Talk:T'vaoan

Merging with Kig-Yar (closed)
Based on the Reclassify discussion and the distinction between the Skirmishers and the Jackals provided by Bungie, it appears that the Skirmisher is simply a different variant of the Kig-Yar species, thus treated as a race rather than a sub-species, and that the Jackal is the more common Kig-Yar race encountered throughout the Halo franchise. With that said, the Kig-Yar article should have sections dedicated to these two races which details the physical and behavioural differences, how they differ from one another in actual combat and how they were integrated into a common unit after the event of Reach. Note that the description confirms that the Skirmisher is not a rank within the Kig-Yar Rank Structure.

I am with you. If we are going to not merge this then we need to make a new page for Human male and Human FemaleGogeta21 23:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!

Support
- As per above.-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 12:55, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

- As per above. --Nerfherder1428 21:54, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

- You're opposing arguments are, without hoping to offend you, not legitimate. They are just a subspecies or breed or race of Kig-Yar. I'm not sure if that means the Kig-Yar are both races or not. Making this a separate article is somewhat, frankly, ignorant. The term "Skirmisher" isn't the name of their role but of their race. That's like making a separate article for Caucasians or Latinos under humanity. If the Skirmishers had a special rank, (ie. "Brawler" or something) I would agree. But as it is, the Skirmishers are just a race of Kig-Yar. I don't know if this means that a "Jackal" is a different race too, but both Jackals and Skirmishers are well and perfectly Kig-Yar. (Don't believe? See "FULL NAME" of the Skirmishers here) I didn't mean to shun any of your beliefs, I apologize if I did, but all I am saying is that your arguments for opposition are not accurate. Sorry! --Fluffball Gato 23:29, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * You're hiding behind "legitimacy" against commonsense logic. The Skirmishers, although they share the same species name as Jackals, are very different in appearance, behavior, and most importantly (as this is an encyclopedia of a video game-based universe) gameplay behavior. That merits them getting their own article. I don't know why you think that a rank would deserve an article but a subspecies would not. You're drawing an imaginary line there, but in reality, a Skirmisher is not a Jackal, and should have its own page separate from the Jackal. Furthermore, since you're trying to be technical with your argument, I'll be technical right back: a race and a subspecies are NOT the same thing, as has been argued probably five times on this page. But the point is - never mind whatever vocab words you're using (race? subspecies? legitimacy and accuracy?), a Skirmisher is a different thing from a Jackal and deserves a separate page. Flayer92 03:19, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree on that. I agree with everything you say except when you say that this is an encyclopedia for the Video Game. It is not. In fact I have friends who use this Wikia and don't even play the games! Also. I have friends that are very interested in the books. And when I asked them if they are excited for Halo 3: ODST the said "they made a Halo video game?!". And as Bungie has said on their forum. "We know people who have never even heard of the books, games, and comics and they only watch the show. We know people who have never heard of the books, games, and show and they have only read the comics etc.". And as Star Wars said "in an infinite Halo universe. Anything is possible". So the game is only one teeny-tiny part of the "Haloverse"!Gogeta21 18:48, May 3, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!!!


 * But the Skirmisher only appears in a game.

- As per my comment/reply given to failing Gruntijackal.外国 人 (7alk ) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

- If we don't, Africans, Chinese, British, Koreans, etc. all deserve their own article.Lekgolo 20:21, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't they? Considering cultural heritage, society etc? Warhead xTEAMx 21:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, they really don't, because they have nothing to do with Halo. Skirmishers do. 24.192.86.139 21:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I never actually checked....Lekgolo 22:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral
I think that, since they are the same species, the Skirmishers should have their own section in the Kig-Yar article, detailing differences between the more common Jackal etc. However, Bungie has stated this: "Skirmisher: The Jackal and Skirmisher are of the same species, with the larger, more heavily muscled specimens comprising grenadier-type units (Skirmishers) and the smaller, more lightly built specimens seeing deployment as dedicated ranger or sniper units (Jackals). This is a significant change from engagements prior to 2530 when mixed units were more common.". Because the Skrimishers are given a specific role in battle, and are a dedicated unit, they should be given their own article, but still be featured in the Kig-Yar article. Perhaps the Kig-Yar article should be changed to feature the Kig-Yar as a species, with sections depicting the physiology of the Jackels and the Skirmishers, as well as the difference between the two, and then made a dedicated article for the Jackals and the Skirmishers, which featured more than their physiology, such as role in combat, ways to fight, tactics used by the two etc. Warhead xTEAMx 14:09, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose
- Halo:Reach has not come out yet and we have a dearth of pre-release information regarding the Skirmisher as such, so I think it's too early to make this kind of call, as new information could force us to re-separate the articles. Until we get more information on their society, history, and bodily makeup, I'd say it's too early.Tuckerscreator 05:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

- Its a Sub-species, like Neanderthal are to Homo Sapien, but we do not merge the two races because they have their differences. Gruntijackal
 * Obviously your biology knowledge is beneath everyone who discussed in the previous section. >.>
 * Neanderthals are considered a sub-species because of many reasons; mainly of their bone structure and genetic makeup. The Skirmishers however, do not have such things as only their appearances (Those feathers might just be a helmet) have been altered. This is like saying Skirmishers and Jackals are two races of the Kig-Yar species just like how the Chinese and the British are two races of the human species (homo sapiens). With that said, your opposition fails epically.外国 人 (7alk ) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually British and Chinese are nationalities not races. --Jaguartalon 06:45, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, I just laughed to myself at that statement. --Fluffball Gato 07:24, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

- As per above. And above that. - Scot 113 16:52, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

- They are different enough to get their own article, surely. Oh, and Subtank -Ascension-: Homo neanderthalensis isn't considered a sub-species of Homo Sapiens, but as one of the numerous branches of Homo Erectus, which Sapiens also originates from (This makes the two "cousins" is a taxonomical sense). "Race" is a meaningless term in genetics, as the difference in DNA between anyone is 1% (no matter who they are), thus you and Subtank are two different races because you are two different people.--  Fore  run  ner  20:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think Subtank said anything about Homo Sapiens. But whatever. You apparently don't understand that Bungie has already stated that both Jackals and Skirmishers are the SAME species: Kig-Yar. Whichever way you want to put it, they are one species. There are no sub-species, or cousins, or anything. By definition, that makes them two breeds/races. Period. It doesn't matter if one has seven legs. Bungie has stated it is a Kig-Yar and we're going to have to move it on the Kig-Yar page. If we want to instead make the Kig-Yar page link to two articles on the races (Jackal and Skirmisher...and we don't) then whatever. But neither race is superior enough to hog the page to themselves.
 * And you're technically wrong Forerunner. Though race may be nearly impossible by today's standards to derive strictly from the genotype of an organism, it has almost everything to do with standard Mendelian genetics and heredity (observing the pheotype that results from said DNA). As heredity and the links between Jackals and Skirmishers is actually what we're talking about right now, your statement of irrelevance is, in itself, irrelevent. =D --Nerfherder1428 22:11, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Show me the source. -- 7h3 Ma573r Chi3f   (5par7an 117)   (J0hn)   (Ma573r Chi3f P377y 0ffic3r)  12:39, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * sigh* Straight from Bungie.net: http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=enemies&cid=24609. Let's check our facts before we all run in to the room kicking and screaming our opinions at each other.--Nerfherder1428 22:27, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * But we have to wait until most of the users here know alot about Halo Reach (about 2011). Oh and Subtank don't just merge it right away because your an admin that voted for it, so don't merge it until we have enough evidence. > Master  Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 16:50, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Forerunner - Get it right it is Homo Sapien Neaderthalensis, and ''Homo Sapien Sapiens. ''Thus they are both subspiecies, or cousins of each other. Nerfherder1428 - You are right, they are both Kig-Yar, but it could be like what I said to Forerunner. It could be Kig-Yar (something) for Jackals, and Kig-Yar (something else) for skirmishers. Also like what shade said, we should wait for mor information, because if we find out that us who belive that they are cousins are right, then we will have to waste time reseparating them. There is far to many other projects to waste time on a preemptive correction that in the end could be wrong. -- A random know it all Halo fan


 * Way too early to do so. We should wait until the game comes out, then we could study them more.--Shade  16:47, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

- They are nothing like the Jackals. And if you merge this page I will request a merge on Mgalekgolo to Lekgolo, SAND TARP to Sandtrap, Pit Stop to The Pit, Boundless to Snowbound and Epilouge to Epitaph. 7h3 Ma573r Chi3f  (5par7an 117)   (J0hn)   (Ma573r Chi3f P377y 0ffic3r)  16:41, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

- Never mind whether or not it is a sub-species. It is very distinctive in appearance, behavior, and gameplay role to the standard Jackal. Remember also that we have separate pages for the Lekgolo and the Mgalekgolo, and even more damning, separate articles for each form of the Flood, although they are all technically part of the same species. People searching for information on the Skirmisher should NOT be redirected to information on Jackals. It's asinine to compare this to having separate articles on different races of humanity. This is a HALO Wiki, and in the Halo games and universe, there isn't a significant difference between blacks and whites in overall role, for example, but there is clearly a very large difference between plain vanilla Jackals and the Skirmisher sub-race. Flayer92 18:41, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just like you said if this can be merged then why not those pages said above? And maps like SAND TARP are just baisicly the same map with differences. Master   Chief   Petty   Officer  ( Personal Favorite ). 19:04, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it strikes me as just a really stupid idea. This is a Halo wiki. The purpose is to go in depth on Halo topics. In Halo gameplay, a Skirmisher is very different from a Jackal and so it deserves its own page. I don't think people should have to go tab down to the bottom of the Jackal article to find information on them. If combat ranks of Jackals are notable enough to each have their own page, then certainly a subspecies deserves one too. Saying the Skirmisher page should be merged into the Jackal one is like saying the ODST page should be merged into the Marines page. 24.192.86.139 21:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

- I sort of agree, but then again, the Skirmisher is very different from normal Jackals in a lot of ways. It may not be a different rank, but they obviously behave and look very different from the more commonly seen Kig-yar. In my opinion, the Kig-Yar article should have a subsection for the Skirmisher race detailing the racial differences but the way I see the Skirmisher, as an enemy, is basically similar to a different role, much like Kig-Yar Majors or Kig-Yar Snipers. True, those are officially called "ranks" while the Skirmisher isn't, but simply because they are so different in appearance, behavior and tactics I think their role is synonymous to a different "rank". Like Flayer92 above said, it's not really about the being a different race or not, but their radically different gameplay role as an enemy. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 14:57, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

It's been almost 4 months people, how long will the voting last? Apparently until we support -_- --<font color="Blue">Shade  10:57, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Merge with Kig-Yar? (CLOSED)
I understand that this is a new and exciting addition and all, but I don't think it should have its own page. According to Bungie.net, the Skirmisher is still a Kig-Yar. If this is to be separate, we should split up "Banshee" and "Heretic Banshee" again.--Fluffball Gato 03:00, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Someone should also clarify to whether this is an actual sub-species or just a race...<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 03:42, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

 * Even if it's not a different subspecies, the Skirmishers fill a different role than regular Kig-Yar. We still have articles for different roles and ranks like Kig-Yar Ranger, Kig-Yar Sniper, Kig-Yar Minor, etc. Thus, this deserves its own article even if it isn't a different species.--<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 06:31, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Per Jugus, different rank and role than other Kig-Yar. CoH/Member List#Field Masters| Field ]] UoH/Member List#Colonel| Master ]] Spartansniper  4  50  16:20, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Per Jugus; that's the most solid reasoning I've seen on this page. COD

Untitled. Luckily, Fluffball Gato made it a Title.
I actually don't think they look that much different from regular Kig-Yar. They're bodies are obviously the same with heads that seem more similar to H3 jackals than anything. They do seem to have shorter snouts and maybe sharper teeth, but not by much. The noticeable difference lies in the bushy, feather protrusions on their head rather than the traditional spines. Does anyone think this is more of a racial, regional thing more than an entirely different species? Nerfherder1428 00:03, January 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Cousins of the jackal" suggests they are further apart than just racial. Either the Skirmisher is a subspecies of Kig-yar, or they are species within a genus. Think of it like cousins of humanity. The nearest is Homo Sapiens Idaltu, while another close cousin is the Neanderthal.--  Fore  run  ner  00:20, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

We've always known that jackals had a bird like structure and probably evolved from something like a large bird. I think the skirmisher is a less intelligent, less evolved, and more aggressive version of the Jackals. The fact that they are much more like a bird just shows thet. Maybe they aren't extinct and are actually just a Covanant light infantry version of the Brutes. FatalSnipe117 21:09, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oooh, a new Covenant species! I'm eager to learn about their background and civilization (If they have one). I think we really overlook the fact that they're COUSINS of the Kig-Yar. I want to know how two intelligent races are able to co-exist and evolve alongside each other on the same planet. Are they economic like the Kig-Yar? Are they completely extinct, or just their troops? Think of it like this; What if Chimps were intelligent and lived alongside humans? Introducing a new species of Covenant with an unknown background is major, especially since we've never heard about them. If we had heard about them, I'd expect it to be in the novel "Halo: The Fall of Reach" or "The Cole Protocol" if anything. -Manzaross, the unoffical official Halologist

I'm excited too, Manzaross! If I had to guess, I'd say that they have a warlike, tribal culture and are much more aggressive than the Kig-Yar, but we'll see. I'm also interested to see how they fit into the Covenant hierarchy. The Elites are still my faves though! -User:Webspidrman 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it just me, or do they look like monster chicken-dinosaurs on steroids? H91 20:40, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

I think they look like velociraptors from Jurassic Park 3, you know with the feathers on top of the head, snout, muscularity, color, they work in packs for crying out loud! SalemElliot 20:22, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Weapons?
I did not see them holding any wepons in the picture.


 * You can see a blurry outline of the Type-25 DE Pistol. CommanderTony

ehhh the skirmishers look differnt i meen u can definitly see the resebleince but still they also look like dinos in a way
 * Well considering they are "Cousins" of the Kig-yar race, they could be a less evolved race considering their appearance and they prefer CQB style fighting which is something mostly any Jackal would avoid against a SPARTAN-II or a SPARTAN-III. This could explain the Carbine-Needler hybrid which in my opinion, is a crude hybrid the Skirmishers created to better suite their own purpose and since this design could be against the Covenant Heirarchy, The Prophets would banned this (not saying its canon, just saying). If you read about the Brute Spiker, you would see a small hint of my piont. The Brutes created the Spiker as their own crude invention but the only reason why I think it wasn't banned is because the Prophets would not want their own army of Brutes to berserk against them. Also please watch your spelling and sign your posts.--ASEC 03:14, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

They are actually shown in recent screenshots that they are weilding Plasma Pistols and Needlers. Halo 111777

Skirmishers wiped out
Perhaps we should send a e-mail to Bungie and see what they think would be appropiate after all we are doing a wiki on thier workJay96 16:15, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that they where wipped out but I do think that the Covenant kept them held back to help protect the Kig-Yar home world. Massacer.

It says in the article Bungie hinted that by the end of the battle of Reach the skirmishers were wiped out can anyone find proof of this such as a forum post a recent video interview or maybe something out of gameinformer, and if not it should be removed. Xxxjeffxxx 01:48, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

I found where they said it but I'm not very good at editing I have the link could someone put it where it needs to go. http://www.edge-online.com/features/halo-reach-tales-of-the-fall Xxxjeffxxx 05:45, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

They also mention this in the newly released article from Gamereactor, and even though Bungie did need to come up with a reason for not having them in any other games does anyone think it makes little sense that every single one was killed off at Reach? I would imagine there had to be some somewhere else at the time.Kalicokaiju 22:37, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

POssible that a cataclysmic event happened at hom, destroying them, and thus leaving those on reach as the last ones. Or, they might be newcomers to the covenant, and seceded? ~Enlightment~ ~Fighting Vandalism and Watching Unregistereds~ 08:00, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

I think the implication is that almost all Skirmishers were used at Reach, and that the process of its fall saw them wiped out by humanity's spirited defence. --  Administrator  Specops306  -   Qur'a 'Morhek   12:09, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

That's one way of putting it, "spirited" lol. What I could never understand was why the covenant seemed to find it easier to smash through earths defences, then reach, even though earth has even stronger defences? you'd think covenant losses would be catistrophic, but they don't appear to be. ~Enlightment~ ~Fighting Vandalism and Watching Unregistereds~ 13:21, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Fall of Reach happened before the Covenant made their way to Earth.Warhead xTEAMx 12:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

It is logical that the femals and children of them are on theire homeworld Eyan so only the entire skirmisher troops are wiped out. DP

I think that maybe the Skirmishers have a much smaller population than the Jackals, hence why they haven't been seen so far. They're rare and they're saved as special military units for the most crucial operations. If the Skirmisher units were small and saved until Reach, they might have suffered such heavy casualties that they weren't suitable for deployment again and still rebuilding their losses at the time of the Halo, Earth, and Ark battles. Flayer92 04:00, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Spartan 2095 22:11, February 1, 2010 (UTC) Well, my guess is that they weren't wiped out. Some may have escaped Reach and there were prolly some still on Eayn or travelling the stars as pirates, considering the race.

I agree with Flayer92 there would be way to many for them to be wiped out even at a huge battle like Reach.Disciple of the Covenant 22:17, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think that, as the above statement by Flayer92, that all the Skirmishers were deployed, however I think that as they haven't appeared after it, they might thought that the losses was so heavy that they didn't wanna be in The Covenant anymore, and that they left, and later turned to their ways of piracy. As the Jackals, and presumably the Skirmishers were mercenaries, I guess they didn't agree with the Covenant religion, so it's not hard to imagine they left, altough this is just specualtions. H91 19:40, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Doubtful that the Covenant would ever let them leave like that. If they turned against them than the Covenant would wipe them out, same way they did the Heretics. If the military units of Skirmishers were decimated than they'd probably just be trying to recover afterwards and not go into battle, and the war only lasts a couple more years, so it's logical they wouldn't have enough time to be ready for action again.

Also, has anyone considered the fact that these guys might have actually been in a lot of the battles in the past? Maybe there were no human survivors in the battles they'd fought in before, so there would be no reports of them existing yet. And if there were any, maybe ONI assumed people were getting confused and were really just talking about Jackals.

'''My theory is similar to some of the others. They had their ranks crippled during the Battle of Reach so they took time to rebuild. To make up for this loss of manpower, the Covenant may have decided to employ the Yanme'e in a military role as stand-ins for the Skirmishers until they regained their strength.--Redlightning312 01:09, August 7, 2010 (UTC)'''

I agree with the statement above. Evidence is the Yanme'e were engineers before the Battle of Reach-NotaAnon

Sub-Species?
Based on the quote above, it seems that the Kig-yar species is composed of two race; the Jackals and the Skirmishers. With that said, they are not really sub-species. It is more of a differentiation in physical traits between the two Kig-yar races. Take us, humans, for example. Each race (Chinese, German, Indian, etc) has different physical traits... which lead to several stereotypes... anyway, what do you think?- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 02:16, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

it's actually true, they are the same race, bungie said it, the pages for Skirmishers and Jackals should be merged 159.250.29.4 17:22, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it should be merged and the sub-species factor be noted on the Kig-yar page --<font color=#FF0000>&lt;&lt;LOMI, <font color=#CC0000>The Lord of Fanon. <font color=#770000>Praise My Name, <font color=#440000>And Behold All My Holy Deeds&gt;&gt; 22:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

They should be merged. Skirmishers and Jackals are the same species just different races. That above quote proves this. OniLink 04:45, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

Reclassify the article?
It seems more and more like the Skirmishers are not really so much of a different species from the Jackals, not even a subspecies anymore, just big muscular Jackals wearing masks and feather headdresses from the looks of it.

So should Skirmisher be reclassified as a rank, rather than a species?


 * I think it should be a completely different species, not sub-species. The jackals aren't really the main species. They come from the same family, but they are a different species. For example, you don't say that tigers and lions are the same species. Teh lolz! <span style="color: lime; font-family: Halo3,Papyrus; font-size: 12pt;">Bionicle+Lotr 17:58, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * And no, they aren't big muscular Jackals wearing masks. The feathers and stuff are all natural. Teh lolz! <span style="color: lime; font-family: Halo3,Papyrus; font-size: 12pt;">Bionicle+Lotr 18:01, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

The article says that Jackals and Skirmishers are of the same species. That's closer than lions and tigers. It's more like chihuahuas and Dobermans...two very different looking dogs, but the same species.


 * So BAM! I agree with unregistered, nameless contributor here since he has a legitimate source. So can we really consider this now?--Nerfherder1428 14:27, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Unsigned unregistered contributor is I Flayer92 16:51, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer they stay as separate articles. I mean, if they were just Kig-yar, then why bother mentioning them at all? --  Fore  run  ner  17:29, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, chihuahua's and dobermans are both dogs, but they're different species of dogs. We don't call one "dog" and the other one "dog sub-species". One can't be the master racce. This is the same with Kig-Yar and Skirmishers. we know they're related, but I don't think we can sum up that Kig-Yar are the master race. This is just like saying one race of humans is a sub-species of another race, which we never do in real life. Teh lolz! <span style="color: lime; font-family: Halo3,Papyrus; font-size: 12pt;">Bionicle+Lotr 21:59, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, would they be considered as a race or a sub-species? Based on the description released by Bungie, it appears they are showing the physical differences between the two organisms and as such suggests that they are more of a race and not a species. But, again... I'm no biologist.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 22:12, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you're wrong. They're the exact same species, Canis familiarus. They are not separate species because you can breed a chihuahua and a Doberman. In this case Kig-Yar would be the blanket race term like the word dog, and Jackal and Skirmisher would be sub-sets like the Doberman and the chihuahua. I'm not proposing a deletion or a merger with the Jackal page, just that Skirmisher be reclassified as a rank, like Sniper or Major. It even sounds like a rank - Covenant race names tend to describe their place in Covenant society (Prophets, Elites, Engineers, Grunts) or just how humans perceive them (Brutes, Drones, Hunters, Jackals). Skirmisher really doesn't do either of these. As a combat rank name, on the other hand, it would describe their role perfectly.


 * So both the Kig-Yar and skirmishers are different breeds/races of a species that are unknown, right? Teh lolz! <span style="color: lime; font-family: Halo3,Papyrus; font-size: 12pt;">Bionicle+Lotr 21:39, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not that the species itself is unknown...they're just different forms of it. There's no dog that's simply just a plain dog. Kig-yar could be the term we're looking for to cover the whole species, with Jackals and Skirmishers being two subsets underneath it. 24.192.86.139 06:00, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly! Imagine if an Elite was Fighting a war against Humanity, and while fighting, saw some ginger kid walking down the street, or saw a some Giant Musclely Africans walk down the street! or saw a Chinese fallah walking around. would he go home and have an internet Debate on Covenantopedia to decide whether the pages:

Little ginga Kid, Giant Muscle-Bound Africans, and Weird-eyed Chinese fallahs should have the same page? its bullshit! its completely different! Dont merge the pages!


 * Look Bioniclepluslotr, you seem to be extremely confused. Kig-Yar is the name of the species that both Jackals and Skirmishers belong to. That is a FACT, delivered by Bungie. By the modern definition, that would make Jackals and Skirmishers separate races rather than separate species, or sub-species, or however you want to put it. Neither is subordinate to the other one and there is absolutely no hint or mentioning of either being superior at ALL. Flayer and the other guys had several good points and analogies that make sense. Consider the Jackal like a Doberman and a Skirmisher like a Chihuahua. They are both of the same species (Perosus latrunculus, i.e. Kig-Yar), but are so different that they are additionally classified into different breeds/races. "Jackal" and "Skirmisher" are the very informal name for those two races among the UNSC. It is unknown how the two are differentiated among the Covenant, but it's assumed they are both just called by the species name, Kig-Yar. Better yet, perhaps the Covenant were just able to overcome the ancient enemy that is racism even though it obviously still plagues humanity well in to 2552. =D Nerfherder1428 22:06, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, are we all in agreement that they are races and not subspecies?- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 22:15, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Nerfherder1428, i don't think "overcome racism" would be the best choice of words for the Covenant, i mean maybe they did overcome racism at a species level, but not at an inter-species level, just see the differences of how grunts and elites are treated... @Subtank, at least i am--Fipas 09:15, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was a joke Fipias. But yes, I also agree with the proposal.--Nerfherder1428 13:19, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Hasn't this been turned down several times?--<span style="background:Black;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><font color="Blue">Shade  19:12, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

I think "Kig-Yar" should have a Disu Page like Pete Stacker (Marine) and Pete Stacker (Voice Actor) so if someone looked for Kig-Yar they would have the option of: Kig-yar (Jackals) and Kig-yar (Skirmishers)JimMy pAz Br07 05:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm rather opposed to having more disambiguation pages on this Wiki. You already get to one for trying to go to the Hornet, the Ghost, the Scorpion, and a lot of other ones like that where you have one that is obviously predominant. How about it defaults to the Jackal but there can be a "were you looking for the Skirmisher" thing on top. Flayer92 22:13, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Black jackals (Halo: CE)
Might they be the black jackals from Halo: CE? Skirmisher?. Or might this be the explanation for them?

it's most likely coincidential, but interesting 66.59.49.88 19:50, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they are Skirmishers. Skirmishers looked more like Crow-like aliens.--<span style="background:Black;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><font color="Blue">Shade  23:37, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I was playing halo:ce recently and thought I killed a skirmisher once. Benamericana457 16:52, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

This new pic pretty much confirms it: The black ones from Halo:CE were the ones that used a helmet. --SPARTAN-122 19:58, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

New weapons shown in ViDoc
I'm pretty sure I saw Skirmishers with Covenant Carbines and Beam Rifles, if we want to add those to the weapons list for this page.

Also unrelated, but I've been thinking about their Covenant species name and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be Kig-something (say, Kig-Yan, for example). Flayer92 17:19, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Skirmishers are called Kig-Yar, see Halo: Reach section on bungie.net

Link: http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=enemies&cid=24609

Warhead xTEAMx 12:34, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

The Skirmisher was actually using a needler rifle, not a carbine.StalkerGrunt117 17:25, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

They also were using plasma pistol's,and they dont use beam rifles there a sub species specializing in close combat


 * Those are Needle Rifles (not Needler Rifles btw). <font face="Comic Sans MS"> 3vil  D3m0n   <font face="Comic Sans MS"> Don't worry, I'm not really evil... 07:34, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

oh, sorry.StalkerGrunt117 14:36, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Sharquoi
is it at all possible that the skirmisher's covenant name is Sharquoi?--Soul reaper 07:35, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. I'll reiterate this once again, Bungie says that the Skirmisher's covenant name is Kig-Yar. Just like the Jackal. There's no differentiation.--Nerfherder1428 22:40, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Besides, do you think a slightly buffer Jackal would be "extremely dangerous?"--Fluffball Gato 07:28, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

I highly doubt that the Skirmisher would be extremely dangerous due to the Bungie ViDoc where two Skirmishers are each killed by a single bullet to the head. They may be just more dangeorous than the shielded Jackals but not more so the Snipers. Gruntijackal

Where did you get "Sharquoi" from? Just throwing random words out there?

--Manzaross 2.0 18:52, March 25, 2010

Manzaross, the name Sharquoi comes "Conversations from the Universe" where an Elite proposes using them once the Human homeworld is discovered. But there is nothing in Halo 2 or 3 that can be conclusively called one and Bungie is mum on the subject. Anyway, since the Skirmishers appear in Reach, before the discovery of Earth, it would be impossible for them to be the Sharquoi, since Earth has not been discovered yet and the Elite's conversations takes place post-Reach.Tuckerscreator 22:14, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Geneticly Modified
It is possible that Skirmishers are geneticaly modified as the covenent where more than capable of doing so. Jackes would have been a sutible candidite because brutes and elites where to high status and there where way to many drones and grunts. Jackles are also more resiliant than grunts but they can still be killed if a rebellion was started unlike if elites or brutes where used.

i was thinking of that Alertfiend 23:00, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

To let you know, the theory that these are Jackals has been turned down many times--<span style="background:Black;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><font color="Blue">Shade  20:24, April 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually Shade--and really, it pains me to have to reiterate this again--it is not a theory. Bungie has stated specifically that both Jackals AND Skirmishers are the same species: KIG-YAR. Skirmishers are KIG-YAR. Jackls are also KIG-YAR. That would, in fact, make them two races of the KIG-YAR species. So you're wrong...they are kind of the same.--Nerfherder1428 00:42, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

@Shade OMG if you don't believe something in the article LOOK TO SEE IF THERE IS A REFERENCE. And click on that and see if the source is Legitimate. If it is than problem solved, if there isn't post it on here! And in this case there IS a reference so go to the article and click on the link and read it for yourself.!Gogeta21 23:43, April 27, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!

Hey, maybe you can save your breath. Nerfherder talked to me about it, so you don't need to state it again =P.

"if you don't believe something in the article LOOK TO SEE IF THERE IS A REFERENCE."

Urrm, the article said nothing about it, and I was referring to how the guy who started the section called them genetically modified Jackals... So there was really no need to say all that Gogeta21.--<span style="background:Black;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><font color="Blue">Shade  20:30, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

They're probably female Jackals. --Kluutak 20:06, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Images
In the picture on the halo reach page with some Skirmishers, the one in front has three legs!


 * Must have overlapped another one.

Source?
The third trivia section says that it's been hinted that Skirmishers were wiped out at the Fall of Reach. Regardless of whether or not they were, the source it cites says nothing like this at all. Since it's remained like this for months now, is there something I missed in there that says that, or do I have permission to change it? ''Tuckerscreator' 18:40, June 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * To avoid any potential future issue, just tag a Fact template at the end of the sentence.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 19:15, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Rank
Guys when oppourtunity presents itself weneed to look into the Skirmisher ranks weve seen green ones and heavily armoured ones which means sooner or later we will have to to about thier ranks. theyve done them for every other species featured inthe game


 * I'm sure that was going to be part of this pages development as at the top it says "This article has new content coming soon." Since the game isn't out yet, there isn't any need to worry about it right now.--Skywaver 02:02, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Capabilities?
I haven't seen it discussed or seen any confirmed info...so what exactly are the Skirmisher's capabilities in gameplay? As far as I can tell, they're probably fast, aggressive, and pretty good shots. They're an intermediate enemy between Grunts and Jackals on the easy end and Elites and Brutes on the hard one. They're probably as close as you'll get to fighting a human enemy in the game: relying more on agility and shooting skill than brute force or energy shields.

But there's a couple questions which could have a pretty big influence on how they play. How well do they use cover? Out in the open these would probably be very easy just to pick off with headshots. Do they throw grenades? That would make them a threat when you're under good cover or in a vehicle, and if they don't, they'll be very easy to kill with either of those methods. Can they use melee attacks? If they don't, a reliable strategy would probably be to rush them and beat them down. How agile are they? Can they run faster than you, do they do evasive rolls like Elites? The more agile, the more difficult headshots and grenades would be to use. And just how much damage can they take? Headshots bring them down instantly, but how many bullets to the chest does it take to kill a Skirmisher?And do they have any kind of special abilities or equipment we haven't seen yet?

In short, what exactly do Skirmishers do in the game? Flayer92 17:41, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

Skirmishers are much faster than you(they easily outrun you even when you use Sprint or drive Revenants), are capable of Evading and even using Holograms, but are incapable of meleeing or throwing grenades(in game, in universe they would probably be as strong as a human or stronger judging by how strong Jackals are and how Skirmishers are stronger than Jackals). They are definitely more resilient than Jackals(on higher difficulties, a shotgun blast at close range does not kill a Skirmisher). Higher-ranking ones use shoulder-mounted small energy shields. I would say that contrary to what people thought pre-game, Skirmishers are in fact very intellegent and not at all primal or unevolved. They strafe, divide into groups to flank you, leap into cover, protect their heads with shields, and alternate usage of the shields so as not to tire one out. On Legendary, they are just as lethal as Brutes. If thy had been given the ability to melee or throw grenades or even hijack as they doubtless would be able to in-universe, they would easily become one of the most hated foes.

Colonies
It's stated that the Kig-Yar were spacefaring long before the covenant. It is also said that less than a third of Kig-yar still live on their home planet. Perhaps the skirmishers are the Kig-Yar who remained in the planet and over time became a sub-species. This would be evidenced by how they are bulkier than a normal jackal, which would make sense considering the higher gravity present on a planet compared to an asteroid. This happens to humans who stay in space for extended lengths of time. Over generations this could cause the lighter build to become an inherited trait. (Think the fat people on Wall-E.)

Female Kig-yar?
In Halo Contact Harvest the writer describes Chur'R mut as having dark-brown callusces on her skin (skirmisher skin?) and having a hunched-like appearence (skirmishers seem to always look hunched in screenshots and videos).

Does anyone else think they could be female kig-yar? Tentacletornado 18:24, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nope, not at all. Read the posts above on this talk page. Skirmishers are simply 'specialists' of the kig-yar. The larger-sized specimens of kig-yar are more likely to be selected to enter this specialist group of close-combat skirmishers.


 * The new update on intel of ordnace and intel on bungie.net will prove confirm just about everything on this talk page.


 * http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=enemies&cid=24609


 * Click the link. And the world as you know it will never be the same. Ever again.


 * --SolidLemonsoup(ahaha) 13:49, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Combat Evolved Skirmishers
In the trivia section, it states that Skirmishers appear in Halo: Combat Evolved. The screenshot that claimed to be a skirmisher is a male jackal, not a Skirmisher. The Jackals with helmets are females, shown by the caullosed skin on their heads and elbows. I know this because I've spent considerable amount of time messing around with a devmode camera in the game, and was able to "enter" a Jackal's helmet. Also, I never recall seeing the helmetless Jackals outside of the Halo custom Edition Modified Campaign levels. --75.88.73.229 09:47, 3 January 2011 (EST)

About their Numbers
We have to take what Bungie said in those interviews with a grain of salt. It's obvious that they weren't bothering trying to come up with an explanation as to why the Skirmishers weren't in the other games.

It's similar to how they shrugged off the question as to why the M7 SMG wasn't in the game. They said that they were still "in the factories," even though we know that the M7 SMG's were in use decades prior to Reach. Missing Mandible 21:54, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

New "theory"
I know this has been discussed A LOT, however, I wanted to just use my knowledge of genetics to explain, has some of us know Neanderthals have about 99.5% of the same DNA we have. The differences between humans and neanderthals are not as large as the ones between "Jackals" and Skirmishers but they are notable. As Chimpanzees have around 94%(newer findings: Chimpanzee DNA) of the same DNA. The Skirmishers have differences but not to such a point where they are a "subspecies" or a different species, they would need large physical and genetic differences for that.

Also, I doubt that they are "extinct", even if Bungie said as such, a more reasonable explanation would be that they were pulled out of the conflict because of the fact that their population was at such a small number that continued conflict can actually can cause more than the decimation of the Skirmishers but bring the moral of the Jackals down. Perhaps cause an uprising. Which wouldn't be too good, seeing that the Great Schism greatly weakened the Covenant Empire Steahl 19:43, 6 February 2012 (EST)

This would be a good theory if it weren't confirmed they were extinct, remember that Bungies word is law. Jac0bBau3r1995

Organization?
Since Skirmishers are a subspecies of Kig-Yar, shouldn't this page be similar to a species page instead of a Covenant rank page? For example, the Path Kethona Forerunners are a subspecies of Forerunners and their page has a species layout. NightHammer (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2014 (EDT)

Name use
Am I the only one who considers it sort of improper to use the race's name "T'vaoan" in the titles of the Skirmisher military ranks/classes? For instance, consider this sentence from the recently retitled T'vaoan Minor article: "The T'vaoan Minor is the lowest rank of the T'vaoans, a branch of shock troops consisting of larger Kig-Yar." But the T'vaoans aren't a branch of shock troops, they're the subspecies of which the shock troops known as Skirmishers consisted. While it makes sense to use the formal name T'vaoan in this article, since it was refocused on the subspecies rather than the military unit, it would be more natural to retain the "Skirmisher" epithet in the military ranks, given the subtle but extant distinction between the names. Hence, the name Skirmisher would be used to refer to the troops fielded by the Covenant, while "T'vaoan" would be applied to individuals of the subspecies in contexts independent of the Covenant (e.g. Tek, Chol Von). It's no different from the distinction between "Human" and "Marine". --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 09:08, 13 April 2014 (EDT)


 * Also, my understanding is that they are still considered as Kig-Yar. Their current name, T'vaoan, is just a reference of their place of origin, T'vao.— subtank   11:12, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * They are definitely still Kig-Yar; Mortal Dictata refers to the Jackals as "common Kig-Yar" in comparison. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 11:26, 13 April 2014 (EDT)


 * As per above. NightHammer (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * - Yeah.-- 11:26, 13 April 2014 (EDT)

Commandos
Rereading mortal dictata and it's description of T'vaoan kig-yar ("Male Kig-Yar from T'vao had much heavier upper body plumage than other Kig-Yar. Females from T'vao had a ruff of feathers on their heads and necks instead of scales") got me to notice that minors and majors possess heavy plumage on their arms, while commandos only have feathers on their heads. Could it be that the skirmisher commandos are female? Just a thought.
 * I believe that the lack of feathers on their bodies appears to be the result of additional armor that covers their feathers. -- NightHammer (talk)(contribs) 00:21, 5 January 2016 (EST)