Talk:Great Schism

Ghosts of Onyx
Ghosts of Onyx provided more information on the Civil War. Perhaps we should use it to add on too.

Other Names?
Ehy dont we call it the  Covenant Civil War ? -- Forerunner 20:20 23 December 2006


 * Perhaps because the fact it was to groups of a religous organization splitting.--98.244.6.199 04:39, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Back then it was "Civil War of the Covenant".--  Fore  run  ner '' 17:36, 1 August 2011 (EDT)

Those weren't councillors
If your refering to the dead elites you came across in I think Uprising, those were simply massacered minor elites. AS you said most of the councillors were massacered but the only councillors left were still in the detention area that you came across in the level the great journy.Halo3 19:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)--Halo3

They were Councilurs examine there headdress they are Councillors.

Well like I said, if your refering to the massacered blue elites (elite minors) at the beginning of the level uprising than those aren't councillors but mere minor elites.If your refering to the elites in the detention/prison area in "the great journy", the one with the hunter pair trapped inside than yes those are probably some of the remaining councillor elitesHalo3 20:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)-Halo3

how did the elites figure out the true meaning of the installations anyway? Crubs 04:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The arbiter found out from 343 guilty spark and from the gravemind and then relayed the message to as many others he could--Thehalocodplayer 16:00, 1 March 2012 (EST)

I'd just like this oportunity to say.
Begun the covenant war has Yoda

Here as well the arbiter and half jaw only took command in the spare of the moment so could they be removed after the elites had time to reorganise there forces, and replaced by the councilors. User:Kami-Sama

Arbiter and Rtas are commanderrs but what about Xytan in GoO he rallied the elites at Joyous Exulation

Template
What the heck happened to the template on this article?

GoO
What about putting some of the information from Ghosts of Onyx into this article? -- SpecOps306 03:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * forget it, i did it myself. though it could do with some polishing!-- SpecOps306 08:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

?
Hey, I don't know about you guys, but isn't this article already cleaned up?-- Caboose  File:Caboose.jpg|35 px]] Orange Juice  and  Cookies  21:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep, pretty much. G ü é ß Ł ¥ -∏ é Ґ ∫ ø ñ ¥ -† ħ î <font color="#00ff00">И <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">¥  21:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It could still use sources. -- ED ( talk )(shockfront) 22:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * SOURCEZ!!! I'll see what I can do, but I don't have GoO (just borrowed it a while back), so someone else will need to add page numbers. <font color="#000000">G <font color="#770000">ü <font color="#cc0000">é <font color="#ff0000">ß <font color="#ff3333">Ł <font color="#ff6666">¥ -<font color="#9999ff">∏ <font color="#6666ff">é <font color="#3333ff">Ґ <font color="#0000ff">∫ <font color="#0000cc">ø <font color="#000066">ñ <font color="#000000">¥ -<font color="#000000">† <font color="#007700">ħ <font color="#00cc00">î <font color="#00ff00">И <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">¥  22:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well whaddya know? I just happen to have GoO right next to me. What do I need to cite?-- Caboose  File:Caboose.jpg|35 px]] Orange Juice  and  Cookies  22:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Two of the three book sources on the bottom don't have page numbers; just click the arrow button next to the number and it'll go up to the ref tag. Or something. <font color="#000000">G <font color="#770000">ü <font color="#cc0000">é <font color="#ff0000">ß <font color="#ff3333">Ł <font color="#ff6666">¥ -<font color="#9999ff">∏ <font color="#6666ff">é <font color="#3333ff">Ґ <font color="#0000ff">∫ <font color="#0000cc">ø <font color="#000066">ñ <font color="#000000">¥ -<font color="#000000">† <font color="#007700">ħ <font color="#00cc00">î <font color="#00ff00">И <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">¥  18:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Leaders
After looking through the article I thought I would just point one or two things out. On the side of the page where it mentions the leaders of the two factions. I noticed a couple that didn't seem like they belonged with the rest. Gargantum, the Alpha Jiralhanae from GoO, is up there. And, though I'm only guessing, it seems like he would probably only be a ship master or a fleet master at best, and I doubt he's helping to lead the Covenant loyalists. Though I may be wrong. Rtas 'vadumee, Half-Jaw, whatever you want to call him. As cool as he is, he's still only an ultra, and once again I doubt he's helping to lead the sepratists. He might have helped in the beginning but now that they've had time to collect themselves, he's probably out of the picture unless he achieved a promotion. Voro Nar 'Mantakree. *WARNING: SPOILER* Once again, I like him. But he's dead. And unless the Covenant have discovered some new technology that can bring someone back to life even when their body was comepletly annihilated, I doubt he's helping to lead the sepratists. *END SPOILER* That's it. Just thought I'd point that out. Lekrel 04:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I forgot one more. (Must be tired of hearing me talk.) *WARNING: SPOILER* Xytan Jar Wattinree. He was onboard the supercarrier Sublime Transcendence. And then that whole thing with the NOVA bomb happened and, well, you get the picture. Same thing with Voro. *END SPOILER* Lekrel 04:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It's been a while since I posted that and no one has responded yet, so unless someone has any reason why it should be kept the way it is, then I'll go ahead and make the changes myself. The only reason I've waited this long is because I'm afraid I might mess something up. Lekrel 03:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Most????
Whats to say that the Seperatists have more grunts then the loyalists. Or more hunters? Sure, in Halo 2 it was that way. But in Halo 3 you fight grunts, and Hunters, yet they are never on your side....only Elites are...There were more grunts and hunters on their side, at least more fighting MC and Arbiter.--User:JohnSpartan117 05:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to say that High Charity is the largest ship in the entire Covenant fleet, and is bound to carry millions, or billions of people, so I highly doubt Master Chief walked through the entire war going on in High Charity, because its INCREDIBLY HUGE. Also, when you look in Halo 2 cutscenes, what are those explosions around it? Covenant ships, and practically hundreds are getting destroyed, carrying lots of Seperatists and Loyalists. So I think what you're fighting in Halo 3 are troops coming from the few but deadly remaining ships from the bloody battle what you saw in Halo 2. Although you're right about grunts, we don't know if most grunts are elite-allied or brute-allied, they're too scared to support one side. Hunters, I'm more likely to say they're more pro-elite. (Cyborg Robot 06:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC))

Remember also that High Charity is 348 Km in diameter so Masterchief had to walk a lot for reach the Forerunner Dreadnought, but i noticed that the City isnt too big due that the Dreadnought had no problems to leave so i guess that its a little bit smaller, anyways i guess that almost all the Hunters gone with the Separatist due that the elites and the hunters share a similiar war poetry :) also Brutes sucks Its incredible the speed of the explosions of every Cruiser being destroyed.

Seperatist Marines?
Millions of Marines in the Covenant Seperatist Army? What marines??? Could someone please elaborate??? SpartHawg948 04:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The UNSC fought with the Separatists against the Loyalists. I guess it would be like French soldiers helping the Americans and German mercenaries fighting with the British during the American Revolution. -- CoH| Councillor ]] Specops306  -  Kora   'Morhek  04:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * But the UNSC forces have their own section in the strength catagory. They don't need to be listed twice, unless we're going to also list the Elites as part of the UNSC forces. SpartHawg948 05:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Covenant Victory in Human-Covenant War
I say, if the Covenant Civil War (Great Schism)had never occured, humanity wouldn't have survived. The Sangheili were the only reason we won at The Ark. There's no other way we could have won in space against the Brute ships.

User:GenralMajors

In my analysis, if the Civil War hadn't started, then, depending on factors, either Installation 05 would have been activated by Tarturus and the Arbiter, or something would have stopped it(Gravemind sending the MC to the control room instead for instance) and the humans would be even more screwed on Earth(doubtful the MC would have been able to get there in time), then the flood would have come and killed the humans(no Sangheili ships to sterilize half of Africa), then, with no humans to activate the Ark, the Flood would have consumed the galaxy. So Truth inadvertently saved the entire galaxy, irony huh?--Kre &#39;Nunumee 22:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Halo: Evolutions updates on the Great Schism
The Halo: Evolutions story The Return gives new information about the Great Schism AFTER Halo 3. Apparently, each race didn't return to rebuild their homeworlds as stated on the various pages of the wiki, but instead the war continued for another six years, and was still ongoing at the time of the story. It also stated that the Brutes had broken into several intercine civil wars of their own, and that the Sangheili had lost the knowledge on how to build new ships when they made enemies of the Prophets (who had that knowledge), and were slowly loosing their fleet through attrition.
 * What are these "various pages of the wiki" you mention? That final sentence with "Each Race" in the article is incorrect... don't know who add that there... but that is a speculation. We apologise for the inconvenience as we cannot monitor all articles in Halopedia.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 23:02, November 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * I apologize, Subtank, if my post was rather brash or inconsiderate. And what do you know, the speculation that each race returned to rebuild their homeworld was just added back, and the new cannon info was deleted. Seems like somebody didn't read up on the new info. The admins probably should change it back.

Xytan dead
Halo Encylcopedia has confirmed he was killed in the Nova Bomb explosion so I've updated his status to KIA.Flayer92 05:01, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Beginning
Can we really say that the schism itself began on October 20th? Brutes slaying the Elites on Earth was an isolated incident, and the all-out war didn't really begin until November 2nd. Everyone else in the Covenant were blissfully unaware of what was happening on Earth. It's a bit like how the Skirmish over Harvest isn't really a part of the Human-Covenant War; it happened well before any war had even been declared. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 12:38, August 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * We could consider the massacre as part of events leading to the Great Schism. In my opinion, the Schism officially began in the Halo 2 level Uprising, when the majority of the Sangheili declared war on the Jiralhanae and those affiliated with them.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 12:41, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Subtank. Because if you think about it like that, Jugus, than the Great Schism began a LONG time before that. Because there had to be smaller things going on before that, political backstabbing, assassinations, and all the other actions the Prophets had to take before initiating war. The fight at Earth was one of those. Vegerot ( talk )  17:16, 1 August 2011 (EDT)!


 * I'd say that the Great Schism officially began on October 21, though the long buildup is nontheless important. I feel that our earliest glimpse into the build-up was 2535, where a gap formed in-between Truth and Regret as their attitudes to the caste system and increased secrecy led to Jiralhanae; Sangheili and Kig-yar ships attacking each other, just like the schism, believing the other(s) to be rebellius.--  Fore  run  ner '' 17:34, 1 August 2011 (EDT)

 * bump* It would appear that the Schism officially began on either November 2nd (if we were to follow GoO, page 245) or November 3rd (if we were to follow Halo 2's Uprising). The events prior to this date would be treated as events building up/leading to the official declaration.— subtank   01:07, 3 October 2012 (EDT)


 * Bumping old proposal. *Bump* — subtank   19:16, 29 April 2014 (EDT)

Cite error: Invalid ref tag; no text was provided for refs named Evolutions
Anyone know how to fix that?

It's at the bottom. It says:

^ Cite error: Invalid tag; no text was provided for refs named Evolutions


 * Fixed.


 * Thanks!Editorguy (talk) 10:26, 28 June 2016 (EDT)

Removal of the UNSC from belligerents
The UNSC were present and fought the Covenant during Great Schism. However the Great Schism - according to the books, novels and official descriptions - was a conflict between the Sangheili + Followers against the Covenant + Followers. The UNSC was only involved in it by the extension of the Human-Covenant War, wich is a separate conflict and a separate page. It's related, but I think it should be kept separate to prevent confusion.

In addition, The Banished for example, fought the Covenant while the Human-Covenant war was going on. The Banished are not a listed belligerent on the Human-Covenant war page as their raids against the Covenant were a separate conflict.

The UNSC's involvement in the Great Schism, was merely an extension of their efforts in the Human-Covenant war. Removing them from listed belligerents will make the infobox easier to understand and have less clutter.Editorguy (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2017 (EDT)


 * I don't think this is a comparable situation to the Banished, though. The UNSC was involved in and influenced key events of the Great Schism (e.g. the deaths of Tartarus and Truth), unlike the Banished in the Covenant War (who were just raiding some supplies). Foreign states can be (and often are) involved in someone else's civil wars, and in the Schism's case the UNSC's contribution was substantial enough to be noted. --Jugus (talk) 01:06, 3 April 2017 (EDT)


 * The UNSC definitely were involved! Although it's more so portrayed as an overlap of the two conflicts (Human-Covenant War and Covenant civil war). In addition the infobox is rather cluttered including the UNSC for a few dates but absent for several, as the Great Schism transformed from a civil-war to ongoing battles in the post-war years it becomes rather convoluted. I think the several mentions of UNSC involvement in the article itself demonstrates their involvement, the infobox just doesn't seem to have the space for them with the Great Schism really being two timelines of conflicts squished into one.


 * By including the UNSC, we could hypothetically include the Flood too; as they were involved in the fall of High Charity, and the Flood momentarily sided with the Master Chief and the Sangheili kill Truth and the Covenant. It's not to say that Flood or UNSC were unimportant during the conflict, more so that they were third parties by extension of other conflicts and would convolute they key billegerants of the Great Schism. They still have significant mentions in the article itself, so I don't mean to disagree with you entirely!Editorguy (talk) 05:00, 5 April 2017 (EDT)

Date
This has been a topic of discussion lately, so I thought I'd mention it here. I'm starting to get the idea that the Great Schism ended when the Covenant collapsed. Halo: Envoy states that the Great Schism has ended, while Fractures has "in 2553 following the Great Schism". The Jiralhanae-Sangheili conflicts that take place after the Covenant's collapse are likely just separate conflicts and minor skirmishes. That being said, I would be against a page for a "Sangheili-Jiralhanae war" like Halo Nation has.

Edit: After briefly checking Halo Waypoint, the universe articles for the Jiralhanae refer to the Covenant's collapse being the Great Schism's outcome, N'tho's claims that the Battle of Installation 00 was the "final throes of the Great Schism", the Arbiter's, Gek's, the Covenant cruiser's, and the Covenant's article, as well as several Canon Fodder articles, claim that the Great Schism has ended. -- NightHammer (talk)(contribs) 01:40, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Agreed. While I had missed the Waypoint articles Envoy makes it pretty clear it ended. Sith Venator Mega Blastoise.gif ( Dank Memes ) 04:54, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I guess the Great Schism can be said to have ended when the Covenant did, then. --Jugus (talk) 12:01, 30 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I'll see if I have time tonight to rewrite it. -- NightHammer (talk)(contribs) 19:22, 9 May 2017 (EDT)


 * It depends on how Halopedia defines the Great Schism. I've personally viewed the Great Schism as the conflict with Elites vs Covenant, and the Sangheili-Jiralhanae war was the conflict after with Elites vs Brutes. We've condensed both conflicts into one here hence why the infobox is a bit cluttered. I think it's fine the way it is, but if we do separate the two conflicts from each other, I think that it's absolutely necessary we make a Sangheili-Jiralhanae war page. It is canon, and I can provide many sources if needed and would be more than happy to get started on that page should we change the dates. On another note, it's kinda funny, I remember years ago when discussing its inclusion in the Post Covenant War Conflicts talk page everyone on Halopedia just said: "It's just part of the Great Schism". So it's rather interesting if we're going back on that statement. Editorguy (talk) 21:59, 15 May 2017 (EDT)