Talk:United Nations Space Command

Can you but the UNSC Ranks up please! Stocky 11:17am 22 December 2006

Hey is the ship list up to date? What about that new ship Spirit of Fire--JohnSpartan117 01:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. it has already been added. -ED 01:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I assume it says "?" because youre not sure if its a cruiser or carrier, could that be noted? Perhaps put it in both Cruiser and Carrier with a "?"--JohnSpartan117 02:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be nice for all the planets to have the date they were attacked/ glassed with the name. - Spartan 1138 12:48, 2 December 2006

I think there should be the types of UNSC merines and naval personel(example: sargent, specialist, armored, etc.).--prophit of war 19:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * if you mean ranks, I disagree. Rank links will clutter up the page. -ED 00:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The UNSC and the Colonial Administration Authority
so weird

The CAA
Halopedia has an entry on the Colonial Administration Authority, which is vaguely described as the effective civilian leadership of the human race for much of the Halo timeline. However, this otherwise excellent article claims the UNSC instead is not only the defense apparatus, but the whole government instead. If it's been asked before, here it is again: Which is the case? If the CAA is indeed the source of governmental power on Earth beyond this vague discrepancy, is it then safe to edit the UNSC page appropriately?

Lo-Volt 08:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say that the CAA is the civilian government, and the part about the UNSC being the human government is just an artifact from before we noticed TFoR talking about it. --Dragonclaws(talk) 21:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. -ED 01:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

During the events of Halo 2 and 3, Earth is under an emergency military government, which would be the UNSC. 168.169.115.94 14:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This seems pretty simple to me:

UEG: United Earth Government: this is the civilian government for Earth

CAA: This is a single name for various civilian colonial governments throughout human territory

UN/UNSC: The top-level government for all human worlds, and the seat of military power.

It's like the difference between Federal, State, County and Local governments now. --Caathrok

Change in marine armor
Can anyone think of any ideas why the marines armor cganged in halo2 And how they were able to give all the marines new armor that fast? mendoza

They probably worked on it through Halo: CE and gave it when it was needed.--Haloman117 03:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

they probaly finised it while the story was focused away from Earth,like in halo 1 or first strike,are all the new weapons and armour was given to the troops at Earth Voy101

UNSC = American controlled Universe.
Think about it. The awards, the language, the Mexican immigrants, the UNSC universe is an American controlled universe. KillerCRS 03:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I seriously doubt it. Like, really doubt it. Not only does it say in Halo: Contact Harvest that the USA exists in name only, but the UN/UEG is a unified force of ALL of Earth (it clearly says in the book that the UN's old system of nation-states collapsed). So no, unfortunately, the USA isn't the leading power in the Halo universe---I am almost certain the US lost its superpower status in the late 21st century and degraded to a "great power" until in 2160-2200 when the UN united Earth. or, it was no longer the sole superpower of the world and was challenged by dozens of other rising powers.

Either way, the UNSC is NOT American-controlled. It is controlled by the United Earth Government. There is 0% evidence that the UNSC is controlled by a single nation---although yes, the Marine Corps use American slang and other culture stuff---but there are other cultural influences as well from other nations, further rendering your idea of a UNSC-American controlled force obsolete. -LiquidNazgul


 * Yeah, essesntially. Bungie is American, and it's natural bias to assume that yours is the best civilization and the one of the future. When I'm writing fanfic, I sometimes have to remind myself of that fact so I don't write about a utopian fantasy instead of present-day America with a new name. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 05:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That is just because it was easier for them to make it that way, as the developers and writers are mostly American. It's one of the game's criticisms. -ED 22:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * American? i seem to remember a certain Chips Dubbo, a loveable Australian marine. i remember that there are guys who sound like they're canadian (not sure), and i remember that Lord, ie; Lord Hood, is a title granted only by a Monarchy. American? well, yeah, but theres HEAPS of other, subtler references in there too. -- SpecOps306 01:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah the UNSC is a United Nations controlled government in 2552.--Grievous797 19:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * But who's the most powerful nation in the UN? That's right; I'm going there. :P (no offense) g u e s t y -p e r s o n y -t h <font color="#00cc00">i <font color="#00ff00">n <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">y  03:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The accents and faces are easy to appear as though they were from many nations but the culture, slang, and behavior of the Marines is decidably American. -ED 00:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I want to point out that the UN,which is what created the UNSC,is in New York,which is in the U.S. if you knw anything Voy101


 * While the UN building is in New York, the land that it actually resides on is International Territory, much like the middle of oceans and Antarctica. US law enforcement agencies have no authority there. Only UN security forces do.Edmonton guy 20:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Bungie does use effort to use a variety of races though. I noticed in Halo:CE some Asians, but they were only crew and not Marines, haha. I guess that kinda makes sense? (No offense, cuz I'm Asian myself, haha.) Okay okay but really, I guess maybe I'm just saying that certain nations in the UNSC would focus less on military contributions and more in other things (like thethe MJOLNIR Mark VI from Songnam).

The UNSC doesn't have nations. At least not on Earth anymore. This is confirmed in Halo: Contact Harvest.

-LiquidNazgul.

UNSC Army
What about the UNSC Army? i think there should be a section for them. i'm sure there was one at one time, but it's probably been reverted by someone who hasnt got the...uh...time to check it out properly. I'm linking it. -- SpecOps306 03:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, it's back! that was fast! -- SpecOps306 03:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The UNSC Army has only ever been mentioned once, so there's not a lot to say about it. -ED 01:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

language
The most spoken language is Chiness.It have more than 1 billion of persones that speak this language today, I think they will be more in 2552. (about 1/6 of the total population.) Chief frank 001 19:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah but currently they're all learning English too, haha...

UNSC Df?
i have a question what dose DF mean at the end? defence force? Fleet? What is it?

It stands for Defense Force. (CommanderTony 03:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC))

colonies
how many colonies are there, contact harvest says 17 before the war-Croix129

the "17" is a discrepancy (and a HUGE ONE) on the part of the author of Contact Harvest. By the year 2390, there were 210 Inner Colonies in various stages of terraforming. Harvest is Colonised in 2468, the Spirit of Fire is constructed as a colony ship in 2473 (the ship from Halo Wars). My assumption here is that Harvest is one of the First Outer Colonies (since it remains the farthest planet from earth even after continous human expansion). By 2490, there were over 800 Human Colonies (and growing) throughout the Orion Arm of the Milky Way. The Covenant arrives @ Harvest in 2525 --Caathrok


 * Yeah probably just a huge discrepancy. Or a major one if I was referring to specific ones (like Outer or Inner)...or a minor one referring to the major colonies (idk like...Harvest or Reach).

UNSCDF template?
What about a template at the bottom of the Army, Marine and Navy articles, with the other branches, under the UNSC?  Kora ‘Morhekee   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  07:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

UEG?
My Halo 1 manual mentions that the Warthog is the standard vehicle of the UEG instead of UNSC. is this a typo, or a legitimate organisation?  Kora ‘Morhekee   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  08:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Or the United Earth Government? [[Image:HalfJaw03.jpg|20px]]  Kora ‘Morhekee   The Battle-Net  My Conquests.  19:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Mine has UNSC in it,but you could be talking about the Xbox version,i got the PC version Voy101

The Halo pc manual says unsc so i asume that it is a typo though i cant be shure as i dont have an Xbox version of the original game. User:Sir aaron

it is possible it stands for united earth government User:Sir aaron

Sol System
wheres the rest of the planets in are system?don't you think that the UNSC would hold those too? Voy101

Thing is, we don't know for sure if the other planets were even colonized. For instance, we've never heard of Venus being occupied by the UNSC. -- UNSC Trooper  TalkMy Work 15:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Mars is colonized. It has been referred to several times. However, I do not know about the other planets, although I'm going to assume that most of them have at least some settlements on either the main body, their moons, or both. It just doesn't make sense for us to have started settlements hundreds of light years from the sun without first colonizing terrestrial bodies in our own solar system. Edmonton guy 20:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I've read and heard that Mars is colonized,and at least Io has something on it,but i'm wondering about the other planets and moons Voy101

about three of the planets in our solar system are gas giants so there off the table.moons of saturn and jupiter like europa and titan would be terraformable. then again how did they get terraform tech they dont seem advanced enough to do so. DeadReanimation 20:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Moons and small planetoids are habitable, but don't write off gas giants just yet. Tobias Buckell has written some (from what I've heard) quite excellent steampunk science fiction about colonists inhabiting the upper atmosphere of a gas giant. As for terraforming "equipment", I don't think its actually a "pump in read-made atmosphere, plant a few forests, and voila" kind of process. At first, it would be more using the most advanced technology to slowly get the environment to only a harsh state, where life for the simplest organisms is difficult, but not impossible. Afterward, genetically engineered bacteria would be introduced to further modify the planetary environment; then plants, to produce a breathable atmosphere; then animals to support the ecosystem; and then, finally, full colonisation. The process would be a multigenerational one, spanning decades, if not centuries. By 2552, the process might still be ongoing. We know from Contact Harvest that the UNSC chooses planets that are already able to support lifeforms, cutting the time for terraforming, but it would still be a long time. -- ' Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek ''  Honour Light Your Way! ''' 00:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Weapons
why are the game weapons on a link while the novel ones are here? is it ok if i put the game weapons on this page too and take them off the link? Voy101

UN / UNSC / CAA
A lot of people often say that the UNSC pertains to the UN, I want to clear things up a little. Here's my view on the whole UN/UNSC/CAA thing:

We know that the UNSC was formed by the UN during the Argyre Planitia Campaign on Mars in 2163. A lot of people take that the UNSC still belongs to the UN - it doesn't! Although the UNSC pertained to the UN at the time of its establishment in 2163, it does not pertain to the UN anymore because the UN was replaced by the CAA (we don't know when exactly, but we could assume it was sometime in the 2160's). Thus, stating that the UNSC is the military arm of the UN is incorrect. The UNSC is the military/navigational arm of the CAA, the UN doesn't exist anymore. On a conclusive note the UN does not exist anymore in Halo.

Of course my theory can ultimately be proved as being incorrect, we just have to see if Mr. Staten can clear things up in Halo: Contact Harvest. -- UNSC Trooper  TalkMy Work 17:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Update the Colony Systems and Planets
Shouldn't we update the colony systems, cities and planets section with new information? Halo 3 and Halo: Contact Harvest have been released, so we have to update the section with new info. We can search for info in one of our categories:


 * http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Places
 * http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Countries
 * http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Planets
 * http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Cities

Cheers! -- UNSC Trooper  TalkMy Work 17:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Something new?
I think that there should be a list of the people in the UNSC that actually made a huge difference in the war, such as Admiral Whitcomb(Helped destroy a ton of Covenant ships when the Unyielding Heirophant[sp?] exploded.).

200 million?
Anyone have a link for why it says that 200 million is an estimate of the humans left? The USA alone has 200 000 000+ citizens, so I highly doubt that only 200 000 000 are left in the entire galaxy.

--<font color="#000000">Petty Officer First Class <font color="#000000">SPARTAN-G023 <font color="#006400"> Comm Channel<font color="#000000">Mission History 20:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe it's in the Bestiarum. The Covenant have destroyed an awful lot. --<font color="#4D56B1">Dragon<font color="#F28500">c laws (<font color="#4D56B1">talk ) 16:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess, but I still find it very hard to believe that only 200 million are left.--<font color="#000000">Petty Officer First Class [[Image:Spartan III.png|30px]]<font color="#000000">SPARTAN-G023 <font color="#006400"> Comm Channel<font color="#000000">Mission History 23:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 200 Million referrs exclusively to Earth. The remaining colonies and their populations were not counted. -- E D [[Image:ArmyROTC.gif|15px]] 00:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

200 millions on earth not in all more on other colony left<font color="SteelBlue">C <font color="#A9A9A9">F <font color=Teal>0 <font color=Teal>0 <font color=Teal>1 00:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a specific number for pre-war population? I've heard figures ranging from 7 billion to 13 billion. Is there any definite number?  Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  22:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

All of the numbers you guys are throwing out are totally wrong. Earth's population today is about 6 billion, agreed?

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/human_pop/worldpop.jpg

Also, population growth is fundamentally an exponential curve, given by Population = initial population * e^(r*T) in the absence of severe limiting factors. Throughout human history, technological progress has been sufficient to maintain an exponential growth curve, and given the social problems, overcrowding, and technological progress described in Halo, its seems clear that the exponential growth continues.

So, using the exponential growth curve, the population of the Earth at 2300 (right before off-world colonization) is 123 billion!

http://www.halowars.com/GameInfo/Timeline.aspx

According to the Halo Wars time line ^^^, by 2390:

"There were 210 human-occupied worlds in various stages of terraforming, and the population burden across human-controlled space was largely stabilized."

So, if we consider that the population of the Earth at this time was significantly larger than 10 billion, and that there were 210 planets which had been colonized to such a degree, we get a population of 2.1 trillion. Considering that 10 billion is the expected population of the Earth at about 2050

http://esa.un.org/unpp/p2k0data.asp

it's reasonable that by Halo standards 10 billion is a reasonable population for an inner colony.

Furthermore, I think a reasonable estimate for the number of humans in the universe before the Covenant war is 1-2 trillion (or significantly higher, if we consider that land will be more abundantly available than on Earth today), not these ridiculous "7-13 billion" figures, which completely ignore the well-established over-population and 210+ planet expansion well described in the canon. And after the covenant war, the number of humans is still much, much higher than 200 million. If we consider that Earth itself was not seriously bombarded or "glassed" outside of a single region, we have to conclude that the human population had to be well over 10 billion even after the end of the covenant war. Simple logic dictates it. If anyone has any questions or disputes my conclusions, feel free to PM me.

Using a simple exponential curve, that reflects population growth throughout human history (a history filled with warfare, I might add), we get the following figures:

Population (in billions) at year assuming a 1% annual growth rate:

2000: 6 2050: 10 2100: 16 2150: 27 2200: 45 2250: 74 2300: 123 2350: 202 2400: 333 2450: 549 2500: 905 2550: 1492 2600: 2460

Conclusion:

The population of the UNSC before the war starts is anywhere between 900 billion and 365 trillion depending on how the growth rate fits between 1% and 2%.

--CaptainZoidberg 18:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Great argument! Lots of information. One flaw, however. Most population statistics people (I cannot think of their proper title) agree that the human population is going to even off at about 11-12 billion people by 2150. The population would still increase every year after that, but not to the point that it is in the trillions by the 26th century. I think Earth would have from 15 to 20 billion people, with the colonies ranging from a few hundred thousand (in the outer colonies) to the low billions (with the inner ones). Edmonton guy 20:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * WOW...nice. This reminds me of Frankie's explanation of how the melee worked, hahaha. Good job. Meshgeroya 05:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

There are only 200 million humans left at the beginning of Halo 3. It says so in the beastiurum. Parts of Earth have been completly glassed (as stated by Frankie in the "journey's end" vidoc. Only 200 million humans remain, live with it. User: CaptainZoidberg. 21:49, 3 May 2009.

Major UNSC Events
Why isn't Operation First Strike mentioned? <font color="Silver">Master <font color="DarkGray">Chief <font color="Gray">Petty <font color="DimGray">Officer <font color="RoyalBlue">Spartan Contribution 13:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I got it on there now Voy101

Espilon Eridanus
Reach, Tribute, Eridanus II, and other planets that are in a "Eridani" system are all in one system. The "Eridanus Star System," "Espilon Eridanus System, Espilon Eridani" are all most likely the same system. In Halo: Contact Harvest, on page 62, it says Reach and Tribute are in the same system. I'm pretty sure that Eridanus II is in that system too. Thus, the Insurrection and Eridani Rebels are probably the same thing. I know you guys might be skeptical on Rebels operating in Earth's most populated and carefully administered system, but hey, who are we to speak for the Innies?


 * Hey, nobody thought Al Qaeda could strike at the US like they did. Terrorists have a way of proving everybody tragically wrong in their understanding of their capabilities. I personally find it all too easy to believe that even in Reach's system, the Innies have (or Had) a foothold. But Eridanus is a constellation, not a cluster of planets - the stars within it can be a long way away from each other, and have, I think, 106 stars. Any of those could be Eridanus Secundus and Epsilon Eridanus.  Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  01:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Uh... Eridanus II isn't in the same system. <_< -- <font color="Black">Sgt. <font color="Black">johnson [[Image:General-gr1.gif|30px]] 01:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's what I'm saying. They're not the same system, but they are a part of the same Constellation. A constellation is only a group of stars seen from Earth - they don't even have to be anywhere near each other, as long as they form a picture from Earth. And the references to Epsilon Eridanus, I think, were meant to be Epsilon Eridani instead.  Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  07:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I was wrong. They are in the same system. -- <font color="Black">Sgt. <font color="Black">johnson [[Image:General-gr1.gif|30px]] 03:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

USSR
Soviet Union did not broke apart in Halo Universe and was still existing as part of UNSC?

Sorry, but no. The Cold War happened, Mother Russia shredded itself apart, and the communists are still terrorists. On the bright side, at least there's no official America!  Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  01:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I resent that. >:[ -- <font color="Black">Sgt. <font color="Black">johnson [[Image:General-gr1.gif|30px]] 01:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Which one? The Communist part or the American part? :P  Specops306 ,  Kora 'Morhek  07:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I resent the American part Voy101

Communists were beaten off for good during the Interplanetary War, so there's no way the Soviet Union would still exist. -- UNSC Trooper  TalkMy Work 08:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It isn't confirmed that the USSR doesn't exist in the Halo universe, but judging from the events in the Interplanetary War and the information in Contact Harvest, it seems very unlikely that they do. But we do atleast know for sure that the US doesn't exist anymore :-D Baryon15 19:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Slight Aesthetic Error
It seems there are to many Era Icons overwhelming this page and their overlaping the title. Can someone condence some of these icons so the title is no overlapped?

Regards,

Jake


 * It's not overlapping the title. Adjust your screen resolution. -- <font color="Black">Sgt. <font color="Black">johnson [[Image:General-gr1.gif|30px]] 22:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

My screen resolution is 1024 x 768 a very common screen resolution. The fact remains that some of these icons can be removed so the title can be seen better.

Regards,

Jake

New theory on UNSC politics
Here's my new theory: The United Nations Space Command is the name of the state, with the UNSC Defense Force as their military arm. The governing body is the U.N, the UEG is simply the name of Earth's local government. The CAA is the executive branch, responsible for making minor descisions, and putting laws made by the legislative branch (United Nations Parliament?) into practice. Different colonies have their own names for their local governments, ie: Harvest Parliament, United Earth Government.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 14:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No. Click here -- UNSC Trooper [[Image:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] TalkMy Work 15:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, even so, in Halo: The Fall of Reach, characters seem to refer to the UNSC as the state even before the Covenant attack Harvest.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 15:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

From what I can gather from the novels and whatnot, each planet has its own regional government - Earth has the United Nations, which in turn governs the separate nation-states; Harvest had its own parliament but, being a still new and small colony, had yet to develop any individual nations; while Reach, being essentially one giant military base, would be under a military government. After that, each planet us under the Unified Earth Government, the space oversight and exploration arm of which is the CAA- of which the UNSC is the colonial police branch, and the UNSCDF is the military sub-branch. Then, during the war, the UEG and CAA are basically dissolved and the UNSC takes charge as a military "dictatorship" (I don't actually know if it's a dictatorship or not, or even how much influence the UNSC actually has over civilians, but the word seems to fit). Confused? I wouldn't blame you. It makes you wonder if those Insurrectionists didn't have the right idea! ^_^ -- ' Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek ''  Honour Light Your Way! ''' 05:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Rebuilding
Do the humans ever rebuild their empire?
 * That remains to be seen, but empires rise and fall like wheat in fields, so it's reasonable to imagine that it will rise again in some way, shape, or form.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 21:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Interstellar Distances
The interstellar distances in the Territory subsection seem to be rather dubious. Harvest, the furthest colony from Earth, is mentioned to be only 11 light-years away from Earth. Yet, in The Fall of Reach, an inner colony orbiting the star Lambda Serpentis is mentioned. Lambda Serpentis on average 38.4 light-years away from Earth. --153.90.88.115 06:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Harvest was the farthest colony from Earth, in one direction. By the way, Lambda Serpentis is an Outer Colony. The farthest UNSC colony yet known is Beta Centauri, at five hundred or-so light years from Earth. This might seem a bit too far for UNSC slipspace drives, but if you do the maths it would take less than a year to reach that star. Read page twenty-four of Halo: Contact Harvest if you don't believe me.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 15:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the Inner Colonies expanded to include some of the more developed Outer Colonies? Harvest was the furthest colony from Earth in 2468, when it was founded. Obviously more were founded further after Harvest. --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  23:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Alternatively, "Inner" and "Outer" may not refer to position relative to Earth, but to infrastructure - planets such as Sigma Octanus IV were much further than Harvest, yet were regarded as "Inner" colonies, while Harvest was almost as close to Earth as Reach was yet is an "Outer" colony. The Inner Colonies may be comparable to modern national infrastructure - First World nations are the most built up and technologically/socially advanced, while Third World nations are nowhere near. Geographically, too, most Third World nations seem to be in the southern hemisphere, while most First-World nations are in the north - Australia and New Zealand defy that convention. Perhaps this is just the same concept being applied in interstellar space? --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  03:18, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

"Background" section?
I strikes me as very odd that there's a "Background" section and a "History" section. "Background" information should be incoporated elsewhere...unless I'm not getting something? The 888th Avatar (Talk) 05:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Wish you were there....
Dont you just wish you were there to witness everything lol.

--Haloid95 02:38, 4 May 2009 (UTC)