Forum:Halo 4 discussion

Since Halo 4 is around the corner, I guess it is fitting to have a formal discussion page for things related to the game. Feel free to share your opinion/criticism about the game!

Have fun discussing about the game! — subtank   04:50, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

Other threads

 * Forum:Halo 4 Celebration - Want a countdown timer for the launch of Halo 4? Check out this thread.
 * Forum:Halo 4 armor opinions - Put your opinions about the armor design in this thread.

About the weapon sandbox
Still finding it odd (and disappointed) that the Forerunners, more specifically the Prometheans, use such archaic weapon designs considering that they are described being so advanced in the Bear's Forerunner Trilogy. Was expecting something like the Republic Commando's DC-17m blaster that can be configured to three different weapon setups.— subtank   04:50, 27 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Yeah, indeed. Weak weapon strength also seems off. If you're going to use light as a weapon, why use hard light bullets when it'd be cheaper to use lasers? But hey, that's been as far as Halo 2 when they gave Enforcers a shield that only covers part of their body.


 * While I'm unsure as to how 4's plot will turn out (though I expect to be alright), I'm more excited for Forward Unto Dawn. The Halo movie has finally come! Take that, Harvey Weinstein! Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 11:27, 27 September 2012 (EDT)


 * I guess it has something to do with 343i wanting the weapons to look "familar" and function similarily, which explains why the Lightrifle performs like the BR & DMR in one. However this causes some redundancy; 4 different weapons that essentially function the same. It may also have something to do with balancing. Nonetheless I do like the way they sound and "form" in the player's hands. Also I love the ARC-920, Sticky Detonator, & SAW, and how we have both the BR and DMR in the game. Really spices up the gameplay. Although one of my wishes wasn't fullfilled...a UNSC energy weapon other than the Spartan Laser. :(-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 12:45, 27 September 2012 (EDT)


 * To be honest, I think I'm more hyped for the FuD than the game itself! But about Halo 4, I really hope they bring back Arbiter. At least a honorable mention. Something like "I thought the Arbiter resolved the conflict" would be nice. Also, anyone else find it interesting that the Storm uses a color scheme of both the Brutes and Elites (purple + green)? I think gameplay will be something really new and foreign to me, considering that the Promethean weapons having different firing modes and . The fact that Promethean weapons resemble human weapons is somewhat weird and disappointing to me. We never had a human counterpart of the Sentinel beam, and I think that's one thing 343i didn't do right: Forerunner weapons should be less "human". — S331 Bubbleshieldhud.svg(COM • Mission Log • Profile) 12:52, 27 September 2012 (EDT)


 * @Killamint: The direction for the weapon design is not focused; they are more of "How can we make a shotgun futuristic and sci-fi?" (as stated in the latest dev-podcast) than "How can we nail down this ancient alien close-quarter weapon?".The latter is more of how Bungie normally approach things: For example, when asked to Marty for a music sample for the Halo announcement at Macworld 1999, they simply wanted "an ancient, epic alien" feel). I am worried about the franchise... too many similar gameplay elements.
 * This is out of topic but a fun read: click! — subtank   13:11, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

Not sure how the weapons seem "human", but I guess that's your opinion. As for the change in multiplayer, I am excited for the change, as multiplayer hasn't had much change over the years. I think it will be a nice refresher to multiplayer.-- Spartacus,   Halopedia Administrator  Talk 13:21, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Not sure how to word it out correctly but I think what Killamint meant was the using the Forerunner weapons feel more human, albeit more futuristic/sci-fi ish, than being Forerunner weapons. Prior to Halo 4, most would imagine the weapons would be alien to them based on what they read and saw throughout the Halo franchise (like me for example, hoping for a one weapon configurable into various roles since they use one source of energy/ammunition).— subtank   13:29, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Yup, you nailed it. Familar meaning "Human-like" (adaptable), both in function and aesthetics. The Scattershot is essentially a shotgun, both in looks & function (including the reticule & reload action). I like it but I was hoping for something more unique that, like S331 said, was alien & not familar, but still adaptable. However the weapons do resemble Forerunner design to a degree w/ those sharp angles and whatnot.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 16:58, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Yep, I was hoping that weapon we saw in Origins would appear for the sake of continuity, but I guess 343i didn't want to add a weapon that operates like the Power Rangers. @Spartacus: Forerunner weapons operate like human weapons (what's the difference between the AR and Suppressor other than different clip size?), hence the term "human". @Subtank: It does worry me about the gameplay. They included grenade indicator, different weapons that operate in the same way (I miss the good old days with the Sentinel beam), sprint part of gameplay. Next thing you know, we are gonna get the annoying bloody screens, and that would suck. — S331  Bubbleshieldhud.svg(COM • Mission Log • Profile) 04:45, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Another factor to consider is that the Forerunners were so advanced that they would routinely alter their very shapes to better perform the many tasks required by their Rates. Therefore, it makes sense that the tools (and weapons) they used would be equally capable of adapting themselves to the user. Based on what we've seen in the videos, it seems logical to me that a Scattershot would have looked a lot different in the hands of a Builder than it did in the hands of a Promethean or other Warrior-Servant... Therefore it's not altogether surprising to me that, in the hands of a human, it would configure itself into a shape more familiar to us... It's just doing what it was designed to do. How hard could that be for a race that considered moving stars around to be a routine activity? In the hands of a Forerunner, it probably wouldn't have had limited ammo, because it would have integrated itself directly into their Combat Skin, but we're not advanced enough to ceate a sufficiently powerful source of energy on the fly, so it makes sense that the weapon would self-assemble some sort of limited-use capacitor when it detects no available power supply to tap into. As for the weapon in Origins, if you squint real hard and suspend disbelief a little, you can imagine that the Boltshot might look like that in the hands of a Forerunner... Maybe...? DJenser 09:20, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
 * If what you say is true than why do the Promethean weapons look and perform the same when in the hands of a Knight? @S331: I do see what you mean, too many changes can make the game feel not so original but honestly I don't think 343i will stray that far or they will catch alot of heat. Although I'm fine with the grenade indicator (although it seems unnecessary) & sprint. Regardless of those features, its still gonna require skill to kill (or live). I'm still getting Halo 4 regardless because my primary concern is Campaign and Spartan Ops, I'm more story driven than anything. Wargames comes last for me mainly because its intimidating playing against other people who have more skill than you.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 12:29, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
 * They perform the same because the weapon has a basic function regardless of who uses it. The difference lies in how the weapon behaves when grafted to the arm of a Knight or, say, a Forerunner wearing a Combat Skin. Granted, I haven't played War Games or Spartan Ops yet, but I'm pretty sure that Knights don't have reload animations when they use their weapons, because they don't have to reload. The Scattershot is still going to fire a bunch of bouncy projectiles that incinerate, the Suppressor is still going to fire a silly number of hardlight rounds & the Binary Rifle is still going to disintegrate you if it hits the tip of your big toe, but when they're attached to a Knight, they don't run out of ammo. When a player picks it up, it automatically reconfigures itself to allow the same sort of basic function, while making allowance for the obvious limitations of the wielder (ie: no power supply to tap into means that it runs off of its onboard capacitors until they run out, and it configures itself in a manner that will allow these to be replaced/reloaded) DJenser 16:01, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
 * The problem is that all AI units in the games do not have any reload animation because they are given bottomless clip. While they do have infinite ammunition, they are programmed to fire their shots at a specific rate to avoid being overpowered. There's a nifty dialogue of allies shouting the need to reload but they don't really do it. This won't change in Halo 4, safe to say. Nice theory but I'm not sure if it holds any water. — subtank   10:33, 29 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Sorry, I was attempting to offer an in-game (and, apparently, less cynical) explanation, whereas I now realize that you were looking at it from a strictly gampeplay/mechanics perspective. In that case, you're right: the "advanced" Forerunner weapons have been nerfed all to h311 and back in order to balance gameplay, much like any of the weapons/powers/spells/etc that have been introduced in every other game out there with a multiplayer component. It's a sad fact of the gaming industry that, if there's even the slightest bit of imbalance or an exploit, someone's going to spam it... After all, written into the genes of every living thing on Earth is an evolutionary imperative to take the quickest path to advancement. Besides, speaking from a strictly gameplay/mechanics perspective, if there were a truly advanced Forerunner weapon in the game that could convert itself to a number of other weapons, it would make weapon drops kinda pointless. Situations like that force the designers to compromise between real creativity and balanced play, which I'm sure has frustrated them to no end, going back to the early days of 8-bit Atari... DJenser 12:12, 29 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Well, you mentioned "reload animation" which caught my "gameplay" attention. :P
 * Your theory on "adaptable configuration" sounds plausible, but surely the Forerunners, being advanced as they are, would include a safe-option (or an off-switch) to prevent the weapon from being used by the enemy (since they are made to fight off the Flood) or any Reclaimers should they become unruly.— subtank   13:01, 29 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Touché... I did walk right into that one.
 * As to the safety option, this is exactly what I was referring to regarding the tightrope that the designers have to walk between "cool" and "balanced". If they don't allow the players to use the new toys, then "the game sucks because it teases us with stuff we can't have". However, if they allow it in-game in a manner that truly represents the advanced nature of Forerunner tech then "teh g@m3 $uxx0rz cuz the ubern00bs are sp@mmin teh OP gunz"... Their solution is to make the new stuff look different (self-assembly & orange glowy bits), but generally perform at the same level as the rest of the gear. Sure, logic dictates that it should be a LOT more powerful than it is, & it should disintegrate upon the death of its user like the Plasma Sword did in HCE, but they also know that making the multiplayer content unbalanced & holding back the new toys will likely drive down sales, so they must overlook "logic" to a certain extent in order to try and please as many people as possible. Like anything that markets to the public, video game design involves a fair amount of butt-kissing and crow-eating. DJenser 13:57, 29 September 2012 (EDT)
 * @S331 Different weapons that operate the same way aren't only found in CoD, but in a lot of other competitive games, like Counter Strike. Why does everybody compare everything to CoD these days? Also, the grenade indicator is incredibly useful when used with the thruster pack (don't diss it just because it's similar to something in CoD...), and sprint makes the game much more dynamic (and is actually balanced this time around since you can't just get away while getting shot). 92.84.48.50 12:35, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
 * No one mentioned about CoD or even compared anything to it specifically. :/ — subtank   10:33, 29 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I quote "They included grenade indicator, different weapons that operate in the same way (I miss the good old days with the Sentinel beam), sprint part of gameplay. Next thing you know, we are gonna get the annoying bloody screens, and that would suck." So yeah, he did mention CoD...92.84.44.25 13:19, 29 September 2012 (EDT)

Vehicles
The Mantis is one very interesting addition to the sandbox that kinda changes gameplay, at least for that segment of the campaign. It will be fun to annihilate everything in your path and stomp your enemies. But seriously, I can't wait to see it in action. I also hope the Mammoth is drivable. But I'm still waiting to see what else 343i has in store for us. I'm sure there's a Forerunner vehicle waiting to be revealed.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 16:58, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Saw some Ragnorak (Valhalla remake) gameplay. Apparently, the Mantis is also a multiplayer vehicle. Dammit Frankie, stop telling us lies! Missing Mandible 19:52, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Please list the link to that if you can. I want to see that.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 21:18, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Sure. . This was at the Eurogamer Expo (Or whatever they call it).Missing Mandible 10:24, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
 * WTF??! So the Mantis will be useable on that map? let alone War Games?? That should be interesting. I honestly don't remember Frankie saying that the Mantis is a campaign exclusive vehicle. I wonder what other "exclusives" will be in War Games.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 12:29, 28 September 2012 (EDT)

Forward Unto Wrong
I'm sorry but this is a good opportunity to bring this up. I love 343i and the progress they've made with Halo 4 but I have one small problem. Why in the world did they change the look of the Forward Unto Dawn? I know everything else in the game has pretty much recieved a facelift including MC's armor, and I have no problems with that, but the FuD is beyond that by a long shot. It has pretty much been turned into an axed up UNSC Destroyer, more so the Heracles in my opinion. Did they do this because of the Dawn mission layout? Or just because they wanted it to look better? It kinda messes up canon- both visual & regular. For instance, we saw the Arbitor take a ride in the bridge that, now all of sudden, still exist attached to ship. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I understand retcon but this is kinda pushing it in my opinion.-- Killamint  [Comm |Files ] 17:23, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * If I had to guess, it would be more gameplay and artistic license rather than canonical.-- Spartacus,   Halopedia Administrator  <font color="Black">Talk 19:38, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

Gameplay indeed, hence why the cryo chamber was also changed. Likely the original frigate design could have been too cramped and lack the room for wider battles. Looks like they're going more this as opposed to this. Let's just pretend a Precursor changed it for the funnies. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 19:45, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Looking at the end cutscene of Halo 3, I didn't see the bridge falling down to Earth. I can only see the MAC and a small portion of the side parts.Missing Mandible 19:49, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Looking at some images, I believe that Arby would not have been on the bridge. At least, without A) dieing from suffocation, and B) bringing MC back to Earth. File:FUD-04-00.JPG There's one of the images I was looking at. Missing Mandible 20:09, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I just took a look at the cutscene here and if you look carefully at 5:31, you can see the bridge is still attached to the back half. Additionally, this image shows Arby's half didn't have the bridge. He must have moved last minute. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 20:17, 27 September 2012 (EDT)


 * @Tuckerscreator: I stand corrected. But now I'm thinking Halo 3 messed up canon by not keeping the bridge on the front half. Arby's in the bridge one minute, the next he's back on Earth w/ the front half but the bridge isn't present on the front half. Talk about inconsistencies in the Halo universe. This should be added to the list. If Arby moved at the last minute, that would've meant the portal closed at a slow rate giving him time to climb several stories to reach the MAC gun section. @Missing Mandible: Okay I don't understand what you mean by B). A) The FuD's doors could have easily been sealed once the ship (or Arby) detected atmospheric leak & vacuum pressure, or may have already been vacuum sealed b4 the ship was cut in half.-- Killamint  [<font color="Red">Comm |<font color="Black">Files ] 20:46, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

The redesign of the Dawn, as others before me have pointed out, is essentially for gameplay purpose. The Dawn 's width, in canon, is no more than ~150 meters but as seen in this image, the width has been exaggerated to accommodate the gameplay space. It would be an easier (and better) design choice by having John/Cortana waking up and invade into a CSS-class from the Fud as Storm forces inspect the ship, commandeer a working Seraph from the hangar bay and crash land that into Requiem. Would be more dramatic, not to mention fun to revisit the insides of a CSS-class. — subtank   02:37, 28 September 2012 (EDT)


 * That mission design would have been very cool, Subtank. Talk about double déjà vu. Anyway, I'm glad that Halo 4 begins with a thematic tribute to The Pillar of Autumn and Cairo Station. Despite looking so much different from frigates in previous games, I like the new design; as Killamint has mentioned, it reminds me quite a bit of the Heracles. I do wonder, however, whether 343 will treat the Charon class' nearly doubled size as a retcon or simply keep it ambiguous. The aft half alone looks as big as the entire ship did in Halo 3, though maybe that's a matter of forced perspective. --Courage never dies. 11:14, 28 September 2012 (EDT)


 * @Everyone: Thanks for providing a better understanding of this. Let me sum it up in my own words. The change is essentially a "design repurposed for gameplay" on the "Dawn" mission and doesn't serve to be retcon for the Charon class of Frigates, or Frigates in general. That's my conclusion on the matter. If that's the case, I'm gonna assume that 343i will not have an explanation for the Frigates change in the story. That seems like the most plausible way to approach such a drastic change, cause as far as I'm concerned, there is no "realistic" explanation. It does look bigger too. Now the idea Subtank came up with sounds beast. That would really be fun, that would bring the best of both worlds in one mission. And yes, it looks like the Heracles with the latter Destroyers "side wings" and bridge placement.-- Killamint  [<font color="Red">Comm |<font color="Black">Files ] 12:29, 28 September 2012 (EDT)

By following this conversation and taking all the points into account, I am still reminded of the FuD assembly that will be released by Megabloks. One thing that is notable from most of the images of the wreckage is that it gives no indication of how the front portion of the vessel would appear with the changed ship model, if that vessel was not severed by the Ark's portal.

Another factor that in my opinion should be considered is the FuD's toy, when it is put together as a complete object. From that, the extent of the redesign becomes very apparent. While it maintains some aspects of the original design, such as the angled plates on the sides of the engines, to the parts of the ship containing the MAC gun, as well as that part having another extended structure below it, along with armor plates sloping down on either side of the weapon, it is still a dramatic redesign.

Oddly enough, from the E3 trailer, the Paris-Class Frigates still look the same as they did in 'Halo: Reach', while the Halycon-Class Light Cruisers share the same model for the PoA from Anniversary.

From the facts that I have noted, perhaps the redesign of the FuD is more than just game play and artistic license. The reason I suggest that is because from way things worked in the past, particularly regarding UNSC cruisers and frigates, is this; all vessels look the same as the aesthetically most recent model, regardless of model, class, etc.

That would mean that the In Amber Clad would be identical to the Forward Unto Dawn, which would likely in turn look like the frigates in Reach, despite being entirely different types of frigates. There was even a bit of that in Halo 2; in one of the early cinematics, when the soon-to-be Arbiter is on trial, recalling the PoA's escape from Reach, the model for the ship is the same model for the Marathon-Class heavy cruisers, rather than being designed to indicate the difference between the two respective cruiser classes.

While the above obviously has to do with practicalities, etc., it does bring me to my main suggestion: the redesign could be an effort on 343I's part to show a starker distinction between different classes of frigates. Just as they didn't want John's redesigned armor to be known as mere artistic license for the sake of it, but rather the outcome of a genuine, in-universe change, perhaps they felt it would be appropriate to show that different ship models, even within the same categorical range, can still be physically distinct from one another without being largely identical in shape. --Exalted Obliteration 20:13, 28 September 2012 (EDT)

Forerunner
I found this video today. Its the full mission "Forerunner" played by Frank O' Conner. You will have to listen to the presentation or promptly skip part of it in order to get to the part where he plays the level. Its quite intriguing and also there's a new Forerunner/Promethean turret like unit/structure that fires a beam but it has to charge up between shots. Enjoy & feel free to share your opinions of the level.-- Killamint  [<font color="Red">Comm |<font color="Black">Files ] 14:25, 29 September 2012 (EDT)