Talk:Imperial Admiral

The Supreme Commander and Imperial Admiral are the same rank. Many speculate that the imperial admiral commands larger fleets but the truth is that Xytan 'Jar Wattinree unoficially,without permission from the Prophets,combined the two seperate fleets out of pure rebellion without a promotion in rank.It is most likely that the Imperial Admiral had originally commanded a single fleet as did the Arbiter before the Great Schism and generally it could be possible that Arbiter would also rebell and combine two fleets to creat an almost full scale rebellion against the prophets had he have been in the same exact situation.Also, if a Halo fan studies the book Halo Ghost Of Onyx more carefully, they will actually notice on page 239 it said "THE FORMER SUPREME COMMANDER" in a paragraph near the bottom of the page (If you can't find it read the whole page over and slowly).The word "FORMER" is refering to some who also had the same status as Xytan Jar Wattinree (Also it infers that supreme commander and imperial admiral are the same). In other words it is saying that someone (Most likely the Arbiter) held the same rank as imperial admiral/supreme commander.The Halo Graphic Novel's story-line itself is cannon, though when I say story-line I'm excluding the imaging to go along ad blend with the story.The imaging is'nt really trust worthy cannon.One prime example is the New Mombassa story plot.The story-line refering to the event prior to Halo2 is correct but the images of what it looked like is generally not cannon.The imaging for the elites in the plot and theme were graphically incorrect as they had pink skin.Even the weapons in that story were almost totally different.Pink plasma swords and plasma rifles that shoot green beams oposed to the white blue plasma sword and blue full automatic machine gun style plasma rifles that shoot lightning-blue bolts of plasma is totally different.Generally the point is that people believe that the Halo Graphic Novel is the source to look at for the subject.What many don't realize is that the artist were just simply being creative.The primary point is that people believe that just because they saw the supreme commander in violet armour that the imperial admiral and supreme commander are different.Just like the authors used creativity to create the elites and covenant weaponry in Sunrise Over New Mombassa they just simply used creativity for the FORMER supreme commander (Just to make him look fancier and more awe inspiring) in Last Voyage of The Infinite Succor therefore ruining any true cannon for what a supreme commander might of actually look like.Also notice that the last image of the so called Imperial Admiral was a game mod and possibly a custom made multiplayer model.

The Imperial Admiral's armor is silver/gold and has dozens of golden glyphs that show a high ranking elite.

The proof of the fact that supreme commander and imperial admiral are generally the same is the definition of the word "FORMER." Keep in mind it said on page 239 of Halo Ghost of Onyx it said "This happened before the "FORMER" supreme commander of fleet of particular justice."

Definition of former, (I looked it up in my microsoft dictionary by internet and pasted the definition down on this article without any changes what so ever)

Former-Having been something: having had the name or status specified during an earlier period. Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

or

being the first mentioned of two (distinguished from latter): The former suggestion was preferred to the latter. dictionary.com

WARNING-Dictionary .com has had a few bad reputation,I got mine straight off a highly advanced computer,Oh, and I double checked by checking it in an actually Library Dictionary just yesterday.Halo3 03:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3

User Halo3 - Argument Summary
In an effort to make Halo3 arguement a little less confusing I've tried to seek out his arguements. Correct me if I'm wrong but you think the rank Supreme Commander and Imperial Admiral are the same because:


 * 1) One of the main reasons that people think this is a seperate rank is that in the Halo Graphic Novel (HGN) the supreme commander was in violet armour which is different from the imperial admiral armor which is described as being silver/gold and has dozens of golden glyphs that show a high ranking elite. However, the artists who illustrated HGN have been shown to use alot of artistic creativity and not followed Bungie Canon.  Therefore HGN images cannot be used as evidence of a seperate rank of Imperial Admiral.
 * 2) During the Covenant Civil War Xytan 'Jar Wattinree combined two seperate fleets to fight Covenant forces. He did so without a promotion in rank as being in rebellion against the Covenant and the its Prophets.
 * 3) On page 239 of Halo:Ghost Of Onyx there is a reference to the former Supreme Commander, "This happened before the former supreme commander of fleet of particular justice.". The MS dictionary states that Former is defined as, Former-Having been something: having had the same name or status specified during an earlier period.   Therefore Xytan 'Jar Wattinree was a former Supreme Commander and his rank never changed because as shown above he could not have been given a promotion by the Covenant as he was in rebellion against the Covenant and the its Prophets

Counter Argument

 * This is a logical fallacy; you're saying that since there is insufficient proof to their being different, there is proof to their being the same.
 * Why would he need a promotion in rank? If he is, as the page says, the leader of the entire Covenant fleet, he can put together the entire Covenant fleet if he wants to.
 * What are you dribbling about? If he's called a former Supreme Commander at one point but not called a former Imperial Admiral at another time, then it's more likely that he's a former Supreme Commander because he used to be a Supreme Commander, but is not a former Imperial Admiral because he is at this moment an Imperial Admiral, because he was promoted.

Even if they are different it should'nt be said they are higher in rank within the covenants actuall non rebellious ranking system as it might not even exist for elites in the covenant because it is'nt allowed and plus,as I said, the fact that elites mentioned themselves that they believed Xytan there only source for survival supports the fact that 1. Xytan joined a fleet out of rebellion 2. Xytan was promoted out of rebellion because as I said the elite believed him there best source of survival and Imperial Admiral is possibly an unofficial non-covenant rank that does'nt exist within the covenant,so they elected him with a possibly made up rank as supreme ruler or should I say Imperial Admiral.If your going to go ahead and say that the Imperial Admiral is higher, than at least say it is a rebellious rank and is higher out of rebellion.It's like the Heretics, the rebel elites thought that a specific elite was there best source for survival so ,just like Xytan was promoted, the elites promoted the Hereitic leader to absolute commander of the so-called "Illegal Organization" therefore just like that heretic rank Imperial Admiral is an unoficial rank that is rebellious,unofficial,and heretic like.It is possible that Xytan held the rank as supreme commander of only one specific fleet until The Great Schism, this is probably when the elites, just like the heretic elites elected the heretic leader to his absolute commander status, elected Xytan to the made up rebellion rank of Imperial Admiral as they, just like the heretic elites thought Sesa Refumee as a fit leader for survival, though Xytan best and most certain for survival.Halo3 03:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3 G ü é ß Ł ¥ -∏ é Ґ ∫ ø ñ ¥ -† ħ î <font color="#00ff00">И <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">¥  21:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Votes for MERGE

 * Merge As per above -- Halo3
 * NO MERGE Insufficient evidence to their being the same. Guesty-Persony-Thingy Early 90's to March 31, 2007. RIP. 20:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * NO MERGE As per GPT. <font color="#007700">Contact me · [[Image:MA5C Animation.gif|30px]] · James-001 · [[Image:Arbiterhalo.jpg|35px]] ·  Find me  23:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * NO MERGE As per GPT and above. It would indeed be a bold move to merge something without actual proof of it being the truth. The arguments presented in favor of this merging are speculative. A single sentence in a novel can't be interpreted and used as an argument until more information is provided.--High Seraph 19:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * DON'T MERGE- Nobody can be sure they are the same rank. they may be, but until someone (ie; Eric Nylund or Bungie), they should stay different pages. -- SpecOps306 09:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * NO MERGE - This is no real solid apparent and obvious reason to believe that Imperial Admirals and Supreme Commanders are the same rank. - Black Mercy 03:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * NO MERGE - As per GPT above. Someone would try to spit them up after that anyway. - R1e2u3b4e5n6 11:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * NO MERGE - As per GPT above. Cheers, [[Image:John010117.jpg|14px]] John010117[Covenant of Halopedia] 00:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

not 11'6
the imperial admiral is not 11'6! its his hologram which he talks to the elite's thats 11'6. -- Cicthalowars 23:58, 26 March 2007
 * No the hologram was either somewhere around 30 or 20 meters butt as for xytan's height, it was either a typo or that is in fact his height though it is possible that he was wearing a head dress as very high ranked elite most likely would. Please sign coments by adding and then adding your user name.Halo3 04:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)--Halo3
 * Maby he was a sub species of elite? sangheili-maximus or realy big elite. Could he have been mutated? or... could this end up like that cheating wizard of OZ who pretended to be big but was actualy 4'sommat.


 * He could be just naturally tall... --User:JohnSpartan117 05:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean, how long is the tallest man on the wolrd. 2.40 metre's right? Why cant the same be true for Sangheili.--Lieutenant Alan 07:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I got an e-mail fom Eric Nylund explaining that Xytan manages his height well and that it is his false height.Halo3 20:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3

Edited page
I just edited the page on explaining why Supreme Commander and Imperial Admiral are the same.Halo3 15:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)--Halo3


 * Until this issue is resolved no more new info should be added to the page. -- Esemono 16:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I myself then will vote to merge.With all do respect please add this proof that the Supreme Commander and Imperial Admiral are the same rank.That huge paragraph that I had written above to originally edit the page,"Imperial Admiral".Like I said, I vote "Yes this article should be merged with Supreme Commander."Halo3 22:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)--Halo3


 * But two different names are used, and we never hear two different names for any rank, other than Zealots having sub-ranks. I'm going to vote not to merge. Guesty-Persony-Thingy Early 90's to March 31, 2007. RIP. 20:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Generally the books are are the best source of information and also I consider them the cold hard proof of information plus you actually do here to different names for ranking suck as ship master or the other name is zealot and to prove that these are also the same, the ship master voro was also able to field command as he mentioned to controll the ground forces himself.But anyway the point is that there can be two different names for a specific object or person in the covenant.Another example is the covenant super carrier.Notice how it has the second name of fleet carrier.Halo3 01:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3


 * Firstly some are using the graphic novel to there advantage by imaging of the supreme commander in purple which is not exactly cannon.Secondly the book itself does provide the sufficient amount of info.Third yes the sentances can be used to interpret.So what ifn it's just one small sentance.You know what they say "Big things can come in small packages."Halo3 01:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3 Oh and the imperial admiral as I said commanded a larger fleet out of pure rebellion.He combined the fleet without a promotion in rank or permission from the prphets therefore he unofficially commanded a larger fleet.Also, this is not speculation as the proof is right there.I even wrote down the definition of the word FORMER used in the book until someone deleted it.I will post it again.Also,it is most likely that he orginally commanded one fleet.If Imperial admiral is different it is likely that it is only a rank made from rebellion just to form a leader.As I said that is not his official rank there fore it is possible that the elites just simply made the rank up to creat him as there leader.But still I generally think that truely they are probably the same.Halo3 01:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3
 * I'd have to differ in the argument you keep using about the use of the word "FORMER". The "This happened before the former supreme commander of fleet of particular justice." excerpt; it's referring the former Suprme Commander of the Fleet of Particular Justice. Who is he now? The Arbiter. He didin't promote himself in an act of rebellion, he was demoted to Fleet Master or Ship Master (hence the Zealot armor alternation)before his trial. Then he was appointed the rank of Arbiter.--High Seraph 17:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Idea: Just see the Canon Policy. -- ED ( talk )(shockfront) 02:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Even if they were'nt the same rank they still should'nt be that Imperial Admiral is higher than supreme commander as this is unknown.Also technically he did promote himself as it mentions elites "Elites though that he was there only means of survival." This half-way supports that the elites had combined a two fleets out of rebellion as they though Xytan as there only means of survival.You can try to ask Eric Nylund but he mentioned to me that regretably he had returned his copy of the Halo Bible to Bngie therefore he can not provide any information about the matter.The zealot rank is also part specualtion.As I've said before I only except solid proof.Halo3 20:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3


 * But as far as we can tell (I'm done with the acronyms), Imperial Admirals have much more power. In HGN, the pre-Arbiter seems to only have a few ships at his command, but in GoO Xytan 'War Jatinree is commanding the entirety of the Covenant fleet, and even if he did promote himself, he promoted himself to Imperial Admiral and that's when he was able to command the entire Covenant fleet. Also, your quote says nothing about two fleets, but I am pretty sure that even if they did combine two smaller fleets, that made one big Covenant fleet of all the ships still held by the Elites, and he is the one commanding them; you just supported my argument there, instead of your own. Also, Xytan is probably their only means of survival just because he already had the authority to command the fleet, he was well known, well respected, like an idol to them, and he was the only one who could lead them to defeat the Brutes. As for the Zealot rank thing, we really don't know, and it is all based on a single incident where a Supreme Commander was wearing Zealot armor, and there are numerous other reasons why he could be wearing that armor, but for now let's just leave it as it is; it's the most likely reason and argument ad populum is always the basis for which info goes where on these sites, and most people believe they're Zealot sub-ranks. <font color="#000000">G <font color="#770000">ü <font color="#cc0000">é <font color="#ff0000">ß <font color="#ff3333">Ł <font color="#ff6666">¥ -<font color="#9999ff">∏ <font color="#6666ff">é <font color="#3333ff">Ґ <font color="#0000ff">∫ <font color="#0000cc">ø <font color="#000066">ñ <font color="#000000">¥ -<font color="#000000">† <font color="#007700">ħ <font color="#00cc00">î <font color="#00ff00">И <font color="#44ff44">g <font color="#99ff99">¥  18:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes I've already known I supported your argument but barely as I led the subject into the fact the imperial admiral is'nt known to be higher.But as I said we should'nt say ones hihger than the other as the arbiter might have done the same thing had he been in a similar situation.And as Eric Nylund told me we are not going to actually know yet because as he said,"Regrettably I just returned my copy of the Halo Bible to Bungie."So we don't know yet.The point is that we should'nt justify Imperial Admiral to actually be higher.Would you like me to e-mail Eric Nylund again (Though I'm quit worried about invading his privacy.Halo3 00:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3

Oh and you said that he commanded a few ships, that's wrong as he also controlled a fleet.Truth said "Long have you led your fleet with honor and dispute."

Oh and firstly, Don't edit my comments.I just realized somebody has been sabotaging,vandalizing,twisting everything that I say.Ex. I originaly put "Oh and you said he commanded a fiew ships."Somebody came up and sabotaged it to make it look like I said "Oh and he commanded a fiew fleets." when it was originally "A fiew ships." Whovever did this I'm on to you and when I find out whose been twisting and sabotaging my words!Halo3 03:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3 I don't appreciate people cheating and scaming just to get there way so I'm pretty ticked off about the matter.Halo3 03:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)--Halo3

Ok, after a long abscence from Halopedia, I'm back and ready to debate through vague and shadowy topics. My own two cents into this ongoing debate; as both sides seem to agree, there is no actual information to support either side of this issue. We have no official information that states that Imperial Admiral is a rank, if it was created after the schism, if it's not officially a rank, where it stands in hierarchy, etc. As such, we can make no movements to either merge or add information. The only thing we can do is put in the info that official sources have given us, discuss things in the talk page for the sake of debate and wait for the info to come out. Note that by debate I mean speculation by fans that is to be regarded as interesting theories and nothing more. By no means should these theories be added to the page without direct reference.--High Seraph 02:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright then High seraph I agree to your point.Let us wait until direct cannon is released.Halo3 01:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)--Halo3