Talk:SPARTAN-II program/Archive

Spartan-II people
I made a line on all the Spartan-IIs, I'm not done yet, but its gonna be over 75. You can see it here: the Spartan-II History Line --Uneven elephant 19:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

You should have the SPARTAN's nextto their number, e.g. 34. Samuel-034, 29. Joshua-029. And since there are 3 or so off the list at the bottom you should just take off 3 "Unknown SPARTAN's" SPARTAN-019 17:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The spartans running low on numbers
just wondering but i just noticed how the brutes are going to be fighting in sqaud based combat and the chief 1 on 1 with a brute is a little trying, let alone 6 of them working together this might sound stupid but couldnt it be a possiblity that the spartan IIIs that made it off of onyx could actually be deployed on earth to help the master chief and the chief has not always worked alone bcuz he was the leader of blue sqaud previously, he just only worked with other spartans i might have put this in the wrong spot but i supposed that this is a way to keep the master chief from dieing that is there to state a hypothesis i came up with and nobody has been discussing it so here it is for people to take a look at(Boommer3 23:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC))

I agree the chief dose sometimes work with other teams and seeing that there are so few spartan 2's then the spartan 3's could come and help the chief on the ground i also started a similar conversation on the spartan 3 talk page User:Kami-Sama ps would you say that my idea below is accurate

spartans 2.1
if a spartan 2 had a kid would they be refferd to as spartan 2.1's like the spartan 1.1's User:Kami-Sama


 * Possibly. The kid might need augmentations of their own, though. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 21:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I read FoR... it said they had surpressed (or repressed) sexuality... can't remember, either way... I think it means it'll be VERRRRRRRY hard. Though a later class of SIIs might have been able to as the engineering and development of the augments woud change due to technological reasons.Forerunner 14:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * VERY hard, but one SPARTAN did it. She retired and started a family. I can't believe that allowed her to do that though. I can't believe a Spartan would WANT that, seeing as how they've been trained from young to be soldiers. Spartans are an invaluable resourse, how could they let Maria (i think that's her name) go like that?

Spartans?
In this article it talks of:

Spartan Is (First Spartans) The first 150.

Spartan IIs (Second Spartans) The 75 that "made the grade"

Spartan IIIs (Third Spartans) The 1500 or so after the first class of spartans.

This is confusing, because Spartan Is also refers to the ORION Project, and Spartan IIIs refers to the Spartan 3s that have been going on suicide runs for the past couple of books. Is there a way to clear that up?

--Non-user: Haradar

Aren't there the classes?


 * Class I: First 75/150 selected candidates
 * Class II: Some more SPARTAN-IIs

- TheLostJedi  17:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed by Bungie?
Not a user here, but I found this in the article.

"It has been confirmed that in Halo 3 there will be multiple Spartan-IIs seen throughout the campaign."

AFAIK, Bungie has said nothing about this, and there is no source.

--Non-user: Kr1

Actually, it was a rumour spread in Official Xbox Magazine that Bungie content Chap, Frank O' Conner has decalred as lies. If you see any mention of it, delete. --Ajax 013 20:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright, fixed. --Kr1

Last one
Even in the Halo 3 instruction manual, it says that the Master Chief is the only Spartan-II left. Shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere, since the games are considered 'more canon' than the books.

There is no such thing as "more canon." Bungie accepts the novels as canon, and Spartans still exist in those works (albeit no longer in the fight), so John is the last ACTIVE member. Honour Light Your Way -   Kora ‘Morhek   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  22:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The game just wants to make you feel more like the Master Chief is saving the day. Master Chief Petty Officer Spartan Contribution 13:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well... chief never saw the Spartans after FS. Maybe he thaught they'd have died on Earth.?Forerunner 12:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. It might be possible that he met with the other Spartans before receiving his new Armour at Cairo Station. Consider this too: how could Kelly and the others mentioned Him at the end of Ghost of Onyx if they never met him? Overseer of Halopedia 12:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Public?
Does anyone know when the Spartan II program went public? --89.136.152.158 15:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

When The Spartan-II Program went public
Yes, I do know when the Spartan-II Program went public, 2547. I've added a section in this article about it, as well as created a page on 2547 after reading about when it went public in Halo: Ghost of Onyx.

SpartanMartin 23:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There is some discrepancy on this
In Halo: The Fall of Reach, Catherine Halsey agrees to make the SPARTAN-II program public on the condition that the origins of the SPARTAN-II's are kept top secret. However, Major Silva seems to know all about the origins of the SPARTAN-II's in Halo: The Flood, during his confrontation with the Chief. In addition, members of the Rubble taunted the Gray team about their origins way back in the mid-2530's in The Cole Protocol. --Ant80 20:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

number inacuracy
ok... 33 survive augmentation...

reach.

33. 3 go to space station... 27 go to Reach.
 * source? so it's easier to know WHEN you are talking about. The roster changes pretty often with people dying and coming back (Kurt, Linda). 33 - 3 go to space station; 27 go to Reach. The remaining 3 are Gray Team.

But... how can there be 33 there anyway? what about Sam Kurt and Grey Team?

Sam died MANY years earlier...Kurt dissapeared BEFORE events and Grey team was too far away.Forerunner 18:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I noted this on Halo Fanon a while back. Its actually bigger than that because of Randall, Shiela, Kurt, Maria, Sam and Grey Team. To that end, about 22 actually go to Reach. Ajax 013 16:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps they were in the second or third class?Forerunner 14:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

uhhh
umm what happened to this page's picture?

Scroll Box
Is the scroll box really necessary? Bioniclepluslotr 14:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

By the Battle of Reach
I am quite aware that such posts have been made before, but here it goes. By the time the Battle of Reach occurred, of the 33 that survived the augmentations, three Spartans were considered dead: Sam and Shiela were dead; Kurt was MIA but presumed dead. Randall was truly MIA. Maria was evidently too wounded to continue active duty, though this wounded Spartan might have been Cassandra. The "Harvest Spartan" was propably either simply wounded and later recovered (maybe he's the captive Adam guy from Halo Wars) or is non-canon. Blue Team was at Station Gamma, Gray Team was at the Rubble, and now we know Black Team was at an isolated moon just before Reach fell. Assuming the Halo Wars Spartans survive, and Black Team returns to Reach, there could have been no more than 22 planet-side Spartans at Reach. --&quot;A government strong enough to give you everything you want...is strong enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson 01:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

In First Strike, Grace is designated Red Twenty-Three. That makes me wonder about Maria and Randall; one is apparently at Earth and the other has been MIA since 2532. How could there have been twenty-three Spartans on the ground if (out of thirty-three) two were dead, two were missing, one was at Earth, three were in space, and three were at the Rubble? Again, assuming no more Spartans die or go MIA in future works, only twenty-two could have been on Reach when it fell. Maybe Maria was at Reach but made it to Earth, but...that's pretty unbelieveable. --&quot;A government strong enough to give you everything you want...is strong enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson 22:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Rollback
Someone needs to rollback Sniper994 he/she is adding fanon too the wikia.--Jack Black 06:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Possible explanation for the Spartan Number discrepancy
This just occurred to me yesterday night. Just a theory at this stage. What if the 30 SPARTAN-II's killed during the augmentation process were not killed, but were siphoned off by ONI for other purposes, but listed them killed? Maybe a percentage were actually killed, but ONI decided to make the numbers greater so that some might be completely black? Of course, that would involve Dr. Halsey to have colluded with ONI, or to have been in the dark about it. Again, this is just a theory. --Ant80 19:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Spartans weak?
First off i think Ant80 has hit it on the head. It is the most plausible and least mind blowing explanation as to why there is a numerical discrepancy.

I think the bit in the Trivia section is strange when it talks about Spartans being unable to defeat Brutes and elites in combat,even with their armour and such. Fair enough in raw physical strength they are weaker but the Spartans have defeated Elites numerous times up close; if i remember correctly Kelly killed three in one swipe. Although it was hard MC did manage to beat the Brute and it was a temple guard we don't know how far it was augmented, not to mention Will[?] beating a Hunter in close combat, a sight which shocked even the Covies.

So i think Spartans weaker in terms of 'bench pressing' but not weaker in actual combat for the simple fact they murder swathes of them even the Spartan III's without the advanced armour have.

217.42.244.34 13:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Spartan-II Class II
There appears to be an edit war in regards to the second class of Spartan-II's. Can anyone cite a specific, verifiable source which states that there were no Spartan-II's who survived the 2545 augmentations or who can cite a specific, verifiable source in regards to the canonical merit of the second class? 64.238.49.65 20:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The AI in the ILB storyline "Durga/The Operator/Sleeping Princess" when one entity known as "Melissa," was created from the brain of a SPARTAN II. This SPARTAN was "Yasmine" who was born around 2531. In Halo: Fall of Reach, after graduation in 2525, the Class I SPARTANs are told that there will be another class of SPARTAN IIs. Yasmine was abducted in 2537 and trained as a SPARTAN recruit where in 2545, she died from complications in Augmentation. This does not mean that all of Class II perished, as 30 out of the 75 Class I candidates died in similar circumstances. The HW timeline shows inaccuracies. I'll write them in later.-- Forerunner 20:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no facts to support there was a final unit produced from Class II, we don't know the specifics but given the following quotes it doesn't seem like there were a lot of candidates. Ghosts of Onyx Chapter 5 Page 62:

''Ackerson stared at him a moment, then seemed to look through Kurt, past him. "I want you to train the next generation of Spartans." Kurt blinked, taking in what Ackerson had just said, not quite understanding. "Sir, I was under the impression that Chief Petty Officer Mendez had been reassigned years ago to carry out that mission." ''

''"The effort to train additional SPARTAN-IIs was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said. "There were other candidates within the gene pool, but they were out of sync with her age restriction protocols. And with the continuing war, her program funds were… diverted."''

He states that yes there was an effort, there were candidates, but they were out of sync, ilovebess tells us there was an attempt to train additional SPARTAN-IIs but failed. With the war getting worse Halsey looked at the situation and concluded it would be unnecessary to risk more life's and postponed training them.

Kurt then reaffirms that there were no other Spartans by saying the following:

''Kurt had always presumed other Spartans were being trained. That he and his fellows were the first in what would be a long line of Spartans. He'd never considered they might be the first, and the last, of their kind.''

Now Forerunner here seems to believe the following: There was a Class II (which is fine) and that there were final units produced (if he wants to believe that, fine; but there is nothing to prove that.) and that they joined the ranks of Class I during the Battle of Reach (which is totally untrue.)

He says there were 36 Spartans total, completely false. The Halo Wars timeline now says there were 28 Spartans total. Which would match the research done on the HBO story page. http://halostory.bungie.org/spartanroster.html

25 Spartans for the battle of reach takes into account all the losses suffered in the war. You had 33 Spartans that survived the augmentation process, Sam-034 dies during the first battle with the Covenant, that leaves 32, Kurt goes missing in 2531, 31 left, 3 more are killed between 2542-2552 that leaves 28, Grey team is missing, that leaves 25.

Now what about the Spartan too wounded to continue active duty? That is something that remains for debate, but for now completely beside the point.

And I will not discuss red team from Halo Wars, I do not consider the events of the game itself canon.

The Battle for Reach begins, 25 are split; 3 go on the space op, 22 are on the ground ops, 4 are killed during the impact that leaves 18. The rest is history.

Most of the people who know the fiction very well conclude, the same as I, that there were no final units produced from an attempted Class-II. Forerunner believes otherwise, I'll asked him to provide a source, all he has provided is ILB which is only centered around one subject, Yasmine who died during the augmentation. Taking into what facts we have, the most logical conclusion is what a lot of people believe, no final units were produced canonically. Durandal-217 22:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * One MAJOR fault with that...You forgot Randall and several others...does that mean that they are Class II then? Although Randall died before Reach, him not being included in the numbers of SPARTAN-IIs. According to your info suggests there would have been at least one Class II to fill in his place. This would mean that there was such a class and that I was right all along.-- Forerunner 22:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding more: Another spartan you forgot to mention, "Maria-062" survived the augmentation and graduated as one of the 33 but left the Navy some time before Reach. Sheila was also one of the 33 who was killed in 2544. So, removing the deceased, the three main Spartan Halo Wars characters, the fourth HW spartan... then that's 23 at Epsilon eridani, not 28. take away Red Team from HW then that's 20. I don't know whether or not Keiichi survived, but I'll include him at Reach anyway. So...that means that Seventeen Class Is were on Reach with three in space. Logically, a Class II must have existed, as even if the three Red Team members made it back in time, there's still space. -- Forerunner 22:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I've never considered Maria part of the canon, her story makes absolutely no sense. And as time has gone on that idea was probably discarded, the same as one day (hopefully) Halo Wars will be discarded. There are a lot of talented people who come up with an idea they think will work, only later in other revisions is it realized that that idea no longer fits with the overall picture.

It all comes down to what Eric Trautmann once wrote,

''We leave lots of hooks for future development buried in the text, to accomodate several ideas/stories we have percolating. Some may see the light of day, some may not. In general, its best to chalk such discrepancies up to "the fog of war" and if we get the chance, we've got a great explanation for the apparent discontinuity."''

Everything you've written still has one major flaw, nothing is there in the context of official canon to suggest there was a final unit produced from Class II. Durandal-217 23:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you're twisting my words. Randal although missing since 2532, considered to be the only Spartan truly missing by Halsey, would logically have to be part of the three Spartans KIA between 2542-2552. That list would include Sheila who died battle of Miridem in 2544. Another unnamed Spartan, and Randal. Durandal-217 22:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that there is nothing as of yet in the official canon which suggests that a final unit was produced from Class II, I don't see any conclusive evidence disproving it either. Nor do I see anything which directly cites something that would invalidate the second class and deem it non-canon. IMO, there is no room for speculation and since neither side can prove their point, the Spartan-II Class II section should be left as is and without mention of either side of the argument since with the current information provided both sides are deadlocked. Avatar of Chaos 05:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

You bring up some good points and I agree for the most part, the only other thing I have to add that makes the Class II thing non canon or whatever is time, Ackerson says that whole line 6 years before Yasmine was conscripted (December 4th 2531) which to me ends it as yeah the whole Yasmine thing is no longer part of the canon.

Let me be clear in case there is some doubt; I believe and accept that I love bees is canon, it was a fantastic story and I've always considered it part of the canon, and ILB is in fact embraced as canon. When I hear the word embrace when it comes to Halo, it pretty much spells it out "It is canon but there are certain things that need to be updated/addressed before we bring this into the fold." And there are certainly things that need to be addressed with ILB, Yasmine is one of them.

You've brought up the point that that class II section should be left as is because we cannot agree to disagree, I personally after reading what you've said, think it would be in the best interest to just delete it. If there is nothing to prove or disprove then really what is the point of having it there? Durandal-217 05:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Since there is no clarification as to what specifically in ilovebees is not canon, I would surmise that it should be considered canonical as per Frankie's statement as there is currently nothing which directly refutes it in its entirety. And the inclusion of Herzog and Standish references in other canonical works provides a more solid foundation for the inclusion of ilovebees in canon. Thus, the mention of the program and Yasmine should remain intact. We have verifiable sources for the info provided and the dates in question regarding the program do not present an issue.

On the one hand, we have Ackerson and Halsey's words from books laden with contradictions. Kurt's assertions are also not enough to establish indisputable evidence. On the other hand we have ilovebees and questionable canonicity. Given that we've been provided with a lack of clarification, Frankie's blanket statement regarding ilovebees, until further clarification is given, should suffice as sufficient proof except in cases where the information is directly in contradiction with something verified and vetted by other sources. Until more information is provided, I don't see how you can just delete the Class-II section. It may very well be possible that we can after the Halo Encyclopedia comes out later this year, if that project does move forward. To be honest, given the way canon is formed we have no way or really proving anything since it's one retcon away from being false, however at this moment, the facts in hand in my opinion do not point to Yasmine being confirmed non-canon and given that which we do have I lean towards it being canonical. Luckly, that need not always be the case and I think this requires a consensus opinion or for someone to get Bungie or Microsoft to just come out and publicly state what's what. Avatar of Chaos 14:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to point out that the lines on page 62 were said 6 years before Class II was started. All it means is that Class II was postponed because Halsey wanted to find a way to get more candidates without so many dying from Augmentation. The reason why Kurt thought that Class I would be the first and last of the SPARTAN-IIs was because of the fact that Class II was still to begin and that so much funding was redirected to other projects. The age sync line was referencing how hard it took ONI to find children able to survive the Augmentation. And what were the chances that just SIX years after Kurt being informed this, that a young girl with the genetic abilities turns six years old. The right age to become training to be a SPARTAN. All ONI had to do was wait, it would take years to find who were able to survive the Augments.-- Forerunner 15:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Good points, but even still when you look at from a logical point of view, even if there was a final unit produced from Class II, it wouldn't really mean that much to the story, there would be no point in bringing in a second class if there wasn't a logical purpose, and even if there was it wouldn't be a very smart one, because you would either have to A: kill them off. Or B: have them be lost to whatever they came up with, which would just seem more like a copy of the Onyx ending then anything else (not trying to say it was bad, it was actually fitting).

And again, if there was a second class of Spartans nobody has ever mentioned them, or seen them, if there were final units, someone would have mentioned it, especially Halsey. There is no way you could keep something like that from a woman of her standard.

All of this is a touchy subject though, we each have our own opinions, but no solid answers. To that end what about this: If nothing is mentioned about a second class of SPARTAN-IIs when the Halo Encyclopedia hits this November would that then be enough to justify the section to either be discarded, or formatted to be separate from official canon until it's clarified. Thoughts? Durandal-217 01:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)