Talk:List of inconsistencies in the Halo series

Halo Wars-Halo Escalation
So it's been confirmed that it's the Spirit of Fire. In the first issue, it was said that the ship they found had been missing for thirty years. The Spirit went missing in 2531. This comic supposedly takes place in 2558. Super confused.Maginot Sphere (talk) 13:19, 3 March 2014 (EST)
 * The summary probably is meant to mean "nearly thirty years", as opposed to "thirty years." Anyways, I reverted your Escalation edit, as Issue 6's summary confirms the lost ship to be the Spirit of Fire.-- 13:37, 3 March 2014 (EST)

Mark IV in Prologue
Please discuss it here and keep it civil.— subtank   19:08, 7 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Josh Holmes has stated the armor isn't canon quite a few times. Some may argue that the Halo 4 EVU contradicts that but that doesn't matter, the word of a developer trumps that of extra media every time.
 * - User:JJAB91


 * In my opinion both are "the word of a developer". 343I put together the H4:EVG and now Josh Holmes gave you two explanations for the inconsistency. One was from a real-world perspective. The other, he simply says it's not canon. Nonetheless, its an inconsistency that shouldn't be disregarded. If 343I didn't include that explanation in the guide than there'd be no reason to point out the armor discrepancy (at least after the twitter post). Also I noticed he didn't say anything about what was said in the EVG. This situation is similar to how Frank O Connor said the ONI PRO-49776 isn't a prowler, yet 343I created the Sahara-class heavy prowler which retains the exact same design. It raises more questions than answers.-- Killamin7  [Comm |Files ] 21:06, 7 June 2014 (EDT)


 * To be blunt, this isn't a debate over whether the armor's appearance in the cutscene is canonical. The problem is that this page is supposed to list all inconsistencies in the series. Josh Holmes' statement very well may supersede the "Mark IV variant" explanation in the hierarchy of canon, but the fact is that Source A gives one explanation for the issue while Source B takes a different approach. That being said, the whole story (meaning both the EVG ' s and Holmes' accounts) will be represented by this article.-- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 22:05, 7 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Well then may I make an edit request? I request this "However, Halo 4: The Essential Visual Guide establishes that John's suit's superficial upgrades are based on a variant of the Mark IV, retroactively indicating that the suits seen in the Prologue are in fact this particular variant" be slightly changed to this "However, Halo 4: The Essential Visual Guide establishes that John's suit's superficial upgrades are based on a variant of the Mark IV, possibly indicating that the suits seen in the Prologue are in fact this particular variant" As while the EVU states that John's custom MKVI is based on an earlier line of MKIV it is never directly stated that what we see in Halo 4's prologue is that MKIV, so I request this minor change as since it is never directly stated it leaves it open for interpretation and later changes, as well as pleasing both sides and ending this edit war. - User:JJAB91


 * I know the page is already locked, but I concur with Braidenvl, my problem wasn't the authority of Josh Holmes' statement, it was that the other explanation was removed. --  Qura 'Morhek   The Autocrat     of Morheka   03:03, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * I'm with Braidenvl and Morhek - the issue here was the removal of the EVG's explanation, not what Holmes tweeted. Like Killamin7, I'd also to question the logic of deferring to direct developer statements over likewise official media: over the years we've had plenty of more or less silly "explanations" to appease the fans - that the M7 SMG was still "in the factory" during Reach or that the Skirmishers were all wiped out during the same game (oh yes no, the Kilo-Five Trilogy cannot be canon now!). Or Frankie's aforementioned prowler comment. Personally, I would prefer if Holmes' statement superseded the EVG's explanation since I'm not a fan of the utter lack of a logical visual continuity in the MJOLNIR series' development, but it doesn't justify removing perfectly valid information. I would have no problem with changing the "retroactively" to "possibly", though I don't see the point - the intention of the EVG's statement was crystal clear. I mean, consider a scenario where the EVG isn't referring to the Prologue suits: that there is a canonical Mark IV variant identical to the one in Prologue, but the armor in Prologue isn't that variant but is instead wholly non-canonical. In that case, what was the point of the EVG's claim? To establish there is in fact a Mark IV variant identical to the Chief's Halo 4 suit that we never see, because the only feasible appearance of that suit isn't canon? --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 08:40, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Then again the EVG never stated that the MKIV looked exactly John's custom armor, just that his armor "resembled" the MKIV. User:JJAB91

Article reorganization
Wouldn't it be more practical and cohesive to do away with the separate "Discrepancies" and "Conflict" sections and just have a single list where each piece of media would have its own "Internal" and "External" sections for both categories of discrepancies? Having the titles appear twice on the page is rather redundant. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 00:20, 1 September 2014 (EDT)


 * That sounds much more efficient. I suggest retooling "Inconsistencies rectified in re-releases" into a broad "Resolved inconsistencies" section. It could list issues that haven't been rectified officially but have adequately straightforward explanations. -- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 00:33, 1 September 2014 (EDT)


 * Agreed. I wonder if we should also recognize one additional type of discrepancy: logical inconsistencies. These are ones that don't contradict a specific quote or page number but otherwise don't quite work in the setting and at worst break its internal logic. Examples of these include Thel regarding Jai as a "demon" for hiding his face in TCP, Forerunners suddenly having stargates in TTW and now Escalation, or the Sangheili apparently having no analogue for the rank of Fleet Admiral in Glasslands. Or should these still be grouped into the external inconsistencies category? --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 04:18, 1 September 2014 (EDT)


 * Giving indirect contradictions their own section is definitely a good idea. Indeed, violating the spirit of Halo isn't much different from violating the letter. How about something like this? -- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 11:01, 1 September 2014 (EDT)


 * That would work, though it's debatable whether the implied discrepancies need their own main section as opposed to just a subsection under each work (like the way the page is currently organized). The list is already quite long so certain titles would be appearing on the page at least twice (see this edit for an example of how the list/index looks with some entries added). And I'm not sure there even are enough implicit discrepancies worthy of mention to warrant their own section tree (given the subsectioning by media type). --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 01:02, 2 September 2014 (EDT)

Not sure what I was thinking there. This iteration should be better. -- Our vengeance is at hand.  ( Talk to me. ) 10:16, 2 September 2014 (EDT)


 * Much better. Tuckerscreator was actually working on a dedicated article for resolved inconsistencies which would trim this page even further. Last I heard it was coming along nicely, but I haven't seen him around here in a while so I'm not sure if that's still the case. Regardless, we can put the resolved ones on this page for now and then later move them into Tucker's article when (if?) he gets it finished. --Jugus (Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 12:19, 2 September 2014 (EDT)

Air Force
About Thorne and the Air Force... I've never understood what the problem was. He just talks about the US Air Force. It doesn't mean he is unfamiliar with the concept of an "Air Force" in general, let alone the existence of the UNSC's Air Force. He seems more fascinated by the splitting than by the Air Force itself. "A military group called the Air Force split off the Army to form its own branch." It sounds vague for sure, but it's supposed to reflect the historical aspect of it. I could say: "A group called the Continental Army preceded the United States Army." Yet, I'm familiar with both. And don't forget that from Thorne's point of view the US military is something distant, from the past, even though the names are the same. You wouldn't talk about a 15th century Navy in the same way as you would talk about a 21st century Navy. Imrane-117 (talk) 15:01, 31 March 2015 (EDT)
 * I totally agree. I've always interpreted Thorne's phrasing as, "The Air Force went independent and the rest is history." The part where he's unsure whether there were Spartan-IIs other than the Master Chief is another story, though. -- Our answer is at hand.  Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 15:15, 31 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Actually, it doesn't reference the US explicitly in its wording and uses the term "Air Force" in quotes as though that is the unusual item in question. It later calls out the first Chief of Staff by name so a reference to US is implied but indirectly. It still doesn't explain the use of "Air Force" in quotation marks since the UNSC's branch has an identical name. I was similarly puzzled by this as UNSC Air Force references have been around at least since Halo: Reach.. -ScaleMaster117 (talk) 16:31, 31 March 2015 (EDT)
 * The quotes on "Air Force" are also what I take issue with. Why say "a military group called the 'Air Force'" and not just "the US Air Force" or "the Air Force of the United States" or something of that sort if he wanted to differentiate it from the UNSC one? Though I can definitely understand the "the rest is history" interpretation, it seems like something one would use if he were a part of the Air Force himself and felt like expressing pride in his service in a particularly dramatic way. But with his lack of ties to the Air Force and the way he refers to the "Air Force" as historical trivia and not present-day reality (by making no distinction as to what entity's air force he's talking about) I'm more inclined to see it as a discrepancy. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 03:51, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * My understanding is that Thorne (being American) doesn't feel the need to point out "US" before Air Force. For him, the UNSC Air Force is simply the continuation of his country's original Air Force. Just as a Frenchman would see the UNSC Air Force as a continuation of his country's original Air Force. So Thorne can talk about a group called the "Air Force" and Carl Spaatz because it's his own history. And as of the 26th century, it's probably quite vestigial (Imagine the difference between that Air Force and the UNSC Air Force). As for the quote marks, I think they're most likely used to emphasize the name. What was just a group became the "Air Force". Imrane-117 (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

(reset indent) Bumping this. I still feel like the quotation marks and Thorne's vagueness were there to designate the Air Force as a new entity at the time. We're focusing too much on this sentence, I think. Imrane-117 (talk) 19:05, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

H2A bookend cutscenes
So with Halo 5: Guardians now out it's pretty clear the scenes with Locke in H2A didn't actually happen. Ideas on how to proceed? Sith Venator  ( Dank Memes ) 00:38, 9 November 2015 (EST)


 * I'd say just list it as retconned/non-canon (like so much marketing stuff leading up to Halo 5). -- NightHammer (talk)(contribs) 00:41, 9 November 2015 (EST)

It felt to me like they still fit, mostly. It was during their flight that Arbiter found out about Locke being a "hunter" and hunting the Master Chief, both of which he's already familiar with by the time Locke meets him again at the camp. As for why they're on a Lich and not a Phantom, we see in "Swords of Sanghelios" opening cutscene that Liches can carry Phantoms and that the crew can move from one to the other. So for the most part, I think it still fits. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 00:46, 9 November 2015 (EST)


 * Besides the sudden attitude change from Thel, there's the issue of the Lich landing and dropping everyone into battle at the end of the second scene. Sith Venator Mega Blastoise.gif ( Dank Memes ) 00:58, 9 November 2015 (EST)

Like the lines Arby said say in the E3 cutscene trailers but didn't say in game and the gameplay of said trailer. Anything in the game itself I consider non-canon in my headcanon. Alertfiend - Team Chief 00:50, 9 November 2015 (EST)


 * At the very least, Grim said the Elites' combat harnesses were as canon as the Storm armors. Imrane-117 (talk) 01:03, 9 November 2015 (EST)

Intrepid Eye controlling Mjolnir
Regarding this revision: While she's a Forerunner AI, she's still running in a reduced capacity on UNSC hardware at the time and so subject to the same technical limitations as Cortana was. If Mjolnir only responds to human neural impulses, it's a bit hard to imagine how Intrepid Eye, Forerunner in origin or not, could overcome a hardware constraint like that without Forerunner tech at her disposal. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 00:42, 13 November 2015 (EST)


 * I would assume Intrepid Eye being able to mimic neural impulses via the neural implant. We do know that Forerunner Ancillas are far more advanced then Human AIs (I dare say even Cortana) and it would not be hard for them to find a work around. Alertfiend - Team Chief 01:14, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Having not read Last Light yet, I don't know enough about the situation to answer conclusively. But I do think we don't know if enough about Cortana's restrictions on controlling the armor itself that we can't conclusively say it's impossible for every AI, especially ones that are two Tech Tiers more advanced. Is the restriction a direct programming law or a hardware inability? Cortana's found creative ways around her own programming restrictions that Halsey's wrote, and there have been parts where she's taken brief control of part of John's suit systems like his shields to make an EMP or zap an infection form. There's also prior examples of more advanced beings doing big things with old hardware, such as Gravemind repurposing In Amber Clad's slipspace engine to get it precisely into High Charity. For a human AI controlling Mjolinir might be indeed impossible, but for a Forerunner AI they have a lot more programming potential to work with.

The "replicating neural impulses" was just a guess, but there are indeed ways to mimic it even today, such as electroconvulsive therapy, which can make your limbs move involuntarily. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 02:05, 13 November 2015 (EST)


 * Here's the full quote from FoR:
 * ''John had a sudden flash - AIs handled a great deal of point defense on Naval operations. "Can she control the MJOLNIR armor?" He wasn't sure he liked that.
 * "No. Cortana resides in the interface between your mind and the suit, Master Chief. You will find your reaction time greatly improved. She will be be translating the impulses in your motor cortex directly into motion - she can't make you send the impulses."
 * Last Light does not specifically mention how Intrepid Eye goes about taking over the armor. Her control of the suit is not differentiated from her control of any of the other Forerunner or human machines she commandeers; the greatest difficulty she seems to have is in fighting against Fred's attempts to keep in control.
 * I think our best bet is to include the inconsistency, with our possible explanation. Right now we have two canon sources which disagree: one that has an AI taking control of MJOLNIR, and one that explicitly states that it is not possible, with no canon explanation for the discrepancy. Without an explanation from 343 or the author, it's still an inconsistency and any explanation is speculative.--Emblem 1.jpg  Rusty - 112  Admin  comm 20:54, 13 November 2015 (EST)


 * If it was a Human AI then yes it would be an inconsistency, however it is a Forerunner Ancilla and I doubt Halsey know what they were capable of. Alertfiend - Team Chief 21:03, 13 November 2015 (EST)


 * I'm good with including the entry with the explanation then. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 02:36, 14 November 2015 (EST)

Superluminal
"Benjamin Giraud discovers an array capable of superluminal communications in a pre-Human-Covenant War ONI facility on Bliss, yet he does not find this out of the ordinary as such technology did not exist before the 2550s. According to Halo: Contact Harvest, by the beginning of the war, messages carried aboard starships were humanity's only means of FTL communication."

- -

I'm uncertain about this example. For one, it's revealed the array was a trap by ONI to catch Ben, so it's likely to have been built in the post-war era where super-luminal FTL has been reverse-engineered by humanity. Second, he may have assumed it was secret ONI tech they kept to themselves before the war. Being a interstellar government security agency, it'd seem plausible to him that they'd get first dibs on the most advanced tech to exist at the time. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 02:51, 18 December 2015 (EST)


 * It did still strike me as off that he didn't even spare one line to wonder how it's possible that this massively impactful technology that had just panned out a few years ago was already in existence so many years back. Especially in light of the very shady circumstances involved, which would reasonably be grounds for some serious suspicion. It's certainly possible that he might've taken it for granted that ONI had had FTL comms for years, but the lack of acknowledgment of that (even after it's discovered to be a trap) is what makes it noteworthy IMO. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 03:00, 18 December 2015 (EST)

Hm. Then maybe it should be rewritten to make it clearer that the inconsistency is his reaction, not the array itself. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 03:27, 18 December 2015 (EST)


 * Perhaps. I thought the "yet he does not find this out of the ordinary" part would make it obvious enough it's about his reaction, but I suppose it could be clearer. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 03:45, 18 December 2015 (EST)

Reach
What "date retcons" that were corrected by the Data Drops?
 * Dr Halsey already mentions the Covenant infiltration of Reach as of July 2552 in her diary.
 * In the Adjunct of The Fall of Reach, Keyes sends a message to Kopano mentioning that he disagrees with the sacrifice of Reach. The message is not properly dated but it's definitely during the preparations for RED FLAG. He already knew the planet was attacked.
 * "Blunt Instruments" revealed that the Covenant had already attacked Tribute in the Epsilon Eridani system. The sequel, Halo: Blood Line, was set in August before the Fall of Reach (as said by both Fred Van Lente and Kevin Grace from 343i in his interview included after Blood Line). The history of Black Team (2009-2010) is actually the first time when it was ever mentioned that the Epsilon Eridani system was attacked during July/August—with the dates being given properly with Reach, Dr Halsey's journal, etc.
 * The Data Drops were only released in September and October, 2011, more than a year later. So the universe had already established the events properly, and expanding on The Fall of Reach ' s story does not mean inconsistencies. So don't revert my edit, though you can add another example other than Reach. Imrane-117 (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

The article summary read this: There have been a number of cases in which an apparent inconsistency arises within an individual piece of media, only to receive a canonical workaround in another source; Halo: Reach and the Data Drops are an example of this.

The Data Drops are an example of consistency correction because 1. they explain why the S-IIs and crew of the Pillar of Autumn were not aware of the previous battles on Reach, 2. they reveal why the Long Night of Solace wasn't either boarded instead or immediately Super MACed, 3. they also explain why ODSTs were aboard, why M90s do not appear in Halo Anniversary, and why the Autumn had external thrusters. The previous works, aka the Fall of Reach re-release, Halsey's journal, etc, do mention that the battle is being kept secret to rectify the dates, but not why, as well as lacking the other corrections. Since Data Drop does that with more detail, that's why it was listed there.

If however you still feel that the Data Drops are not the best example, then it would be better to amend the paragraph to provide a better one rather than leaving it blank, such as writing: There have been a number of cases in which an apparent inconsistency arises within an individual piece of media, only to receive a canonical workaround in another source; Halo: Reach and Dr. Halsey's personal journal are an example of this.'' Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 19:23, 27 March 2016 (EDT)


 * In fact, I don't really like considering as an inconsistency—or a potential inconsistency—something that is created in order to expand on an original scenario (e.g.: Bungie complexifying the events of Reach). For me, a real inconsistency that was "fixed" afterwards was the Scarab's designation, for example. The Waypoint article clearly established that both the Halo 2 and the Halo 3/Reach models had the same designation (Type-47) due to a UNSC administration quirk, and proceeded to give more detailed designations (Type-47A Protos and Type-47B Deutoros). That's the example I wanted to add, something clear and simple, without the whole expanded universe of Reach including 5 or 6 sources dealing with the events. Though I felt maybe the Scarab example was too minor. Imrane-117 (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2016 (EDT)