Talk:Proto-Gravemind

Does anyone have a picture of the ones that pilot pelicans in Halo 2?--prophit of war 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Brain Forms can't fly.

Two articles?
There are 2 articles regarding the Brain Form/Proto-Gravemind, Brain Form and Proto-Gravemind. Since searching "Brain Form" will get the "Proto-Gravemind", so I have conveniently placed the link here: http://www.halopedian.com/Brain_Form. Pressing the Discussion of that page will lead to here. S331 06:42, 19 January 2011 (EST)

Brain ability to control technology
I son't think the brain forms really have complete control over the technology they use. This is from the fact that they dont land, they just fly at full speed until they crash into something. Anyone have other theories for this?

I think the fact that the flood are mentally retarded in more than one way might help in that. But is it possible that the flood can "control" technology in the same way they do living things. This could also provide that they were made not created due to mutation or evolution. Think about how Cortana MAY have been taken by Gravemind. -Lt.O&#39;Brien 16:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * They may not be able to easily capture a useful brain in combat intact. Plus, many Flood are very able to pilot smaller vehicles, just not Pelicans. -ED 02:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * couldnt it have just been that they accidentally captured some random soldier who vaguely knew how to pilot the pelican, and not the pilot himself (or herself)? Phil.e. 02:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That could work. Also IAC could have been crashed into the tower for the purpose of creating disorder and/or enabling Flood to access many levels. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 02:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is possible the forms just crashed the pelican to get the forms out of it quickly before potential hosts had a chance to see them coming and run away. -ED 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I think they crash it to cause confusion --Pileyourbodies 00:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe there were any "Brain forms" in the pelican. I believe they were indeed pouch forms! a flood form that converts bodies not carring calcium deposits into hundreds of infection forms for ling periods of time. perhaps a Combat form was flying the pelican and it had limited access to the controls because of it's state of body formation. that is why they crashed. --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)(UNSC Mision Log) 03:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

By crashing ships instead of landing has the benefits of being able to approach at full speed and make removal of the infected ship more difficult. This makes it much more difficult for any quick-minded defenders to repulse or destroy.

If you were to crash a ship into an enemy base rather than landing in the enemy base than you can cause alot more damage. Also, the flood gain intelligence from assimilating sentient life, they don't autimatically now how to take control of technology, they learn how to through the organisms they assimilate.(Drone232 20:32, November 2, 2009 (UTC))

nomenclature
You know, where exactly does the term Brain Form come from anyway? I was always under the assumption that it was called a Commander Form. I forgot where i got that term, but I never saw Brain form until i saw it on an old fansite.  Dude984  [ Communications ] - [ Contributions ] 02:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know for sure, but most of this comes from HBO. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What if...
Could it be a Gravemind? Nothing has ever said there's only one Gravemind.

No, it isn't intelligent enough to be considered a Gravemind. Also, in the Terminals, the forerunners refer to it as The thing controlling them. I believe any GRaveminds have generic minds andknow what all the others have known, which owuld explain why they are so knowledgable.

I my self compare the proto-gravemind to a dumb AI who can learn only within its field of expertise while gravemind is similar to a smart AI with a much more advanced learning ability.(Drone232 20:35, November 2, 2009 (UTC))

Proto-Gravemind
The Bestarium (at least the legendary version) pretty much confirms that the Brain Form is the beginning of the Gravemind, called the "Proto-Gravemind."

No it isn't. The Beastiarum never states anything of the kind. It never refers to the "Brain Form", it only states that a Gravemind forms when a Proto-Gravemind reaches a critical mass. There is no link between the two, and as such you cannot reasonably claim that they are one and the same.155.205.200.19 00:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

WTF!!!!!????? PROTO WHAT??? THATS NOT AN EARLY GRAVEMIND!!!! ITS A FU***NG BRAIN FORM!!!! --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)(UNSC Mision Log) 03:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets get something straight
The sacks on the H2 level "High Charity" are indeed NOT Brain forms. they are, however, the same things as the H3 sacks that you shoot and mini floods (Infection Forms) pop out.

-AGREE I agree, completly.. --72.15.94.59 22:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form (Closed)
I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form because Not many Users agree with the changer's dicision.

For
I agree. No Proto Gravemind! ':D' --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)(UNSC Mision Log) 22:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I too agree with the descision to rename it to Brain Form, as the Gravemind on Delta Halo most likely existed during the events of Halo 1.XVArchonVx 22:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

And how in any way does that support the argument? There is no correlation between the name of the Flood form in question and the time of creation of The Gravemind.

HEL YES! --72.15.94.59 22:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Only registered users may vote. Çya, M  ø  u  s  e  02:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The Proto-Gravemind might not be a Brain Form, it might be a stage AFTER the Brain Form.--The Demonic Idiot 01:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Protos may be made of multiple brain forms, we have no clear evidence that a Proto-Gravemind is the exact same as a Brain Form. Spartan 112 15:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My main problem with the name brain form is that its never mentioned in Halo games, novels, comics, etc. Its not mentioned Anywhere. The Beastarium, which mentions species not seen in the games like the Engineers and Precursors, doesn't mention "Brain Form" anywhere. And its Bungie's definitive source on all halo species. --Elite Spartan [[Image:MVP achievement.gif|30px]] 17:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Their is no evidence that the proto-gravemind and brain form are the same. And I remember Brain form being mentioned in The Flood. --Smothmoth 3:41, January 6, 2008

Haha check out my massive argument in the topic below the opposing side.--Nerfherder1428 16:09, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Against
What does halo 1 have anything to do with a gravemind in halo 2 and 3?--General  Running  Riot  R  y  a  n  22:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Can't be done. Brain form is a made up fan name. Proto-Gravemind is the name given by bungie. -- EliteSpartan  My Talk   My Contribs  November 5 2007


 * It is never said that THIS was a proto-gravemind, only that "a Gravemind is formed when a Proto-Graveming reaches critical mass" annd not "A proto-gravemind is a brainform, go screw up all of our fan's lives", retard.


 * The beastarium(which has the info on ALL halo species) never even mentions a "Brain Form". All evidence points to this creature being a proto-gravemind. Calm down stuff gets renamed all the time its not a big deal.--EliteSpartan  [[Image:Sergeant-gr3.gif|25px]] My Talk My Contribs [[Image:Cavalier achievement.gif|30px]] 21:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Evidence? "Protogravemind" only said once! I don't even count Bestiaruim (the DVD spelling) or any books as canon unless mentioned or noted in the games. The books are not by Bungie, just by some guy in Washington (My home state). I should just ask them, It's about an hour drive from my house anyways.


 * To the above comment on official cannon, 1. Some books were indeed written by Bungie members, and 2. []. As you can see, books, after Bungie employees and the games, are the next superior source of canon, according to Halopedia, which is where we are right now. Since, as you said, the game does not say anything about the subject, the canon provided in the books presides.Headhunter09 11:35, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The Beastiarium came bundled with Halo 3, which is canon, so I would say to trust the Beastiarium. According to Halopedia:Canon Policy, the Beastiarium ranks as "Other Media", so unless Bungie, an affialiate, the novels, or the games say otherwise, trust it. Çya, M  ø  u  s  e  18:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is Bungie, or at least approved by Bungie. That book was included in the game. The writers do see the Halo Bible. Contact Harvest was even written by the Bungie guy who cowrote the games. And please don't hassle them. --Dragonc laws (talk ) 18:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that didn't work right. I was replying to the user before Mouse when our edits must have overlapped or something. --Dragon<font color="#F28500">c laws (<font color="#4D56B1">talk ) 18:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Official names FTW!!!  Guesty - Persony - Thingy  07:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Official names take precedence over fan names. Rima 'Lacusee undefined 10:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry boys, it needs to stay Proto-Gravemind. It's like calling the Chief John instead of John-117 -- The Lord of Monster Island <font color=#660099>The Lord of Grunts <font color=#FFCC00>SPARTAN-012 James <font color=#00FF00>MCPO James Davis <font color=#33FFFF>I here your cries <font color=#CC3333>May your works be honorable 20:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above User:Honor Guard Reborn

Setting the name issue straight
Alright guys let's settle down. Looking at the above discussion has proven to me how very little some of you know about making an argument or giving evidence that makes sense. Let's look at the facts presented to us. Bungie made clear in the brochure that before a Gravemind, there is something called a Proto-Gravemind. The problem is that all of the people who oppose changing the name to Brainform don't understand the real argument. I think we call all agree that the massive thing on The Flood in Halo Wars was a Proto-Gravemind. It CLEARLY matches the description set forth in the game manual. However, the naming argument we are having is about the sack seen in Halo CE or even the blob in the Graphic Novel. The question is whether THESE are Proto-Graveminds, whether they are the same thing as the GIANT blob in Halo Wars (before you argue, YES things in Halo Wars are authorized as canon by Bungie, and separately by Frankie as well). They clearly do not serve the same purpose. The JOB of both blobs seen in Halo CE and the graphic novel is to assimilate people who can operate the ship. That way, they can pilot it to new worlds to infect. If anything, they'd be called Pilot Forms! They have no ambition to reach a critical mass and become Graveminds. They don't need to grow any larger except to gather more information about a ship's workings. THOSE things are NOT what the brochure describes. What we are in fact seeing, is that a separation needs to occur between the articles altogether. The Halo Wars thing is NOT designed to pilot a ship anymore than the Halo CE and Graphic novel blobs are designed to become Graveminds (so no, they're not). As the last piece of evidence, the actual game files of Halo CE call the creature that assimilated Keyes as a Flood Captain. BAM! Haha. Canon names abound. So there we go. We have a name. And now we can begin the process of separating the two articles please? Thank you! --Nerfherder1428 16:09, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * My reaction:
 * Paragraph breaks are awesome and help to combat what I call the "TL;DR Effect". I did read your comment, but had I not read it via the Diff, I might not have read it at all due to the sheer size.
 * Both forms are created using the same method. Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you've got the beginnings of your so-called "Pilot Form". Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you're well on your way to making gravy.
 * "Flood Captain" could well be a prototypical name, or could have been derived from Captain Keyes' contribution to the form. Hell, it could refer to Keyes himself -- the form might not have been named a Flood Captain but instead a Flood Captain.
 * A Proto-Gravemind could easily be a delegation mechanism. It may be possible that once a main Gravemind has formed, Proto-Graveminds will continue to be instructed, but only to deal with narrow tasks, under the Gravemind's leadership. The Gravemind has compared himself to a computer network before (in the Terminals, when he tells Mendicant Bias that "you need only look at your own [network] topology" to see the similarities), and he may very well act like one. Specifically, he could be a star network, with each individual Flood form acting as a node, and Proto-Graveminds acting as hubs.
 * Say he needs to command a group of five Flood forms. He may do this by sending five sets of commands to one Form, who relays it to the others. This is actually how the Internet works -- you don't send your data to Halopedia; you send it to one computer, which relays it to another, which relays it to another, ..., which relays it to Halopedia.
 * Now say he needs to pilot fifty ships. So he has his Combat Forms construct fifty Proto-Graveminds. Then, he relays general commands to the Proto-Graveminds, which act as network hubs, simplifying the Gravemind's operations by lightening the load, so to speak. He gives a general command to the Proto-Gravemind, and the uncooked gravy decides how best to execute that command given its immediate surroundings and the available Flood forms within those surroundings.
 * Given such a setup, subordinate Proto-Graveminds wouldn't want to increase in mass because there's already enough gravy to go around. All Flood forms have a linked mind, the Gravemind's mind... so if two Graveminds were to be formed "within range" of each other, their minds would likely be linked. Do you really think that an egotistical -- and likely narcissistic -- being who hates being outsmarted and obviously doesn't work with others would get along with itself? Neither do I.
 * So my basic argument, then, is that Brain Forms and Proto-Graveminds are formed the same way, the Gravemind is like the center of a Star network, Proto-Graveminds act like hubs when there's already a Gravemind, and subordinate Proto-Graveminds limit their growth so as to prevent the Gravemind from being affected by multiple personality disorder. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%">[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  22:15, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Haha, Mr. Cobb, I do believe I'd have to agree with the majority of your analysis. And sorry about the paragraph breaks. I wasn't really thinking about formatting at the time.


 * Anyways, I COMPLETELY agree with what you said about the Flood Captain name. It makes much more sense in the context of Keyes' inclusion in the blob. I had thought there probably was a connection but decided to at least mention it at the end of my rant for some closure.


 * I also completely agree that Proto-Graveminds work as relays under one Gravemind. Makes sense to me. I wasn't arguing THAT particular point I guess. And I am completely aware of Gravemind's self-described likeness to a computer network. I also think you made an excellent (and amusing) argument about the limitations on proto-gravemind growth. No, it certainly doesn't seem like Gravemind would want any more of himself around. :D


 * But why is the hunk of flesh in Halo Wars so darn large? That thing stretched for quite a ways. It seems the most logical answer would be that its job was probably to receive commands straight from Gravemind across the depths of space and broadcast it to other subordinate hubs. But would those hubs be named Proto-Graveminds as well?


 * I guess I just don't agree that just because he uses these sacks of rotten flesh to broadcast his commands, that they can all be labeled as Proto-Graveminds. The EU also mentions that Gravemind can broadcast through individual combat forms (or Tank Forms as seen in H3). Yet we don't call THEM ProtoGraveminds! These combat forms can also blob together to grow in size and cognitive thought like the protograveminds in question. In fact, they have EVERY ability a protogravemind has.


 * Every flood form has the potential to become or add to one of these hubs. They can transfer information as they are anyways. So is there a certain mass that determines when a few lumped combat forms become a "proto-gravemind"? Is it when they start resembling a moldy sack of potatoes?


 * It seems the most likely answer is that, like the argument you gave concerning Captain Keyes, the name "Proto-Gravemind" listed in the brochure could be a very generic term that refers to any lump of flood with the ability to act as a node...which essentially, is any lump of flood. The term could cover separate Forms of flood, maybe even the imagined Pilot Form! Haha. So clearly now, because I am so easily confused, what defines a Proto-Gravemind from say... a Pure Form, another lump of calcium and biomass that has been observed in-game to act as a sort of hub?


 * I guess the only clearcut difference I could see is the size and possibly cognitive ability. But again I bring the question to you about how on earth the giant thing in Halo Wars has more like characteristics with Keyes bloated sack than THAT has with any other flood hub/form. Maybe they're grouped together because they look sack-like? Haha. They both serve a delegate purpose, true, but at least the Halo Wars thing had defensive tentacles and coordinated the whole planet's forces. That thing truly earned the "Proto-Gravemind" moniker. CE's blob never twitched.


 * All in all the brochure never mentioned how big or small a Proto-Gravemind had to be or even its purpose beyond coordination, so in all fairness, i concede that you've made a very reasonable point. Hope to hear your reply soon.--Nerfherder1428 02:25, September 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, under my theory, all Flood can act as a kind of hub (relaying Gravy's commands to other nearby Flood), but Proto-Graveminds receive delegation -- unlike Combat Forms, uncooked gravy would, under my theory, receive general instructions, and be granted the freedom to execute those instructions as it sees fit, with control over any nearby resources (like other Flood forms). If this theory is correct, then a Proto-Gravemind would be a Flood form with sufficient intelligence and authority to make its own low-level decisions about how to accomplish Gravy's higher-level goals. If a normal Flood form just passes information, then a Proto-Gravemind could be a Flood form that makes small decisions in addition to passing information.
 * Nevertheless, though, this is somewhat mysterious. Hopefully, more about the Flood's enigmatic nature will be revealed -- there's still flood on Delta Halo and outside the Milky Way Galaxy, and the Flood-Forerunner War remains largely a mystery, so Bungie and/or 343 Industries has plenty to work with. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%">[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  19:52, September 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * That is to say, think of a Proto-Gravemind as the regional manager at your local McDonalds. He gets general commands from the big guys, and gives specific commands to the employees. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%">[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  19:55, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

I am going to agre with you on this, David, "Proto-Gravemind" is the official name of this Flood form (and Halo Wars proves it since when you click on the Proto-Gravemind,it says "Proto-Gravemind", and Halo Wars is an official canon in the Halo series, and I am getting tiered of people saying it's not, it IS. Just because it is not developed by Bungie does not mean it is not apart of the series, thats like saying a guy who has a wife and some kids that are his kids cheats on his wife with another women that gives birth to a baby and people say that baby is not his kid, but it is) and Gravemind may have formed from a Proto-Gravemind, but remember, Gravemind is the leader of the Flood and there is only one of him, but theres more than one Proto-Gravemind, because the Proto-Gravemind is a different flood form and serves the roles of general (keeping an eye on the other Flood forms for Gravemind, which the one in Halo Wars dose) and as pilot of a spaceship that needs a higher intellegence for pilot (whch the one in Halo 1 and the one in the Halo Graphic Novel do because those I think are defenitly Proto-Graveminds) under the comand of Gravemind,who has the role as the Flood's leader, and all other Flood forms have the role as the troops. Yet the only simmilaritys that I found between Gravemind and the Proto-Graveminds is the name (duh XP) and that they both consum and absorb the bodies of sentient life forms to grow (but Gravemind grows unlimetly, for a Proto-Gravemind just need a specific amount.), so I hope that sums it all up. - Annonimus October 14, 2009 10:19 pm (UTC)


 * About the Halo Wars argument: the game may show the giant Flood form as "Proto-Gravemind", but is it the same thing that was seen in Halo: CE? The one in Halo Wars is much larger and seems to serve a different purpose than the small one on the Truth and Reconciliation. Couldn't it be possible that the Proto-Gravemind is like the thing in Halo Wars, and that the form in the first game is something completely different? If a Proto-Gravemind is the final step before ultimate leader of the Flood, why would it just be basically a pilot? It seems much more likely that Halo Wars showed a Proto-Gravemind, while Halo: Combat Evolved showed something less advanced.

Flood San 'Shyuum Form
Let me just say that when it was merged there was no sufficient evidence to say it is the Proto-Gravemind because all you had Subtank was a picture and a bit speculation. And just because she is an Administrator doesn't mean you have to belive her all the time. Just because you think that the Flood San 'Shyuum Form is the Proto-Gravemind all along what about a confirmation or enough evidence because it could be so but there is hardly any evidence. If you provide me a confirmation and/or sufficient evidence I will agree with the fact it is the Proto-Gravemind. -->  My Page  Talk Page   Contributions Page   All Edits Page   Email Page  ( Wiki Page ) ( Favourite Page ) ( Opinion Page ) 09:55, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

All I want is a source and/or sufficient evidence. -->  Userpage  User talk   Contributions   Editcount   Email  ( UserWiki ) ( Favourite ) ( Userboxes ) 13:10, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Prophet Form is an unofficial Flood form made up by the fans. It has never been an official flood form. As such, it should've be deleted from Halopedia, but the past Administration decided it has the potential of being an actual official flood form. Halo Legends disproved this, and as such, it has been merged.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 13:47, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * And it was discussed via the Irk. As such, logs of the discussion may have not been recorded.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 13:48, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * It can stay like that but I think that it shouldn't have been merged because what you said is not sufficient evidence so the article should have stayed until further confirmations and such and all of that is made up by you. -->Captain Grade One.png  Userpage  User talk   Contributions   Editcount   Email  ( UserWiki ) ( Favourite ) ( Userboxes ) 14:17, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * This wiki concerns with only official content and a few other notable fan-made content (i.e. RVB). Fanon and other contents should be removed from the wiki. "Prophet Form" has always been a fanon article ever since it was created in 2006/07 . The only canon content was the image and the fact that it appeared in H2's Gravemind Cutscene. As such, the article should never remained in Halopedia. Instead, the canon content should have remained in the Proto-Gravemind article under Trivia. Of course, no one did anything and I have to make an immediate action.
 * The sources would be Halo Legends' Origins Part II. The so-called Prophet Form in the episode is infact a Proto-Gravemind form. As such, it is inferred that the Prophet of Regret in the H2 cutscene was under the transformation of becoming a Proto-Gravemind; this process was halted due to the existence of a Gravemind, who later used the Prophet as a figure of influence for the Chief and Arbiter in the cutscene.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 16:32, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the Prophet Form IS an official Flood form and here is the evidence. The Halo Encyclopedia, page 157. It is NOT the same as the Proto-Gravemind. - Annonomus 10:53 am 5 June, 2010 (UTC)

Proto-Compound Intelligence
The Anniversary Library seemingly mentions these things as being called a "Proto-Compound Intelligence" I think so perhaps this article should be renamed. 81.105.44.27 12:09, 17 November 2011 (EST)
 * Compound Intelligence is another name for the Gravemind given by the Forerunners (per Terminals in Halo 3). So, it is still correct to refer it as Proto-Gravemind.— subtank  12:12, 17 November 2011 (EST)

Halo 2
Where does this appear in Halo 2? Thanks, --Weeping Angel (talk) 17:26, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
 * The Prophet of Regret, as noted in the article, is one such individual with leadership, tactical, and technical skills that would necessitate the creation of a Proto-Gravemind.
 * I thought a Proto-Gravemind was merely a stepping stone to a Gravemind. The first paragraph of this article states that the Proto-Gravemind is an advanced flood form "with the ultimate goal of creating a fully-functional Gravemind." It appears to me that a fully formed Gravemind could do anything a Proto-Gravemind could do, such as effectively assimilate a Prophet. Why, then, was there both a Gravemind and a Proto-Gravemind in the same location at the same time? Why do we not consider Regret to be assimilated straight into the Gravemind? Thanks, --Weeping Angel (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
 * It's also my impression. I've always thought that Regret had just been absorbed by the Gravemind directly. There's no need to have Halo 2 in the list of appearances, I think. Imrane-117 (talk) 07:45, 2 November 2014 (EST)
 * Yeah I have no idea why Regret is on the page. It's pretty clear he's just a puppet, or appendage, of the Gravemind that was already there, not any kind of separate Flood entity of his own. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 11:34, 2 November 2014 (EST)