Talk:Body separation glitch

FP legs and hands
Ok I must be missing something here. If you look at tags using Halo Map Tools (or many other modding/map building programs), you will see that the model geometry tag named 'FP_hands' (or something along those lines) is listed. This IS the model geometry tag for the hands the player sees on the screen that do the reloading, firing, throwing of grenades, etc. It is called first person because the player is seeing the hands as they would if the player was actually that character. The same is true for the legs. The player looks down and sees hte character model's legs as if the player were that character, aka first person viewpoint. Third person view is seeing the entirety of the body (or perhaps some of it) from a perspective that is not the character's own (meaning not in that character's head). This is why the leg models in Halo 2 and Halo 3 are called first person. If the legs are not first person, kindly explain to me why.  ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 02:50, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * First of all, thank you for settling on a compromise and not starting a revert war. I appreciate that.
 * Second of all, I'm aware of the FP arms -- I'm actually (AFAIK) the first person to ever mention them on this wiki (first in Corpse Respawn, when I had an incomplete understanding, and later in First-Person Shooter, when I learned more about them). But for FP legs,... If you look at the screenshots in the article about the H3 Corpse Respawn glitch, you'll find that a player-corpse's legs are (in first-person view) lying on the ground, while their FP head is upright -- they're completely mismatched. Furthermore, the legs possess the same level of detail in FP and 3P.
 * Of course, there is the fact that in FP, the legs are straight (and actually backwards, I think), whereas in the 3P screenshot, they are splayed out, and bent...
 * But a living player's legs are never straight under normal circumstances -- a living, standing player always stands with their legs kinda bent... And the FP legs wouldn't mimic the 3P legs of a dead body. (Corpse Respawn proves that the FP arms don't mimic the 3P arms of a dead body.) So perhaps the corpse was (in the FP screenshots) simply lying straight. (I took the shots, but I really don't remember -- and since I'm currently without a 360, I can't just check the original Film.)
 * IOW, the FP screenshots show the legs lying straight, which never happens for a live body. There's no (known) reason it would happen for a dead body, either. However, the legs in FP (straight) don't match the legs in 3P (bent).
 * Now I'm confused... Could you perhaps provide sources for the existence of FP legs? (Perhaps a link to some Halo 2 Vista tags, or screenshots of them being used in a modding program?) I think that sources -- more than anything else -- would clear this up. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  03:43, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I am horribly confused here...I am not talking about a dead player model. I am talking about a live one, and that by positioning the player correctly (technically, by placing the player's camera correctly) so that the player can see the entire FP legs model. What I am referring to as the FP legs model is the actual legs you can see walking and running and dodging and whatnot by looking down. There are no mods required to see this; when playing Halo 2 or Halo 3 simply look all the way down in FP mode (normal playing mode-drop those support weapons!) and you will see some legs. They belong to the player, and they are animated to move as if you were looking down at your own legs as you were running in real life. This legs model is merely pinched at the end, as this part cannot be seen by the player unless the camera is positioned to take advantage of this body separation glitch. Perhaps then, what I'm mentioning here does not belong in this article, since you are not really separating the players body so much as seeing the entire FP legs model. I am not referring in any way to the corpse respawn glitch, or to anything third-person. Only FP.

I'm trying to get some screenshots of the specific example I'm citing. As I don't believe there any on the internet, I'll have to make my own, and right now I don't know when I'll be able to get on Halo 2. When you existence of the FP legs however, I find that perplexing. You are aware of the existence of the arms on your main screen as FP arms. That is correct. The FP legs serve the exact same function as the FP hands-to portray realism and move as if they were your hands and legs. I don't really know how else to explain it. Either I'm just not that great at explaining this (which I wouldn't be too surprised), you are not understanding this, or the model to which I am calling FP legs is not called such (but that makes no sense to me seeing as how the arms are labelled FP).

Also, you're welcome for coming here instead of triggering a 'revert war'. Honestly I think I may be posting this tidbit on the wrong article.  ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 14:37, December 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * First of all, I think this is best suited in this article. It's true enough -- the body is being visibly separated, since it's "pinched" at the waist. As for my comments on FP legs, let me explain: (and I apologize for the length of this post)
 * Corpse Respawn is a glitch in Halo 3 that causes a player to respawn as a dead body. This means that they're in first-person view while they're dead. Now, a player-corpse (a player that has spawned as a corpse) can see their own legs -- pinched at the waist, like in the Body Separation Glitch. The player-corpse's camera is upright, but their legs are lying on the ground. This would seem to imply that the legs they are seeing (in first-person view) are the legs of their third-person body.
 * This implication can be made because if there were first-person legs, these legs would function like FP args -- they would be animated separately. Now, we know that FP legs wouldn't be able to mimic the third-person legs of a dead body because FP arms can't mimic the third-person arms of a dead body. (This is demonstrated by Corpse Respawn screenshots, where in first-person view, the player-corpse holds a Battle Rifle -- holding it in a position that is entirely inconsistent with the actual location and posing of their body.) So why, then, would the player-corpse see their own legs lying on the ground if their FP arms aren't doing the same?
 * Now, there are only two reasons why this would happen:
 * They are seeing their third-person legs.
 * The first-person legs are using some kind of weird "default" or glitch animation.
 * Here's the thing, though. The Corpse Respawn article has four screenshots, three of which are relevant to this discussion. Two screenshots show the legs lying flat and perfectly straight from first-person view, whereas the other shows a player-corpse from third-person view. In the third-person shot, their legs are splayed and bent, not straight. The legs don't match in first- and third-person view. This would seem to support the second animation. But we can't really be sure -- as I said, the screenshots show different moments in time, so it's possible that the first-person screenshots were taken when the body was lying straight. (My corpse was smacked around a bit when I took the screenshots. It was also teabagged. In first-person. Not fun at the time, but actually kinda hilarious in hindsight.)
 * Now why is any of this relevant? Well, it's relevant because the chances of Halo 2 using a different system for legs are slim to none. I don't think Bungie would waste time overhauling the system for a player's legs. It's not high on their priority list. So whatever is true about the legs in Halo 3 is probably (if not certainly) also true in Halo 2.
 * The upshot of all of this is that Halo 3 casts (some) doubt on the existence of FP legs in Halo 2. Without a source that proves the existence of FP legs, we can't be absolutely certain that FP legs are used at all. Such proof can't be particularly hard to come by (if one has a copy of Halo 2 Vista)... I say this because Halo Custom Edition uses tags in maps for FP arms, and tags can be proven (through logical deduction) to exist in Halo 2 and Halo 3... Which means that Halo 2 uses tags for FP arms. So if FP legs exist, then logic dictates that Halo 2 uses tags for them as well.
 * I happen to know that Halo 2 Vista can be modded much like Halo Custom Edition... So if FP legs exist, then there should be proof of them somewhere on the internet -- a screenshot of a program showing the tags' data, or a file download of the tags themselves... But there should be something. The best bet to resolve this issue with 100% certainty would be to find such tags. Once I post this, I will start searching Halomaps.org for FP leg tags -- they have an H2V section IIRC.
 * As for the purpose of the FP legs, however... Legs seem to have the same level of detail in first- and third-person... The only reason I could think of to use them, then, would be if Bungie couldn't program the game to hide every part of the third-person model except the legs... But if that was the case, and if the level of detail is the same, then I think it would be much more efficient to just code the game to show the 3P legs, rather than create an identical duplicate model for FP legs. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  23:33, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now why is any of this relevant? Well, it's relevant because the chances of Halo 2 using a different system for legs are slim to none. I don't think Bungie would waste time overhauling the system for a player's legs. It's not high on their priority list. So whatever is true about the legs in Halo 3 is probably (if not certainly) also true in Halo 2.
 * The upshot of all of this is that Halo 3 casts (some) doubt on the existence of FP legs in Halo 2. Without a source that proves the existence of FP legs, we can't be absolutely certain that FP legs are used at all. Such proof can't be particularly hard to come by (if one has a copy of Halo 2 Vista)... I say this because Halo Custom Edition uses tags in maps for FP arms, and tags can be proven (through logical deduction) to exist in Halo 2 and Halo 3... Which means that Halo 2 uses tags for FP arms. So if FP legs exist, then logic dictates that Halo 2 uses tags for them as well.
 * I happen to know that Halo 2 Vista can be modded much like Halo Custom Edition... So if FP legs exist, then there should be proof of them somewhere on the internet -- a screenshot of a program showing the tags' data, or a file download of the tags themselves... But there should be something. The best bet to resolve this issue with 100% certainty would be to find such tags. Once I post this, I will start searching Halomaps.org for FP leg tags -- they have an H2V section IIRC.
 * As for the purpose of the FP legs, however... Legs seem to have the same level of detail in first- and third-person... The only reason I could think of to use them, then, would be if Bungie couldn't program the game to hide every part of the third-person model except the legs... But if that was the case, and if the level of detail is the same, then I think it would be much more efficient to just code the game to show the 3P legs, rather than create an identical duplicate model for FP legs. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  23:33, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * I happen to know that Halo 2 Vista can be modded much like Halo Custom Edition... So if FP legs exist, then there should be proof of them somewhere on the internet -- a screenshot of a program showing the tags' data, or a file download of the tags themselves... But there should be something. The best bet to resolve this issue with 100% certainty would be to find such tags. Once I post this, I will start searching Halomaps.org for FP leg tags -- they have an H2V section IIRC.
 * As for the purpose of the FP legs, however... Legs seem to have the same level of detail in first- and third-person... The only reason I could think of to use them, then, would be if Bungie couldn't program the game to hide every part of the third-person model except the legs... But if that was the case, and if the level of detail is the same, then I think it would be much more efficient to just code the game to show the 3P legs, rather than create an identical duplicate model for FP legs. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  23:33, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * As for the purpose of the FP legs, however... Legs seem to have the same level of detail in first- and third-person... The only reason I could think of to use them, then, would be if Bungie couldn't program the game to hide every part of the third-person model except the legs... But if that was the case, and if the level of detail is the same, then I think it would be much more efficient to just code the game to show the 3P legs, rather than create an identical duplicate model for FP legs. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  23:33, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * As for the purpose of the FP legs, however... Legs seem to have the same level of detail in first- and third-person... The only reason I could think of to use them, then, would be if Bungie couldn't program the game to hide every part of the third-person model except the legs... But if that was the case, and if the level of detail is the same, then I think it would be much more efficient to just code the game to show the 3P legs, rather than create an identical duplicate model for FP legs. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  23:33, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I am so lost right now. I understand your explanation of corpse respawning fine, and your logic for 3P and all that, but what I am not getting here is why you think that the legs you see when you look down in the normal player mode are 3P. That makes no sense to me (I am not insulting your logic or thinking here, I'm just stating what I think). If you believe the legs seen in FP mode (normal player view) are actually 3P, then why are the hands FP, and not 3P? The legs and arms models are in the same person. I believe they are FP because the FP hands are proven to exist, so logic would dictate the the legs are likewise FP.

You may be correct in several aspects, one being that Bungie probably did not make an entire new legs model; they probably took the 3P model and 'cut' it at the waist for use as the legs model seen in FP view. The pinch I was referring to is merely how Bungie 'sealed' the legs model up. It isn't that by seeing the pinch the player is separating the FP elements from the 3P ones; the player is just seeing the legs model in their entirety. If you play Halo: PC and use bitterbanana's 3P hack, you can also zoom out in FP view. By zooming out, you will see that the FP hands are merely arms that are modeled to the shoulders, just floating there. That's all they are. The same is with the legs, but instead of floating there, the legs are connected together at the waist, and sealed at the top with that 'pinch'.

I apologize for not understanding this. It seems we are on different pages here. I'm having difficulty understanding how corpse respawning applies to seeing the legs in FP view.  ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 00:45, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * In Corpse Respawn, from first-person view, the legs are lying down. FP legs wouldn't be coded to match the pose of a corpse, so why would they be lying down? [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  02:21, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

But that's just it. I'm not saying that the FP legs seen in The Uprising are the same as legs seen from the FP view that belong to a dead body. I am saying that you are seeing all of the FP legs model, still from the FP view. I am not saying that the player has separated himself from his legs somehow or that the player is seeing legs that belong to a 3P model. I am saying that the player is seeing what his FP legs look like from a 3P view. I hope I'm explaining this well and I apologize for still being confused.  ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 04:20, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

You're saying that they're seeing their FP legs from a third-person view, kind of. But what I'm wonder is, are there FP legs? Corpse Respawn casts doubt on their existence. Halomaps.org's H2V section is broken, so I can't find any tags for FP legs anywhere.  DavidJCobb  04:37, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I am a frequent at H2V and HCE and doubt you would find any such tags. I believe there are some such tags on HCE, but they are not the 'official' tags sued in the games; they are recreations. Answer me this: when you play Halo 2 or Halo 3 and look down, do you not notice legs that move when you move? <span style="background-color:darkgray; color:white; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px"> ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 04:42, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I see legs that move when I move. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"> DavidJCobb  07:55, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok. That is the FP legs model I'm talking about. It is this that I see in its entirety when I position myself in that area on the Uprising. It's just me jamming the camera viewpoint in an area that is panned out far enough for the legs model to be seen. <span style="background-color:darkgray; color:white; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px"> ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 07:58, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you're saying. The Uprising glitch makes the entirety of the FP legs model seen. The problem I'm talking about is that the Corpse Respawn glitch is creating an inconsistency. I fully believe (now, anyway) that there are FP legs, but the Corpse Respawn glitch has an oddity that (appears to) contradict the existence of FP legs.

I was simply wondering (after you convinced me) if we could find FP leg tags on the web, but since we can't, I'll disregard the Corpse Respawn oddity. In other words, you have pwned me. Nice work :D <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"> DavidJCobb  20:41, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for understanding. I regret to say, however, that I still do not know what inconsistency you are referring to. Don't think I'm saying that you are doing a poor job detailing your assertion; it's more than likely me. From what I can tell, in this Corpse Respawn glitch, the player is seeing his FP legs, except they are not attached to his 'player frame' anymore (by this I mean the 'framework' of FP components: the hands and legs, and whatever is attached to them), so it's like the player is seeing his legs in an unanimated fashion. In this glitch, the player still has normal FP hands, but are the FP legs there as well? If they are, then I would say that this glitch causes you to see your FP legs because the game thinks the player is dead; however, rather than rendering an entire 3P body, the game is ocnfused and instead renders the FP legs because technically, you are still alive (hence the glitch). If the FP legs are not there, then it seems the game 'compromised' the fact that you spawned as a corpse and the fact that you are alive by killing your FP legs and keeping the other FP components active. It's kind of a lame explanation, but it's all I can come up with for now.

And I wouldn't say I've pwned you...it was a good debate <span style="background-color:darkgray; color:white; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px"> ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:darkgray; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:darkgray; color:gold; -moz-border-radiusbottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 20:51, December 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * *Confusion*- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 20:47, December 13, 2009 (UTC)