalted Obliteration 02:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Halo Reach Confirmations?
I think that the Spiker may make a comeback in Halo: Reach. Take a look at the top left of the image at the url: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X1IWXuEbgXI/S1arXxeAwII/AAAAAAAACAc/NSaTJgKS7Uo/s1600/halo+skirmishers+screen+shot+reach.jpg (Sorry, but I can't figure out how to place any images on this. Otherwise I'd show it here). Those little orange streaks look alot like Spiker rounds. Those Spiker look-alikes, and the fact that the Grav Hammer is on the Beta level, Powerhouse, tell me that the Brutes and several of their weapons are going to be included. Should this be added? Or should we wait until there's more info? Frogger1093 01:08, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

You have a good eye! But that may be anything from a Spiker needle to early glint from the sun(I say early because that's what glint might look like from early in the alpha build)!Thank you taking time to listen to my post! 19:29, May 23, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!