Talk:MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/Mark IV

Image
Many of you may know how I feel about this particular issue, but for the moment, I'm going to have to ask you to suspend your own opinions for a while and listen. The issue I'm talking about is of course what the Mk IV really looks like. I know you all have your own theories and whatnot, but because of those theories, you're all missing the point. In the event of a canon conflict, we at Halopedia don't decide canon. We decide which canon is more well supported within the realm of the Halo universe.

So to begin. The dispute settled initially on the cover to the Cole protocol which was later revealed to look completely different from the Spartans of Halo Wars fame. This made people argue. Somehow, people settled on the CP version. I'm going to fight for the other side.

First off, the Cole Protocol armor is a piece of concept art. That's it. It wasn't divinely handed down by Bungie. It was painted by an artist with a very loose set of guidelines in order to capture the feel of the book. That said, I still believe its canon. But not for all Spartans. No. You see the Spartans in the book were VERY different from other Spartans with a very different mission profile. They likely had different armor, just as Halo 3's Mk VI armor permutations were made for different jobs. Of course this is conjecture but as I'm about to explain, that explanation is likely the only way that the Cole Protocol version can be counted as canon.

You see, our current policy on canon clearly marks games as higher canon than books. (Halopedia:Canon Policy - go there, it's great!) Yet we still hold the Cole Protocol image above Halo Wars. First off, that's incredibly stupid and un-halopedian. Secondly, the Cole Protocol cover has nothing to do with the book's canon, it's ARTWORK. It is separate from the book's information, story, and canonicity (I think you spell it that way?). Many of you people say that we should trust Bungie's book (via Subtank: "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"). And to many of those people, I wish to inquire about your mental state. The book came from a (relatively new) author who had access to the Halo Bible. Halo Wars also had access to the bible (via Frankie). The art came from a contractor hired by Tor to paint a Halo picture. Where is Bungie involved? NOWHERE. That's the beauty of my argument. And since when does canon have to do with a book's art rather than its story anyways?

Yet even though we have this hammered out, for the sake of argument, I'm going to concede to the fact that HW is a third party game, just as the books are third party literature. Yet even thought that theoretically puts them at the same level at BEST, our policy still makes no distinction that a third party game is less than a Bungie game. It groups all games as one. One place higher than literature that is. You see, Subtank had a conversation with me earlier about whether Halo Wars information about a vehicle or the Encyclopedia's contradictory information should be kept. We decided that even if both sets of information were from third party companies, what mattered was that games have always ranked higher than books. Always. Halo is a game first and foremost after all.

Anyways, moving on. It's interesting to note that the Spartan silhouettes in the Halo: Reach poster have Mk. IV armor more like that of the Halo Wars armor. This is concluded by finding the placement of the vents. On all armor suits in the series (including the ones on the Reach poster) the cooling vents are on the shoulders. Yet Cole Protocol shows Mk. IV armor to instead have vents on the chest, contradicting *GASP* official Bungie concept art. And I think Bungie concept art beats not-Bungie art!

The last piece of the feud is that Halo: Legends keeps the Halo Wars suit in mind when introducing its main character Cal. She has (almost) exactly the same armor as red team from HW. I think this is the nail in the coffin folks. We have a cartoon AND a game AND some Bungie teaser art supporting the HW armor. And we don't even have a BOOK describing the Cole Protocol version, we instead have a piece of concept art on its cover.

Thank you friends for hearing out my well-meant rant. I'm sorry it took so long but please discuss your opinions below. It is my dearest wish to rectify this situation ASAP. --Nerfherder1428 01:20, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Outstanding, superb, brilliant. Those are the three words that come to mind, along with all sorts of other accolades and affirmations. However, there is more information from the encyclopedia that is very enlightening on this very subject.

On pages 88-89, it describes the "Twenty-Five Years of Development" in an ecompassing way.

"More than just a suit of armor, MJOLNIR enhances the Spartan's physical performance nad also contains an onboardd artificial intelligence network that is neurally linked to the wearer. Because MJOLNIR Armor is so reactive, it can only be worn by a physically augmented Human such as a Spartan-II; an ordinary person would injure themselves. Dr. Halsey spent over twenty-five years working on upgrades to the armor, and created many variants and models of the six different generations of MJOLNIR technology: Marks I, II, III, IV, V, and VI."

What this passage tells us is very important; each Mark/Phase of MJOLNIR is not a singular suit, but rather an entire generation or line/lineage/array of suits with multiple variants and entirely different models, all of which are still part of that particular generation, be it Mk IV, V, or VI. That would mean different suits, like that worn by Red Team, Team Omega, and Cal-141 are one particular model of Mk IV, while that seen on at least one Grey Team Spartan, as seen on the TCP cover, is another model or variant of a model, but are all still Mk IV. They are all valid, with the Mk IV being present in multiple distinct forms and variants.

As for the Mk IV itself, the book describes it well;

"The Mark IV was the basis for all MJOLNIR designs. Eschewing the tank-like appearance of the previous models, the Mark IV allowed for direct user-control thorugh a neural interface that connected with the wearer's spine. The Mark IV did not feature many of the later advancements of the MJOLNIR line-it still did not have Energy Shields or magnetic holders for grenades, and it had a very limited radar unit- but it did feature a built-in fusion reactor that allowed for nearly unlimited movement. Rumors originating from the planet Ariel have claimed that there were more advanced prototypes of Mark IV in the field, including architecture for Energy Shields and perhaps even in-suit technology, but such reports have not been confirmed by ONI."

In other words, the Mk IV served as the foundation upon which Mk V and especially the VI improved upon, and that different models, variants, and prototypes of the Mk IV generation existed through that generation's twenty-plus years of service before the implementation of the Mk V and VI. And that wouldn't just be limited to functionality; the MJOLNIR worn by other Spartans in the other Halo: Legends episodes such as "Homecoming", "The Package", and most significantly "Prototype", show suits strongly but not entirely, similar to the Mk VI.

The major differences, especially in the case of "The Package", is that the armor possesses many features that the Mk VI does not have. The helmets are more primitive and jagged in appearance, as are the suits themselves. There is also a sort of "spine" on the back, and the armor panels are generally flatter and chunkier than the overall smoother and lean parts of the Mk VI. In short, they are clunkier, flatter, and rougher analogues or even precursors to the form that the Mk VI would take.

So I'd say that we have a very decisive message being sent by 343 Industries about this issue, and what we see in Halo: Legends; rather than mere artistic license, the MJOLNIR suits seen are different models, variants, and even evolutions of the Mk IV generation/line/lineage over time that serves as the functional, technological, and aesthetic foundation that goes to the Mk V and ultimately culminates in the Mk VI.

(P.S. Nerfherder1428; that armor is not fully identical to the Mk IV seen in Halo Wars and Legends, but is chunkier and rounder. It is the first glimpse at the visually updated "true" form of the Mk V, rather than the graphically and aesthetically primitive character model from Halo 1. Hopefully, it won't be a rehash of the failed "Mk V Redux" piece by Isaac Hannaford. That looked like a deformed, obese Mk VI pretending to be the Mk V.)

This is my multi-paragraph contribution to this issue. I will contribute more when I have time. Have a good Thanksgiving. Kig-Yar meat for all! --Exalted Obliteration 02:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * There are two problems with the initial argument. First the concept art for the Cole Protocol was not done by Tor. It was done by Isaac Hannaford with help from Lorraine McLees and Isaac's signature is viewable on the shoulder pad of armor; therefore that makes it Bungie Art. The second is the fact that Halo Legends as a whole is one big artistic interpretation, there are things that legends get wrong right down to the basic level (example: if you take a good look at the female Spartan from "The Package" in the behind the scenes preview for legends her MJOLNIR chest plate clearly defines that the armor is for females ((Boob Plates)) when we know for a fact that all MJOLNIR suits are unisex and cannot be distinguished.)


 * On the other account there is no evidence to support that any of the Spartans in the Halo: Reach poster are wearing the Mark IV. And I'm willing to go out and say you're wrong on that assessment considering the recent leaked pictures indicate they are wearing the Mark V or something similar. With the Reach poster however it is premature to make a judgment on a undefinable silhouette. Durandal-217 03:32, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed Durandal, you bring up some good points. I was unaware of Lorraine McLees' involvement in Hannaford's drawing. Still not sure that a book cover has anything to do with the canon information of the book, but for now I'll submit. Agreed that Legends is an artistic interpretation and that Reach is premature, but once again my friend, you have a videogame that supports this. The rest, though somewhat assumed, are supporting details. As for the leaked screens, if you look carefully, the hand plate in first person actually looks like that of Halo Wars Spartans. Just sayin'. (Aha, I forgot it was you friend, that so vehemently argued with me over the Cole Protocol's version a few months back. Will you again stand in the face of reason now that we have a few more sources?)


 * As to Exalted Obliteration, I agree completely that this armor has its own variants. You bring up an amazing set of valid points. And I completely agree that BOTH sets of known armor are canon. (Yes I realized that Legends is only just similar to the Halo Wars version. That we agree on.) However, right now, I'm trying to discuss which of the known armor versions we should have as that first picture. In essence, I'm trying to show which version is more well supported, which I've undoubtedly (I think) proven to be the Halo Wars version.--Nerfherder1428 11:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I would like to point that the Canon Policy states Halo Games are the superior canon than other media provided that they are produced by Bungie employees directly, thus explaining why I refer "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's". Halo Wars was supervised by Bungie in terms of plot/canon issues/advices on developing the story but the design of the Mark IV was left to the artists' interpretation and not by Bungie. Also, note by the first point of our Canon Policy which states Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public. If we were to apply the reasoning test:
 * 1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by Bungie.
 * 2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Ensemble (or, to be more specific, Blur Studio)
 * 3. Canon Policy dictates Bungie Employees are highest canon.
 * 4. Thus, Mark IV in TCP is of higher than Halo Wars.
 * Toodles. :) -  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 12:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Plus, we can't really regard the visuals in Legends as canon; in "The Package" video, the Spartans are wearing a what appears to be the Mark VI, while they're obviously supposed to have the MK IV at that point. Even Frankie's stated it multiple times in the HBO Forums that most of the time, aesthetics aren't canon, at least not with the MJOLNIR armor, because "otherwise they'd be stuck with the H1 graphics", or something along the lines of that. Personally, i don't see a problem with the H1 design. Anyways, the TCP version makes more sense, even canon-wise; it actually looks like something that would predate the MK.V, instead of being a some kind of odd hybrid between the MK.V and VI. But like Frankie's said, most of the time, aesthetics aren't canon, not in 343's productions at least. The same applies for other things, such as hair in the anime, etc. Also, i think the armor in Reach looks more like the H1 design than the HW one, even having seen the leaked screens. But with the canon policy, there's really no problem. --Jugus 13:02, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually Madam Subtank, the canon policy just says HALO GAMES. Yes the description states that this is because they're made by Bungie, but the title makes no distinction between bungie games and ensemble games. Check again. And Ensembele's Halo Wars certainly wouldn't fit within the "other media" section (literature, soundtracks, and other media), nor would it be grouped in the "Bungie Affiliate" section (referring to employees outside of games and books via interviews etc.). As it is also not "Halopedia canon", where exactly does it fit? Answer me that riddle? Why do you not think it is grouped with the games? If you don't, I'd have to say our current policy (once again) needs to be updated to include references to Halo Wars.
 * So let's revise.


 * 1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by an artist named Isaac Hannaford, ASSISTED by a Bungie Employee for ideas.
 * 2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Blur, overseen by Ensemble, ASSISTED by Frankie O'Connor(though admittedly not much)-then Bungie employee.
 * 3. Isaac Hannaford is no Bungie employee. Saying the TCP pic came from a Bungie employee because Lorraine McLees assisted in brainstorming ideas is like saying ANY book, trailer, or video game retains "Bungie Employee" canon status because they also were kept in line by Bungie Employee advisers. Would you place the Fall of Reach (or its cover) in the "Bungie Employee" category? No. You'd put it in the "Literature" category. Simple concept. Also, Hannaford had lots of freedom with the picture he created anyways.
 * 4. Your arguments prove nothing. Even if you counted both Halo Wars and TCP picture on the same canon scale (Literature, soundtracks, and other media), Halo Wars would win out because it's a GAME. Games beat books. Always. Employees beat games, but once again, the TCP is not in the Employee section, it's in the literature section.


 * As for Jugus, I COMPLETELY agree that Legends is ALL artistic license. I think that the people picking out that particular point are misunderstanding me. I'm just saying that even if it IS artistic, at least the HW version still has SOME resemblance in another work.--Nerfherder1428 22:56, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Isaac Hannaford is a Bungie employee. Hes been working there for more then 4 years. Durandal-217 23:02, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I'd like to formally redact my statements regarding his employee status. :D Yet even still, our Canon policy points to things falling under Employee canon to be things released in interviews etc outside of commercial products right? Or else the games and Contact Harvest would be in the Employee canon sections. Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. Again, the games wouldn't have their own separate canon listing if that was the case. So once again, wouldn't the cover count towards literature?--Nerfherder1428 23:14, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from using . If you wish to stress a word or two, use  . Also, please perform proper research to support your argument in the near future. Anyway, back to the discussion.
 * Issue #1: Canon Policy and Where Ensemble's Game falls: Ensemble's Halo Wars would fall in between #2 and #3 but more towards #2. Note that under point 2 of the Canon Policy states that "video games was produced by Bungie employees directly" whereas point 3 of the Canon Policy states "Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio". So, in all, Halo Wars' plot and storyline as they were supervised by Bungie would fall under #2, however, the artistic freedom such as the design of units, vehicles and scenery/landscapes would fall under #3. Never assume the content as whole (Halo Wars is not produced only by Ensemble. They are in charge of the gameplay. In terms of designs, they made a contract with various animation/technical studios such as Blur Studio - Refer to my "Reasoning Test"). Instead, dissect every details of that content and try to determine which place they fall under.
 * Issue #2: Regarding Novels and Authors and where they fall under the Canon Policy: As per above, Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. This is not really an issue but Contact Harvest will still fall under #3's Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media even if it was written by a Bungie Employee. It is the status of the media/product that matters but not as whole. Elements/Details of the product still matters and it is up to us to analyse and conclude where they fall under... but as always, we don't determine what is canon and what is not without concrete proof/support/evidences. The Canon Policy should only be referred to settle disputes on determining what is canon and what is not. Halo: Contact Harvest, written by Joseph Staten, had no major inconsistencies up to this day, thus being irrelevant to this discussion.
 * Conclusion: The Canon Policy is still in perfect condition and there is no need to update it. If needed, we would require advice from Bungie/Frankie of 343 Industries. Never consider a product as whole. Dissect every detail of a product. Some details in one product might contradict another detail in another product. Such example would be the ODST's BDU in H2 and H3. Analyse the origin of the product and question Who made it? Is it Bungie or is it by someone else, When was it made? Was it before or after the official release? and Was it supervised by Bungie or did the artist had some freedom?. Final note: Research!-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 00:03, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * You all bring interesting points, but what concerns me is that no Source has said which one is canon.(If I am wrong please give me a link to the source) Sith-venator Wavingstrider ODST Crest.png ( Commlink ) 03:50, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Both images/designs are canon, but based from what I've analysed, Bungie's design is of higher canon than Ensemble's.-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 14:48, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Well, judging by the armor of the Spartans in the Halo: Reach opening cinematic, it looks like we have our definite answer on this now. The Cole Protocol version is canon, and Halo Wars version is not. --TDSpiral94 04:15, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Really? Since when?

Beyond one's biases and inferred reasoning, where is the proof that such a statement is undeniable fact?

Unless this is confirmed by Bungie and/or 343 Industries, that seems like too hasty of a conclusion to make. Also, aren't you aware of what the encyclopedia suggests on this matter? It states that the Mk.s' of the MJOLNIR series are a distinct generation of powered armor, within which exist not only attachment-based "variants" of the standard model, but multiple models, each likely having the same kind of variants.

This would mean that the Mk. IV, which had been in service for nearly 27 years, would have been upgraded consistently over the course of that time while still being of that particular generation before it is ultimately superseded by the Mk. V and VI generations in late 2552.

For more information, check what I wrote at the start of this long thread, and the page numbers from the encyclopedia.

Perhaps someone should send Frankie an email. --Exalted Obliteration 05:08, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Frankie has no involvement in Halo: Reach as he is no longer part of Bungie. Similarly, 343 Industries does not have any involvement in Bungie. The correct person to contact would be Joseph Staten.-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 14:10, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Heres' something to consider regarding this debate that I just found;

[RED TEAM LEADER AND MASTER CHIEF 2-PACK http://spawn.com/toys/product.aspx?product=4100]

This pretty much confirms that the Halo Wars Mk. IV is canon, and at least implies that this version is the initial form of the armor. As of TCP etc., it is quite likely that it was upgraded and even refitted before the advent of the Mk. V in late 2252.

That means, in other words, that we see the Mk. IV in different stages of evolution before its ultimate retiring in favor of the Mk. V. --Exalted Obliteration 04:56, December 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Or, the action figure manufacturers just picked the version with most references available. The HW Mk IV and the TCP version are so vastly different it's hard to believe they'd be two versions of the same model. I don't see how a statement from an action figure company makes it canon anyways; since when have they had control over canon? --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 06:45, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Very true on the point that the toy maufacturer does not decide canon. I will retract parts of my statements to take that into account. However, one must consider where the information that the 2-figure pack will contain comes from.

This did not come purerly from the manufacturer; it came from those who are in charge of the franchise and the canon itself. That information came from Microsoft and 343 Industries themselves, who own the rights to the Halo franchise and truly decide what is and is not canon.

The fact that they gave the information in question to the manufacturer and what iteration of the Mk. IV to use says a great deal. It pretty much says that as far as Microsoft and 343 Industries are concerned, the Mk. IV depicted in Halo Wars and by extension the anime short "The Babysitter" are valid, and more specifically, valid to the earlier conflicts of the Human-Covenant.

Does this mean that the TCP version cannot coexist with what is clearly the stance of the present owners of the franchise, or that it is either that version or that one? Not at all. As of Halo 3 armor permutations, ODST, and now Reach, it is made abundantly clear that the suits can be customized, upgraded, modified, and even refitted beyond their original forms and specifications.

As to your other point, that it is hard to believe that there would be two different versions of the suit, that is a very valid point that has yet to be truly resolved beyond the conclusions and informed opinions of the knoweldgeable members of this wiki such as yourself. But we must also remember that we do not truly decide what is and is not canon; that is truly determined by those who own the franchise and its canon.

If we owned the franchise, then we could, but since we don't, our determinations beyond our analyses, citations, etc. do have limitations in certain instances, with this being one of them. So how might this conflict be resolved without throwing out one version in favor of the other while respecting the canon, the attendant scale, and the fact that canon in this franchise is in constant state of flux, especially in the context of its literature, which has been revised and retconned repeatedly, contradicting assumptions made before revisions were introduced.

Though I do not have exact familiarity with every last little bit of Halo literature made to date, I do remember many of the things that relate to this particular debate. Indeed, the books early on did imply that there were only static, rigid, largely unchanging suits of Mk. IV that had few alterations, and that there was a great deal of difficulty in distinguishing each Spartan from another just by looking at their armor. However, that has been overturned like many things from the earlier novels, and now it has been shown that MJLONIR can be altered and even evolve over time to the point that it may bear little resemblance to its initial form and specifications.

For a system that has been in service for nearly 27 years and serves as a testbed and foundation for its successors, it seems unlikely that the it would stay static and unchanging for every moment of its service, especially since it is the least capable and durable of the three deployed MJOLNIR lines. Given what the war would have required of the Spartans and their armor, it is at least quite plasuible that the early basic model would have had notable shortcomings that would be fixed or at least addressed with the issuing of superior components, the freedom to customize and modify, and perhaps even armor and refit kits that would be used to replace the earlier and/or inferior components and armor that the Mk. IV originally had.

If you compare the Halo Wars and TCP version together, it can be seen that the former provides less coverage, looser and thinner armor, and looks very "fresh" compared to the latter, which is worn in, tighter-fitting, better covered and armored along with being customized to some degree, it seems clear what is being shown; the standard model is significantly upgraded and refitted to function better in combat and different environments without being a separate or succeeding model of Mk. IV, and looks different from what it originally did.

In other words, the Mk. IV evolves and adapts to overcome its original and inherent shortcomings before it is eventually replaced by a superior model, the Mk. V.

Of course, this is only speculation at best, but it is an effort to try to come up with a plausible and reasonable explanation for the discrepancy in question without resorting to extreme statements and snap-judgement, sweeping and hyperbolic conclusions.

Inevitably, true clarification can only come from the parties involved; Bungie or statements from Micrsoft and 343 Industries. --Exalted Obliteration 05:00, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Microsoft nor 343 Industries tells McFarlane what to produce. The only thing Microsoft or 343 does is provide them assets to ensure accuracy of the product in question. Its release has absolutely nothing to do with legitimacy of canon.


 * Action figures are produced purely for collection purposes, based on either consumer demand, or the company refreshing its line to keep the brand fresh and consumers buying. Durandal-217 16:25, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

We really need to revise our canon policy. Now that 343 own the IP, the only subjects Bungie can and should make a definitive statement on are those directly pertaining to their current project, Reach - after this point, any material that comes from 343 has to be regarded as higher canon status than Bungie. Its not something I like - like a lot of us, I'd rather Bungie remain a free company and keep the Halo IP, rather than one or the other, but if a devils dowry must be paid for their independence I'm glad that Microsoft at least had the sense to set up a separate internal team to oversee it, and that they hired at least some ex-Bungie employees. --  Administrator  Specops306  -   Qur'a 'Morhek   05:07, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * It should at least be decided when to consider the aesthetics canon and when not. Because 343 seems to be pretty big on this "artistic license" thing, so you'll never know what appearance is actually canon. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 06:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * 343 Industries has been so vague and inconsistent that until they come to a solid conclusion, nothing they do should be taken higher then a grain of salt. However as of this moment Bungie is still involved with Halo, and as Subtank has gone over before, in any and all cases, anything that Bungie does with Halo is, and always will be considered a higher source of canon simply because they are the creators.


 * When the hand off between Bungie and 343 Industries occurs, then its going to be a real roller coaster. All I can hope for is that they cut the crap and start getting consistent with story and design. Durandal-217 07:47, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Durandal-217 for that explanation. :D - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 13:31, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * You're welcome Subtank. Durandal-217 20:33, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. So the debate has finally been settled once and for all. The Bungie-designed Mk. IV is the true one, and the Halo Wars and Legedns depictions are mere artistic liberties, or in other words, non-canon fakes/facsimiles.

I hereby rescind any arguments that would favor or even attempt to justify the validity of the canonically-inferior facsimiles peddled by 343 Industries that I have made in the past.

This also confirms what I have suspected recently; all visual and graphical assets that are not designed by Bungie themselves are mere artistic liberties and are therefore non-canon fakes and facsimiles. Until 343 Industries and Microsoft use Bungie-only visual assets, we can safely conclude that nothing that they depict that is not directly from Bungie are artistic liberties that are non-canon.

This and other articles should make that clear. --Exalted Obliteration 22:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I must say I am in agreement until Bungie no longer has rights to make games under the Halo IP. After that, I believe that canon must be decided by 343 as heirs to the franchise. As much as I don't like it, I know we're going to have to do our best to uphold that standard.
 * Something I must add though is that we can't say for sure whether or not the armor suits in the Reach trailer are Mk IV or Mk V. It honestly looks like a mixture of both and could be either one. Let's not jump to hasty conclusions. MC got his armor a day BEFORE the battle of Reach and this Nobel squad is seen right at the beginning of the battle. I don't think it's beyond reason to think they'd be wearing Mk V. Not to mention that the leaked screens show shield bars, a feature introduced to MJOLNIR via the Mk V.
 * Also, even though the suits are very alike, they're not exactly identical to the Cole Protocol variant as previously stated. The fusion reactor vents that are found on the shoulders of all MJOLNIR variants appear on the chest of the CP armor. There are also a few other minor differences, most of which are surely artistic misrepresentation in nature.--Nerfherder1428 22:37, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Correct on all but on count.

The Mark IV is not fully identical to the Mark V armor worn by Noble Team and the other Spartans at Reach. It is somewhat boxier and more primitive in appearance than the Mark V, so it is obvious that there would be differences between the two.

The "vents" that you refer to are actually merely part of the armor detailing, more specifically the non-colored portions of the armor. This can be found in the armor diagram of the Mark VI in the Halo Encyclopedia. If they were actual vents, we would see cooling gasses coming from them, which we don't even see in the Halo: Reach cinematic. It is clear that the symmetrical dark armor detailing is a feature seen in the Mark V and VI.

The fact that the Mark IV doesn't have it is further visual proof of its inferiority to its successors. --Exalted Obliteration 02:58, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

This entire line of thought to me at least looks piss weak saying that what the Mark V armor (as noted leak screens show shield bars) looks like has anything to do with what the mark IV looked like to me seems ridiculous. Like we could use what appearance of a Tiger II to determine what the Tiger I should look like. It's even more outlandish to me given the ever increasing number of depictions that go against the the Cole Cover and support the Halo Wars version. To toss all of that away as "artistic license" based on the fact that Mark V suits shown in Reach look vaugely, but only vaugely, like the Cole Protocol image just to me defies all logic. We could just as easily note that the armor in Halo Reach acutally looks radically different then any other models we've seen, made by beloved Bungie no less, so different that it almost looks to belong to a different design lineage. Indeed it only vaugely resembles the Master Chiefs Mk.V suit itself. For all the talk about how 343 is 'vague' in there art I'd LOVE to see the hoops you boys are gonna have to jump through to try and explain how what we see in Reach and what we see in Halo 1 are the same armor.

I also frankly notice a worrying and irritating trend throughout this comment string in which poster seem to be more or less prostrating themselves at the feet of the mighty unfailing all knowing Bungie. Get real people Bungie has produced and put out plenty contradictory images and information over the years and it's not anymore infallible then 343 is or will be. I've always found this slavish obsession with the cover art of the novel a tad baffling though honestly. The prevailing view seeming to be that the a throw away piece of art for the cover a novel only a tiny fraction of fans will probably read (just look at sales figures) would somehow be MORE accurate and subject to MORE oversight then the images used in absurdly expensive pre-rendered cutscenes in a major game release. No one seems to even consider that the process for approving the TCP cover was "eh looks good enough, print it". They seem convinced there must have been some exhaustive and well thought decision that THIS is how Mark IV looked, and not that a artist just hastily adapted an old concept image for the cover one afternoon, showed it to a few people, and then moved on.

On the flipside they seem totally willing to accept that when it came to produce a multi-million dollar game and then when contracting out millions more to Anime studios the approach was basically "lol we don't give a shit do whatever!" Clearly it's absurd to think that they'd acutally give more specific art direction to the people they're paying millions of dollars too with the end result being to produce a series of images that, while not exact duplicates, all look very similar, and nothing like the one outlier on the cover of the TCP.

No all of that is outlandish and stupid since the TCP image, despite being a single outlier different from all other deceptions of Mark VI, is vaugely associated with Bungie and so of course means it's 100% correct.--TK3997 22:15, December 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * When you can get to the point, without writing a wall of text, insulting those who believe otherwise, then I will at least give you the satisfaction of a reply. Durandal-217 00:08, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Halo Wars variation should be the main image, it has been used more than the others. It's been seen being used by oh lets see 17 (more or less) Spartans in Halo Wars, Legends (Origins, and Babysitter). It should be the main image. Also the McFarlane toyline made a Mark IV toy and it's the Halo Wars variation. The Cole Protocol ONLY APPEARS ON THE COVER OF A BOOK. EchostreamFanJosh


 * I would like to remind you of our Canon Policy where Bungie is of superior canon than third parties.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 16:57, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Image
Ok I don't think people realize that the main image for the Mark IV is the Gray Team variation. It has some sort of parts on the shoulder and there's a combat knife. This is not seen on the other variations. I think that the main image that is to be shown should be the Halo Wars version. All the Spartans in Halo Wars have the same armour and even Cal's armour looks like this. EchostreamFanJosh

I agree. The image of the grey team image is only one picture of the upper half of the armor, where as the Halo Wars armor is seen in 3d from many angles and all the armor can be seen. Also the 2010 cover of the Fall of Reach shows SPARTANs wearing the Halo Wars armor also. VARGR 01:12, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

The Package
I know it was probably cosmetic but in the package, when we saw the view of John and Fred, the HUD was exactly like Halo 3's Mark VI armor, i.e. it had a shield indicator. Are we sure it was Mark IV and not Mark VI. Guardians-117 21:25, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * The armor designs in Legends are artistic license and not canon according to Frankie. And we can be sure it's notthe Mark VI, using common sense. Mark VI wasn't around back then; the Chief got the Mark V the day before the battle of Reach.--<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 21:38, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry typo, I meant IV EchostreamFanJosh

"Artistically-Liberal"
Okay, normally I'm all for differences in opinion, but this has got to stop. Right now. I don't care if the Cole Protocol version is of "higher" canon status - implying that the Halo Wars and other similar versions are totally non-canon and unofficial, despite the fact that Bungie obviously signed off on Ensembles design by allowing them to use it, is out of line, and makes us fans look childish and petulant. They're different variants - if that doesn't solve any problems that are had, then nothing will. --  Administrator  Specops306  -   Qur'a 'Morhek   07:39, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you! The Halo Wars variant shouldn't be totally outcast and called non-canon because the cutscenes were developed by Blur. --TDSpiral94 08:00, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Though it should be taken into account that Blur most likely modeled the armor after the models seen in-game, which were in turn designed entirely with gameplay in mind; that is, giving them exaggerated features to distinguish them from other units. It's pretty apparent, looking at the chest and the shoulders. And I doubt a studio hired to do cinematics for a game would really consider the canonicity of their work; they just worked with the material they were given. But I have to agree we can't just dismiss that as non-canon, as we don't get to decide that.


 * I think the main reason to this debate is that the TCP armor actually looks more like the Mark V; not exactly similar, but something that could be its earlier version; as it's supposed to be. The Halo Wars version is so radically different it looks more like the Mark VI than a precursor to the Mk V. In fact, there is hardly any similarity other than the helmet. The angular design of the TCP armor is clearly closer to the Mark V. I think this is what makes people think of the TCP armor as more valid. Plus the fact it was made by an artist who's worked with these covers for years (AFAIK); as opposed to the people at Blur, who just got an assignment from Ensemble to do the cinematics for HW.


 * The variant explanation is the best one so far. Though I still find it hard to believe those would be the same armor as they look nothing alike. Surely they'd share some features if they were both variants of the same model. But it's the only conclusion we can come to in this debate. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 08:11, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it canonically stated that the Mark IV and V were similar in The Fall of Reach? I lost my copy a while ago, and thus can't check it myself, but as I recall John was surprised by how different it looked. Would he have felt that surprise if the Mark IV was a visual forerunner to the Mark V? In terms of similarity, though, all the bread-and-butter stuff, what makes the Mark IV what it is, is in the hardware - the circuitry and crystal gel layer underneath the external plating, as well as the fusion reactor. What goes on top of that is purely aesthetics, so long as it possesses the required ballistic protection and doesn't prohibit movement, and all the differences that we see are visual in nature, but there's no contradictions about just what each suit is capable of performing, and what technology it uses. Its analogous to saying that the CQB and EVA variants can't be Mark VI because they don't look like it. And regarding your statement about the helmet, I don't know what you mean. The TCP helmet is nearly identical to the Mark VI helmet - the visor, the sunguards (?) and lack of a vent. --  Administrator  Specops306  -   Qur'a 'Morhek   08:21, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * The only thing that bugs me about this is that we're left in the dark. There's no definite answer from Bungie or 343. So either way, we'd just be making assumptions. --TDSpiral94 09:06, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * In Fall of Reach he noticed the components were different than the Mark IV. The book never states if they were similar in appearance it only notes that the Mark V looked bulkier then the Mark IV. In terms of design Jugus has pretty much summarized my thoughts on what is actually more consistent in terms of design. More to the point the Mark IV in TCP cover depicts a rapid prototype piece of equipment which is consistent with the fiction; in response to the Covenant threat the MJOLNIR armor was rushed into service. As such additional features and advancements like the ability to interface with an A.I were scraped for later versions because of this. When you look at the TCP Mark IV, Mark V and Mark VI you see that none of them look exactly the same, however there are certain elements of the armor that lend itself to later version. This is, in my view, consistent with technological progression. The Mark IV is a prototype as such it looks rough, menacing yet incomplete, the Mark V is bulkier because of the new additional equipment added to it, and the Mark VI is a result of the technology being refined and streamlined. Things we see in all of the gadgets we use in our everyday lives.


 * The Blur version looks like the Mark V and VI meshed together and when compared with the Mark V and VI looks too much of the same and is not consistent with technological progression. Durandal-217 09:34, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. My earlier reasoning was headed in the right direction after all. Its good to see the reasoning behind why the TCP image can be made consistent with the Mark V and VI, and it makes sense. After some discussion with Specops306, I think that the edit about the advanced prototype variant or standard makes excellent sense.

I also think that both sides of this debate have excellent points, should be considered, and it should be possible to create a scenario in which both facets coexist. That said, with the appropriate correlation between the TCP Mark IV and the Mark V, they do go well together along with the streamlining in the Mark VI. Now how might the Halo Wars Mark IV fit into this technological progression?

For starters, it is best to remember the main known time-frame in which it is seen; early 2531, on Arcadia and the Flood-infested Shield World, which occurred only in the first 6 years of the war. Another thing to remember is that the armor, for all of its resemblance to the Mark VI and its relative disproportionality between the upper and lower body, it also has very thin and flexible armor. Though this may be adequate or appropriate in some circumstances, in others, it would not and could severely compromise the user's safety, even in the case of the SPARTAN-IIs'.

Combine this with the fact that the suit has never had shields in all known circumstances, and we really see this variant's noticeable weeknesses; thin armor and poor coverage to the wearer. Despite its appearance, this variant's noticeably lacking bulk as seen in its later iteration and the Mark V point to another sigh of it being primitive, but in a different way; inadequately prepared for extended battle with the Covenant. Machines that are technologically progressing aren't always bulky in their earlier stages; it is also just as possible and likely that an early version of the said item could be too light, and needs to be bulked up and reinforced, a trait that could be kept on in its successor and final iteration.

A good example of this can be seen in the Mark VI's own armor plating relative to the Mark V. Those armor pieces are less bulky but denser than its predecessors, providing similar protection which is further assisted by the system having a reliable and efficient shielding system.

So in a nutshell, the Halo Wars or "early" Mark IV is proven inadequate in terms of protection and durability, and is either conncurrent with or changed into the form that we see on Grey Team. That variant has heavier armor and superior coverage, with more parts covered than its predecessor/counterpart, all while being compact and efficient enough to not hamper the wearer. It could be so effective that it becomes the standard Mark IV for the rest of the war until it is replaced by the Mark V and VI in late 2552.

That, in my opinion, is the best way for the two versions to coexist and be part of the same technological lineage that we see in the series. Hopefully more light on this subject will be shown in the future. --Exalted Obliteration 01:24, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

"Its good to see the reasoning behind why the TCP image can be made consistent with the Mark V and VI, and it makes sense."

- Exalted Obliteration


 * This quote is sufficient enough to resolve the whole Mark IV canon issue.
 * As Jugus pointed out, Blur Studios "just worked with the material they were given" and the materials they had at that time were designs of the Mark V (HCE) and the Mark VI (H3). They were not presented any information about the armour being consistent in design or how it differs in previous models. All they had were two armour designs from two different games but decided to rely heavily on the Mark VI (H3). As per Jugus, "The Halo Wars version is so radically different it looks more like the Mark VI than a precursor to the Mk V. In fact, there is hardly any similarity other than the helmet." In that sense, the Halo Wars version is, and will always be, an artistically-liberal version of the Mark IV. Halo Wars' version is not a variant of the Mark IV, it is just a different design made by another party. This applies to the Japanese company who did the designs of the Mark IV in The Package. They are still of inferior canon than Bungie. We do determine what is canon and what is of superior canon without proper source. And as Halopedia:Canon Policy dictates, Bungie's Mark IV would still and will always be of superior canon than Ensemble's/Blur's.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 01:43, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * This article states that they were unable to get in contact with Bungie's artists too often. Not only that, but it says that a good portion of the artists hadn't even played Halo before. However, we don't know if 343 or Bungie has accepted the design as canon in the Halo universe. I'm all for the Variant idea, but there is still no definitive answer.--TDSpiral94 00:43, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Whoa, hold on a second.

The quote that you selected from my entry was meant as an acknowledgement of the arguments of the other side of the argument, which is something a person must do when involved in a debate. It is part and parcel of such a conversation, for if you are presenting a point/argument/position, you have to respectfully pay heed to the other side's material, and do so when proceeding onward.

But you did not do that; you deliberately took one sentence that suited your purposes while completely ignoring the rest of the argument that I was trying to present just becaue it didn't suit you. That is what we call misquoting and picking-and-choosing. In a debate, even one as polarized as this is, that is something that one should not do. PERIOD.

I'm sorry, but that is downright insulting and disrespectful. Whenever I get involved in any debate, I never insult and disrespect the other side no matter what, for I know how to act in a civil manner even when things don't go my way. Though I respect your opinion and one hundred percent acknowledge your rights to hold it, you failed to show me the respect that I have shown you and everyone in this online community by distorting the actual meaning, context, and intent that the sentence was part of, and deliberately using that one sentence as justification for your own argument while compeletely dismissing my own.

Doing that in a proper debate seriously undermines your own position, for it weakens your credibility if you take something they said and distort it beyond and contradictory to what they actually meant. And that comes to what I actually meant: the reasoning of the pro-TCP Mark IV is a solid and respectable argument that must be acknowledged when making one's own argument that would advocate for one's own position. The whole point of my argument was to take into account the framework that the pro-TCP Mark IV argument presented, and that it is possible to find a reasonable middle ground where both sides of the debate could coexist, rather than an either-or situation if it were possible.

But you made no attempt to acknowledge what I was trying to do despite the fact that I was doing everything that I could to acknowledge and respect the position that you hold when I presented my argument. That unto itself weakens your argument regardless of the point you were trying to make.

Please be more respectful and civil to those that you are debating with, even if you do not agree with them. Thank you. --Exalted Obliteration 00:48, December 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * lolwhut?<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 00:53, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed... anyway... it sounds like you guys are trying to retcon the Halo Wars and Halo Legends incarnations as different variations. Do you realise how far you've strayed from the light? This sort of unsourced stuff belongs on the HaloFanon wikia, not that I have a problem with that wikia, I love it. But you're really over-thinking this.


 * The fact is, before Halo: The Cole Protocol and Halo: Reach, third parties were responsible for an image of the Mark IV. Without Bungie's input they were left to their own devises, Halo Wars was even artistically liberal by giving the Spartans shields, but nevermind, it was just a gameplay enhancement. Halo Wars and Legends are lesser canon, why, because Bungie created the damn franchise and they have final say on what the armour factually looks like. So consider Halo Wars and Legends as just a representation of the armour, and that which we see in Reach as the real deal. - TheLostJedi  00:42, 27 December 2009 (GMT)


 * True. We don't decide if they're different variants or not. Maybe we should just have an "Appearances" section and detail the differences there. That way we could avoid making an assumption about them being different variants. Especially when it's possible, and likely, that they're just different visual interpretations and have no canon differences. In short, an "Apperances" section is the most neutral way to solve this without straying to fanon.--<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 01:00, December 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that would be a fair resolution to the problem. In relation to the rulebook on canon, I would suggest that the rendition from Bungie be given highest billing. - TheLostJedi  01:47, 29 December 2009 (GMT)

After looking at The Making of Origins I, I can definitely say that Mark IV armor is of the Halo Wars design in Origins II. Basically the whole video was talking about Origins together, but the visuals were mostly from Origins II.--TDSpiral94 19:08, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Other variations are other models
Think about it, the Mark IV was used for over 20 years, I highly doubt that the same piece of armor was not severaly destroyed and not replaced. It makes since that The Package and The Cole Procotol versions are later models of the Mark IV. EchostreamFanJosh


 * Logic and Common Sense would agree with you, but without any concrete evidence to support it, they are of no use to say variations are models.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 16:57, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree with Subtank. Also, that's just a theory. They might just be artistic depictions, which is most likely. We have no way to know, so they should stay in the Appearances section. That's the only way to be neutral about the subject and not assume anything.--<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 16:59, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

As to the starter of this portion, I would have to disagree. Isn't the armor depicted in "The Package" a mere stylistic interpretation/representation, and therefore cannot be taken as canon? Frankie stated this multiple times, so that should disqualify that particular depiction of the Mark IV as being canon.

That leaves only the Cole Protocol depiction as being canon from that set, which it automatically is because it was made by Bungie artist Isaac Hannaford, and is at the highest level of canonicity according to the canon scale. Another thing that should be considered is that the Bungie-created image was made at a time when Bungie was working on Halo 3:ODST and Halo: Reach. Those facts would weigh heavily on how the artist would draw the Mark IV.

This can be seen in how it matches Bungie's aesthetic when it comes to MJOLNIR armor, which is best described as a blend of ODST armor and the Mark VI mapped to whatever MJOLNIR generation they are drawing. Speaking of which, the Halo Wars and Legends depictions do not match this aesthetic, so shouldn't that be another piece of evidence against its canonicity?

It should also be noted that the Halo Wars Mark IV was designed by Blur Studios and Ensemble/Robot, which means that their work does not match up with the absolute canon standard, material straight from Bungie itself.

Whoever added the note to the Halo Wars depiction as being likely the standard variant has no corroboration. The non-Bungie use of that version says nothing about its canon status, merely the whims and choices of outside 3rd parties. I suggest that the statement be removed.

--Exalted Obliteration 02:04, February 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * No offense Exalted, but I think the previous discussion has reached a decision where, like you said, these armours are merely "stylistic interpretation/representation". However, if you're referring to the variants (EVA/CQB) seen in the episodes, it is more along where the existence of the variants are canon but the styles used to illustrate those variants aren't. Consider it to be 50%/50%.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 03:02, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well said, and I will keep that in mind.

Now that I think about it, after watching Homecoming and the Package, that much is very obvious, a concession made by 343 Industries to the studios. Anime as an art form is very stylized, especially when depicting an important character relative to the supporting caste.

If one looks carefully at Daisy-023's armor, however, parts of it have similarities to the armor depicted in "The Package", most notably the butt plate (I know it probably would have a formal name, but I just don't know what it is :p). Perhaps some sort of commonality in play, perhaps?

Another thing that comes to mind is tha the actual documentation of the trio of MJOLNIR lines employed in the Human-Covenant War has at best been poorly documented, and hopefully 343 Industries will provide such information in the future. Maybe things for a future edition of the encyclopedia or waypoint entries, perhaps?

--Exalted Obliteration 04:09, February 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would suggest staying away from printed literatures such as encyclopaedias and rely on electronic ones such as Wiki (provided that they are reliable and sourced). They are bound to be outdated and superseded by newer products.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 04:12, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Advanced Hardware Prototypes
Is this a canonical name? Do we have any sources for the designation? --  Administrator  Specops306  -   Qur'a 'Morhek   05:01, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * As the note says its just a term not an official name to at least give it more plausibility, I just borrowed it from the Halo Encyclopedia page 88 and made it more technically or at least canonically plausible or correct... As much as I could. Its the first time, and hopefully the last I have to do so. Durandal-217 05:08, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Why not just call it an "unknown variant"? We don't know if it's any more advanced than the other one, nor if it's a prototype of any kind.--<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 07:43, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry to barge in but who are we to say "This is a variant"? With that being said, I would suggest removing such information until we have proper source. I know that "Common Sense" would say another thing, but without any source to back it up, it should be removed. If we do not have the proper source presented to us, then we should not present the information in such format. I thought it has been established that the Halo Wars' version is an artistically-liberal version of the Mark IV.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 01:45, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I still do and will always, no matter what, believe and support that The Cole Protocol cover is the canonical Mark IV. If the decision were up to me I would have put the article back the way it was. I am unhappy that despite the debate, despite policy, and despite the fact that the Cole side has a lot more to back up then the Halo Wars side, our discussion and decisions were thrown out the door and this section was created without anybody's agreement. Arguing what was done at this point would only result in more frustration and the article getting locked; so I structured the section the way it is to be fair to both sides. It is a compromise. The section is also backed up by the only two logical facts that would make the Halo Wars MJOLNIR Mark IV plausible:


 * 1: The Halo Encyclopedia on Page 88-89 does say that there were multiple variants and prototypes for the Mark IV. It is the only way to legitimize the Halo Wars version, because even the Halo Encyclopedia contradicts the Halo Wars Mark IV by saying "the Mark IV did not contain magnetic holders" And that is on page 89. This is also backed up by Halo: The Fall of Reach due to the fact that the Spartans had to use adhesive strips to attach equipment and weapons.


 * 2: The only logical way to explain the look of the Mark IV in Halo Wars is to say that it is a design prototype for future variant's or Marks of the MJOLNIR Armor. Other then that the Halo Wars argument doesn't have anything to back up. The section is also structured so that if need be, the same could be said for TCP version.


 * Unless there is another agreement or another admin comes in and puts the article back the way it was before 4 days ago, then it has to stay for the sake of being fair to both sides. Make no mistake, policy still stands, however the other side is being acknowledged as well, in a fair way. Durandal-217 03:34, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for that explanation. I would suggest notifying this in the main article to avoid future confusion/debate/argument.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 00:48, December 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is, if you take a good look there is a note explaining why its there. Durandal-217 02:51, December 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * I meant as in a real notes section. For example, Cassandra-075.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 03:18, December 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * It that allowable under MOS? Because if that's the case the case I would do away with the trivia and replace it with notes and flesh it out. Durandal-217 05:46, December 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is allowed. In fact, it should be added.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 00:48, December 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK just wanted to be sure, didn't want to do something only to have it backfire. Durandal-217 07:26, December 27, 2009 (UTC

Got my official answer from 343i
Here is the link. So, this means that all variants/versions are considered canon (with possible exception of The Package). Vociferous basically says that the only thing that matters is that the internal components are the same. --TDSpiral94 06:08, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah I saw that as it was posted, basically first of all that means that any new design you see does in fact fall under an advanced hardware prototype to changes in the exterior shell. Second it means that honestly there is no real standard Mark in the MJOLNIR series, and third that no matter what version is used (excluding prototype) they all follow a technological progression.


 * The answer makes sense for the most part, the real problem being that they have gotten rid of any base line model. Every piece of hardware we use today has a base model, even on the gaming side, the base line console for example the Xbox 360 still has a basic design to it. With the MJOLNIR it should be no different, but to avoid screwing one artist over another they've gone ahead and said do whatever you want. Durandal-217 06:45, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not so worried about what the baseline model is as I was about the HW version being claimed "artistically liberal". It would've been cool to get a clearer answer, but I wasn't expecting to get an answer like I did; a lot of the questions they were asked at the ECCC Halo Panel couldn't be given an answer (the typical "we'll look at it in future fiction, but no straight answers right now"). --TDSpiral94 07:50, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * These panels are a complete waste of time, you just get little kids asking the most basic questions all the time, its embarrassing to the Halo Nation as a whole. Regardless of the answer though I will still support the Cole Protocol version of the armor because it just makes more sense from a canonical standpoint, and it fits, sure the Halo Wars version is still counted and whatever, but I still stand with what I've said, its part of MJOLNIR prototyping for future development of the MJOLNIR System. Durandal-217 08:58, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * LMFAO! That's actually what it was! Stupid questions like "Can we see more Master Chief?" or "What would you do if the Flood came?". I asked them on HBO which was one is the base model, or if we've even seen it before, but just judging from the amount of times we've seen Spartans wearing the HW version of Mark IV the most it seems like that's the base model. With TCP's version (one we've seen the least) being utilized by the elusive Grey Team, and John's team in The Package utilizing a completely different variant (maybe for "space-combat"). --TDSpiral94 16:45, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really what I expected of these "variants"... but if 343i representatives said so, so be it. Regardless, the article has been pretty accurate and up-to-date. Not much changes needed really.. :| - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 17:04, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

Daisy's CQB
So, with additional elaboration on the development history of the C variant in Halo: Reach, it seems that we - once again - have a contradiction on our hands. The description for the "CQC" variant, which is the predecessor to the "C" variant or CQB, states that this earlier model entered service in 2548. Yet, in Legends, we saw Daisy wearing an obvious CQB variant no less than roughly twenty years earlier. Obviously, the appearance in Legends is artistic license and should be treated as such, but it also means we'll have to remove the CQB info on this page. With the info from 343i about the armor components being extremely modular, we could work out an explanation that the armor seen in Homecoming is some early, unrelated model and its appearance was later incorporated to the CQB variant for some reason. I say we change the info on the page to "unknown variant" and possibly mention its aesthetic similarity to the CQB variant.--<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 16:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember to add the Conjecture templates.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 16:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll try to add no baseless conjecture so the templates won't be needed. Most of it is based on facts and I won't claim anything we don't already know. Plus, I'll supplement it with notes. I just dislike how intrusive the templates are. Feel free to add them in case the content seems too speculative. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 18:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the newly added image
This image is considered a re-retcon (such thing exist?) as Microsoft simply took the armour design from Bungie and implement it in their dramatic interpretation. This is like the Believe campaign that took place before the release of Halo 3. As such, I'm proposing to remove the section, along with the image.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 15:27, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. Microsoft even admitted themselves it is a dramatic interpretation, so details such as this one aren't necessarily canon. It doesn't even make that much sense to call it one variant since Carter's armor clearly contains parts from many different variants. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 15:35, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just want to clarify that certain details can be considered canon even if it is used in dramatic interpretation. Such example is the image of UNSC Hopeful, as we never had any image of it before, and Carter's parents...- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 15:43, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, although it's surprising how the Hopeful in the short looks near-identical to Anchor 9. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 15:46, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * It was never the Mark IV to begin with, Frankie said that at the end of the short Carter is looking at a "prototype" or as I would put it a "model" of his Mark V suit. This came from the Halo Reach Beta thread on Neogaf. here is the post. Durandal-217 21:26, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Original Mark IV
It's pretty clear now that the Halo Wars ediiton of the Mark IV is clearly the original issued Mark IV. This can be proven that Samuel is seen wearing the armor on the new Fall of Reach cover. So therefore the Halo Wars Mark IV needs to be the main image of the Mark IV page. Anybody who opposes this is obviously an idiot. EchostreamFanJosh


 * While I agree with the overall sentiment, we don't know it's Samuel. I always assumed it was John, Fred and Kelly. Sam was taller, and the Spartans on the cover don't seem to be different heights. I suppose, since we can't make out faces or body types, it's impossible to tell. --  Specops306   Autocrat     Qur'a 'Morhek   11:27, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * @Echo: lolno. Bungie's cover is still superior than 343 Industries'. Bungie remains superior until 343 Industries creates something that Bungie hasn't created; should that happen, 343 Industries will be of superior canon. @Specops306, look closely to the number on the right Spartan. You can make out the number 034, which is Samuel's SPARTAN tag.- Sketch ist 12:29, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Bungie came up with the novel covers? When did that happen? And how exactly are the original covers superior in canon? Seriously, Fall of Reach has them all in Mark V!--  Fore  run  ner  12:47, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * The main novels (FoR-CP) were made by Bungie employees, most, if not all, by Isaac Hannaford and Loraine McLees (Check the talk page archives). 343 Industries had their own artists and I guess they created the new cover for the new novels.- Sketch ist 12:57, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * no they werent. The novels were wrote by hired writers not bungie employies. It makes no sence how a picture of only some parts of an armor (chest and helmet) can be considered more canon than armor that has appeared from many angles and of all of it including the rear and legs. Since Bungie are leaving Halo after Halo: Reach it will be 343 who control the canon anyways so the Halo Wars one makes more sence. VARGR 13:11, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * written. Writers don't draw pictures. You're thinking of artists. >.< --  Fore  run  ner  13:26, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Primary Model? New clues from Halo: Reach and FoR
I know this has been discussed for ages and has gone back and forth with a varying degree of commitment from both parties. I know. But I still feel compelled to give this one last go. A few months have passed since I looked at this page and in that time, we've seen a lot of new information come and go about Halo. This includes information about the Mk IV.

Before, all our conversations resolved about what version of the Mk IV is canon and which should be placed top honors as being the "base model" or "primary model" of armor. Despite an overwhelming appearance of the armor from Halo Wars, people had decided that TCP was the only canon source because it came straight from Bungie. After Vociferous, (Somewhere above. Keep reading, you'll find it.) from 343, announced that both appearances are canon and not artistic liscence, we have a few things to hammer out.

Before, The HW version appeared on several Spartans in Halo Wars, Cal in The Babysitter in Halo Legends, and on a couple Spartans in Origins (Although these may or may not be Red Team from Halo Wars. That's a game, and two videos that support it. On the other side, we had half a picture of a Spartan in different armor on the cover of the book. Like it or not, that was the higher canon at the time due to it being a product of Isaac Hanaford, who I now know is a Bungie artist (haha). But now, there's an equal canon that contests this. The new cover of the Fall of Reach novel, also developed by Bungie, shows John and two other Spartans (sorry, can't read their tags with the quality of picture thats on the site) wearing the Halo Wars versions of the suits.

Let's recap. Every single Spartan wearing Mk IV armor, other than the one seen on the cover of TCP (and of course those in Homecoming and The Package which wear ones similar to Mk VI), has been shown wearing the HW version. We have a non-Bunge game, two 343 videos, and a Bungie book cover to support it. TCP has only the Bungie book cover. On top of this, almost all HW versions have been seen to remain identical. There is little, if any, variation from suit to suit. This suggests it is the baseline model and may represent the Spartans apprehensiveness to alter or individualize equipment at the beginning of their military careers. In the Marines today, pop culture would show that it's the grizzled veterens and lifers that have been around for a while that modify their equipment. Anyways, it's seen the most, by far, out of the other variations and, with the information given us, I thing we have overwhelming support for including the the HW armor as the picture for the article and information regarding this being the primary model that was handed to the Spartans on Chi Cheti.

As for the TCP version? This is where the other new information helps. As we had discussed many times, Gray Team was meant for sabotage, scouting, and very low-profile missions. They were not, by any definition of the word, a "normal" Spartan squad. As such, we had speculated that they would probably get specialized armor. We now have proof. In the Halo Reach beta, an attentive player can choose the Mk V "Scout" armor permutation and notice the striking similarities between the variant and that of Gray Team. It is damn near identical. Everything about it is. Not just the varaint add-ons, but the Mk. V(b) base in Reach is the same as the one worn by TCP's Spartan too. In fact, that was why several people, (including some choice administrators), jumped the gun and assumed it was Mk. IV armor without proof (Yes I was one of the ones who opposed this. As usual, I was met with the fiery rage of self-righteous internet angst). Anyways, we can interpret this in a number of ways. Is the TCP Spartan wearing prototype Mk. V? As far as I know, it's never explicitly stated in the novel. Or is he wearing Mk. IV with just a prototype chestpiece? Maybe this strange Mk. IV chest piece is what influenced the design of the Mk. V(b) in Reach, as well as the Scout permutation in that same game.

Food for thought. Anyways, the cards are on the table now and there's no denying the HW version's superior canon status as of the new Fall of Reach cover being unveiled. Arguing TCP's supperior canonicity is now completely moot. It is a variant, no more. And no more arguing about 343 ruining canon and that everything's artistic liscence because YOU don't like the way it looks. Most administrators and vets of Halopedia, as well as myself, are absolutely sick of it. After Reach, Bungie will no longer have the ultimate say on anything. 343 will be there to take its place. And although they've made a few(ha!) mistakes here and there, we need to respect their decisions since they're the one that will inherit the mantle from Bungie. I'm now just going to ask that people read all of my thoughts before they begin the time-honored tradition of spouting ignorantly biased statements with nonsensically poor grammar. Halopedia debates fall apart extremely easily when people only argue certain parts of a discussion and ignore the rest. Thanks.

Oh yeah, and sorry about the wall of text. As long as I've been here, you'd think I'd know more about formatting policy. Feel free to arrange per your choosing. I've certainly had it happen to me enough!--Nerfherder1428 16:54, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gray team's armour system is probably just updated armour components of the standard mark IV, rather than an entirely new variation. The standard mark IV was the HW-version.--  Fore  run  ner  17:04, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * The first problem is that the cover was not done by anyone at Bungie, it was done by the artists at 343 Industries. Frankie confirmed this in the NeoGaf Halo Reach Beta Thread here. Second you bring up Origins as a "ah-ha see!" moment but let me just say this. Nothing in Origins ever happened, very little of what you see ever actually happened in that specific context. So how can something like that even be brought up if it never happened. The Gravemind never handed Cortana's chip to Master Chief, so how are you so sure that that scene actually happened and they were wearing that armor.


 * Now Voc made it very clear that yes, they are both canon but none hold any sort of superiority over each other, they are what they are and nothing more. Which has led me to believe that they really haven't shown us the baseline model. Yet. So in other words for now at least our arguments still boil down to a stalemate where we are back to where we started. Durandal-217 17:22, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's interesting but irrelevent because Bungie no longer has any say. Anything post-Reach and 343 IS the ultimate authority. Our canon policy will change accordingly at that time. The information though, will not. On top of that, both sets of armor ARE canonically existant, as stated by yourself. So your first statement has indeed become irrelevent by your own argument.
 * Now that that's clear... I only mentioned Origins fleetingly, stating that even the Spartans in that may have been representations of the three members of Red team from Halo Wars. That has nothing to do with the bulk of my argument. You would do well to read that last paragraph of mine Durandal. Focus on the issue at hand, do not nitpick details for argument's sake. It is disrespectful and gets us NOWHERE.
 * Other than that, a massive amount of portrayals (Other than just Origins, believe it or not) of one kind of armor over another does indeed warrant the assumption. Especially since they are all identical and your TCP armor has been seen as a variant in Reach. You've been against me on this from the start Durandal, and I feel that you always will be. Until you bring up valid points (once again, your last contradicts your first), I can't take your arguments seriously.--Nerfherder1428 18:37, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Things fall apart when the centre cannot hold. - Yeats.
 * With that said, Bungie set the canon in stone when they created the Halo Universe. They are the core of everything that is Halo. Everything they created so far are solid canon and will remain the highest of canon. Without the core, everything around it will fall apart and will easily be torn to shreds. Bungie's creation will always remain the highest and superior of all that is in the Halo Universe and nothing can overcome that fact, unless Bungie says otherwise. 343 Industries merely expands what has been established, merely bending canon but not breaking it (though several instances showed that they have repeatedly ignored canon and made numerous errors). Even though Bungie left the stage, whatever they left behind remains superior until it has been confirmed it is no longer valid/has been retconned.
 * In the case of the MJOLNIR armour, the new FoR cover was created by 343i artists and not by Bungie artists. As such, the depictions of the Mark IV in the cover will be inferior to those in CP. However, one can assume that the cover in the new FoR is indeed an upgrade of the Mark IV as depicted in CP, but this is merely a speculation without any evidence... but the most reasonable/plausible. - Sketch ist 18:48, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Now Ascension, I knew someone would blow up about that Bungie/343i comment. But it is, once again, irrelevent. This isn't a canon debate! I might die if one more person tries to pull this stuff again. We're not talking about which superior canon because as I said from the beginning, Vociferous announced that ALL visual variations shown are canonical. There is no artistic interpretation because both sets are claimed canon. One doesn't disprove the existance of the other. I don't care about what is higher canon. That literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.


 * I'm not debating the existance of certain models (because they both canonically exist! TCP does not disprove the other versions.); I'm debating which model appears more. And that would most certainly be the Halo Wars version which has appeared on at least 15 individuals in the franchise.


 * The TCP version only appeared on one, maybe three Spartans. In that regard, the TCP version would certainly seem like a variant rather than a baseline model. Despite its higher canon status, that does nothing to support why one (half) sighting of the TCP armor would warrant it to serve as a base model rather than the HW version, which, again, has been seen unchanging and unmodified on half of the entire Spartan class. Likewise, the nature and identical suits of HW armor seen by various Spartans across various types of media show that it is not just a variant, but rather a unique baseline model of which other parts could be exchanged or added on to. Exalted Obliteration really says it best below.--Nerfherder1428 01:59, July 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your first comment was more or so along the lines of "Bungie is out once Reach is out. 343i will be superior". So, I had to outline it out; if I haven't done so, certain users will simply ignore the canon authority pyramid and make a useless claim.
 * I already provided my reply on my second paragraph, which goes as so "However, one can assume that the cover in the new FoR is indeed an upgrade of the Mark IV as depicted in CP, but this is merely a speculation without any evidence... but the most reasonable/plausible." Seriously, read it properly... it is the simplified/summarised version of what Exalted Obliteration just elaborated below... >.> - Sketch ist 14:15, July 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Haha yes. I suppose I do understand why you need to clarify then. As for your last paragraph, I didn't mean to sound ignorant. I did read it. And I agree with what you're saying... only completely opposite. And apparently, it was you who may have misread. Exalted Obiteration also said the opposite of what you are claiming. He agreed that the differences of the HW version warrant its status as the first and base system due to it being improved, rethought, and added to in other generations. It would seem that the TCP version is the updated one as it now has full torso coverage more in line with future models, specifically the Mk. Vb from Reach (And as I said before, TCP is near identical to the Mk Vb assault/scout variant from Reach).


 * The Halo Wars version is seen on half of all known Spartan IIs both before and after Cole Protocol. In fact, the first chronological portrayal of MJOLNIR armor (six years after its release) is of the HW version (and last portrayal too. Just saying). The undisputed abundance of the armor, its status as the first version seen, and the entirety of Exalted Obliteration's logical dissection below would make it seem much more likely that the TCP version is updated from the base-model HW version and not the other way around.--Nerfherder1428 16:41, July 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * While I'm in partial agreement with both of your assertion, I still feel that Halo Wars' version is not the real Mark IV as intended by Bungie... design notes from Blur Studios specifically stated that they knew nothing about Halo and that they heavily referred to the Mark VI during the development process... ugh, whatever, can't really care anymore once Bungie is out and 343i takes over... good luck with analysing canon and all stuff. Really can't be bothered with...- Sketch ist 16:52, July 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The problem with the whole thing seems to be that 343 Industries is lacking in their art/visual department; they don't seem to have a clear idea of where they're going or artists experienced with designing Halo material, just leftovers from developers who labeled the Mark IV "Halowars Masterchief Spartan". With Bungie, it was always obvious what each armor's base model looks like.


 * In a way, it's understandable that 343 uses the HW design, since that's all they have to work with in terms of references; the TCP cover just shows a small part of the suit and they don't have artists who could design the rest themselves while staying faithful to the core idea. Still, it would make a whole lot more sense for the TCP version to be the baseline model, since that would visually represent a logical step in the development towards the Mark V. It's not a matter of whether I like it more; it can be directly observed by comparing the design to the Mark V, especially the one in Halo: Reach. The Gray Team armor may be partially customized, but at least the chest and the forearms would most likely be default, judging by the amount of customization options in the games.


 * Still, as of now, the explanation by Exalted Obliteration makes the most sense. But I wish 343i gets their visual stuff together in the future so we can clearly determine what the default, baseline Mark IV looks like. An explanation like "they're all different variants" doesn't really help at all. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 14:08, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Though I am no canon wiz, I am somewhat inclined to agree with Nerfherder1428. When I look at the 3 presumed "core" variants/models of the Mark IV, certain features immediately capture my attention.

The Halo Wars/Origins/343 Industries version, for all of its resemblance to the Mark VI, nevertheless is actually strikingly different. The chest pieces, for instance, are loosely-attached, almost free-floating panels with a noticable empty space behind them. Going further, the entire upper torso section, front and back, is fairly loosely attached, with many openings and visible cavities. Another feature that is distinct from all other MJOLNIR iterations are the pauldrons; they are also loosely attached, and are apparently fixed via an unseen strip of material on top of each shoulder.

This is strikingly different from every other iteration of MJOLNIR known to date; their pauldrons are attached to the upper arm armor segments, leaving the shoulder joints more flexible and therefore more efficient. The "girdle" is the smallest, tightest, thinnest, and most flexible compared to the other MJOLNIR models, and there are no visible under-armor components that are visible in the other Mark IV models, especially the ones used by Grey Team, and in turn the Mark V, and to some the degree the Mark VI.

If anything, those iterations and models have tighter, denser, more efficient armor structures while apparently retaining if not gaining great flexibility and agility, while also enjoying superior protection. Even the iteration seen in "The Package" shares similar functional and aesthetic features. Speaking of which, if any Mark IV model could be called an advanced hardware/component prototype, it would probably be that one. In fact, it may very well turn out that those models were the origin for the functional and aesthetic structure of the MJOLNIR: Black models and ultimately the Mark VI itself.

The next point of consideration regarding the HW/HL Mark IV is that it has never been shown to have visible components swapped out, added, or changed. No helmets, chest pieces, pauldrons, etc. have been changed. What might this mean? Perhaps this iteration does not lend itself well to changing of components, and may be one of a number of reasons that its specific structure was abandoned for future MJOLNIR generations in favor of the structures that would be seen in the Mark V and VI models.

So in all, from a lack of reinforced armor structures to numerous openings for attack, insufficient armor thickness, a seeming inability to efficently customize, and unnecessarily loose, segmented armor components, the number of functional weaknesses apparent in these models would logically make them inferior to all other MJOLNIR models, which do not share their shortcomings.

That, in my humble opinion, would be a good set of reasons to at least suspect the version in question is indeed the Mark IV baseline. Something with so many functional and practical flaws should mark it as the starting attempt in what will be a long-running series of upgrades, experimentations, etc. that culminate in the Mark V and VI generations. --Exalted Obliteration 22:45, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Daisy-023's Armor
I'm watching Homecoming at the moment and listening to the director's commentary, and I found sohme information that is very relevant to this article.

More specifically, in regard to that "unknown variant" in the variant section.

According to the commentary, specifically Mr. O'Connor's, the armor is colored the way it is partly because it is a measure to camoflouge the armor relative to its environment, in this case the reddish desert Daisy is in. But more significantly, it is an aesthetic concession to the the studio to let them have a specific artistic flourish for the episode.

The same is true for the armor itself; it is an aesthetic "cheat" given to IG and a nod towards multiplayer gamers who use the CQB variant.

So in short, these features are canon in the sense that some level of camoflouge is employed, while the rest are simply aesthetic touches that nod towards multiplayer fans while letting the studio employ some visual variety.

I will edit the article to reflect these facts, and recommend that the image and its information be removed.

The variant doesn't exist at all, so there is no purpose for it to be in the article.

--Exalted Obliteration 23:35, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Article Cleanup
I'd like to suggest this article be marked for a good cleanup. At the very least there seem to be a boatload of grammatical issues (of varying severity), plus scattered direct quotes from canon material which don't appear to be cited properly ElFroCampeador TALK 23:54, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've cleared up the citation part, if there are any grammatical issues, address them so long as it doesn't change how it was initially presented in official sources. The article already went though a major clean up, so as I see it, it only needs corrections nothing more. Durandal-217 02:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)