Talk:Gravemind (Form)

The first and second gravemind are the same
"I have beaten fleets of Thousands! Consumed a galaxy of flesh, and mind, and bone!" -said on Halo

I think this line confirms there was only one gravemind. In Halo 2 Cortana says that the fleet surrounding High Charity was the largest fleet ever. And in Halo 3 the Arbiter says that the fleet had hundreds of ships. Royce 20:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think on either the article about the terminals or on 343 guilty sparks article it shows the conversation he had with mencident bias and mencident bias id was something like 056 05, which shows his instilation was 05 and he also betrayed the forerunners. What if gravemind used installation 05 as his base of operations and got protected from the firing of the rings, that would also explain the quote "i have listened through rock and metal and time" its possible he couldn't get out from the sentinal wall. The ark could of created another monitor but he got captured. i reckon it is the same gravemind. Also the birds on installation 05 survived. (Chris)15:36 GMT 5th December 07

No, Mendicant Bias is/was an AI that the Forerunners created to help them with the Flood, the Gravemind tricked Mendicant Bias into betraying them saying they were destroying the universe while he (Gravemind) was preserving it. Mendicant Bias is not at all a Monitor, Installation 05's monitor is 2401 Penitant Tangent who is seen in the cinematic being held by the Gravemind, I don't know what Medicant's number of 056 05 means but if you add them up its another 7 reference. Gado 17:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

yes but its open to speculation, and what if the forerunners changed its use, its just a theory which could be totally wrong but i think it makes an awful lot of sense (Chris) 16:33 GMT 6th December 07

Maybe so but there is considerable doubt pertaining to it. Mendicant Bias is a Contender-class AI as said in Terminal 3 and was not referred to as a Monitor. Although MB may have well been the 05 Monitor in concept he was not in literal terms, to add to that, MB's ID is 05-032 but Penitent Tangent's is 05-2401, 032 does not match the pattern of 7's Bungie has implemented. And as he has done before MB created a copy to survive so why did PT not do so to evade capture of the Gravemind? Gado 21:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

He says a quote that would add to this theory:"Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness; the father's sins pass to his son. " with the Child being a reference to The Reclaimer father being the Forerunners. This quote makes sound like he was both enemies to the Forerunner and the Reclaimer(being the Master Chief) which would mean that he existed during the Forerunner-Flood War--Darth Scott 00:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm that is possible, the lack of details during the war is a problem though, correct me if I'm wrong but I read that the Gravemind remembers the collective memory of the flood so even if he was destroyed once they could have rebuilt him and he would have remembered everything, but again I cannot prove this as his death was not mentioned in the current history records. Gado 17:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm setting this straight. Mendicant Bias IS a Monitor. In Halo: Contact Harvest it was said that the prophets encountered a forerunner AI, a monitor, inside the Dreadnought. The MONITOR awoke and said "I am Mednicant Bias..". There, proof from its own mouth/speaker/voice eminator that it is a monitor!

Additional food for thought: Gravemind appears when the Flood achieve critical mass. This means that the Flood must gather sufficient biomaterial for the Gravemind to form. The Gravemind’s omniscience is derived from the memories of its constituents; that is, it has to be made up of sentient, thinking organisms, numbering upwards of hundreds of thousands. Installation 04 and 05 both show a disturbing lack of any indigenous thinking life; with Installation 04, there was little animal life to begin with (if any) before the Flood was released, and on 05, there was no life other than birds and fish outside the Quarantine Zone, which was the only location where the Flood was active, and the only life-forms that arrived ‘inside’ the Zone at any point after its establishment was Covenant Spec-Ops and Human Marines during the levels Sacred Icon and Quarantine Zone, which alone could not be enough to create the Gravemind, who is implied to have existed and battled the Sentinels and Enforcers far longer than what was shown in the Battle of the Quarantine Zone (in fact, the breakout by the Flood was supposed to have been in effect for over 286.5 years [see the Quarantine Zone article and do the math yourself]). So, how could the Gravemind form in the first place if there is (1) insufficient biomass to physically create one, and (2) insufficient sentience to support the Gravemind’s omniscience? My conclusion is that the Gravemind of Halo 2 and 3 is in fact the original Gravemind of the Flood-Forerunner War; He has to be made up of a vast amount of dead Forerunners in order for his existence and intelligence to be justified. How he got to Installation 05 and captured 2401 Penitent Tangent is beyond me at this point, but there is enough evidence to me that the Gravemind we have encountered has to be the same as the one who antagonized the Forerunner for possibly over 900 years. Ivea &#39;Quiton 00:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

While I do agree with you on some of that Ivea I'm not so sure its created by specifically requiring a 'large' amount of intelligence, my theory is that the flood as a whole are like a RAID array. For those that are not computer inclined a RAID array is a cluster of harddrives which usually are exact copies of each other, if one HD were to say crash and lose its data the others would use their copies to restore it time and again. Now imagine the Gravemind is 1 of 5 total harddrives and the other 4 are the infection forms etc if the Gravemind died they would rebuild him again. I think that EVERY flood organism regardless of their 'form' has the same memories and data as the gravemind but it is spread out through the entire species, they take bodies of humans and other sentient life as a food to either power their creation of a new Gravemind or maybe it truly does help constitute the actual physical body of the Gravemind. I also think that the inherited experiences of the other forms somehow transfers to the Gravemind when he is created so therefore he would appear to have lived millions of years ago and lived to this day but could have died a thousand times over without losing any of the memories. Two other subjects I want to clear up from discussions above, the quote about listening through stone and metal and time etc probably is meant to be taken metaphoraclly (spelling) as he has been trapped within the halos all over the galaxy for so long (him being him physically and the flood infection forms) that all he can do is listen but it could mean hes just been waiting and listening for the right person or race to release him. And lastly, the "I am a monument to your sins" quote I feel means that the "sins" the Forerunner commited on the Flood by trying to kill them was "passed down" to the humans as they probably look alot like them therefore their "children" and that he himself was the answer that would finally make them atone for them, he is the very thing they were trying to kill and therefore since he 'survived' he is the monument that reminds them of what was done and how he will fix it. And thats all I have haha take it as you like, I do not think this as fact merely speculation and theory. Gado 17:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Gado, while the basic theory is good, it would appear as though it has already been shown otherwise. In the Flood article, in the Neurological Biology sub-section, Infection Forms purge their hosts' memories. It would appear that they don't, to use your computer example, copy and wirelessly redistribute everything from their host's head to the rest of the Flood. No, I think the Infection Forms individually realize which memories, which host, is more needed for the Flood to obtain their galaxy-dominating goal. An example being Captain Jacob Keyes; he was initially assimilated into a Combat Form before the Infection Form controlling him found the knowledge about starships and possible sources of food (human colonies and Earth). If such information was shared among the individual Flood, then they wouldn't need a central intelligence, and they wouldn't have a feral stage. They would be constantly advancing, not dependant on cycles based on food supply. The reality is that this is not the case; single Flood Infection Forms do not carry copies of previous hosts' memories, and Combat Forms look only to defeat enemies, and the Brain-Form and Gravemind are the necessary central intelligence to guide the otherwise wild and undisciplined Flood in ways they would not normally act under normal circumstances (i.e. allying with John-117 and Thel 'Vadam during the events of Halo 2 from the level Gravemind on 'and' in Halo 3 in deactivating the rings' remote activation sequence. Feral Flood never would have shown any restraint.  So, to me, it is illogical to pursue theories about Flood being like copied hard drives.  Although I do give you props for thinking about it.  Ivea &#39;Quiton 20:39, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I see where I may have been confusing in some of my text but I didn't mean that they transferred the memories wirelessly I mean that each flood spore or form (to whatever level it digresses) has a "collection" of memories that the individual knows. Its kind of like how humans have the fight or flight instincts where in extreme situations their bodies are flooded with superhuman strength in order to, say, lift a car off their child etc. But in the Flood's case its unique to that one entity like a subconcious memory so whenever the Gravemind is created from lets say an infected captain among many others those flood's unique memories would also be transferred to the Gravemind. Now obviously when the Gravemind is alive and active he may be able to transmit those memories to other flood forms but its also a temporary thing. When the Gravemind "dies" the memories the infection/combat/carrier etc forms recieved from him are gone and return to a more hibernated memory the knowledge of say commanding and flying a spaceship that they learned from others that made up the Gravemind would probably go back to being a unique memory for those that are actually infected hosts with that knowledge to begin with. (I do apologize if this is confusing or going around in circles but I'm out of it at the moment and not typing quite the way I'm used to haha, I'll clean it up and clear things up later) Gado 19:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Again an interesting theory. So let's say for example there was the Gravemind before the first Halo event, and was subsequently destroyed. Another Gravemind forms millenia later on Installation 05. Obviously they are different physical compositions, but the memories of the first Gravemind were put into "storage" and re-released for the second one once he had the capacity to bring them into active memory? Just trying to simplify/clarify your idea. Ivea &#39;Quiton 21:02, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

In a way yes. I'd say that every flood has dormant memories of what the Gravemind remembers of say the Forerunner-Flood war and when they merge into a Gravemind each ones physical experiences are then added to his memories and in a way once the Gravemind is made he IS the entire Flood so any experiences any other flood that had not merged would have of like shooting a jackal with a rocket would be "his" but any knowledge that was obtained from say a human or elite would be a unique memory that would not be shared. Or maybe it truly is shared and the others simply don't have the ability to actually pilot a ship, maybe they don't have hosts or something. And once the Gravemind dies its like all the unique memories stay with those specific combat forms etc and the information is lost until another Gravemind is formed. To be honest alot of this would probably seem so "out there" that its impossible to accept as a possible truth but then the Flood exists haha. I'm basing alot of this theory on ideas from Ghost in the Shell on the Tachkoma's how they all seemed to be having the same experiences and memories but there is always a specific one that is chosen for an assignment. I'll put this all on my talk page once I clean it all up and make it less confusing -.-; Gado 21:24, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, now the waters begin to clear! I don't the the Flood is ANYTHING like most people can compare is to (I am reminded of zombies, you apparently recall Ghosts in a Shell). So to go into this article and come out with a idea like that is somewhat unfair to the canon establishment and to the game developers who came up with Gravemind and the storywriters who tried to justify his existence. I don't mean to bash or flame, but perhaps an open mind and keeping relevant details to their respective worlds would be more in the interests of uncovering the secrets of the Gravemind and the Flood. 19:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

You are right, the Flood is nothing we ourselves have any right to call a canon explanation for how the flood operate or think, Bungie is probably the only ones able to do so. But for the sake of speculation and debate its always good to have a firm base understanding of what they are similar to even if the references are noncanon or from another series entirely. I do understand where you are coming from with this and I totally respect it as well as Bungie but this whole topic is for fun and debate :) Gado 19:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This is true. I sincerely apologize if I seem far too serious for my own good. I tend to have a short temper for those who insist a concept is correct when all available evidence points to something quite different. One of my biggest irritations can be found here. I like for things that do have canon, facts, and evidence behind them to be set straight for good and for inconsistancies to be either noted as such or purged entirely for the sake of consistancy. I apologize if I appear aggressive. I mean nothing personally and greatly value your thoughts and judgement. 20:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

No worries, no harm done :) Gado 07:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Flood Intelligence 101
The most logical explanation for how the flood works will be revealed. 1.All flood gain the memories/knowledge of hosts they infect 2.Once it gains the knowledge it is encoded in its very DNA. 3.Thus any flood descendants of the form retain its knowledge and its ancestor's knowledge 4.However this method limits the knowledge to blood lines so they accumulate as many bodies/minds into one to centralize the knowledge. 5.This brain form encodes the knowledge in its DNA and most every flood then benefits. 6.Each flood is independent but work together because they all share a mind. This method of assimilation means if any part of a brain form survives it can be fully rebuilt or even distributed thus explaining how Gravemind can move to High Charity. Also how infection forms from the forerunner wars can retain knowledge from that history but Jenkins infection form does not know everything Gravemind does. Feel free to dispute or ask for clarification.

More than one?
Is it possible that there is more than one current Graveming in Halo 3? I mean how can Graveming be on the Ark and on High Charity at the same time, while he's only 84 metres long? -Karzhani 03:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean "on the Ark and on High Charity at the same time"? High Charity crashed ONTO the Ark, duh.

Don't you mean Gravemind? FishType1

NO
Well this is just my opinion there is only one gravemind

Gravemind Theory.
First of all, i think that the quote about ships of thousands does not really matter, as the gravemind IS the flood, and therefore shares all memories, in the same way that the flood is gravemind. I think that the graveminds are able to enter a deep hibernation, that allows them to survive without food, perhaps re awakening when a new source is found. This was evolved in case the halos were activated. This allows the flood to partially survive activation of the halos. Perhaps he is still alive, stowed onto the Dawn, with Cortana and Master chief, to re awaken when they find a new planet/civilization. This would explain his references to him listening throught time, perhaps him detecting human development during his slumber, which was used when halo was activated, thus allowing him to realize the history of the covenant and the humans and exploit this. This would fit with the parralel of the las few missions to Aliens.

In a physical and literal sense, there have been at least two Graveminds with the possibility of a third one on Alpha Halo, and a fourth one on Alpha(II) Halo. The activation of the Halos wiped out the Gravemind the Forerunners fought with indefinitely. The Flood, however, was not wiped out in its entirety. Everything the Flood does, the Gravemind knows of and vice-versa. So the Flood forms individually have some, if not total "memory" of what they had done throughout time. In fact, if one form had complete memory of what they had done, it would be enough to carry the memories through multiplication. Maybe not even a complete Flood form, but a single spore or a group of spores. The spores have been described as thinking muscles, and their ability to mimic any cell, would mean that retaining memories is not difficult. So after the activation of the first Halos, when the new Gravemind was being made, it would be built with cells from the wave that attacked the Forerunners. So the Gravemind we fought was built with Flood that experienced the events of the past. When High Charity is destroyed, there was still plenty of Flood forms that would have the spores with the retained memories as well as the newer ones. In theory, it would be impossible to kill the Gravemind since as long as one spore remains, a new Gravemind would arise with the memories of each past one, learning from the mistakes. On Alpha Halo, the proto-Gravemind would have some ancient cells to retain the memories as well. What interests me is when the two Graveminds cross paths. More than likely they would "merge" together since they are achieving the same goals, and both would have memories the other wouldn't. Of course, two Graveminds are better than one in the grand scheme of things. All one giant theory, of course, but rather simplistic in idea and essentially plausible. It would be interesting to know the memories the Gravemind has. The Gravemind the Forerunners met may have been literally the hundredth one made, with the memories spanning from the creation of time itself! XRoadToDawnX 23:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If you scroll up to my posts under the "First and second Gravemind are the same you'll see I tlak of much the same stuff you do, the one problem I have with this though is you're assuming a Proto-Gravemind IS a Gravemind, the reason its name has Proto in it means it is not yet a full Gravemind therefore it does not have the same abilities as it would. It more than likely would have memories from the Forerunner war among many other things but the Proto Gravemind cannot move and the only time its ever seen is piloting a ship like the one Commander Keyes turned into. Their whole purpose within the Flood usefulness roster (or w/e you want to call it) is probably to pilot ships and nothing more. True I could be wrong but given the evidence I doubt the true Gravemind views it any more than a tool to use to further the Flood's plans and not as an 'ally'. Gado 00:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Latin Name
"Inferi sententia" does not mean "the dead condemn you." It means "Dead (pl.) Sentience" - probably meant to be "Sentience of the Dead," which would be "inferi sententiae." Indeed, there are a few that are wrong, as derived from this cited source: http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=865888

on the level cortana, cortana says "This is UNSC AI serial number CTN0452-9. I am a monument to all your sins.

creepy.


 * You're correct, I'll fix that now.XRoadToDawnX 10:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarify
There is only one Gravemind in our galaxy. In halo2 he is on the delta halo. in halo 3 he moves onto high charity which crashes onto The Ark. Mendicant Bias allowed the formation of this Gravemind. He speaks through his flood forms so, if he was at earth on high charity and a flood was next to MC on The Ark they could have a nice chat. When the unfinished halo exploded it destroyed th Ark, and the Gravemind.

Where's the proof?
The last note in the trivia section says that the Gravemind in Halo 3 is a newer one, and that the one from Halo 2 died. I don't recall any proof that explicitly said this was truth. So is there any or is it simply speculation?XRoadToDawnX 20:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

There can't be a "new" gravemind, because it is the Flood. If its body is destroyed, as it is in Cortana, then it simply builds a new one. -- Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  21:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * True, but it says that the body from Halo 2 was destroyed. I don't recall any information actually saying that was the case.  I am sure that the body in Halo 3 is the same one from Halo 2, and traveled through High Charity. After that, it really comes down to arguing semantics. XRoadToDawnX 22:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The body doesn't matter it is an eternal mind the encompasses the entire flood species, its formation into centralized mind is an evolutionary step not the creation of a new being. I really think the information about multiple graveminds needs to be cleaned up. ProphetofTruth 16:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

There is only one Gravemind
Well, the Halo Array kills all sentient life, right? No one has said it directly kills the Flood, just their food. And over thousands of years, the Gravemind would have just kept using the already acquired calcium to preserve his form. Also, his comments of "I have destroyed fleets of thousands" implies there were fleets of thousands to destroy. And after the Great Schism, there were no fleets that large. Two other things. One, he could have moved to Installation 05 after the Forerunners killed themselves, and Two, what was there on Installation 05 to provide that much calcium before the Covenant came and really released the Flood? Clearly it was already there.


 * Actually, in Terminal six on Legendary it is stated that when the Halo Array was activated, all of Mendicant Bias's Flood-controlled ships were rendered helpless (The [Halo effect] strikes our combined fleets. All ships piloted by biologicals are now [adrift].


 * I can trade Mendicant ship for ship now and still prevail. ).
 * This implies that the Halo effect does, in fact, effect the Flood. Otherwise Offensive Bias would still have been completely overwhelmed and the firings of the Halos would have proved completely useless as it would have only killed off Offensive Bias's fleet. Instead, Offensive used his remote-piloted ships to destroy the Flood fleet and capture Mendicant. As for the comment "I have destroyed fleets of thousands" the Gravemind's memories are preserved in the Flood's cells, if memory serves. Every time a Gravemind is formed, it retains the memories of its predecessor. Furthermore, the Legendary Bestiary explicitly states that a Gravemind is formed when the Flood reaches a certain critical mass, implying that multiple Graveminds can and have been formed. YayapTehGrunt 18:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Ever noticed?
Ever noticed how Gravemind looks and sounds like this guy:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Teridax

Compare: -Both have pans of universal conquest (though Gravemind might want universal peace by turning everyone into Flood) -Both are the main enemies of their respective storylines -Both made their first appearance underground in a chamber filled with green smoke....

Weird.

Karzhani 12:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

If Gravemind died...
If the Gravemind died, what would happen to the rest of the Flood? Would they continue what they were doing, or stop or something? The Sith version of Master Chief  My happy placeWhat I've edited 16:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If Gravemind dies, the surviving Flood Forms would just create another Gravemind. However, they wouldn't be organized as seen in Halo 2 and Halo 3. This is best illustrated in Halo:CE where the Flood Forms would just run around, killing everything in its path. Anarchy. :P - 5 ub7 ank (7alk ) 16:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that if Gravemind died, he would just be made up again, it i could be a hundred Gravemind, but only one "mind", "soul", "spirit" or whatever you might call it. Hunter-901

The Gravemind is much like the Overmind from Starcraft; they control every action of every single minion of their swarm. I think if the Gravemind died, the rest of the flood under its control would go crazy and start killing anything in sight. Hyper Zergling 00:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, According to the Instruction Booklet of Halo 3, the Gravemind forms only when the total cumulative flood organisms in one area reach a certain biomass. The gravemind thus forms out of necessity to control and allow for the communication between the organisms and infectious agents because it can more accurately coordinate them all through it's neuronal network. If the first gravemind were to be destroyed, then any remaining flood would be scattered and attempt to come together to form yet another gravemind, or at least try to multiply through the infection of other organisms to attain a certain critical biomass. Thus, another gravemind would be born, or technically if flood organisms belonging to the first gravemind came together and enough did come together, then it could form another gravemind genetically identical to the first one which was destroyed by our great heroes the MasterChief and the Arbiter. This genetically identical gravemind could possibly have fragments of the memories of the previous gravemind if parts of neurons are found and linked together appropriately.

Gravemind on Installation 05
I was thinking, if there was a Gravemind on Installation 05 during Halo 2, would it be likely he was around during Halo: Combat Evolved? And if so, would he have had any control whatsoever of the Flood on Installation 04? The Sith version of Master Chief  My happy placeWhat I've edited 19:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A Gravemind was not formed during the events of Halo Combat Evolved. The Flood acted independently in those event till they formed the Proto-Gravemind (otherwise know as the Brain Form). The Brain Form then acted as the leader of the Flood. After obtaining enough calcium, it would evolve *Pokemon theme song!* into a Gravemind.- 5 ub7 ank (7alk ) 20:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Question About Gravemind
This may be newbish and its probably in the article, but why does the gravemind need calcium? He's not made out of bone is he?--Rockchick2410 15:11, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

He is made out of Flood biomass and infected corpses, so yeah, he will need Calcium.--Shade  Link  Shadow  15:34, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer --Rockchick2410 18:53 September 20, 2009

Lack of backstory...
I noticed a lack of backstory for this article. I was just reading about Mendicant Bias, and how the Gravemind corrupted him.

I don't know if there was one or two Graveminds, but since there's no first Gravemind and second Gravemind articles, would it be okay to add a biography section? (It could easily get split into "first" and "second" sections.)

However, that would conflict with the current structure of the article, which has an Appearances section that holds most of the Gravemind's biography (all but the backstory) but in game publication order, not in chronological order. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 22:12, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Current structure of the article has a Biography section which lists things in chronological order. First is the Forerunner-Flood War events (which were revealed in Halo 3, but took place 100,000+ years before). Then, it details Gravy's events in Halo 2 and Halo 3. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  06:08, September 26, 2009 (UTC)