Talk:Swords of Sanghelios

I don't think the pages should be merged, since the Heretic and Separatist pages discuss sufficiently different factions. The Heretics' motivation is religious, a crisis of faith if you will. The Separatists' motives are more political; the Elites' demotion in favor of the Brute caste, along with the assassination of Elite councillors by the Brutes help spark the fighting. The two factions are also active in different periods of Halo 2: the Heretics are defeated before the Covenant Civil War really begins. Lo-Volt, August 8, 2006, 0201 hours EDT.
 * I agree. --Dragonclaws 05:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. The Heretic movement ended with the Heretic leader's death. The Seperatists are a result of a direct civil war within the Covenant political structure, hence why Brutes, Drones, Jackals, and Prophets are now against Elites, Grunts, and Hunters. A merger would be a mistake. Also, much of the Seperatists is speculation since by the end of the game, the movement is just starting. --CrzyAznSprtn 13:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Covenant Separatists not the same as Heretics
I have been reading the Heretic, Covenant Separatist articles along with the one about that famous Imperial Admiral and it seems that the Elites are against Humans yet some points say that they are allies. So perhaps it should be noted that while some of the Elites have sided with the Arbiter, others have decided to go against both sides? User:Darth Batrus

Well, the Heretics should be mentioned. The Arbiter at first was warned about how The Prophets were leading them to their doom, and the Elites at the time were unaware of really what was going on. They were warned of this. That warning should be mentioned since it contributes to the history of the Separatist movement. Also, the Oracle's perspective and the Prophet's perspective is important to mention because the Elites were stuck between a rock and a hard place: treason vs. damnation. This should all be mentioned to the point that its background information on the Elites leaving the Covenant. --J miester25 04:10, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Are the grunts actually part of this
Just a question, but on the to Et tu brute video, the grunts were seen fighting with brutes. care to comment? :68.234.4.254 21:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they are 68.234.4.254, play halo 2 or look for the Seperatist Grunt glitch and you'll find a friendly Grunt or two. --User:Elite Emperor

Yeah I have a theroy on this I think the grunts would prefer to be under the command of the elites who they are more familiar with and dont seem to beat them however the grunts who were on brute controlled ships and other variours brute held bases are forsed to work for them and follow there orders. User:Kami-Sama Perhaps both Hunters(Mgalekolo) and Grunts(Unngoy) are forced to be with the covenant loyalists under the treath that they would glass their home planets?

SPARTAN 456

extend page
can some one expand this page with pictures of variours elites hunters and grunts from halo two levels Gravemind, Uprising, The Great Journey and High Charity


 * I can't take screenshots, but I'll see about at least getting some pictures to show what the articles about. g u e s t y -p e r s o n y -t h i <font color="#00ff00">n <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">y  17:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Kk it'll be much apreshiated User:Kami-Sama

When are these pics going to be added User:Kami-Sama

Covenant Species Names
would it be less confusing if I changed the names of the Covenant species from the Covenant translation (Sangheili, Unggoy, etc) to the human translation (Elites, Grunts, etc)? Not everyone knows the Covenant translation, so it my be confusing for casual readers. simon RJH 17:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could add the common name in parenthesis next to the proper name.

At the behest of gravemind
If Masterchief is meant to stop truth and his guards at the behest of gravemind, why isn't the flood on Masterchiefs side? gravemind is said to be the flood leader...

Cortana says in a cutscene that Gravemind was distracting them or something, but otherwise, he just didn't want to starve, because the Covenant were going to activate Halo. Also, even after you meet gravemind, you still have to fight the flood. --<font color="Goldenrod">Reborn Knuxchao <font color="DarkGoldenrod">T <font color="SaddleBrown">C <font color="Black">R  12:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of sending the Master Chief to High Charity was to kill him. Think about it, Gravemind didn't need the Chief to get the Index. The Control Room was surrounded by pissed off Elites, there was no real danger that Halo would go off. There were two reasons the Gravemind wanted the Chief on High Charity: -To get Cortana, a valuable source of knowledge on both humans and covenant -To kill the Chief, the only real Reclaimer at the moment. If Chief killed Truth, well, so be it. If not, the Flood would. -The Dark Lord Azathoth 13:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Questioning Member races of Separatist
Well, the article clearly states that Grunts and Hunters are with the separatists, but in Halo 3 I see them fighting alongside the Brutes, what's up with that? Shouldn't actions be taken to ensure this article is au jour? Troubleshooter 20:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It was originally shown that Grunts and Hunters were allies of the Elites, but in Halo 3 Bungie said the were on both sides. The Grunts were too afraid to openly support one side, and the Hunters' political motivation is completely unknown. Also, did you get to complete Halo 2? (Cyborg Robot 00:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

Arbitorials?
I rember hearing this quote in the Sirea 117: ""The Grunt's new-found courage is but fear. When we,Arbitorials(sp?), are victorious, all who serve the Prophets will be punished.""

- The Aribter

So is their official name the Arbitorials and should it be mentioned the article?--Darth Scott 03:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

He never says "Arbitorials." He just says "When we are victorious." If he were to say "Arbitorials", it would be noticable. Kap2310 20:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure your hearing this dude.... --Ajax 013 20:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok I was pretty sure he said something like "Arbitorials" I'm probably wrong--Darth Scott 00:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

name
I was just wondering if the name "Covenant Separatists" is canon(stated in-game or in the novels) or made up by fans and the halopedia community.--<font color="Green">EliteSpartan  <font color="Black">My Talk <font color="Black">My Contribs  02:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Vehicles
I thought the only vehicles the separatists used where the ghost, and on the rare occasion the banshee. Im very sure they didnt use the Spectre or the Shadow since those arent seen in Halo 3, which is the only game the Separatists are in. I am also sure they didnt use the Spirit since that was only in Halo 1.

every vehicle in halo cannon mentioned or created exist (of course except for cut and deleted material), each fleet under separatist or loyalist has each vehicle and vessel, but since the promotion of brutes they put their vehicles in instead of elite vehicles like the chopper(brute) vs. ghost(elite) or prowler(brute) vs. spectre(elite), because the elites would never use brute weapons,vehicles, vessels, they did use all the vehicles and vessels from each game, just in halo 3 bungie wanted to show fans the brutes promotion after the civil war in Halo 2 by replacing the spectre with prowler and shadow with elephant for humans, and giving them more ranks, armor, and weapons, it would be great if bungie would create more brute variants to distinguish between the separatist and loyalist, like the banshee that is used by both loyalist and separatist--Lordexodus003 11:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

no vehicles?
why don't the the Elites use their own vehicles? like thir own wraiths or ghosts or banshees or even their own Scarabs? Voy101


 * I would think its because they dont need them in the situations they're in or they may not even have any vehicles because the ones the used in Halo 2 might have been stolen from the Covenant Loyalists. <font color="MidnightBlue">EwCDnaudee 19:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

they do, every fleet either it be brute or elite comes with hundreds or thousands of vehicles and vessels either ghost, wraiths, banshees, etc. since your playing halo through the view of chief, humans, and UNSC were not around areas where the separatist used their own vehicles and vessels against the loyalist, if bungie made a halo game from the separatist view would be awesome and we would see this in effect--Lordexodus003 11:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * well what about times like on the covenat level,their vehicles could of helped then

the separatist do have their own vehicles, in halo 3 levels such as "ark" and "covenant" they were probably sent else where on the ark to fight loyalist forces where the chief wasn't at, as for the level "covenant" the UNSC dropped off their vehicles for chief and the elites that helped him clear the tower just used those instead--Lordexodus003 11:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Hunters
Maybe the separatist hunters have green armour instead of blue..similar to how their phantoms were green. I dunno what separatist grunts would look like though...-- Joshua 029 03:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

i think so as well. but with the grunts its difficult because they have different colours for different ranks (unlike the hunters oddly) possibly with the curved armour instead of the triangle armour (you know from halo 1&2) and somthing significant the note them like the marathon symbol on one side of their back. but also i reckon they didn't include both races in halo 3 as allies because the graphics engine wasn't good enough for the battle with the amount of 'Friendly AI' to make it look good. so they were probably cropped out of the game out of laziness.

i kind of agree with the unknown editor above about not making the separatist allies grunts and hunters on the game help chief, i don't think it would be to hard for people to distinguish between a grunt with a red marker (enemy) and a grunt with a green marker (ally), and i just don't see as to why the hunters would be on the loyalist side in the first place, then i read they original were going to put the deleted race the Drinol on the loyalist side to replace the Hunters that left the covenant for the separatist side, but they threw it out because they thought it would confuse players, i don't see how this would confuse players since you should play halo 2 before halo 3 and see that on the levels Gravemind through the Great Journey that every single hunter through those levels sided with the separatist--Lordexodus003 11:32, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Separtists Fleet Destroyed?
If I recall the Arbiter had said that "We had a fleet of Hundreds!" "Alas Brother, the Flood... It has evolved!" - Is that implying that the Flood evolved and managed to barely break through Quarantine? Or that the Flood evolved and utterly decimated the Sangehellian Fleet over High Charity? It could explain how High Charity itself was able to escape. --66.37.173.238 04:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC) or he's wondering how a single ship got through the elites hundreds. the major elite replies "alas brother, the flood, it has evolved!" it means they got smarter and avoided the elite fleet.

Stop Adding
"*Currently the most powerful faction in the halo universe.
 * Saved the human race from destruction towards the end of the human-covenant war"

Please, stop adding these back into the article. For one thing, the first point cannot be confirmed. The Separatists may have been just as decimated by the Covenant and the Flood as the UNSC was, and regardless, the Forerunners make everyone else pale in comparison. And the second point is already stated in the article, and therefore does not need to be stated again in the trivia section. -- Councillor   Specops 306  -  Qur'a  'Morhek  05:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

this is the truth. the humans are basicly beaten into submission, the loyalists have been destroyed and the flood isnt a threat anymore. the forerunners dont count anymore because they are gone. the seperatists have superior numbers and lots of colonys. i seriously doubt they were as badly decimated as the humans were. the humans were fought for like 20 years and beaten into a low population on one planet. the elite seperatists have been spacefaring much longer than the humans and obviously have alot more worlds under control. No problem about the elites saving humans bit though. -antihero


 * My point about the second "fact" was merely that it was already stated. For the first, I doubt the Sangheili escaped without some wounds - the Schism was a pretty turbulent time, and I doubt they'd have allied with humanity at all unless they were desperate. --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  03:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

hasn't the covenant dissolved? surely now its every races looking after their selves. the sepritist didn't really have lots of colonies because it was each races colonies to protect. also humans wernt low populated on earth. they had multiple colonies and the only population figure for earth of halo ive seen is that of earth in the last year of the war. just saying ya know that now factions should be individual races DeadReanimation 11:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Humanity as a species is now 200 million. That's a confirmed fact and anyone trying to argue otherwise is purposely choosing to ignore some very solid canon. As for the Covenant/Separatists - the Covenant still exists, but its military and leadership have been devastated by one calamity after another. The Assembly map description confirms that it still exists in one form or another, and is gearing up to pay the Sangheili back. As for whether the Separatists split, I would think they'd prefer to unite together against the Covenant. --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  03:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you think that the loyalist are gonna launch a counter attack against the sepratist cause like after the ark was destroyed the sepratist proberly absorbed some loalist troops but theres still 6 halos left (btw was delta halo destroyed after halo 2?)


 * Delta Halo is still intact, and currently quarantined by what's left of the Sangheili fleet. I'm not sure what you mean about Separatists "absorbing" Loyalist forces - did you mean on the level of Grunts, Jackals and Hunters, etc? And what's left of the Covenant is still a formidable force, gearing up to make a comeback - exactly when they do so is unknown. It might be 2553, it might be decades later. We also don't know how we'll see it, whether it'll be novels or games, etc. --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  21:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In no canon anywhere is it explicitly stated that the Sangheili have other colonies as population centres. In fact it is actually stated that they have no other population centres other than Sangheilios in the Encyclopaedia. So in regards to being the most powerful faction in Halo, from a territorial perspective, they are not. Their fleet numbers have dwindled to the point where they were forced to abandon their campaign against the Jiralhanae to defend themselves. Unable to produce new weaponry and ships, unable to repair them, and lacking the knowledge to do so (Implying no Tier 2 or even Tier 3 understanding within their society of physics, engineering, mathematics, computing etc) they are not most powerful, not anymore from a military perspective and certainly not from a scientific perspective. Everyone post Halo 3 is in a state, no one has any power. Also, with respect to Humanity. 200 million cannot be all there is left. The Bestiarum describes Earth with a population of 200 million, and we know for a fact that at least one colony has survived, Minister. The Encyclopaedia also makes references to secession beginning in the remaining colonies. Unless these colonies are empty, and the UNSC is at odds with empty buildings, I cannot see how 200 million applies to all of Humanity. I do not disagree with Sangheili saving Humanity though, just the part about them having the most power. --Anton1792 16:36, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Separatist Jiralhanae
In my opinion since some separatists brutes had been killed but for their own kind as they were considered traitors to the Covenant. Once I put it but someone deleted it. Not as you think.H A L O Legend


 * Unless you were reading fanfiction, there have been no Separatist Brutes. --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  22:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It's possible, but not confirmed, and unlikely.--Unreal Admin 00:53, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Hi! I've have a few things to ask:

I know in the wiki that it says the separtist phantom was green to lock in the pact between humans and elites, but was that said in the game? Cause if it wasn't, wouldn't it make sense that they made it the same colour or similiar to the pelicans so that a human gunner knew easily if it was friend or foe.

If the Covenant leadership was dead, wouldn't the separtists not exist, as in the title? Wouldn't they be call the "Holy Covenant Empire" or something like that? And I'm sure that they wouldn't stay with the Green colour. They might have blue instead, like their plasma rifles.

And ya thats all I got. 204.16.103.183 01:49, February 18, 2010 (UTC)TipoFry

The Elites are more of a Separatist movement rather than heritic, but they also believe that the Prophets were deceitful hense a lack of faith and stopped believing altogether. One thing I don't understand though, is why, on the final level on Halo 2 - The Great Journey, Grunts and Hunters are allies of the Elites while in Halo 3, they are enemies. Also, why would the Grunts and Hunters have sided with the Elites over the Covenant?

This is a common question among all of us, but what we know is that bungie didn't want to include separatist grunts and hunters because they felt it would confuse the players so they just labeled them as enemies in halo 3, as to why they joined us is, the hunters are a warrior race like the sangheili and respect each other for it, and the grunts that served under the elites followed their command, hopefully bungie will consider a halo game that allows you to play the separatist and we'll get to see this, but maybe its a pipe dream time will tell--Lordexodus003 17:05, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Sangheili-Human Alliance
From the section itself:

"The Separatist Elites seem to show some signs of change due to their new human allies. They will broadcast in a frequency that can be heard by both Elites and humans as well as letting humans in their drop ships. This shows that they are able to work with humans as equals. In addition, many Elites begin to refer to The Flood as 'the flood' instead of 'the parasite'."

I assume that this is making reference to the instances in Halo 2/3 where Humans and Sangheili communicate to each other, like Rtas 'Vadum speaking to Miranda Keyes etc. If so, then it should not be placed after the post Halo 3 content as, by the sounds of it, it may be misleading people into believing that a universal "Flood Code" has been made between them, unless I missed that part in The Return. Also, when do Humans go into their dropships? The part in bold as well. While it can be proven with the Conversations from the Universe booklet that this may in fact be true, the fact of letting Humans ride in their dropships, if true, is not proper justification for such a claim. After all, Sangheili allowed Unggoy to ride in their dropships, but they are hardly considered equal. --Anton1792 17:13, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Grunts and Hunters
Most of the Grunts and Hunters sided with the Seperatists. Some remained with the Loyalists out of fear, conscription vs execution, or loyalty (in the case of the Ungoy deacons) or whatever reasons come to light. But the fact remains that the three species that rebelled against the Prophets and their 3 Loyalist client races were the Elites, Grunts, and Hunters. Most of them, en masse. Not just "some."


 * Where has there ever been a source stating outright that most of the Hunters and Grunts rebelled? Canonically, looking to Halo 3, we see more Hunters fighting on the side of the Covenant than we ever did fighting for the Elites in Halo 2, and the fact that Grunts are still used en masse by the Brute-led forces, and none appear when the Elites arrive to assist, shows that there were more Grunts on the side of the "loyalists" than that of the Elites. We know that some Grunts and some Hunters sides with the Elites, and that a substantial number remained with the Covenant - to say otherwise is simply stretching facts to suit out own opinions. --  Specops306   Autocrat     Qur'a 'Morhek   19:40, 14 January 2011 (EST)


 * According to Bungie, the only reason you never see Grunts and Hunters on the humans side was because they were afraid to confuse the players, and that allied Grunts and Hunters simply fought elsewhere.

Separatist Jackals?
You would think with how jackals tend to look after themselves that if any of them found out Halo would kill them they would join the Separatists especially considering that they aren't all that faithful with the Covenant religion anyway.


 * well I know that at least one jackal wasnt taking the covenants crap, in halo 2 during the riots on high charity you can see one jackal who seems to be p'od at the covenant leadership . . . he kinda attacks a brute I think. He mightn ot have been a compatant though . . . just a civilian. 71.238.243.98 12:56, 21 November 2012 (EST)

Dissolution?
Since when is it stated that the Covenant separatists ceased to exist as a unified force? And if so, should we create a new faction for the Arbiter's forces?18:31, 16 December 2012 (EST)~
 * The dissolution of the Covenant separatists occured in the Kilo-Five Trilogy, specifically the novel Halo: The Thursday War when the Sangheili fall to civil war. As for after that, if we hold that Thel 'Vadam's faction is no longer the Covenant Separatists, what should we call it? It's obvious from Halo: Escalation that 'Vadam's men still include many of the Covenant races. -- SFH (talk) 13:49, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * As far as we know, they never really were called "Covenant separatists" to begin with - it's just another name made up by Halopedia because they had to be called something. As for what to call Vadam's current faction, I don't really have anything. I don't think there's a desperate need to have a page for them as of the present, though, so it's really a non-issue. We could just keep calling them things like "Thel 'Vadam's allies" or "Thel 'Vadam's faction" or whatever best describes them. It's a shame 343i insists on not naming things, though Jul 'Mdama's Covenant is a bigger offender in this regard. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus  (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 14:12, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * I think "Thel 'Vadam's faction" or "Vadam Loyalists" would be great choices for the faction's name until we get an actual name from 343. I searched around and "Vadam Loyalists" seems to be in use already on pages with the cruisers Devotion,Swordsman, and Axiom from Halo:The Thursday War. This faction seems to have enough information for the creation of its own page, at least in my opinion. Any thoughts?96.246.166.18 13:19, 14 April 2014 (EDT)
 * The above proposal is good, and we can include a section on "splinter factions" in this article to link these splinter factions. As for the article's title, it would appear that Jugus is spot on with the title; it is a fan-given name made in '06. — subtank   15:07, 14 April 2014 (EDT)
 * Splinter factions for the separatists or for the Covenant in general? 96.246.166.18 15:18, 14 April 2014 (EDT)

Renouncing the Forerunners
In the article, it says that Thel 'Vadam's faction no longer worship the Forerunners as gods. However, when I checked Glasslands, where the citation comes from, it comes from Avu Med 'Telcam that Thel 'Vadam renounced the Forerunners, and I find it a little difficult to trust the words of someone that is declared a "maniac" on the very next page. Is there anything where Thel 'Vadam specifically denounces the Forerunners? We have evidence that followers of Thel 'Vadam still believe the Forerunners are gods. Rtas 'Vadum exclaims "By the Gods!" when High Charity appears at the Ark, and the Shipmaster from The Return also still worships the Forerunners. SFH (talk) 13:35, 31 May 2014 (EDT)


 * What exactly would 'Telcam's beef with the Arbiter be if the latter still adhered to the old Sangheili religion? Cooperating with humanity, sure, but 'Telcam himself does that and his crusading is, for the most part, sincerely religious in nature as opposed to a means to an end like it is with Jul. Furthermore, is there any reason to assume they (or at least Thel himself) do regard the Forerunners as gods? Even Refumee's heretics occasionally used phrases like "By the Gods" or "By the Rings" out of habit so I wouldn't put too much weight on Rtas' statement alone. Maniac as he may be, I'd expect 'Telcam's hatred to have some basis in truth. I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that after everything he's witnessed, Thel would come to see the Forerunners as just a race of ancient aliens. However, there doesn't seem to be any kind of extensive anti-religion preaching going on either on the Arbiter's part and it's perfectly plausible that members of his faction are free to believe whatever they wish (after all, Thel wouldn't want to turn away potential allies).


 * Also, since it's been a while since I read The Return, is there an explicit statement that the Shipmaster is allied with the Arbiter? That isn't so clear-cut anymore given 343's establishment of the Sangheili as being much more divided than was previously indicated. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 10:38, 1 June 2014 (EDT)


 * The Shipmaster does say that he had heard stories from the Arbiter about a connection between humans and Forerunners, and he seems to have more beef with the Jiralhanae than any other faction, but I suppose it is ambiguous as to whether the Shipmaster is still with the Arbiter's followers at the time of The Return (on a separate note, I'm beginning to think Halopedia may be costing the Arbiter more allies than his policies, as it seems we keep removing members of this faction every day). Additionally, when Thel talks to the Elders of Mdama, he says that while people say the Sangheili have lost the gods, Thel assures them they haven't lost them. Has anything of the Arbiter's statements in Halo: Escalation shed any light on his stance? -- SFH (talk) 11:08, 1 June 2014 (EDT)


 * I don't think the Arbiter discusses religion at all in the little screen time he has in Escalation. But in light of those quotes from Glasslands, it is perhaps best to remove the article's statement that the faction outright renounces the Forerunners. I'm still inclined to believe the Arbiter himself probably isn't much of a believer anymore (and that his statements to the elders are mostly clever politicking), but to claim that his whole faction rejects the Forerunners' divinity is probably assuming too much. Or maybe there's some other, perhaps very trivial point in his religious stance that the Abiding Truth makes a fuss over.


 * "on a separate note, I'm beginning to think Halopedia may be costing the Arbiter more allies than his policies, as it seems we keep removing members of this faction every day" — I supposed you're referring to the Joyous Exultation alliance page? Myself, I'm wondering why this faction (if it can be called that, given that it existed for like ~2 hours) was ever grouped with the Arbiter in the first place. Ghosts of Onyx barely even mentions him - in 'Wattinree's summit, 'Mantakree is still under the impression the Arbiter is dead. So he clearly wasn't involved there. Though it was more excusable back when we called this page "Covenant separatists" - the nomenclature was more forgiving with the details of who was in charge. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 11:32, 1 June 2014 (EDT)


 * On the point regarding statements such as "By the Gods" or "By the Rings", it should be noted that these are merely statements and do not carry much weight as evidence of someone professing a belief. An atheist/deist may still exclaimed "Jesus Christ" in appropriate circumstances even though he never/no longer practices Christianity.
 * Regarding the Joyous Exultation alliance page, as you correctly questioned, I don't think it was ever stated expressly that they were allied with Thel's separatist group. It should be clarified that the Great Schism unknowingly created a separatist movement consisting of different separatist groups with different objectives.— subtank   14:15, 2 June 2014 (EDT)