Talk:Jul 'Mdama's Covenant

Jumping the gun?
Isn't it a bit early to claim the new Storm Grunts and Jackals are 'subspecies'? Artistic license should come into consideration here regardless of changes to how the enemies actually look. The Godzilla suit of today looks different than the ones in prior films, it's still the same character though. Manwiththegun 15:35, 13 August 2012 (EDT)


 * The Halo Bulletin 5.9.12 explicitly states that the new Grunts are canonically different from those in previous titles. These differences are not just real-world aesthetic changes; they actually represent another in-universe variation of the Unggoy. Indeed, the majority of the Bulletin is devoted to discussing and theorizing why the new Grunts look different from those who've come before: "As for how the Grunts of past Halo games and Halo 4 compare: Are they different species, a result of natural mutation, selective breeding, or genetic mutation within a single species? We’re not ready to show our cards here just yet. We can say that there are certain species on Earth which exhibit extraordinary differences within their kind (Great Dane vs. Pomeranian) and that there are vastly numerous species similar enough to categorically lump them together (look up Plover)." The Bulletin says that a more concrete explanation for these physical differences will be given in due time.


 * The morphological variation among the Kig-Yar has been explained both here and in the revised Encyclopedia as the result of divergent evolution on different moons, planetoids, and asteroids in the Y'Deio system. For example, the Skirmishers come from a satellite with higher gravity than Eayn, causing them to evolve much heavier muscles than their kin. Considering that the straight-beaked Jackals of Halo 2, the slope-beaked Jackals of Halo 3 through Anniversary, and the dromaeosaur-like Skirmishers all belong to the same species, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that the Jackals in Halo 4 represent yet another phenotype; the real-world Galapagos finches have a similar, (though less extreme), degree of morphological diversity.


 * Consider society on Earth prior to the Halo Array's activation. Several distinct species and subspecies of the homo genus were all lumped together as humanity, like the aforementioned plover. It is entirely possible that the Unggoy and the Kig-Yar societies are structured in a similar manner, with different species of the same genus all categorized as the same race. Overall, think of all these aesthetic changes in a Watsonian manner rather than a Doylist one. --Courage never dies. 17:34, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

I'm interested in the idea that the variations in Jackal/Grunt morphology don't conform to Earthly taxonomic conventions - after all, these are alien species, and their evolutionary history might be very weird indeed. It would add a whole new interesting layer to the fiction behind these things - and plus, anything's a better explanation than just saying "Well, we got tired of the old Grunts and Jackals so we made ourselves some brand-new ones." SPARTAN-347 22:47, 13 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Fair enough, I just was curious as to whether these alternations were artistic license or not. Manwiththegun 16:54, 14 August 2012 (EDT)

The Storm.
They aren't "Covenant Storm", they are just "The Storm".ArchedThunder 22:07, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

Elite Changes
Anyone note any changes to the Sangheili physiology? The Grunts and Jackals are pretty obvious, but the Elite look the same. Bioniclepluslotr 10:02, 19 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Nothing significant enough to warrant a canonical explanation. They finally look how they should (not counting armor): The lean but powerful look of the halo reach elites, minus the disproportionate parts of the leg and torso, but with the head/dermal physiology of Halo 3 and halo 2 era elites. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:38, 5 November 2012 (EST)

Storm Ranks
The Storm is not apart of The Covenant, and should not have it's ranks intermingled with Covenant Ranks. The Storm should have their own category of ranks like 'Refumee's Heretics do.

--AvuMedTelcam 23:28, 22 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Refumee's Heretics didn't have any rank system. And the Storm are likely to recycle familiar ranks to better organise themselves following the fall of the Covenant.— subtank   23:33, 22 September 2012 (EDT)

They had a crude ranking system. Heretic Minors and Heretic Majors. And this Storm faction seems like it doesn't utilize Covenant Ranks at all save Zealot. Also, if you read The Thursday War Preview thing on Amazon which turned out to leak the majority of the novel, these elites are from a Sangheili colony world that was not apart of the Covenant. They actually refer to Sanghelios as the Old World. As per the Encylopedia basically all Sangheili that serve in the Covenant came from Sanghelios. The Covenant ranks are not familiar to them. This is why I am saying it would make more sense to put them as their own category because they have no place to be mingled between Covenant ranks.

--AvuMedTelcam 10:03, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

As I posted in this talk page.

''Since the "Storm" is only a splinter faction of the former-Covenant (which has now broken up and disseminated since the Great War) and, in certain aspects, completely different from the Covenant military altogether; it only makes sense if we create and organize a separate rank structure for the newly specific military roles Storm has introduced. Granted, some are, in retrospect to the time-era, related to titles given by the Covenant from before (suck as the Ranger specialists), they are still different.'' Killjax 13:54, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

Exactly.--AvuMedTelcam 15:00, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5WbZezbtEo Pause at 0:16. That "Warrior" Sangheili is actually a General, as identified in the commendation box. The Strom uses Covenant Ranks. What was posted on the Renders is just a description tag aside from Zealot and Ranger, obviously. --AvuMedTelcam 11:50, 13 October 2012 (EDT)

Covenant Loyalists?
Since they are led by Elites and follow the teachings of the Prophets, wouldn't this make them Covenant Loyalists? Maybe they're the remnants of the Loyalists? --ADinoSupremacist 21:10, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

No. They are labeled "Storm" for a reason. If they were "Loyalists", 343i would of expanded upon that explanation. I guess theoretically they are, but its a slightly different meaning in this case. Killjax 22:33, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

At most they're a Loyalist faction--210.56.88.111 00:17, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

IGN labeled them elites that follow the Prophet's teaching. IGN is also the first three letters of ignorance. The Thursday War confirms these elites have nothing to do with the Prophets. But I guess we'll have to wait till October 2nd to make that official.--AvuMedTelcam 12:43, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

Whatever happened to the Jiralhanae?
I don't know what the rest of you people are thinking, but does anyone have any idea about whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? I know they didn't just die off or get hunted down in the last days of the Covenant Civil War by the Sangheili, but how come I we haven't seen any sign that the Brutes are coming back in Halo 4? I mean, the Gravity Hammer is making a return, but why not the Brutes? Any thoughts, ideas, or clues, anyone? --Xamikaze330 19:38, 27 September 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330


 * Can't answer canonically, so I'll answer Doylist-ly: the Great Schism's importance was drastically diminished in Glasslands, as it's barely mentioned and we even see Brutes on the sides of the Elites. Possibly that's where their absence stems from. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 23:58, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * This should help give you some insight into what happened to them. As far as the Grav Hammer is concerned, the Storm probably mustered up whatever weaponry they could find after the War & Great Schism, Brute weaponry included. Why just the GH, IDK.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 21:00, 27 September 2012 (EDT)


 * According to The Return, the Great Schism was still being fought circa 2559, at which point both sides had begun to run low on resources; the Jiralhanae had also fallen victim to countless internal conflicts. Glasslands shows not only that many Jiralhanae remained subservient to the Sangheili, but that the latter race had also succumbed to civil warfare: case in point, the Storm rifle was used in the Elites' civil wars. Because of this, I assume that the Great Schism continued, albeit diminished in scale, between 2552 and 2559. I guess some of the more sensible Brutes and Elites, (if only a handful), were more concerned about their own survival than committing genocide on each other and thus deigned to work together. Besides, they would have plenty of intraspecies wars to fight in addition to their interspecies struggle.


 * As for the gravity hammers, I have an answer. The Return motion comic shows Elites taking gravity hammers as trophies. According to Waypoint, the gravity hammers seen in Halo 4 have been recovered from the field; the Sacred Promissory has, thanks to being Floodified and blown up, stopped manufacturing the weapon. Beggars can't be choosers, so I guess the Storm don't have any qualms about using the hammer. Then again, maybe Frankie was being his usual evasive self and the Brutes will make a surprise appearance in Halo 4. --Courage never dies. 23:55, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

Name (closed)
To my knowledge, no one from 343 Industries has identified the Covenant remnants that appear in Halo 4 as the Storm. The only official source for the name is Official Xbox Magazine, which is technically a second-party source since it isn't straight from 343i. The Examiner article is merely a synopsis of the OXM feature, while every other online source I've found lazily cites Examiner. In many cases they're basically copy-paste jobs with a word or two changed to avoid outright plagiarism.

The Halo 4 Interactive Guide consistently refers to the remnant forces as the Covenant, just as 343 employees have done in countless interviews. Not once does it call them the Storm, which is instead presented as the catch-all designation for basic Unggoy, Kig-Yar, and Sangheili infantry. The Storm Jackal entry specifically states that they are called such because, "[They] are generally deployed in 'storm' or assault formations alongside other troops;" the same can likely be said for the storm rifle. Furthermore, the OXM article claims that the so-called Storm follow the teachings of the Prophets. We know from the Kilo-Five series that this is a turn of phrase at best, what with Jul hating the San 'Shyuum's collective guts and all.

Basically, I'm suggesting A) that OXM mistook the name of an infantry classification for the whole faction, and B) that they don't know the lore well enough to distinguish the Prophets' religion from general worship of the Forerunners. I know that we should wait for the game's release before we jump to conclusions, so I'm not suggesting that the article be moved right away. However, I feel that this definitely merits attention. --Courage never dies. 12:46, 30 October 2012 (EDT)


 * You have a point. I looked through several of the past Bulletins and not once did they say anything along the lines of "Storm faction". 343i always said the "Covenant" or in the case of the H4 guide, "newly established Covenant order" from "previous Covenant body" (Grunt Imperial description). The word "Storm" when used as a verb simply means to "Move angrily or forcefully in a specified direction" and those ranks are tied to that action. So in a sense, the Examiner may be incorrect. Therefore, Jul 'Mdama may simply be the new leader of the Covenant. If that's the case I guess we should take all the information here and merge it with "The Covenant".-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 17:35, 30 October 2012 (EDT)


 * I would suggest a separate article since this is "newly established Covenant order" from "previous Covenant body" as to avoid confusion. Maybe "Covenant (post-war)" is a better title for this newly established order?— subtank   21:43, 30 October 2012 (EDT)


 * Here's another issue: The sneak-peek terminal merely shows Jul 'Mdama leading his expeditionary fleet to Requiem. There is no indication that he is the leader of the Covenant or even his own faction . I think that "Covenant remnant" would be the best title, though "Covenant (post-war)" would also work. Either way, I'll go about removing all references to the Storm once a decision has been made.


 * The post-war Covenant reminds me quite a bit of the Galactic Empire after Palpatine's death at Endor. The government was fragmented and restructured, but it remained the Empire nonetheless, at least nominally. Likewise, it continued to be a thorn in the side of the dominant government until a new, universal threat emerged. Just replace the Empire, the New Republic, and the Yuuzhan Vong with the Covenant, the UEG, and the Didact, respectively; the parallels are quite clear. --Courage never dies. 23:08, 30 October 2012 (EDT)


 * I think it's pretty much a given from the Kilo-Five trilogy that Jul 'Mdama is the leader. Not so sure about the parallels to Star Wars. :P — subtank   23:22, 30 October 2012 (EDT)


 * I can kinda see what you're trying to get at, but the Galactic Empire, when it fragmented, it then became the Imperial Remnant. Trust me, I know this stuff extremely well. I am a Star Wars buff, among many other science fiction themes. But to be honest, I have been wondering, where did the whole "Storm" faction thing start popping up? I mean, how did this Covenant Loyalist-type splinter faction start out being called the "Storm"? Where does it say "Storm"? I'm confused. --Xamikaze330 (talk|contribs) 23:28, 30 October 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330


 * After reading through the guide again, I'm thinking the "Storm" is simply the Covenant, minus the Prophets (and Brutes). From the Zealot artice in the guide: "But with the absence of the San'Shyuum leadership, the Zealots have shifted into the more practical arena of social and political leadership, operating as the consummate head of the Covenant." Colonel Grade One.png Col.  Snipes  4  50 Colonel Grade One.png 00:05, 31 October 2012 (EDT)


 * Edit conflict - @Subtank - Oops. I thought I had removed "or even his own faction." We should eventually create a separate article for 'Mdama's expeditionary fleet. That way we would have articles for both the post-war Covenant as a whole and for the specific fleet encountered in Halo 4.


 * @Xamikaze330 - I too am a huge Star Wars fan. I have dozens of novels and comic books, almost as many games, and so forth. As for the Galactic Empire parallel, I was just using a generalization. The term "Imperial Remnant" is mostly used by the New Republic and its successor states; loyal Imperial subjects continued to acknowledge their government simply as the Empire even decades after the Yuuzhan Vong War. On topic, though, we've been discussing that the name "Storm" comes from a misunderstanding on behalf of Official Xbox Magazine. Basically, there's no such thing as the Storm, only a remnant faction which still identifies itself as the Covenant. --Courage never dies. 00:13, 31 October 2012 (EDT)


 * I definitely agree we should rename this - all official material so far has only called them "Covenant", most recently the Interactive Guide, so I think we can safely say the "Storm" is a misinterpretation on OXM's part as you said. As for the new title, I'm in the favor of calling this "Covenant remnant"; mainly because I like to avoid having brackets in titles wherever possible. Spelling "remnant" with a lowercase letter should make it clear we're not trying to sell it as a proper name like the Imperial Remnant in Star Wars, merely a description similar to Covenant separatists. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 02:01, 31 October 2012 (EDT)


 * If it's true that they aren't known as the Storm, the we got some major overhauling and correcting to do on a wide span of pages.--1221751884 I-animated-this-for-you.gifEnder the Xenocide 1221751884 I-animated-this-for-you.gif 04:32, 31 October 2012 (EDT)


 * Indeed. Sith-venator Wavingstrider Fett helmet.jpg ( Commlink ) 22:03, 3 November 2012 (EDT)


 * We may also need people to change the name over at Halo Nation. And quickly. I've seen this faction called "the Storm" as far away as Tv Tropes's Halo pages! Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 17:02, 4 November 2012 (EST)


 * Then what are we going to call the Storm Rifle? Not an argument, just a question. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 16:13, 4 November 2012 (EST)


 * "Storm rifle" is a literal translation of the German word for assault rifle, so the weapon's name refers to its function rather than its users. I just hope that people don't get the idea that "storm" is a proper noun.

Voting

 * - Per Braidenvl.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 12:19, 4 November 2012 (EST)

Candidates

 * 1) Covenant (post-war)
 * 2) Covenant remnant

Votes

 * (#2) - Seems like a better name.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 12:19, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - Seems like the actual name. Sith-venator Wavingstrider Fett helmet.jpg ( Commlink ) 12:45, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - The latter accurately conveys that this is a different Covenant, one not at its peak, and also has some precedent on another established wiki. --  Qura 'Morhek   The Autocrat     of Morheka   15:41, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - We just have to make sure people understand that "Covenant remnant" is a descriptor, not a proper or canonical name. --Courage never dies. 16:34, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - As per everyone else.-- 16:36, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - As per all above. --Tent <font color="#3CB371">acle <font color="#DAA520">Torn <font color="#B8860B">ado  17:25, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - Per above, this Covenant has been completely restructured leadership wise, a title like "Covenant remnant" shows that. Colonel Grade One.png Col.  Snipes  4  50 Colonel Grade One.png 18:06, 4 November 2012 (EST)
 * (#2) - Think it's about time we did something about this. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 08:43, 5 November 2012 (EST)

I think it's safe to say that we reached a full consensus on the naming. You all are welcome to fix any reference to the Storm in other articles. — subtank   08:49, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * I can start some of it this afternoon (lunchbreak), starting with the moving of this article, unless someone beats me to it.-- Killamint  [<font color="Red">Comm |<font color="Black">Files ] 10:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * That looks like my cue... I'll make a start on it. --<font color="#2E8B57">Tent <font color="#3CB371">acle <font color="#DAA520">Torn <font color="#B8860B">ado  16:55, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * Oh, I didn't realise when this was done.. Nevermind. --<font color="#2E8B57">Tent <font color="#3CB371">acle <font color="#DAA520">Torn <font color="#B8860B">ado  16:57, 5 November 2012 (EST)

Unidentified
I am aware this matter is closed, but isn't there a precedent for having articles on an unamed subject to be titled "Unnamed (short discriptor)", as seen here: http://www.halopedia.org/Unnamed ? http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 17:36, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * They're not "unidentified". 343i has been identifying them as the Covenant but they are not the original Covenant, just a "remnant", surviving group of them- hence "Covenant remnant". Also, as Jugus said earlier, we prefer to avoid having brackets in titles wherever possible.-- Killamint  [<font color="Red">Comm |<font color="Black">Files ] 18:44, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * Not unidentified, but unnamed. In this case, "Unnamed Covenant Remnant". http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:19, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * Same difference. They have been identified numerous times as the Covenant (especially on the H4 interactive guide), so they are not "unnamed" either. Putting that in the name wouldn't make any sense as it would confuse readers. "Remnant" is more proper and helps readers understand that they are the Covenant but not the original empire they used to be. Also the note at the top and bottom of the article already covers the reason for the title name. Now if the game identifies them as, I guess "Storm" or otherwise, than we'll move the article accordingly.-- Killamint  [<font color="Red">Comm |<font color="Black">Files ] 19:37, 5 November 2012 (EST)
 * But those places they are identified as the covenant aren't written from in canon. Out of canon, of course they will be referred to as just the covenant, because there is no other covenant in the game (presumably). I will hold off on this matter more until I play the game. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 22:31, 5 November 2012 (EST)

Storm...Wait a minute...
I don't know what the rest of you people have been thinking, but maybe we weren't entirely wrong about calling this faction the "Storm". On Halo Waypoint there are still some things like weapons and infantry types that have the term "Storm" in the title classification. Perhaps it really was going to be called the "Storm", or else not. I guess it's all speculation. Anybody else have any thoughts or confirmed information to share? --Xamikaze330 (talk|contribs) 23:26, 6 November 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330


 * From all the gameplay and cutscenes I've seen, the faction is repeatedly referred to as "Covenant" and never as "Storm". Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 00:27, 7 November 2012 (EST)


 * That's a rather bad reason. Are grunts ever called unggoy in game? There's plenty of canonical information that was at a time or still is only mentioned in promotional stuff, that had that info included in the wiki at the time and still do. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 12:02, 7 November 2012 (EST)


 * Sometimes, yes. Usually in chatter dialogue. "Do I look like an Unggoy?" Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 12:13, 7 November 2012 (EST)


 * You get my point, though. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 21:40, 7 November 2012 (EST)


 * To be expected, honestly. As I said, just speculation. Please disregard speculation then. Not sure why though. Or maybe Storm Jackal can be translated as "Assault Jackal". Whatever. --Xamikaze330 (talk|contribs) 00:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330

Large Remnant ship
I'm not sure where to post this so as this page is connected as the remnant used it I'll post it here. In Spartan Ops 'Departure' cutscene the Infinity is seen ramming a Covenant vessel that looks alot like a CCS-battlecruiser, however if you watch the scene in which this happens half a dozen CCS ships actually pass between this unidentified ship and the camera revealing that this vessel is aproximately the size of a Assault Carrier. I do not believe it has been given a page on this wiki yet. VARGR 20:00, 8 November 2012 (EST)
 * I was thinking that it could be an ORS-class heavy cruiser or a Reverence-class cruiser. Infinity has a beam (width) of 833 meters, including the large port and starboard hangar bays. By that screenshot alone, factoring in her beam and the bow to amidships of the Remnant flagship, you could roughly estimate that she's approximately 2.5 to 3 kilometers in length. That would put it in the ballpark of an ORS.

It could be a DDS-class carrier perhaps as the size would match. VARGR 21:41, 8 November 2012 (EST)
 * No. The Essential Visual Guide says that the three carrioer classes (DDS, CAS, and CSO) have very similar appearances. Missing Mandible 00:57, 9 November 2012 (EST)


 * Ah ok. Should we give it it's own page then as "Unidenified Covenant Remnant ship" then? VARGR 13:01, 9 November 2012 (EST)

Based on the size of the two different ships, I'm thinking the large one was the standard ccs battlecruiser. And the small ones were light cruisers. You also see many small cruisers throughout the campaign. masterclod (not sure how to sign)


 * It might be a covenant supercruiser. Flavius Aetius 16:56, 10 November 2012 (EST)

To sign press ~ four times. No the small ones are CCS battlecruisers as they are the correct scale compared to the Infinity and the exact same design as CCS cruisers seen in the main campaign. Could be the supercruiser perhaps. VARGR 20:01, 10 November 2012 (EST)


 * How so? A CCS-class is 1.8 kilometers long, one-third the Infinity's length; the larger cruiser is (relatively) correctly scaled compared to the "smaller" ones, which seems to be shorter than the Infinity's width. The ships surrounding the Dawn in the first campaign level also appears ridiculously small compared to the battlecruiser Noble Six downed in Reach - seriously, how could a single missile rip even an unshielded CCS-class apart?
 * Of course, another possibility is that it's an optical illusion - the ships might simply be very far away or very close to the camera. Either way, Halo 4 has some serious scaling issues, especially with the retconned Dawn.-Kronos101 20:10, 10 November 2012 (EST)

I just played dawn again, they are Definitly not ccs, in forerunner when the elites come down in drop pods you can see a ccs directly above you. It is much bigger so the smaller ones are Definitly light cruisersMasterclod 01:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)masterclod
 * While I haven't looked at the one in Forerunner, the ones in Dawn are CCS actually, the discussion above is on the large ship Infinity rammed into in Departure.Colonel Grade One.png Col.  Snipes  4  50 Colonel Grade One.png 01:03, 11 November 2012 (EST)

Look at the one is forerunner and compare it to the cruiser in dawn, it's MUCH bigger. And the one that infinity crashed into IS a ccs. It just looks giant because its surrounded by light cruisers Masterclod 01:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)masterclod


 * I think Masterclod is right about the cruisers in Dawn being smaller. Just take a look at the one John floats through, there's no way that's a full size CCS. As for the one the Infinity rams, that doesn't look like it could be a CCS either, this time because it's too big, given the size estimates of 3km Grizzlei made, almost double the size of a CCS. Alex T Snow 04:21, 12 November 2012 (EST)


 * The one in dawn is obviously a light cruiser considering it's only 2-3 times the size of the rear half of the FUD. This one has to be a supercruiser or DDS, and it's not a CCS because no known iteration of the CCS has those spikes on it's neck.

It can't be a Reverence because the Reverence class was 1400 Meters, smaller than a CCS. Flavius Aetius 12:44, 12 November 2012 (EST) Im Thinking its a ccs, maybe the spikes are just there to show more detail? Someone needs to put light cruisers in the ships section, because the remnant seems to have a lot. Masterclod 16:18, 16 November 2012 (EST)Masterclod

They really don't as they are CCS. Its the large ship the Infinity hits thats not a CCS as its clearly far to large - aprox the size of a Assault carrier. VARGR 08:33, 21 November 2012 (EST)

Terrorists
Should it be noted that the members of the Covenant Remnant are referred to as terrorists?18:40, 16 December 2012 (EST)