Talk:Sangheili/Archive 3

Ranks are a Mess
I'm not sure if it is against the rules to re-post this or not, so please forgive me, but the issue just keeps being pushed aside, when changes desperately need to be made.

Everyone seems to be aware of the massive mess that the upper ranks of the Sangheili Ranking Structure suffered since the release of Reach and Anniversary. Here I'm going to attempt to explain my theory. This has been well thought out and gone over with other Sangheili canon fanatics of various Sangheili themed clans. (Yes I am apart of one, don't judge me.) Now let me proceed. I believe once a sangheili reaches the rank of General, they can be put into one of two positions. They can obtain the TITLE of Field Master or Ship Master. This is justified by the Generals we see commanding ground troops in Reach (Field Master), as well as Ardo, the Shipmaster of Ardent Prayer. General is too low of a rank to be qualified to reach the TITLE of Fleet Master, which is why we have never seen one, and never will. This is justified by the Special Operations Ship and Fleet Masters we've seen, who do not dawn the gold armor. As well as the Arbiter. Now I probably should have stated this earlier, but I call Field, Ship, and Fleet Master titles, because it is simply an extra position added to your rank. Rank is the physical changes in armor and color. Title is your role. Moving on...

Once a General is promoted, they become a Zealot. From there, a Zealot will have another choice (Whomever decides which path is chosen is beyond me, likely a lesser prophet, but that is pure conjecture). They will either become golden armored Zealots, and remain in the procession o nf "Master" titles (Field Master, Ship Master & Fleet Master), or they will become maroon Zealots, apart of a commando detachment unit compromised o nf all Zealots and a Field Marshall subclass to hunt down intel or artifacts of religious value to the Covenant. This is supported by all the golden Zealots we read about in the Halo books, as well as the ones we've seen in Halo CE(A) and Halo 2; ranging from Field Masters, Ship Masters, and Fleet Masters, all described as Zealots and as golden. The maroon Zealots are obviously from Reach, and could as well include Thel 'Vadam's all Zealot lance, making the soon to be Arbiter the Field Marshall of the squadron, considering their color was never said, it can be deduced they were indeed maroon Zealots. Now to get to the big boys...

Supreme Commanders. Once a Zealot Fleet Master is granted permission to lead a large Fleet or a Combined Fleet rather than a Task Force or a small Fleet, they will be granted the title or rank of Supreme Commander. There is evidence for Supreme Commander being both a Rank and a Title. I personally lean towards a title, due to the only evidence of it being a rank is the Comic Book which depicts the Purple-clad Commander. And obviously Imperial Admirals command the entire Covenant Navy.

Now please, I would love to hear some input on this, but more importantly, I would like to see change. I am not the best editor when it comes to wikia, and I would be honored to have people help work on this mess. It is so wrong the way it is right now, and it bothers me greatly. Thank you for your time.--Xzan Tamasee 23:19, 24 December 2011 (EST)


 * So it goes:


 * - Minor (BLUE)
 * - Major (Officer) (RED)
 * - Ultra (WHITE)
 * - General (Field Master/Ship Master) (GOLD)
 * - Zealot (Field Master/Ship Master/Fleet Master [small fleets & task forces]/Artefact Squad) (GOLD/CRIMSON)
 * - Supreme Commander (Fleet Master [large and combined fleets]) (GOLD/PURPLE)
 * - Imperial Admiral (ORNATE WHITE AND GOLD)


 * The problem I have with this, is that if colour distinquishes rank, we have three ranks which are Golden. Personally, to identify rank correctly, I think I have to stop thinking in terms of sub-ranks and titles to a certain degree.


 * This is what we know is certain:


 * - Minor (BLUE)
 * - Major (RED)
 * - Ultra (WHITE)
 * - General (GOLD)
 * - Imperial Admiral (ORNATE WHITE AND GOLD)


 * This is my judgement:


 * Based on sources that the position of "Ship Master" can be granted to a number of different ranks, I believe this to be just a title. For the same evidence and reasoning, I would class "Fleet Master" as another title. To make things easier, I will presume (unless there are sources which grant evidence for my reasoning) that "Field Master" is also a title. Because of more than one appearance of Gold coloured elites as a "Supreme Commander" I deduce that this is yet another title (attributing the Purple armour of Thel 'Vadamee in The Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor to artistic license, which I would like to note is something not uncommon to the Halo franchise).


 * Based on recent sources which regard being a "Zealot" as more of an ideology than rank, I would classify this simply as an inclination felt by certain devoted Sangheili, and as a title if necessary. As a title, it is logical for "Zealot" to be held in concurrence with other titles. Having more than one title exists as per Ship Masters who are also Fleet Masters. There are also the bonus titles of Aristocrat and Kaidon.


 * The Zealots and Field Marshals of Halo: Reach we know belong to the Ministry of Fervent Intercession. It is obvious to me that these elites, like Stealth, Spec Ops and Ranger specialists do not pertain to the standard uniform ranking system and therefore do not need to be placed within it. Although it is certain that they all hold the title of "Zealot."


 * Finally "Imperial Admiral" is one of the highest known ranks used by the Sangheilian military.


 * Although your theory is certainly possible, I am sorry that I cannot commit myself to fully agreeing with it. I feel my conclusion involves less conjecture and is a more reasonable analysis of the evidence that we've seen within the series. The same as you, I would just like to form some consensus on the subject, for the better of Halopedia. So I greatly value your interest. :)


 * What do you think about that? - TheLostJedi  01:54, 3 January 2012 (EST)

As per your whole beginning, you restated what I wrote. Field, Ship, & Fleet Master are titles. However, your next paragraph about Zealot I disagree with. Zealot is specifically a rank, that is divided into two subclasses that I stated in my original post. The Golden Zealot commanders of the infantry, and the special mission type Crimson Zealots. This is directly supported by the description of the Zealot in the CEA Library. 

And everything else is also a rephrase of what I said of sorts. So it seems you only disagree with the Zealots, and provided the evidence on the table, and the fact that there are no Zealots of other ranks. (Ex. We never see Ultra Zealots or Major Zealots). I would have to disagree. I put a lot of effort into cracking this system. It took me months. I appreciate the replies at least. I am just hoping one day to get this changed onto the actual site. Evidently this is proving difficult lol --Xzan Tamasee 21:25, 4 January 2012 (EST)


 * Ah... now I have never seen the Library article for Zealots, as I don't own a Kinect. But this changes everything. At least in regard to how I perceived Zealots. ;)


 * Wish I saw that image before I uploaded a load of images to my user page. But it means only minimal changes are required. I've also put a lot of thought into ranks, so try not to take all of the credit buddy. We're a team, and I'm certain we'll soon get this done. :)


 * I've started to add a load of information to my user page in order to make it easier to figure this all out. Tomorrow I'll finish what I've started and upload a newer version of the Military Titles image to remove Zealot from there and anchor it in the MoFI. I plan to add information and sourcing for the rest of the ranks and titles, as well as a list of changes we're going to need to make to current articles. This is no doubt a big project. So I see having some kind of guide and unity would be a benefit. I'll let you know when it's done as I'm looking forward to fixing this with you. :D - TheLostJedi  00:54, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Thank the lord I have found someone who knows how and has the initiative to edit these pages. I am so very excited this will finally be rectified! Unfortunately I am of no help with the editing, but if you need to consult me with any information do not hesitate! My xbl gamertag is Avu Med Telcam. You can message me there, or on Bungie.net if you need to contact me since I am not aware of any chatbox or private messaging system on this site. Once again thank you for having the initiative to tackle the editing involved in this great change!--Xzan Tamasee 17:21, 5 January 2012 (EST)


 * Thanks! I'm sure your consultation will prove very intrinsic. In fact, once I've finished my analysis within the nexy few days, perhaps you could take a look at it for me please? Let me know if there's anything you believe is incorrect, etc. Then perhaps I could begin editing these articles. I'll fire you an Xbox Live message anyway once I'm finished soon. Nice Gamertag! Haha. ;) - TheLostJedi  08:18, 6 January 2012 (EST)

Excellent! Contact me whenever you need to. I look forward to seeing progress.--Xzan Tamasee 18:51, 7 January 2012 (EST)


 * I've been a little busy and have had to put this on hold. But it looks like some other users have made some progress. I'll come back by the end of the month and finish my user page. Then make some edits. ;) - TheLostJedi  07:01, 12 January 2012 (EST)

I've been waiting to say this: It's the end of the month :D--Xzan Tamasee 19:39, 31 January 2012 (EST)

...please can we begin work on this?--Xzan Tamasee 21:21, 3 February 2012 (EST)
 * Why don't you do something?--

I am a horrible wikia editor, as I stated, which is why I need the help of someone who knows what they are doing. I am very busy with my Fleet as well, so even if I did know how to properly move and edit articles, I don't have the time.--Xzan Tamasee 22:39, 3 February 2012 (EST)


 * Nearly two months... can anyone please start on this? I hate seeing how wrong the system is right now. If I was a competent editor for wikia I would do this myself.--Xzan Tamasee 10:59, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * This isn't a wikia wiki :/ .--  Fore  run  ner '' 12:43, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * Well, perhaps make a bullet point of what other users can do for a start?— subtank  19:37, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * Start from scratch. Maybe we could have a series of descending lists referring to the standard ranking scheme shown by (I think) TheLostJedi; another list could be used to refer to specific titles or specialised ranks (SpecOps). Alternatively, we could make a separate article all together to start over.-- 77.97.158.189 12:27, 21 February 2012 (EST)

A Brief Outline:

-INFANTRY
 * Minor
 * Major/Officer
 * Ultra

-FIELD & NAVAL COMMAND
 * General: Titles of Field or Ship Master
 * Zealot Crimson (Special Missions) / Zealot Golden (Commanders): Titles of Field, Ship, or Fleet Master
 * Field Marshall (Leads Crimson Zealots): Titles of Field or Ship Master
 * Supreme Commander (Either a Title of Gold Zealots or Rank of it's own, evidence for both.)
 * Imperial Admiral

-SPECIAL OPERATIONS
 * Spec Ops Elite
 * Spec Ops Officer
 * Spec Ops Commando (See Huki 'Umamee.)
 * Spec Ops Commander: Titles of Field, Ship, or Fleet Master

-FLEET SECURITY
 * Stealth Elite/Ossoona
 * Ranger
 * Fleet Security Officer (See Usze 'Taham. Don't know why this rank was never listed.)

-HIGH COUNCIL
 * Councilor

-HONOR GUARD
 * Honor Guard
 * Honor Guard Ultra (Or Light of Sanghelios, whichever one.)

-CIVILIAN
 * Aristocrat
 * Elder
 * Kaidon
 * Oracle Master

-OTHER
 * Ascetic
 * Weapons Master (See Sanj'ik.)
 * Arbiter

-'REFUMEE'S HERETICS
 * Minor
 * Major

Ending Notes: Now I have pondered what to name these two different Zealots for the time being until more light is shed on the process. I have personally nicknamed the Red Zealots "Clerical Zealots" because their work seems to heavily involve their Ministry and to further advance the Covenant Religion. The Golden Zealots I have nicknamed "Martial Zealots" because of their role of commanding. If you wish to use these instead of Red Zealot and Gold Zealot, go ahead. I won't get involved in a debate about that, I am merely throwing it on the table because it sounds very uneducated to just call them Red and Gold.--Xzan Tamasee 15:33, 21 February 2012 (EST)

Anyone up for the task?--Xzan Tamasee 09:25, 25 February 2012 (EST)


 * Sorry guys. I've been MIA for quite some time hehe. I'd like to help out sooner rather than later, but half my time is spent running a society now. So if you do decide to wait for me to edit, you might have to wait until July. Yikes! Otherwise I recommend this outline for a table:

-CONVENTIONAL MILITARY RANKS
 * Minor
 * Major
 * Ultra
 * General
 * Imperial Admiral

-MILITARY TITLES
 * Field Master
 * Ship Master
 * Fleet Master
 * Supreme Commander

-MINISTRY OF FERVENT INTERCESSION
 * Zealot
 * Field Marshal

-FLEET SECURITY
 * Stealth
 * Ossoona
 * Ranger

-SPECIAL OPERATIONS
 * Trooper
 * Officer
 * Commander

-CULTURAL AND POLITICAL OFFICES
 * Arbiter
 * Ascetic
 * Councilor

-HONOUR GUARD OF THE COVENANT
 * Honour Guardsman
 * Lights of Sangheilios

-CIVILIAN TITLES
 * Aristocrat
 * Kaidon
 * Elder
 * Oracle Master

-'REFUMEE HERETICS
 * Minor
 * Major

An explanation for such can be found on my user page. All the best and good luck. - TheLostJedi  11:55, 28 February 2012 (EST)

Interesting way to break down the ranks, but you're missing Fleet Security Officer and Spec Ops Commando.--Xzan Tamasee 21:30, 29 February 2012 (EST)

And Weapons Master--Xzan Tamasee 10:08, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Here's a crazy idea: remove the entire section on Rank Structure and simply use the Sangheili Rank template. The template is doing a great job of organising each title, rank and group into their respective category... so, why not replace everything in the Rank Structure section with the Sangheili Rank template. It seems that summarising them in a concise manner hasn't work quite well since 2007 and it simply causes more confusion. If readers want to learn the ranks/titles/groups, they can simply click the link. On that point, Arbiter and Councilors are titles, not ranks. The same could be said for the Honor Guardsmen/Guard Ultra and Ascetics but they are neither rank or title; they are a group within the Covenant. Thus, it would be inappropriate to put them under the Rank Structure section.— subtank  09:44, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Good News!
I've updated the table. Refined it with simpler groupings and headings. And also included missing titles and ranks which should have been added. I'm probably gonna be busy until the end of this week. After then however, I should be able to really give these squid-jaw bastards some proper TLC. First on my agenda will be the actual rank section on this page. It's so hideous right now with a huge table, followed en masse with several other ranks and titles with just links. So I plan to make it look a bit more uniform and presentable, checking information and sources as I go. Then take it from there, making slight improvements outward towards the other articles themselves. All those in favour? - TheLostJedi  04:12, 12 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Although I have zero editing skills I'd be more than happy to offer canonical advice.--Xzan Tamasee 21:58, 13 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Alright I just had a chance to quickly skim through everything, It looks very nice. One point of disagreement I'd like to raise is the place of the Commando. From what we know in Halo 3, Commando's were apart of the Special Warfare group. The only other time in the fiction we see the phrase Commando is Special Operations Commando Huki 'Umamee. To me it seems like we can narrow it down to Special Operations Commando being the full name of the rank, and it being placed in Special Operations, for obvious reasons. If you do not accept the idea that these two ranks are linked, at least accept the fact that Huki was addressed as a Special Operations Commando, and that it deserves it's own rank in the Special Operations ranking tier. I would assume between Officer and Commander.--Xzan Tamasee 22:05, 13 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Oops, sorry for the massive amount of editing, but just before I went to bed I noticed that there is no distinction between the Maroon and Gold Zealots yet, but that seems like a project for another time.--Xzan Tamasee 22:08, 13 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Unless I'm mistaken, I believe your point is that the Commando Unit referenced in Halo 3 and the Special Operations Officers also known as Commandoes are the same rank, if not being somehow related?


 * It's true that both are part of the Special Warfare Group, but it's not specified as to which section the Commando Unit actually belongs; Special Operations or Fleet Security. For all we know, they may even be their own division alongside SpecOps and Fleet, as unit may refer to a singular rank or larger group. Therefore I felt the most appropriate/unbiased place to list the Commando Unit in the table was in the Miscellaneous row, instead of adding it to one of the other divisions or creating a new row entitled 'Special Warfare Group' solely for the purpose of listing the Commando Unit. Which would make the table unecessarily bigger and have the potential to cause confusion alongside the other rows; SpecOps and Fleet, due to the Special Warfare Group being their parent division.


 * Halo 3 is set in a post-Schism era, and discriptions for the Commando Unit state that they are newly formed. This implies that the Commando Unit is a new part of the Separatist military. Probably not like anything we have seen. In-game SpecOps Elites also don the Assault harness in Halo 3, going further to suggest that the two are different things. If you disagree my points, please go ahead and dispute them if you can justify it. I want to make sure that I do this right. And your input is sincerely appreciated. :) - TheLostJedi  20:34, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

I really don't want to argue anything to be honest. It's alright if the Commando Unit from Halo 3 is it's own branch. But what I will say is that Huki 'Umamee was addressed as a Special Operations Commando. So even if the Halo 3 Commando and Huki are not one in the same rank, it was literally written that Special Operations Commando is a rank. It may have nothing to do with the Halo 3 Commandos, but the fact of the matter is that Spec Ops Commando is not recognized on the ranking tier here even though it was cited as a rank in Halo: The Flood. So what I'm basically saying is you can keep the Commando Unit page where it is, but there needs to be a page made in the Spec Ops section for Special Operations Commando. Because it's just wrong to list Huki as a Spec Ops Officer even though his rank is Spec Ops Commando.--Xzan Tamasee 14:46, 17 March 2012 (EDT)


 * According to the Spec Ops Officer article, the officers are informally known as Commandoes. - TheLostJedi  22:38, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

There is no source for that, and after reading the chapter that it came from you can tell someone was just lazy and didn't want to create a Spec Ops Commando page.--Xzan Tamasee 21:33, 21 March 2012 (EDT)
 * The only sourcing that's currently listed for the Officer article is Halo: The Flood. I wonder whether the Halo Encyclopedia or Essential Visual Guide actually refer to the rank as Officer. I don't have any of those other texts, which I'd need to to look into this further. Do you and if so, can you provide some sourcing for that article please? - TheLostJedi  05:08, 23 March 2012 (EDT)


 * I think only the Encyclopedia does refer them as the same rank. The EVG does not have a page about Elite Majors. — S331 Bubbleshieldhud.svg(COM • Mission Log • Profile) 07:34, 23 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Thanks for the confirmation on Commandoes. That's interesting in regard to the Elite Major... it would suggest that the Elite Officer and Major are one and the same, something I've personally felt ever since Halo: Reach released. Other sources dispute this though. Unfortunately I think we have to treat them as two separate ranks, or the Officer as a sub-class at least. I've made some headway on the table re-structuring and will continue as soon as I get the opportunity. Let me know what you think. :D - TheLostJedi  15:28, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Fleet Security Officer (See Usze 'Taham. Don't know why this rank was never listed.)--Xzan Tamasee 18:09, 24 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Not a rank. Check the source.— subtank  18:14, 24 March 2012 (EDT)

I don't understand some of your thought process. It's evident that 'Taham is a rank in Fleet Security that is currently undefined. There are no other Maroon clad Elites in Assault Harnesses seen anywhere else in the game. We know he serves Fleet Security and sees combat. Just like "Honor Guard Ultra", his rank does not have an official name, but because there is a lack of name doesn't mean the rank does not exist. It's pretty clear 'Taham is a rank in Fleet Security, and until specified I'd suggest keeping it Fleet Security Officer.--Xzan Tamasee 11:18, 25 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Fleet Security Officer is not a rank as it has not been stated as such in any source. Fleet Security is a group within the Covenant SpecWar Group; thus his rank is of the unknown since it was never provided; hence, following the structure of the Covenant's SpecOps since they too don't follow the normal Covenant ranking system, he could be a Trooper/normal infantry within the specwar group, Sub-commander/Officer or a Commander (very unlikely) within the Fleet Security group. As such, his rank would be of the unknown... but it exists within the group. And I'm very sure it won't be "Fleet Security Officer" unless a source expressly says that.
 * As for Honor Guard Ultra, I think it has been resolved that that title is fan-given and that the official one is "Light of Sanghelios". — subtank  13:52, 25 March 2012 (EDT)
 * What you said there just proves my point. The title is fan given. You just provided examples of other fan given names that could be used instead (Fleet Security Trooper, Officer, Commander), But I simply chose Officer because it was already listed as such. The fact of the matter is the rank exists, he was a playable character in Halo 3. As for Lights of Sanghelios, if you look at the source, it never really says they were talking about Honor Guard Ultras, that could be a different rank entirely, but I'm not going to dispute it.--Xzan Tamasee 21:37, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
 * My point is that we should avoid using fan-given titles even though the title exists but the title of the title is unknown. This is because this practice has stirred quite some trouble and confusion within the Halo community (such case being the Prophet Flood form, of which we thought that it is a distinct flood form but the title of the form is unknown. As such, "Prophet Flood Form" was attached to the form). The examples I gave of a SpecWar ranking groups are simply examples and not suggestions for what the Fleet Security group should have; it's an indication that SpecWar groups don't follow the standard Covenant ranking system and that they have their own rank system.
 * As for the Light of Sanghelios/Ultra-Honor Guard, check the talk page. The article hasn't been updated properly ever since the merge.— subtank  07:30, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

You make the statement that the Honor Guard Ultra page hasn't been updated, but it's been that way for so long. I mean, McFarlane is even making a Fleet Security Officer (Or whatever you want to call it) Action Figure. How could you not justify acknowledging it? To avoid confusion, you could easily name the page "Fleet Security (Unknown Rank)" or simply state in the article that the actual rank name is unknown? To not include it even though it has been seen both in game and as an action figure is a little bit absurd.--Xzan Tamasee 10:49, 1 April 2012 (EDT)


 * Outdated articles are quite common in Halopedia (for example, we still have Johnson's Boren Syndrome being a real (in a fictional sense) disorder that saved him from the Flood infection in several articles). Hence why it is important to refer to the talk pages for clarification when you discover some inconsistencies. I am not aware of McFarlane's action figure (even after a quick search in Halopedia, Waypoint and spawn.com revealed nothing). I am not arguing that we should not include it; rather, we should avoid using fan-titles and add in speculative descriptions of the rank.
 * On the point of creating an article about it, just add it in as a simple mention under the Rank Structure section instead since we know little about the rank.— subtank  10:53, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

It wouldn't make sense to add it to the subject of another rank in Fleet Security because it is so different than Stealth Elite or Ranger. I would really vouch for having it's own page. We know it is in Fleet Security, we know it sees a lot of combat, and we know it is seen as lower than Honor Guards. There are pages on this site will less information than that.--Xzan Tamasee 14:49, 2 April 2012 (EDT)


 * I would like to redact some of my comments after much research (much thanks to this discussion). From what I've read, Usze is not a Fleet Security officer but an military individual that operates under the Fleet Security (this affiliation was also used in EVG). B.net's biography of Usze does not mention his position in a military unit (i.e. Rangers, Stealth) or of his rank (as we've discussed so far). From what I am able to analyse in my spare time of an hour, Usza is a Stealth Sangheili with the reason being that (1) he wore an Assault Harness, a combat armour worn by SpecOps as seen in H3; and (2) as seen in H:Anniversary, Stealth Sangheili wore H:Reach's SpecOps harness. Linking these two would support this new revelation. I conclude that Usze does not hold any rank under Fleet Security division but he does hold one (of an unknown title) under the Stealth Sangheili (of which operates under the Fleet Security division). With that said, there is no point of making any mention of the rank since we really have nothing/no-such-information/zero-information on the rank. — subtank  15:25, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

A maroon Stealth elite that doesn't use camo? That logic really doesn't make much of any sense to me. Also the fact that Stealth elites have less shielding than regular elites would typically disqualify using them as a playable campaign character. Your conclusions seem to be baseless.--Xzan Tamasee 21:46, 2 April 2012 (EDT)


 * Because such ability was not made available in Halo 3 (and also the fact that 4-player co-op is not necessarily canon as the two additional characters do not appear in the cutscenes or even mentioned in other media) and it was made for gameplay purposes/balancing. The perfect example to illustrate this is the absence of camouflage ability for the Arbiter in Halo 3, which was replaced with a measly flashlight. In-universe, of course, then it might be a different story and yes, my conclusion may appear baseless but not when coupled with this out-universe information.— subtank  21:56, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

So if Halo 3's four player co-op is not canon, (Even though it is, which is why bungie made the backstory for each one) then Taham doesn't exist canonically. Also, the rank is seen in other media. It's seen both as an action figure, and in the Package, what seems to be a Fleet Security Officer is seen carrying out Luro's orders.--Xzan Tamasee 21:25, 3 April 2012 (EDT)


 * I never said it is definitely not canon; it is simply not necessarily canon, hinting that certain elements are canon while some are not. Your approach to this appears to be "black and white". Consider this alternative approach instead; the two Elites do exist someplace else in Halo 3 (as evidenced by their biographies) but their appearances in co-op aren't (limited by gameplay, and the fact that neither appeared in cutscenes). In other words, they were present during the events of Halo 3, but they were not present to assist the Master Chief as we do not see them at all in any cutscenes.
 * I've double checked with action figures articles and sources and found none, so it would be appreciated if you could enlighten me which action figure you're referring to. Also, the bridge officer is unlikely a member of Fleet Security (but he is within the Navy). Also, the visuals presented in The Package is entirely artistic interpretation and is not necessarily canon (unless Unggoy really do have green blood as opposed to their original "teal/blue").— subtank  21:53, 3 April 2012 (EDT)

File:Halo_Universe_1_Elite.jpg <<< That is the action figure I am talking about. And honestly? So now every character in the package is void too? What else would that elite be? Spec Ops? Infantry? It's obviously Fleet Security, and it is the exact same as the action figure and Taham. You even see them in The Return. Honestly I am tired of playing this game. I've given enough evidence. I obviously do not know how to create pages, and it's obvious you won't admit that it is a rank to make one. So for me this is a fool's argument. I can get no where. There is your evidence, do with it what you wish. I'm finished here.--Xzan Tamasee 08:40, 4 April 2012 (EDT)


 * I'll make this as a final post to your final comment:
 * Note how it says "Elite Commando", referring specifically to the SpecOps as none under Fleet Security uses the title of "Commando". The fact that this title was chosen means that it is not Usze (as Usze is not under SpecOps). The colour scheme used in the action is questionable as it is the same as Usze's. However, since it's still a working prototype, it might change. In the event that it stays the same, then it is an indication that it might represent a ranking system within the SpecOps or a unit within the SpecOps. Again, I might be wrong if the action figure would be released as Usze.
 * As for The Package, I simply said that the visuals are not necessarily canon; I did not say that they are definitely not canon (i.e. totally void). I don't have to repeat this as you can read it well in the previous comments. With that said, what we see in the short should not be taken as fully canon (added emphasis to avoid repeated misconception); consider artistic interpretation, oversights, contradicting visuals.
 * Again, your evidence on the Flight Security is based on outdated and wrongfully-interpreted information and I am only intervening to correct them. My analysis of Usze's biography (supplemented with EVG and H:Anniversary's account of the Stealth Sangheili) shows that much of Usze's current profile in Halopedia is not accurately presented (though it's only minor). I guess we would need another individual to sort out this debate for our sake.
 * An alternative to this analysis would be to say that Usze operates as a staff of Fleet Security and that the harness he utilised is not entirely exclusive to one group of the Special Warfare Group (evidence of this being that Rtas also wore Assault harness). Regardless, there is no source that states his rank nor can we make an assumption of his rank since nothing was given about it. In other words, regardless of the needless discussion about Usze and his speculated position in Fleet Security, "Fleet Security Officer" is not a rank as described in any source (other than Halopedia). The primary (and only) source does not present this rank at all nor has it made any attempt in describing his rank. — subtank  10:28, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

Just gonna say, you were the one arguing that we don't know the name of it. Fleet Security Commando would be the proper name then. Hence Taham's bio saying he is in Fleet Security, which you continually seem to ignore. Also, earlier you shot down my proposal to have Spec Ops Commando as an official rank even though it is mentioned in the Flood. Now you seem to be bringing it up.--Xzan Tamasee 10:31, 4 April 2012 (EDT)


 * Guess we need to do this differently.
 * "Just gonna say, you were the one arguing that we don't know the name of it. Fleet Security Commando would be the proper name then. Hence Taham's bio saying he is in Fleet Security, which you continually seem to ignore."
 * Yes and I still stand by the principle that we should not be giving it fan-titles (as we discussed before). And I am not ignoring the fact that he is not in Fleet Security. Rather, I am trying to point out we should not make any speculation as to what rank he would fall in since he is in Fleet Security. As I said before, "there is no source that states his rank nor can we make an assumption of his rank since nothing was given about it". The best we can say about Usze is that he is a staff of Fleet Security since that's how it was presented in his biography in Bungie.net. This is the best approach, one that is neither fanon or speculative.
 * "Also, earlier you shot down my proposal to have Spec Ops Commando as an official rank even though it is mentioned in the Flood. Now you seem to be bringing it up."
 * I did not say anything on the subject shutting down your proposal for SpecOps Commando article. I was not involved nor bring myself into involvement in your discussion with LostJedi on SpecOps Commando.— subtank  10:44, 4 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Edit: apparently, it was me who inserted "fleet security officer" into the article back in 2010. So much for the principle of "don't use fan-title", heh? This is exactly why we should avoid adding speculative content to articles because they end up giving false information to users such as yourself. — subtank  11:04, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

"there is no source that states his rank nor can we make an assumption of his rank since nothing was given about it". Didn't that article just say Commando?--Xzan Tamasee 11:22, 4 April 2012 (EDT)--Xzan Tamasee 11:22, 4 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Which article? — subtank  12:44, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

The action figure article says Commando Elite (Halo 3). So I take it the proper name would be Fleet Security Commando.--Xzan Tamasee 15:05, 4 April 2012 (EDT)


 * It says Elite Commando (Halo 3) because it is referencing the SpecOps Elites from Halo 3. The reason why they chose a general title such as "Elite Commando" is for the casual fans of the franchise (since they don't hold much care for canon and simply want it because it's an action figure from the Halo franchise) and not specifically for canon preachers/hardcore canon fans. Please also refer to my previous comment on this as I don't want to copy+paste the whole comment again as it is a waste of space (and that scrolling up to the comment takes no longer than a second). — subtank  15:55, 4 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Actualy, in a later post they refer to him by name - DefeatingLine 17:21, 4 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Then we are in crossroads. Is "Elite Commando" simply a placeholder for the prototype? Time will tell when the action figure is released to the public. Until then, I guess we could go along with what Xzan proposed: "Fleet Security Commando".— subtank  18:34, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

Great. Now all I have to do is work on two other things.

1. Getting Spec Ops Commando recognized as a rank.

2. Getting people to realize that the Maroon Zealots and Gold Zealots are two separate ranks.

Which to start first?--Xzan Tamasee 20:56, 4 April 2012 (EDT)


 * The latter's been agreed on for a while now. The former, however, is much more iffy. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 21:17, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

(Yes this is a separate comment and not intended to be a reply to the above, and yes, this comment has been repeated from the above section since that comment in that section has been gone unnoticed) I think this article needs to separate titles and groups from the rank structure section, since it has caused some confusion to a number of readers. For example, Light of Sanghelios or Honor Guard Ultra is a unit within the Honor Guardsmen. Both of these are groups and not necessarily a rank. Similarly, Arbiter and Councilor are titles and not ranks.— subtank  13:56, 25 March 2012 (EDT)


 * On the topic of Zealots, I'm under the impression that there are two different variations, Gold and Maroon. Maroon work in squads. Gold work alone. This can be accepted by novella and game appearances of these two types. These ARE boh Zealots though. So there is a Gold sub-class as there is a Maroon one.


 * As for the table re-structuring. I do not believe it is as misleading as suggested. Not the structure itself at least. I think the lack of overall detail in information due to it's incompletion is what is letting it down. That and using the section title "Rank Structure" because as the terms black and white were used before, Sangheili culture is not this simple. Not all of these "ranks" are ranks. A number of different positions, titles and prestiges exist and intermingle with each other in different ways. Some are within the military, some are with different ministaries and some are civilian titles with innate combat abilities. I have tried to order them based primarily on authority, and secondarily on senseful groups, as following:


 * -Political positions
 * -Councilor
 * -Arbiter
 * -Ascetic


 * -Honour Guard
 * -Light of Sangheilios
 * -Honour Guardsman


 * -Zealot-class
 * -Field Marshal
 * -Zealot (Gold and Maroon discussed)


 * -Conventional military ranks
 * -Imperial Admiral
 * -General
 * -Ultra
 * -Major (Officer as well)
 * -Minor


 * -Military titles
 * -Supreme Commander
 * -Fleet Master
 * -Ship Master
 * -Field Master
 * -Weapons Master


 * -Special Warfare
 * -Commando Unit


 * -Special Operations
 * -Commander
 * -Officer
 * -Infantry


 * -Fleet Security
 * -Fleet Security Commando/Officer
 * -Stealth
 * -Ossoona
 * -Ranger


 * -Civilian titles
 * -Oracle Master
 * -Elder
 * -Kaidon
 * -Aristocrat
 * -Prison Guard


 * -'Refumee Heretics
 * -Major
 * -Minor

Eventually my intent was to cite and include every title/position within the table structure, leaving none as a sub-section. I have tried to work with the users of this wiki to create this to the best of my ability. If you do not think I am doing things right, please speak up with suggestions for how things should be done differently. Or even better help out by editing and help me make this right! Originally I thought I wouldn't be able to start this re-structure until June/July, but I've managed to put some time in this month and a little before in March. Unfortunately I'm going to be short on time now until June/July like I said. So although I did want to improve the Zealots section next, etc. etc. you will be experiencing radio silence from me till then. All the best. - TheLostJedi  01:35, 11 April 2012 (EDT)


 * I'll just see how things go and give constructive criticisms along the way. Here's one:
 * The biggest benefit of replacing the entire table structure with the Sangheili rank template is simply this: we do not need to wrap our minds around figuring out which goes where and under what. Looking from the history of figuring it out, it hasn't done much good; as we explore the structure, we hit more holes and end up with more speculations. Instead, I suggest we follow the layout used in Warthog article and The Flood article; we replace the rank structure table with the rank template, include an introductory paragraph detailing the groups, divisions and ministries governing the groups, ranks and titles, and leave the rank articles themselves to do the explaining/describing part. This format is far more user-friendly, provides a clearer picture and reduces instances of worthy speculations than the our -- sorry to say -- fruitless attempts in constructing a rank structure table.
 * Constructive, no? :P— subtank  07:48, 11 April 2012 (EDT)


 * Though I respect the reasoning for that notion, I think out-right removing the table would be a step backwards. And become inconsistent as we feature rank tables for nearly all other species. The information which I've sourced and written about each individual position has extremely little to no speculation. The only speculation which can be inferred is by the over-arcing order of grouping by which I've listed these titles and ranks. Whilst that ordering is based on general authority, it's by no means definitive or absolute, and consequently we need to stop reading it as such. A Minor for instance is not higher in rank than a Spec Ops Commander, despite being listed above the latter rank, it simply made more sense to me to list the core military ranks first. That's just my opinion on the matter. I shall continue my editing as proposed in July, unless you collectively decide to remove the table or continue the re-formating/re-sourcing/re-structuring without me. ;) - TheLostJedi  04:10, 13 May 2012 (EDT)

Life span
Is there any indication regarding how long they live? Jac0bBau3r1995 04:40, 20 March 2012 (EDT)


 * Nope. We do know Thel 'Vadam is 66 or 67 by the end of Halo 3, and still seems to be in pretty great shape, but that's not too much of a clue to how long they live. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 15:45, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Spec Ops Commando
Alrighty, since this is the easiest of the remaining two issues with the Sangheili Ranks, I feel this should be addressed. Everyone, please take a look at Huki 'Umamee, and flip your copy of Halo: The Flood to page 296. Spec Ops Commando needs to be recognized as a rank. No where was it mentioned it was another name for Spec Ops Officer. Just because it doesn't appear in game doesn't mean it does not exist. I mean, assuming it to be another name for Officer is silly. Zuka, (An officer) did take his identity, but that may be because it was simple. Considering there is no armor change from regular Spec Ops to Spec Ops Officer, why would it change for Spec Ops Commando?--Xzan Tamasee 22:34, 4 April 2012 (EDT)
 * I don't have the sources to verify Spec Ops ranks right now, so you're going to have to be explicit with references here or edit the article(s) yourself. Sorry man. What was the other issue? - TheLostJedi  00:58, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
 * After catching up on the comments above, I think you're talking about Uzse 'Taham's ambiguous rank? I'll let you guys resolve these issues in my absense hehe. But I shall return. xP - TheLostJedi  01:46, 11 April 2012 (EDT)

Alrighty. Whenever I get some free time, possibly this weekend, I'll create the page. The other issue I was talking about was the Gold and Maroon Zealots being distinguished. They both are jumbled up in one page right now when it's clear they are both separate types.--Xzan Tamasee 14:17, 17 April 2012 (EDT)


 * Then create two sections in the article. — subtank  14:53, 17 April 2012 (EDT)

Mary Sue-like description of racial traits?
This article seems to repeatedly state how good Sangheili are at types of things, despite much of canon contradicting the notion. According to the article, Elites are very tall, muscular, intelligent, have a good sense of smell, good eyesight, can run very fast and jump much farther than other species, and they have a robust physiology. Their society is highly militaristic, feudalistic, fanatical, narrow-minded, and highly theological...yet somehow they're good in the science, technology, infrastructure, culture, and governing departments? Those are contradictory traits. They were like that even before the Writ of Union, and they're still like that in the 2500's, though to a lesser extent...because other races take care of a lot of that stuff for them.

It gets worse. For instance, Sangheili are not great tacticians--great Sangheili tacticians are rare, if canon is anything to go by. They are routinely defeated by vastly inferior (technologically and numerically) forces because of superior human tactical abilities, rationality, intelligence, and strategy. Go ahead, look at any truly canonical battle, and the UNSC are either defeated because they are hopelessly outmatched by vastly superior tech and/or numbers, or the UNSC wins by outsmarting, outstrategizing, and outfighting their opponents (rationality and bravery included). Battle of Onyx? UNSC wins through, essentially, better human strategy, intelligence, rationality, and open-mindedness--until another Covenant fleet arrives out of nowhere. Battle of Reach? UNSC inflicts absurdly heavy losses on the Covenant. If you include the NOVA bomb ploy Admiral Whitcomb used, the Covenant lost somewhere around 500 ships (IIRC) and millions of soldiers.

In the Battle of the Ark, we get to directly see a scenario in which the great intelligence and strategical skill the Sangheili supposedly posses put to use to overcome 3-to-1 odds against Truth's fleet. Their Admiral's strategy turns out to be, literally, "all ships do whatever, shoot and kill them!" I've seen better strategy from an average high school student. Then let's look at the typical Elite strategy in a naval situation--ignore your tactical advantages and go for glorious close-combat and boarding action. Again, what kind of intelligent, skilled tacticians act anything like this?

The Battle of Installation 04 is yet another example. A single UNSC cruiser against over a dozen Covenant battlecruisers, and the Autumn doesn't even have its full complement of Longswords or Archer missiles. The Covenant fleet gets to Halo first and has significant time to prepare a trap. They detect the Autumn when it exits slipspace. The Autumn is actually heading towards the Covenant fleet lying in wait. The end result is not a one-sided slaughter as you would expect, but the Autumn actually kills four battlecruisers, damages (and in one case, disables) several others, kills many boarding parties, evacuates most of the crew onto Halo (somehow...despite the massive numbers of combat-capable craft and point defense lasers available), and finally manages to crash-land onto the surface of Halo rather intact. The prophet's order to not fire with plasma torpedoes in order to prevent inadvertent collateral damage to Halo was only initially followed, but even then, the Covenant fleet had such overwhelming tactical superiority available that it isn't even the slightest excuse. Later, they'd get their butts repeatedly handed to them on Halo's surface--again, despite overwhelming tactical, technological, and numerical superiority--in many cases this was directly because of glaring tactical and strategic blunders.

In short, this article is self-contradictory when it describes the strengths of the Elites, stating they have major strengths when much of the critical evidence directly contradicts those notions and even explicitly describes other traits of their society and race that are totally contradictory to those strengths. EDIT: SaltyWaffles 16:40, 30 October 2012 (EDT)SaltyWaffles (the author of the above post)


 * Reason why the article is self-contradictory? It's written and then re-written by at least a hundred editors over the course of seven years. When a contributor inserts a piece of information, they usually don't check for another piece of information that contradicts their statements. Mary Sue-like description? I guess we need to point out how some Elites would put their lives at risk by rather fight with bare hands than using human weapons. Instead of pointing the bad things out, why don't you help out? Long articles like this will take a long time to clean up. — S331 Bubbleshieldhud.svg(COM • Mission Log • Profile) 10:25, 30 June 2012 (EDT)


 * As put nicely by Spartan331. By all means, help us to help you to help others! :) — subtank   12:44, 1 July 2012 (EDT)

71.202.80.47 is absolutely spot on though, there is way too many mixed messages and contradictions about the Elites intelligence and tactical ability. In the "intelligence" section the only thing it says to justify the idea of elites being intelligent is "When presented with an obstacle, such as a Warthog driving at them, they will move out of the way, and if a vehicle stops, they will attempt to board it or disable it." Yeah real Einstein, more like common sense. Your also right "71.202.80.47" when it talks about how the elites apparently defeat the Brutes through tactical skill but doesn't really say why and there is no real evidence they used good tactics against the Brutes. So yeah, couldn't agree more. I mean humans dont get called intelligence for doing what the Elites do, so why the double standard.

I used to be a lot less critical of the Elites tactical ability but I then realised it does not take much of a genius to realise that just blindly charging in and trying to go for glory in space it not exactly the cleverest idea.

Also UNSC victories greatly outnumber Covenant victories even though the Elites were in charge of the Covenant Military for the majority of the Human-Covenant War, says a lot doesn't it. No, Elites are not "brilliant tacticians" 71.202.80.47 just hits it on the nail.

--90.219.6.46 06:19, 15 September 2012 (EDT)


 * 90.219.6.46, I have to completely disagree with you there. Although that about moving out of the warthog is true, but, as Spartan331 says, this article has been written and re-written 100s of times over the years, and this section probably started out as talking about the AI. The Elites did defeat the Brutes through tactical skill. For example, the Battle of Installation 00, Truth's fleet was 3 times as large as the Fleet of Retribution. Yet the Fleet of Retribution defeated Truth's fleet. "UNSC victories greatly outnumber Covenant victories", no. The Covenant systematically slaughtered UNSC defence forces, using either superior tactics or downright overwhelming them. Your statement should be the other way around. Anyway, you are judging the Elites as if they were all one person, i.e. you can't say all humans are brilliant tacticians, just some. The same can probably be said for the elites. --Tent acle Torn ado  08:01, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

Read the books Tentacletornado and you'll realised that from cover to cover the Humans systematically outfight the Elites and other covenant from one end of the book to the other. The fact that the UNSC can defeat the Covenant using inferior technology and numbers says a lot about their strategic skill in comparison to the Covenant. Elites can board or disable vehicles YAY proper einstein level that, genius why didnt I think of that? No, its common sense, the Elites are not as smart as you think they are, this covenant separatist bias is alarming. There is no evidence of Covenant's tactics being superior. --90.219.6.46 09:29, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

PROVE to us, the majority that the Covenant tactics are superior, show us EXAMPLES of Covenant tactics actually "succeeding" against the humans. Just because they slaughtered the humans doesn't mean they used good tactics, they have superior technology, firepower and numbers, they didn't even invent their technology its imitative rather than innovative. The Elites are the ones who gladly bring swords to gunfights, because they are that irrational, they are that DELUSIONAL. --90.219.6.46 09:35, 15 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Why should we stop with the Sangheili when we have more examples of humans being worse than the rest (speaking from a historical pov, that is)? — subtank   10:38, 15 September 2012 (EDT)


 * I'll tell you now, 90.219.6.46, I am well aware of the books, and I can say I have read them all. The fact that the Humans almost lost all their controlled worlds, almost 800 of them, within 30 years completely disproves your point. You seem to have forgotten that the Sangheili have been whittled down to be purely militaristic in nature by the San'shyuum. Think about what that would do to a culture. They were the best fighting force in the known galaxy up until the Human-covenant war. Again think about this, if your race was the best at something for around 3000 years, would you not beleive you could not be defeated? Come on now, you seem to be somewhat biased in this area. So please stop this now. --Tent acle Torn ado  14:28, 15 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Okay, rather than pointing out the many flaws in your argument's logic in a long list, I'll just go over the essential points. Humanity didn't lose all of their worlds--a good number of the Inner Colonies were outright never even contested, as the Covenant went straight after Reach, then Earth, within the span of less than a year. Losing a war does not mean you are less competent at warfare, or even that your military is inferior. Here's an example: The Winter War. Finland against Soviet Russia, one on one. Despite having inferior technology, vastly inferior numbers, and no ability to go on the offensive, Finland avoided total defeat and inflicted a casualty ratio of more than 4-to-1. Why? Because of vastly superior tactics, strategy, use of available tech/resources, and ingenuity. In the Halo 'verse, humanity uses superior tactics and strategy than the Covenant every. single. time. Why do they ever lose? The Covenant have vastly superior technology, numbers, and insurmountable strategic initiative. The Fall of Reach? A vastly outnumbered and outgunned UNSC force inflicted vastly disproportionate casualties through the use of far superior tactics, strategy, intelligence, organization, and ingenuity. Name a battle, and the Covenant either lose against all odds or win with far heavier losses (or with far less efficiency) than any half-competent tactician/commander/force should. And it's not rocket science as to why--religious fanatics raised in a society built upon corruption, superstitious feelings, caste-based governing and rule, advancement-by-faith-or-feats, and an honor-bound warrior-culture that pits soldiers in duels to the death as part of training and selection are extremely unlikely to make good tacticians or leaders. When a harsh code of honor completely overrides rationalism, pragmatism, or survival (and even victory), you are not a good tactician; at best, you're good in spite of all those things. Okay, next; the Elites were the best fighting force in the galaxy because they hadn't been defeated? Not only is that not true (they lost to the Prophets, in large part because they--irrationally--refused to even study the highly advanced Forerunner relics for religious/dogmatic reasons, something that the Prophets themselves had no problem doing), but their toughest competition after that defeat was the Jackals--and in this case, it took a while for the Elites to wear down disorganized groups of pirates whose ships weren't even capable of FTL (and even then, the war ended when the Prophets struck a deal to basically give the Jackals a small degree of autonomy and monetary dispensation for their services). The Hunters? The Elites got their asses kicked on the ground, and resorted to threatening orbital bombardment to get victory--against a race that had no combat spacecraft at all, or colonies. Grunts? Similar story. The Brutes were fairly willing to join without being at the end of a gun. As for the super advanced technology they do possess, it's pretty much a given that the vast majority of it comes from the Prophets and/(perhaps OR)Engineers, who are basically 'do everything for you, including self-replicate and self-educate' supercomputer engineers that already know a good deal about Forerunner tech. And after the end of the H-C War, the Elites can't even build new ships because they don't know how (says a lot, there). Until the Prophets completely drop off the map, the Brutes are actually winning against the Elites because the Prophets help them keep building ships. As for treating the Elites, an entire race, as a single person for stereotyping purposes--I'm not doing that; the article in its current form does, describing all Elites as intelligent, very strong, cunning warriors with intense bravery (and so forth). The problem is, you can't find more than a handful of Elites that match that description, but you can very easily find countless examples of ones that contradict it. The only cases of Elites winning battles/engagements through superior tactics/intelligence are against Brutes--who are repeatedly demonstrated to be quite stupid in most areas (though to be fair, I'm sure a good deal of that is due to deficiencies in their culture, society, governing systems, etc, not so much to biology) and have only been using Covenant-level tech for a few decades, compared to the centuries/millennia for Elites. Oh, and remember Thel's first mission as the Arbiter? That clever/suicidally brave idea he came up with for dealing with the Heretic faction and its leader? The fact that it wasn't the first idea they had is alarmingly stupid/irrationally dense of them. In most cases, the tactical skill level that Elites show is an adept understanding of animalistic, hunting-style methodology against small groups of prey. In naval battles, they literally prefer to charge head-on into close combat regardless of the nuances or details of the situation. It says a great deal when the highest-ranked Elite soldiers fight like shock-troops, individually, on the front lines wielding swords in a battlefield of guns, explosives, vehicles, and many kinds of fire and air support--not commanding or leading, but personally rushing into the fray with a knife in a gunfight. SaltyWaffles 17:21, 30 October 2012 (EDT)SaltyWaffles