Talk:Forerunner

Data Entry 13:29, 27 October 2007 UTC

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Article
The articles should have good grammars and structure. I've seen ad structures over the past few days and have been working on them to make it more easier to understand.

Please, before putting any data of information, refer them closely and put some references next ot it. This will make the artilce less disputed. I am the current monitor of the article and will correct any data or information which has problems in them.....

H-107 Subtle Tank 13:20 10.31.07 UTC

Biology
There are a few problems with this whole thread. 1. We are not actually Homo Sapiens, which evolved 100,000 years ago, we are cro-magnon (Homo Sapien Sapien)which evolved 40,000 years ago. So we are a subspecies anyways, why can't we have a common ancestor with the Forerunner! 2. In the iris videos it says "ironic that we have discovered this fact about ourselves in our final hour. If humans were capable of mass amnesia, why can't the forerunners. In one of the terminals, it says that the Forerunners worship the Precursors as the Covenant worships the Forerunner. Therefore maybe the Precursors were the common ancestor, they were the first humans, then they evolved into the forerunner and us seperately, perhaps on different planets. The forerunners discovered humanity at the end and realized their common ancestry, that is why we are special, we are the forerunners long lost little brother. When we saw the "Gods" building their machines, we marveled the way a baby watches a teenager, he does not know nor understand what his brother is doing but that doesn't change anything.

also who ever came up with the 3 million year old thing, that is when apes stood upright, not when humans evolved. In halo CE, when 343 talks about surviving to reproduce, he is talking about the forerunner, thats called a paragraph (second grade grammar).

srsly, this is the best idea i've heard for this argument, LISTEN TO THIS MAN 24.16.45.200 22:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Tiny edit
I made a very small edit to the opening part of "Forerunners & Humans" to make it less biased and more neutral (after all, it is no absolute in nay way that Iris 5 definatly says NO,) so I merely changed the wording so it does not bias towards one side's theory and feel like its ignoring the other side's theory, becuase before it was biased against any connection between Forerunners and Humans and took arguable statements (Iris 5) into their own interperatation. Thank you for your time 24.16.45.200 22:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed Aliens?
If anyone is following the Iris ARG, it clearly states in Episode 5 that the Forerunners found Earth and thought that the native species (us) was very interesting. This seems to say that the Forerunners have nothing to do with Humans genetically, as they discovered us near the end of the war with the Flood. Thus they built the Ark to save us from the activation of the Halo's. This means that for some reason the Forerunners thought we had some sort of untapped power or trait that made us important. Of course since this is from the ARG it could be slightly different than the actual game story arc, but I doubt it.ArchonGold 22:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I was readings a statment made by bungie them self that I quote  'The Forerunner are not yet confimed aliens'  and if I know how companies work, then that means they are maybe I don't know but I think that the Foreruner are a race of humans or human like race that was the oldest race and they were very intellegent. -- 62.254.32.23 Dec 19, 23:06


 * I agree. This is like Doctor Who. I mean the Timelords evolved into what they are now in the show. And all life followed the same course. i.e. The Greatest species in that area. will affect others. Even dumber... if the Forerunners were Like humans (looked like us a lot like aliens do in Star Trek) then they would leave a print in the dna strand thing. so that Humans would evolve into a similar ifeform. Trust me... it is in Doctor Who. And Star Trek if your in the US. -- Forerunner December 20, 16:11 (UTC)

Hmmm, leaving D.N.A. in humans, sounds like Destroy All Humans to me.--prophit of war 15:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

quote:

Their energy weapons, described as a single golden beam, charged slowly, but when fired, could melt straight through the armor of the Spartan III's. -from article

umm... spartan III??? RimFire  TM

Spartan III from "Ghosts of Onyx", and the gold beam is from the sentinals of Onyx. Lt.O&#39;Brien 14:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this, the Forerunners messed with human DNA to allow them to easily work their technology.

No, the Forerunner called 'Librarian' terraformed the Earth into a paradise, before that it was barren. Not exactly a nice habitat for humans. Humans have also been confirmed as the descendants of the Forerunners by the Prophet of Truth and 04-343 Guilty Spark - this time in a coherent way and not some rambling.

The Forerunners did not infuse humans with DNA, they didn't even pass on their knowledge, as they sought to 'leave' the universe. Taken from the terminal #2 fragment:

Didact: "There are no unstoppable forces in this universe. There are no immovable objects. Everything gives if you push hard enough."

Librarian: "And what about us, Didact? We've been irresistible and immovable for too long. Maybe it's our turn to give."

Librarian terraformed the Earth into paradise for the returning Forerunners after the Flood. Basically it's the story of Noah's Ark retold: indexing, everyone on board the Ark, Flood happens, after Flood a beautiful landscape is revealed.

The reason the monitors call the humans 'Reclaimers' is simply because they don't know any better. They just think their masters have returned. --SirSmokeal0t 18:51, 28 September 2007

Yeah, but couldn't the Forerunners be the evolved form of humanity, that lived on another planet? And that, because they evolved so quickly, they didn't realize that they were once homo sapians, except for a few, who decided to save the race so they would evolve? This could also explain why only a few were chosen to activate the rings, as they would be the first to start to evolve. I don't know if this contracts anything, as I kind of gave up on Iris (out of laziness). -- The Gamer 13 5:19 PM ET, 2 October 2007

Errors
I just made an account here, so Im not really sure how to do this or if I am messing anything up. I just changed a reference to 343 Guilty Spark in Halo 2. I do believe PT was the moniter who made that statement. I could be wrong.

And to whoever posted that History Circles Back on us thing there, about victory with the ar symbol, that went to everyone registered for xbox flash. You can register on xbox.com. It was not neccesitated by buying a halo3 product.

still not sure how to sign my name....

accident prone8

New Theory
Ok maybe not a theory on who they are but some more evidence to them being near human. I just remembered that the dominent genetic trait for the number of fingers and toes on a human is to have 6-fingers/toes, not five, and by the picture, a forerunner hand has 6 fingers. --Lt.O&#39;Brien 14:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC) I have 6 fingers, are you calling me Forerunner????

Humans have 5 fingers: 5 is dominant. GODDDDD!69.162.222.113 00:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, after all the genetic trait that control the development of the bones in a good way is recessive, the one that make the bones growing deformed is the dominant one, so its possible that the 6 fingers one is the dominant 66.158.134.50 17:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the hologram was designed for use of both right and left hand, due to the two thumblike fingers on the hand hologram. Troubleshooter 17:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Was I correct?
I changed the 'Known History' section to the following. 'In the second game, Halo 2, 2401 Penitent Tangent explains that after exhausting every other strategic option in their struggle against The Flood, ' Someone had it as 343 guilty spark. I am sure however that it was in fact 2401 penitent tangent.


 * Nope, It was most Holy Oracle, 343 Guilty Spark. --Gzalzi 16:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was in the last cutscene in Halo 2 before fighting Tartarus. -ED 16:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * He must have got it mixed up with the scene when 2401., has an argument with the prophet of regret-- 12/48 20/2/07

I'm putting this here because I feel that The Forerunner glyphs need to be changed as all glyphs we've seen the Covenant was there first and could have put them there.-- MCDBBlits 21:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Something Wierd
On the same link u get to if your on 200,0000 BCE or watever the page is called. It links to a page that shows the meaning of some of the forerunner writings mainly the blue and red, but it shines alot of light on what those writings mean... Try Here -- 12/48 20/2/07

Spoiler Warning
Would someone place spoiler warnings around the conjecture of forerunner background. It's very likely this will be pivotal to halo 3 as it completes the story arc, and some of the theories are rather plausible.zudduz 17:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

History Circling Back upon Us
"The gears of the universe spin further and further apart. Ever greater grows the gulf between souls, And distance gives false hope of safety But for the grim tidings this messenger brings:

The enemy is almost upon us

closing in from all sides, Moving faster than the light it snuffs with its passage, Time echoes with the news of destruction. History winding back upon itself.

Waves of an army march its way in unison, Suffering and corruption are its battle cries. For i have known this darkness and felt its embrace once before- Horror best laid to rest

Yet a Journey must commence

Look for the signs, the keepers of the flame. They will lead you to war, and perhaps, to victory."

This is what people who pre-order the halo 3 themed Xbox 360 controllers get in the e-mail, apparently. there's also a picture of a Forerunner symbol next to it, leaving me in no doubt its not for Gears of War. The forum-goers of HBO have dubbed it the "Forerunner E-Mail." Make of this what you will...

Kora ‘Morhekee The Battle-Net My Conquests. 20:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Very interesting... I have no idea what it means. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 21:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, I got it from my Xbox.com subscription, but I didn't order the special controllers. Here's something though, AdjutantReflex's avatar is the same symbol as in the email. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 00:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"The gears of the universe spin further and further apart."

This may be a reference to the fact that humanity once that that the univesre was close and they were the most powerful force in the galaxy. But that changed and the power shifted to the coveneant.

"Ever greater grows the gulf between souls, And distance gives false hope of safety"

I think this is refering to the fact that humanity is falling apart and breaking from power that it once held. so with out that power Safety is gone for most of the inner colonies.

The enemy is almost upon us

closing in from all sides, Moving faster than the light it snuffs with its passage

They are almost upon us is a refence to the fact that most human colonies are glassed. Same for the next line. "it snuffs with its passage" may be talking about how when the covenant pass through a system they destroy it. so when the coveant comptetes its passage, the planet is snuffed.

Waves of an army march its way in unison, Suffering and corruption are its battle cries. For i have known this darkness and felt its embrace once before- Horror best laid to rest

Yet a Journey must commence The army is clearly the flood as it corrupts a body. It is also a dark fate for any soul. The person refered to by "I" is a forerunner. They are the race that felt the embrace oif the flood and dfeated it with the halos.

Look for the signs, the keepers of the flame. They will lead you to war, and perhaps, to victory.

"Keepers of the Flame"? Regret wanted to ' light this holy ring and unleash it clensing flame.' So if halo is the flame, then the keepers of the flame are reclaimers. so If we assume that humans with certian genes are reclaimers, then reclaimers shall lead us to victory. and since spartans and few other have these gens, then spartans will lead us to victory. Spartans have lead the fight for decades, so this part is true. So from this we must assume that Halo will end with humanity being saved by Mastercheif who is the last spartan 2 in this dimension.

My belief
Forerunners may be actually human, but not human at that time. Possibly from the future. ---Below is a great story that I thought--- 343 Guilty Spark told Master Chief that "Last time, you asked me, if it was my choice, would I do it? Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed." Maybe Master Chief go back to the past and meet (or even make) 343 Guilty Spark. 343 Guilty Spark asked Master Chief "Why would you hesitate to do what you've already done?" That means Master Chief was the man who first activated halo. In the book Halo: The Flood, Master Chief just 'know' how to activate light bridge. It might because of the 'remaining memory' of Master Chief. Similarly, the Master Chief and the other Spartan-IIs describe Forerunner technology and language as "familiar". It is also because of the 'remaining memory'. Then it also stated that the other Spartan-IIs also go back to the past. The possble result might be: Covenant and human are both suffering from the floods. Since human don't want it continues, they decided to bring the floods (including Gravemind) to the past. Therefore, Master Chief and the other Spartan-IIs start the journey (There is also a possibility that the Master Chief and Spartan-IIs bring the floods back to the past accidently). Unfortunately, after they reached the past, the floods escaped and destroyed the time machine. Master Chief and Spartan-IIs therfore can't go back to future. They stay there, and become the forerunners.

P.S. Some of the imformations are from halopedia.

I like your theory, but Humans so far are the only species called reclaimers, now we dont know about all humans or not but we do no miranda keyes and mc. In h2 Johnson was there with the key too (not that he had it or anything) but he was another option, now i think that johnson couldn't activate halo b/c he had a flood gene in him (you find that out in the 3 halo book)but non the less no other being can activate halo. This also brings up a new ?/theory. If the prophets were so worried about the great journey and being part of it then how come at the end of h2 truth wasnt in the controll room when miranda was forced to put the key in and why was he hauling it to earth? well i have 2 theorys 1st is he knows about every thing (hence the prophet of truth and so far all the prophets had some thing to do with there name)and he knows that earth has the ark and it is a safe haven( acording to bilical terms) so he is having it cleared of all life so the covenent can make that there homeworld (and as far as we know they dont have a homeworld just giant floating bases) and the are activating halo to clear the flood and all other life making him a supreme being cause nothing else can match the covenent. the 2nd **spoiler for h3** is he is there looking for a key of some sort (hence the beta code level called the key and the reference to the key in tha uprising strip that was posted on bungie)and he wants to carry out his plans from the first theory via ark/earth

oh and MC and the other spartans are the most related to the forerunners or atleast their military b/c 343 gs mentions that he will need atleast a class 12 armor to fight off the flood and he currently has a class 2 so that tells us that the forerunners has his type of armor classed.

Humanity's survival
In this and many other pages it states Halo was fired approximatly 100,000 local years ago, no matter how long a year is on the Threshold system it can't account how Humanity survived the firing.

According to modern science humanity has existed on earth for 3 million years. That said the initial firing of Halo would have wiped out humanity on earth before written history. -

Yes, but, around that time, a little before, if I am right. They Forerunners landed on Earth, and built The Ark. Now, around this time, most humans were in Africa, and that is also the place where The Ark supposedly is. Humanity, or what was there at that time, could have been put in the Ark at that time, and that's how they would have survived.Well the Ark was constructed to protect humanity when the halos where activated.

Make sense? --Spartan-029 19:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless you go by the bible terms, which would say that the Earth was formed 6,000 years ago, but halo isn't going by that...oh well. Anyways, my theory is, that the forerunners are humans. Either that or the rings just traveled to another galaxy.--H*bad (talk) 20:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Symbols or alphabet?
I'm sure everyone has seen the Forerunner symbols, but don't they also look like their alphabet? There are 24 symbols, and 24 letters in our alphabet...so maybe this is where the present day human-alphabet came from, which might also further explain the Forerunner-Humanity similarity. If this sounds rediculous, don't flame me please. Kap2310 20:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Its hard not to flame when the English alphabet actually has 26 letters. ;) --Justin Time 00:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

.........D'OH! I need to back to 1st grade I think......at least you didnt call me a noob or anything like that :/ Kap2310 18:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Forerunner/Human
I added to the forerunners humans? Section. 343 says the forerunners race depended on the study and containment of the flood. Right after that comment he says to the chief "I am glad to see that some survived to reproduce!" Are humans primitave forerunners? Arbiters Follower 08/11/07 5:25pm Um, I think 343 is referring to the flood. The flood would have most likely died if they were not contained within the Halos.Terin 01:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The flood do not reproduce, they only reproduce through other organisms. So He was referring to humans or forerunners. Coproal John 03:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC) Coproal John

Problem
Now I'm not disagreeing with the theiry of humans being the Forerunners but how could they be if in the cradle of life comic, the old man is seeing the forerunners build what may be the Ark. That may give you something to think about. Hydraman 08/11/07 10:12pm

I agree, he must be talking about humans. You see, he says studying the flood was important for their survival and then he mentions hes glad someof them was able to reproduce. now, "their" could be reffering to mankind.If you check the halo 3 site, and dig alittle into the log accounts, the forerunners were studying earth, something on the earth intriqued them or the potential that mankind seemed to hold. so they built the ark to protect them from the firing of halo after the flood became to threatful to hold. So, we might not be descended from forerunners but saved by them all those years ago. Rob117 12:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

cradle of life
Okay this will sound kinda strange but what if humans are in fact a sub-species of the forerunner? I hope that makes sense. But that is interesting about cradle of life.Arbiters Follower 08/12/07 1:01pm -- And what of the giants who formed this world?...

I was thinking that forerunners may not be humans because it was said at the cortana letters that they were somewhat big. Also look at the Dreadshold that ship is relly big, and also many of the contruction were ver tall. The forerunners were also named as gods, it of course may be because of their technology, but it may also be because of their size.

And other thing about Cortana letters: i was wonddering if the first letter is written by Cortana or by the Gravemind controlling, cuz it seems that the flood have destroyed many other intelligent empires and because of the fact that they infect any other living being it may cause a great fear that even the bravest soldiers.

08/28/07 johnny_chrno@hotmail ---

ok maybe Spartas II and III´s are taller and the letters sounds just like if Cortana is now at our age assuming that she has been there and seen the past and the future of us and learned, how could that be possible unless there had been a time distortion? now I see your point, but there shuld have been more than just afew spartans to create all of the Halos and Onyx, because it was said that there were many forerunners who fought but didnt contained the Flood

Xrinix

Picture
Yes, I believe the picture may be a forerunner. plus if it where the statue of liberty if you look closely,lol, there are no spikes, just somthing that looks like a pony tail.

Yeah, thanks user:71.63.110.236 for deleting my post. And it was just an observation - no need to delete my post.  Kora ‘Morhek   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  02:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

7
I bet the Iris logo is the Forerunner's symbol for the number seven. Look at the similarities between that and the other number symbols. Chieftain Maccus Rally to the Loyalist Cause 16:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey Graphic novel and forrunner symbols
Look on page 95 the elite is speaking and forerunner symbol come out.

Forerunners... Humans?
Unless I'm mistaken, something like a Halo would take an incredibly extensive amount of knowledge to build. And as far as I am concerned, HUMAN-built AI's such as Cortana was able to figure out almost everything about Halo. So if Humans built Cortana, than couldn't it be possible that the Forerunners are Humans?

Also, why are they called FORErunners? If Humans have been around for millions of years, than shouldn't huumans be Forerunners and Forerunners be Runners or Postrunners?

Plus, we all know that 343 Guilty Spark was built by Forerunners. So if humans are in contact with 343 GS, couldn't they just ask him who the Forerunners were, human or alien?

And if 343 GS keeps calling the Master Chief "Reclaimer", then couldn't it be possible that Forerunners were humans in similar armor than Mjonlir, or aliens that look like Mjonlier-type armor. Because if he calls him Reclaimer, couldn't it be possible REclaimers look like the Forerunners, if he seems to recognize the MAster Cheif as a Reclaimer?

Epeu

Sorry, but you're a little behind. Iris confirmed that the Forerunners aren't human, but they still have a mysterious link to us. But regardless, i dont see why Cortana's existence is proof that humanity are the Forerunners. Even she never figured out Halo's secrets fully, and mostly she just stored it as data. I'm sure that the armour has a link, and maybe it has its roots in Forerunner technology - explaining the similarities to 343GS? Kora ‘Morhekee The Battle-Net My Conquests. 21:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

possable theory
I know that the forerunners are not human but could we have evolved from them or they evolved from us although unlikley but we could have evolved from them OR they left slight traces of their DNA in achant humans so we could actavate the rings

actually halo 3 confirms that the Forerunners are Human, and with the iris info it just lets us know that they are of a different origin just the same genus and we the "missing link" to the Forerunners own mysteries [origin?].-- Halo_freak_117 (on public computer, not logged on)

Iris
If you read the transcript go Episode 5 of Iris it says that the Forerunners Discovered humanity shortly before activating the Halos and then built the ARK to protect humanity from the Flood and the activation fo the halos. Arbiters Follower Sept 1, 12:59pm

Its says they discovered a planet with Unique denizens, they never specify humanity. Just that they hold the secret to their own mystery and a code of Alligator DNA was attached to a server also, what does that have to do with anything. Did anyone ever find out?

Help
Hey, I've been editing the articles dealing with Humans being forerunners. As it has been proved false ive been fixing the articles. Its been taking a while so if anyone could help. Thanks! Arbiters Follower Sept 1, 1:03pm Now that halo 3 is over we need to edit the Forerunner section because its been CONFIRMED that we are Forerunner

Not Exactly. Guilty Spark exibits many factors common to Rampancy. Irrational Behavior, Irrational Thinking, Irrational everything. 343 might've gotten Humans and Forerunners confused during this state of rampancy, due to the latter's need to keep the Human race alive. 5748 PrimaryCipher 01:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Iris is obviously flawed as in Halo 3 in the script that Bungie wrote 343 Guilty Spark states to Master Chief "You are Forerunner,...". Also Guilty Spark calls all of Humanity "Reclaimers", while keeping in mind that only Forerunners can activate the Halo Array this proves that Humans are Forerunners. Also the Librarian catologed the species on Earth which could have been all the animal and reptiles of Earth. The Forerunners also could have changed their name from Forerunner to Humans out of regret or disdain from what the Forerunners caused.

The picture
Either the image should be removed or the caption changed. We have NO information to support that that's a Forerunner or it's infected form. For all we know, it was just a random clip inserted into the Iris video that serve's no purpose. So either change the caption to reflect that it's speculative, or remove it. -- Hunter-113 01:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Out of all of the Iris ARG videos, this is the Only one in which a Humanoid figure can be seen. Eyes, a head, even a mouth, its probably the closest we'll get to a Forerunner. Seeing that this was a Forerunner Transmission, it only reinforces it. 5748 PrimaryCipher 02:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Hunter-113. We have no proof if it is a Forerunner - it was in an Episode dealing with the Reclaimers, so its probably human - I personally think it looks remarkably like the Statue of Liberty, but that's just my opinion.  Kora ‘Morhek   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  21:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The "Master chief pumping iron in the clouds of High Ground" picture is easier to make out as kinda looking like what you want it to than that one is. The human brain looks for patterns and recognisable shapes even when there are none.

Forerunner/Human "disproved"?
Maybe I’m missing some vital piece of information, but I have yet to see how the theory that “Forerunner = Ancient Humans” has been disproved. All we’ve got at the minute – to my knowledge - is a reference to “unique denizens” being discovered on Earth by the Forerunner. Whilst this can certainly be interpreted to mean humanity, this is not - by any stretch - the only interpretation. After all, who's to say that they’re not just talking about Earth’s vast population of animals?

Similarly, I recall one of the computer terminal thingies in Halo 3 talking about a Forerunner having “named and indexed” all the species of Earth and that strikes me being linked in some way to Adam’s naming of the birds and beasts in the Judeo-Christian creation myth… which implies "Forerunner=Human".

Then of course, there's the whole fact that Guilty-Spark tells us that Master-Chief IS Forerunner. I don't quite know what this page means by "humanity is shown to have joined the Forerunner"... unless the Forerunner were akin to the Covenant and something of a mixed bag when it came to species.

Anyway. If there's some real conclusive proof that humans aren't Forerunner, feel free to slap my down. I just hope I didn't miss such proof in this article... that would be embarrassing.(86.1.169.81 01:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC))

There might be some evidence towards Forerunner=Human. Guilty Spark in the final campaign mission of Halo 3 exclaims "You Are Forerunner, but this is MY ring!". Either Guilty Spark has revealed our true origins, or he has gone into a state of Rampancy. I lean towards the latter. 5748 PrimaryCipher 01:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * sigh* We're being flooded by "Forerunners=Human" people. Firstly, Truth - he became a religious zealot in Halo 3, and probably had no real idea! Second, 343 GS - "You are the Reclaimer - inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner...but this ring is mine." He was only saying that since he's a Reclaimer, he might as wel be a Forerunner - not that he has to be a human to be a Forerunner. And the Terminals actually prove that the Forerunners arent human! [[Image:HalfJaw03.jpg|20px]]  Kora ‘Morhek '  The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  01:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So what you're stating as fact is, in truth, your interpretation? An interpretation based off your belief that the terminals stated the Forerunner discovered humanity? From what I remember - which, admittedly, may be sketchy - there is only mention of the discovery of "unique species" in the terminals.  Species, obviously, is both singular and a plural - so who is to say which usage was meant? If the former, then yes - it would appear that the FR discovered humanity... if the latter, then it just shows that the Forerunner considered all of Earth's non-human species to be unique and special. To be quite honest, I have trouble believing that Bungie would have Guilty Spark declare that Master Chief IS Forerunner in the last game of the trilogy only to have that not really be true, but perhaps I'm odd. (86.1.169.81 00:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC))


 * True, I admit. The Terminals intentional ambiguity is frustrating. But if you're talking about interpretations, then 343GS is open to interpretation. "..inheritor to all they left behind. You are Forerunner...but this ring is mine." It sounds to me like he's merely saying that he might as well be a Forerunner, as their inheritor - it wouldnt make any difference to his decision. But i stick by my interpretation - humans may be the inheritors of the Forerunners empire, but we arent their descendants. Honour Light Your Way - [[Image:HalfJaw03.jpg|20px]]  Kora ‘Morhek   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  06:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, first off, Specops306, or Kora, or whatever, since when is 343 Guilty Spark a religious zealot? He's rampant, not Covenant! More than likely, he has gone rampant as a result of the destruction of Installation 4. There's a big difference between crazy and religious zealot. And he "probably has no real idea"? Come on, guy! I think "You are Forerunner" carries a little more weight than asserting that Spark is some kind of religious zealot who has joined the Prophet of Truth in going off the deep end worshipping the Forerunner (who he probably knew on a personal level, as they built him!) All the evidence being cited as "proof" that the Human=Forerunner theory is disproved is circumstantial at best. There is easily as much, if not more, hard proof to support the Human=Forerunner theory than to disprove it, and as such I think that all references to the theory being disproven should be removed immediately. (SpartHawg948 08:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC))


 * What? First off, the whole "religious zealot" thing was TRUTH, not GS. Truth may know some stuff, but its garbled by the Covenant religion - that's what i was getting at. GS may know, but he's too ambiguous to be sure. And there's much evidence that the humans ARENT Forerunners - they saw the "Gods" (the REAL Forerunners) building the portal; they have never been called Forerunners, except for GS at the end of Halo 3; they are being persecuted by a civilisation that venerates the Forerunners; Dont ignore that, too. So all that we've proved here, is that nobody can ever tell for sure. Honour Light Your Way - [[Image:HalfJaw03.jpg|20px]]  Kora ‘Morhek   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  00:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * excuse my lack of an account for the time being(grrr) but i have some things to say. 1. Humans on Earth saw the "GODS" becuase pherhaps (as with ealier human survival theories of the 1st activation) they were mentally restarted (this is just to say that just becuase humans dont realis their Forerunner, doesnt mean they arnt, by your logic...Humans are definatly not Forerunner becuase humanity doesnt say they are. Your "GODS" argument is not very strong). 2. I agree with SpartHawg948 in that the Hard evidence for Human=Forerunner is more prevalent than Human join Forerunner (or disproving H=F). 3. the fact that 343 said "You ARE Forerunner" does not sound like he saying you might as well be (with the empahsis on ARE being more like "Becuase you are" than "you might as well be"). They way you argue this point, i feel like if Bungie officialy stated "Humans are Descendants of Forerunner" you'd turn the statement to say they arnt. As for the Terminals, i agree that they are too ambiguous to really make any points with. I personally think thate the Forerunner made humans in an effort to save part of their race if they ever needed to activate the Array System again, they ensured this by creating a shism artifact(im not the sure of the proper term for it, i just call it the slipspace generator) and by making humans different from forerunner mentally (Tempory Semi-sentience, which would grow to sentience after time) so as to not let them be killed by the Rings. Again, sorry for the lack of a Account, but please do not discredit my opinion, thank you. 24.17.193.27 22:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't "discredit" an opinion unless it's worth discrediting - you mention some valid points (though I don't agree that we were "created" by the Forerunners.) And did you mean "retarded" instead of restarted? That itself doesnt make sense - N'chala would simply have no idea what the machines were. But it seems apparent that he doesnt think they're made by humans. What exactly did you mean? Honour Light Your Way - [[Image:HalfJaw03.jpg|20px]]  Kora ‘Morhek   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  08:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What im saying is that humans were (to put it bluntly) devolved mentaly as to make them not identifiy themselves as Forerunner, im basically saying humans are like a sub-species of Forerunner. They are still Forerunner in their Physiology and mental capabilities(the amount of progress possible, they have the same capacity to progress as the Forerunner did). The Forerunner "made" humans as a way of ensuring their species would survive the activation by making them mentally subtle(either it be semi-sentience, or the simplicity of human civilization...considering whether or not humans made it to the Ark, something i find hard to beleive with most of the Key Ships destroyed before they arrived at the Ark. Now, with the new information i've since researched about this subject, i have had some doubt about my own theory. The main fact is the Terminals seem to say that the forerunner discovered Homo Sapiens on Earth. But as discussed before, the use of the word species is both plural and singular, and i might add that another terminal talks of how beautifull Earth's ecosystem is. This leads me to beleive they were simply refering to the Fauna of Earth, and not specifically Homo Sapiens. In short, i beleive humans are the same species as the Forerunner, but they were mentally "dumbed down" to make their existence both safe from the Activation and subtle to outside forces while they still grew.(They basically made humans like the Forerunner used to be when they first evolved on thier planet, simple minded, but would grow to their current technology.). I would really appreciate some more info on the Humans being saved from the activation by being on the Ark(becuase i find it hard to beleive that happened, how would they have gotten to Earth?)which is why i prefer my theory of semi-sentience/subtly. if you still need any clarification, just ask, thank you.164.116.71.127 19:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Essentially, the problem I (I was the 86.1 IP above) have with the article is that it states what seems to be the prevailant opinion as an absolute fact. I have no doubt that the article could be 100% correct, but I think it is very presumptious to say:

""This theory, however, has been disproved due to the opening of Episode 5 of Iris stating that the Forerunners discovered humanity""

- Forerunner article

When Episode 5 of Iris does not state any such thing. What Ep 5 does do is perhaps insinuate that the Forerunner discovered humanity but it is certainly not definite and there are other interpretations. The same goes for the terminals.

An encyclopaedia, which is what this place (I assume) aspires to be, has no place for speculation that is not identified as such.

It would be better, perhaps, to say: ""If the "unique denizens" mentioned by the Forerunner in Episode 5 of Iris are humankind, however, this theory is disproved."

- Potential forerunner article

Or something along those lines. The same goes for stuff like:

"This is because he means the humans are similar in spirit and mentality to the Forerunners."

- Forerunner article

This is another overt assumption that is trying to pass itself off as fact. At this point, we can't know for sure that this is the case. Just because something might be true - or is the most likely thing to be true - does not mean that it is true.

Sorry if I'm being a pain in the ass ;) (Ulicus 17:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

- It is pretty clear the humans are not forerunners. According to the 5th Iris server, the forerunner discovered humanity, and then built a portal to the Ark on Earth in order to index them. Also, Terminal Four states, "I'm trapped. On a beautiful, empty world. Its inhabitants have been safely indexed, every single one of them. They're special--well worth the effort it took to build one final gateway even at this late hour." The "them" is humans, because according to Terminal One, the Librarian only indexed sentient species, not regular animals.

Terminal Three states, "L: Categorization has sped since the improvements were announced, but there are many hurdles. The indexing of sentient species may have irreversible effects on the surviving non-sentient species. We will have extinction events and irreparable environmental harm on at least 18 worlds. Current projections estimate post-archival cataclysm on as many as 31 worlds. The paucity of sentience has been a blessing in this regard." Non-sentient species are effected because sentient species are absent, having been taken to the Ark (indexed). This means that non-sentients were left behind. Otherwise they wouldn't be effected by the absense of sentients, as both sentients and non-sentients would be together on the Ark. This means that the species indexed from Earth, the "them" in terminal four, has to be humans.

Maybe forerunner saw something of themselves in humans, and that's why we were considered special, and singled out to be reclaimers.

However, I would like to add that the argument that the earth-like environment of the halo rings/ark/shield world are evidence that support the forerunner=humans theory. Humans, Elites, Hunters, Jackals, Drones, Prophets and Brutes; nearly every species are able to survive on Halo/Ark/Earth without need of air filters, or special habitation equiptment. Thus, it seems that most life in the Halo universe develops in earth like environments, and thus an earth like environment would be suitable for the Halos and the Ark, as large numbers of species could survive on them. The exception to this are Grunts, who breath methane from tanks on their backs.

Finally, The Librarian did not terraform Earth. I don't get where people are getting this, but its clear that earth was already inhabited and fertile when the Librarian arrived. Terminal Six states, "Did I tell you? I built a garden. The earth is so rich. A seed falls and a tree sprouts or a flower blooms. There's so much...potential. We knew this was a special place because of them, but unless you've been here, you can't know." The Librarian built a garden, probably on the slope of Killimanjaro (snow-capped sentinel). Hoever, this doesn't mean it terraformed the whole planet. Humans were already present before it arrived and indexed them. -

I really don't see Forerunners being humans. I see them as having the same physical strutcure (an explanation on why they thought of us as special and chose us to be their inheritors, out of so many species), but otherwise different. It's not that farfetched an idea; Forerunners looking like, but not being, humans. User:Sephirose

Remember
lol you guys forgot the humans are reclaimers. yushaw 23:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Forerunners are human
At the end of Halo 3 343 Guilty Spark says "you are the children of my makers, inheriters of all they left behind, You ARE Forerunner" Proving at last the Forerunners were ancient humans that built the rings, killed themselves while activating the rings, but created a primitive humanity as a last resort to keep their species alive. We couldn't be killed because at the time of the firing we wen't sentient enough to be hosts for flood.

Yes and no. It is true that Humans are Forerunner descendants; the statements from 343 Guilty Spark, Truth, Gravemind, and other sources state this. The book Halo: Contact Harvest also confirms this as well.

However, it seems likely that rather than creating Humans, they found this disconnected population of their species and indexed them; when the Halos actually fired, the only "Human" on Earth was Librarian, who watched over the landscape and the "garden" she created, waiting for her demise.

The Earth-born Forerunner weren't even on the planet; they were on the Ark, and were fully sentient. Had they been on Earth, they would be dead, just like their interstellar brethren.

--Exalted Obliteration 20:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Exalted Obliteration

I agree with you, for the most part. I believe that Forerunners and Humans have the same physical structure, yet are completely different. I like this theory alot. Sephirose 4:52 PM October 31 2007

Uneasiness
For all the talk about Humans=Forerunner, something just doesn't feel right. If this is to be true, which is unclear, we nevertheless know that the Forerunner thought of themselves quite highly, having the so-called "Mantle", and a pledge to protect all life.

The strange thing is, with their dominion of the galaxy, why did they choose this path? They could just have simply said,"we are superior to all other life, and are the pinnacle of perfection."

We know that they did not see themselves that way, though Gravemind and Mendicant bias hinted that there may be a bit of that with their criticisms.

Positions of power have the ability to corrupt the holders of those positions, and it is interesting to note that Forerunner do not seem to be that affected by that fact.

Of course, allusions from the Librarian and Didact suggest otherwise, speaking of stagnation, arrogance, and a constriction of the galaxy's inhabitants.

So what went through their minds, choosing a semi-altruistic path, rather than one of Manifest Destiny?

--Exalted Obliteration 05:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)Exalted Obliteration

Clarification
Excuse me, but I keep reading these theories that mention humans not being killed by the Halo network because of a lack of sentience. But if you will all remember, in Halo 1 I believe it was, 343 Guilty Spark said that the Halos were capable of "eradicating all forms of sentient life with enough biomass to sustain the flood." Now I don't know about you, but the word "Biomass" indicates to me that the Halos didn't kill sentients, but rather anything with enough mass for the Flood to convert. Following that logic, the only way Humanity could have survived would be to have been on the Ark at the time of firing. So, again following that logic, saying that they were a sub-species of Forerunner doesn't really make much sense at all.

Also, as for the question over the word species being used in a plural or singular sense...if someone could please provide the full sentence, the sentence itself will most likely tell you that answer.

Legend 02:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The talk of all SENTIENT life implies they kill anything with a complex enough nervous system for the flood parasite to infect.

Time
I can't prove that Forerunner=Human but the Halos and ark recognize humans and only humans as the only race that can fire the Halos. Since Iris and the terminals say that the halos were built before librarian indexed earth, humans must have been known about before earth was indexed. I admit that the halos could have been remotely updated from the ark but then what species was meant to be the reclaimers before humans were discovered. It seems like the easiest explanation is that humans were known about prior to the indexing of earth. This would also explane why Iris is so vague as well as the terminals. It also explains why alligator DNA is presented as an iris download as opposed to human DNA which is what we would expect librarian to be studying if she were talking about humans.

We also have not talked about the precursers at all, I dont have any theories about that but if someone does, please post.

picture
I was just looking at the picture on the page and something just hit me. The white spots all look like the forerunner ship, therefore it might not be a living creature at all but instead it might be a fleet of forerunner ships.

Just a theory...hear me out.
I'm just putting this out there, and it may sound ridiculous, but after getting the idea, it seems...interesting, if not completely plausible. Here we go:

What if the direct descendants of the Forerunners are...the Grunts?

Please don't laugh. Think about it. The Grunt Rebellion? Of course they'd try to rebel! Maybe there's some subconscious influence from eons past that encouraged the Grunts to rise up. Those crates of blue explosive gas from the heretic gas mine? What if that gas is some primordial form of methane? "Numerous scientific expeditions have failed to reveal what the Forerunners intended with all this damn gas" (from the description of Colossus). See? Bungie even references it! But HERE'S the smoking gun: In Halo 3, the Grunts' masks glow blue around the edges. Halo has towers that fire BLUE beams! Forerunners are Grunt ancestors! I got it!

Think what you will, but wouldn't that be a Bungie thing to pull on us?Metaridley 22:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Metaridley, you're not alone. I noticed the connection the second I saw the gas in Colossus, then immeadeatly mad a connection with the description of the level. It would make perect sence for the Forerunners to make huge amounts of methane to sustane themselves. Why were the Halos built around gas giants? Because of the huge amounts of methane readily available! Also, wouldn't it just be hillarious for the unintelligent slaves of the Covenant to be the ancestors of the most advance race the galaxy had ever seen? It all makes sence now!

Too much Speculation
Just as a reminder to everyone on here, we need to stick to the facts. Let's not forget that there was a HUGE debate after Halo 2 as to whether or not Gravemind was a Flood form. "Because Bungie didn't explicitly state it," everyone reasoned, "it could be ANYTHING!" And then it turns out that the Gravemind was exactly what it seemed to be; the final and most lethal stage of a Flood infestation. We need to use common sense to connect the dots that we've been given.

For one, there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that Humans and Forerunners are related IN A CONVENTIONAL SENSE. Anyone who has followed the IRIS ARG can see this. The servers show the Forerunners discovering Earth, and mentioning its 'unique denizens.' Anyone who suggests that they were referring to someone OTHER then Humanity needs to check their common sense levels. The 'Cradle of Life' comic clearly shows a fully evolved Homo Sapien (let's not get sidetracked with exact genuses here) observing the highly advanced activity of Forerunner machines on Earth. The Terminals, which show the conversations between the Librarian and Didact, further extrapolate on the relationship between Forerunners and Humanity.

That being said, it is obvious that while Humans are probably not 'mentally devolved versions of Forerunners' or 'Forerunners brainwashed to forget Halo' or 'super-duper clone soldiers zomg roftlcopter lawlz!111,' they still share a special relationship with the Forerunner. Why? No one can say. I can't stress that enough. We just don't know, and too much speculation causes us to come up with ridiculous theories (no offense to the 'Forerunners are Grunts!' guy) Why do Humans=Reclaimers? We don't know. From what we DO know however (Forerunners discovered Humanity, Humanity observed the Forerunners 100,000 years ago, etc) it is wrong to jump to the conclusion that we must be Forerunners IN A LITERAL SENSE. Everyone loves qouting 343, but they always forget to keep things in context.

"You truly are the child of my makers! You are Forerunner!"

Not "you are my makers." Not "you are my makers reborn." Not "you are the child of my makers, but Forerunner in a spiritual sense because you both liked to make shiny toys and wanted to conquer stuff." It is what it is. And what it is, is a mystery. We need to provide the FACTS on the Forerunner page, and keep the unhelpful speculation elsewhere.

Aaaaand this is my first time ever editing any wiki, period, so if I crash the page, feel free to hit me with a grav hammer. >_<


 * Consider that "child of my makers" could very well be a way of saying "my makers reborn". That having decided we were the special ones, they left everything to us for us to find, and that the point at which we stepped over a certain line in our development, we BECAME Forerunners, in the sense of our achievements, our mindset, our dedication to the same goals - that the term Forerunner defines not what you are, but what you DO. We, through what Guilty Spark has observed of us, have stepped past that point and become everything they were, and because of that we ARE the Forerunner reborn. An inheritance from one race to its successor not of genes, but of memes.

Just wondering, has Bungie officially stated that Iris and the other ARGS are officially canon? As far as I'm aware, only the games, books, and graphic novel have been confirmed canon, but I could be wrong.

Let's Clarify
This place has devolved into everyone making their own new section and stating their theory. I pieced together the Forerunner-Flood war once, using the terminals, so I'll use the same evidence, and try to correct the errors on this page.

Guilty Spark, while rampant, was not lying. The difference between Human and Forerunner seems to just be the fact that the Forerunner were highly advanced and died out, and the Humans stayed alive.

The Librarian, going about her work, attempting to catalogue every sentient being in the galaxy, had one final species to catalogue. This is the hazy part. It appears that they somehow were similar to the Forerunner, and had something to do with Forerunner DNA, in the Librarian's garden.

Because of Mendicant Bias' switch, the Forerunners destroyed all but some of the "Key Ships" that unlocked the Portals leading to The Ark. This lead to Humanity being placed into the Ark at the last possible second.

in Contact Harvest, we find out, thanks to Mendicant Bias, that the objects showing up in scans of Harvest of not to be Reclaimed, but are Reclaimers. This means all humans are to "reclaim" the technology the Forerunners lost, and carry on their legacy.

The only thing that's still hazy is exactly what went on with the Librarian on Earth, which is the direct connection between the Forerunners and Humans. Cody2526 08:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this area has become a total mess. There are tons forums out there where you can debate all of these theories...

As for the article itself, I think it needs to be completely rewritten. Most of what it says is theories, not facts (encyclopedias are supposed to have facts). You can argue the Human/Forerunner crap all day, and it will get absolutely nowhere. I've read both sides of the argument, and there is no piece of evidence that proves without a doubt that either side is correct. Yes, there's the "You are Forerunner" quote from 343GS, but, as we've seen, that can be argued either way. The Server 5 video and the Terminals can also be argued either way. I know that I, like everyone else here, have opinions on this subject, but that's just what they are, OPINIONS. When you edit these pages, keep your opinions out and only state the facts.

If you are to post theories, then you need to clearly state that they are theories, not try to pass them off as fact because you think you're right. --Lurono 06:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

We know that the Humans and Forerunners, we are one in the same. Also about the Librarian, going on assumption for the fact that we have no details, was it possible for Forerunner on the Ark (Dicdact), Survive and be able to make it back to earth where the Librarians last known place. Of course this would be a theory. I use this site for refrence, but it needs major clean up in the place in the Human/Forerunner part.

I also forgot to mention: It would be nice if some sort of spoiler tag was used to warn that information having to do with Contact Harvest is about to be stated... I know that I, and I'm assuming many others, have not read the book yet, and find it extremely aggravating when I'm skimming over a page and hit some spoiler from something that just came out... Just a thought ;-) --Lurono 20:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Major Cleanup 11/11/07
While cleaning up this article I:
 * 1) Fixed up a few areas that needed slight rewording to either make more sense or sound better
 * 2) Moved "Weaponry," "Art and Architecture," "Fortress Worlds," "Installation 04," "Installation 05," "Other Forerunner Structures," "Forerunner Constructs," and "Forerunner Artifacts and Technology" all under the "Forerunner Technology" section. It made more sense since all of these are examples of Forerunner tech.
 * 3) Removed the "Terminals" section. Most of it was either irrelevant or repetitive, plus we have an article devoted to the Terminals, so posting the info here was just wasting space.
 * 4) Condensed the "Forerunner and Humanity" section. Much of it was theory (essentially all of it was, actually). If people want theory, they need to go to one of the forums, this is a place for verified fact, not theory (we can argue all day over whether or not Forerunner are humans, and it will get NOWHERE, there is no evidence to prove that either side is 100% without a doubt correct)
 * Perhaps adding sections that clearly explain both sides of the argument would be a good idea, as long as they don't become too opinion cluttered like the former sections had become.

Well, hopefully this cleanup improved the page as a whole (I certainly think it did). Hopefully the page won't degenerate into a mess again.

--Lurono 04:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Contact Harvest
Truth implies that the humans are the forerunners, and the AI within the Dreadought, which would appear to be dear old Mendicant, states "My makers are my master, I will bring them safetly to the Ark." If it is Mendicant then we can safetly assume that he knows exactly what happened to the forerunners. His battle with Offensive and the effects of the blast on his crew paint a clear picture for an Advanced AI. I'm not saying that the humans are forerunners, but the arguements for the theory seem to become more and more expansive. While the arguements about Server 5 and the Comic ar starting to get a little stale and tired. NO one is saying that the forerunner's survived but that they are the same. Perhaps the Precursors planets life within the galaxy and placed the Forerunner/Human genes on different worlds. Now I'm sorry if you read this and it spoils anything but an encyclopedia doesn't warn you about spoilers when it tells you about the end of World War Two now does it?

ProphetofTruth 02:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Forerunner Biology
I noticed that there isn't much written on this page written about the Forerunners' biology. Granted, we haven't been given much information about it, but I noticed something very interesting while I was reading through the Beastarium. 343 Guilty Spark writes that the Reclaimer(Master Chief): "suffers no physical ailments, other than Homo Sapiens' very truncated lifespan and superheated(mammalian) metabolism." While speculative and open to interpretation, this might be evidence that the Forerunner were more long-lived than humans and not mammals. I'm going to mention it in the trivia section, if no one has any objections. 75.183.43.187 17:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Cato

Who else as noticed that the Forerunners could be an flying or treeclimbing species,(or at least their ancestors)they seem to have no fear of hights, look at the Gaurdian map with its gravlifts that launch you over seemingly bottomless chasms, and look at thier chocies of buildings, you only have to look as far as any Forerunner buildings (Construt for one). This is a valid theroy. Tsunami-058 16:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

A new thought
Concerning the Forerunner - Human controversy, I had a strange idea. Iris definitely points to the Forerunners not being humans, Contact Harvest indicates that they are humans, and Halo 3 can be interpreted either way. Is it possible that Bungie intended this to be an unsolvable mystery all along? Maybe they are just trying to mess with us and even they don't know if the Forerunners are supposed to be human or not. After all, Bungie and 7th Column are trying to take over the world. Perhaps the first step along the road to world domination is to drive the entire internet community mad in search of the answer to a question that cannot be answered! Once our minds have been reduced to mush, they can use us as zombie warriors in their new army!!!

Just throwing it out there. Think about it...

That would be pretty funny..nice touch.

On the other hand, you may be right. Given Bungie's record of complex and subtle storytelling, that would not surprise me in the least.

By putting out all of this seemingly contradictory information, and seeing the extensive and presently dwindling debates around the issue being generated would make sense.

To be honest, I don't think that it is an issue anymore, for it seems pretty obvious that Humanity and the Forerunner are pretty much the same race, with the former being given the Mantle by the extinct latter.

Also, the story requires that Humans are Forerunner, given the whole existential dilemna that Truth and co. found, and how they started the war because of it.

I've also noticed that no one is really debating the issue anymore, so I suppose that it is a dead issue.

Exalted Obliteration 01:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, there're plenty of ways for the Forerunners to be human-but-not-quite-human. H. sapiens idaltu became extinct a while before the Forerunners did...on this planet. Maybe they just left? Or the Neanderthals? There were a myriad of pre-Sapiens humans. We could be divergent branches of the same evolutionary tree. Of course, that depends upon personal views and beliefs.  Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  02:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)