Archive talk:Covenant Ship Classification Canon Debate/Archive

We need to hammer out what is real and what isn't. It's getting crazy with people making up ship classifications so please prove these exist in the Halo Universe:


 * Holy hell. I know that's the biggest oxymoron of all time, BUT...wow. You're going insane killing these things. ESEMONO, I BEG YOU: READ THE BOOKS AND SEE FOR YOUR OWN EYES! Okay! I will provide your little page numbers later, but first...Cheersm  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's all I want is page numbers, if they have page numbers they can stay. -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I've provided quite a few (and I apologize if my remarks sound heavily laced with sarcasm...it is probably because they are). I don't have my copy of Halo: The Fall of Reach, so I won't be able to look them all up, but when UNSC AI #23 gets on tomorrow I'll have him cross reference for them.--Rot 2312 6.12.06
 * No that's great! I'm so glad that someone is finally making an effort to hammer out what's real and what's not. -- Esemono 10:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant Cruiser

 * Merge Into Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser RR has stated that this ship is 1782.2m long information confirmed from HBO's Scale Image that lists the Truth and Reconciliation as a Covenant Cruiser that is 1782m long (Not sure where RR got the .2m).  Therefore the Covenant Cruiser should just be a redirect to Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser because User:RelentlessRecusant has confirmed that the Truth and Reconciliation is a Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser.--Yamanba 13:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. From the info we've been able to draw, a cruiser is smaller than a carrier, and the only carrier whose length we can estimate is 1455. Is RR got 1782 from the Truth and Reconcilliation, then he made a mistake because from what we know the cruiser and battlecruiser are seperate things. I think cruiser should warrant its own article that generally describes it and has links the heavy, Reverence, light, battle, and super cruiser.--Rot 00:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What info are you drawing on? The HBO Scale Image lists the Covenant Cruiser as in fact a Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser.  Why does there have to be a seperate class of cruiser that is SMALLER than the Covenant Destroyer? -- Esemono 05:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In Halo: First Strike, it describes Covenant cruisers as smaller than Covenant Carriers. Then, in Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, it describes Covenant carriers as three times the size of a UNSC destroyer. That puts the Cruiser at less than 1.5km (1455m to be exact, but 1.5km is a nicer number). In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, it describes Covenant cruisers as being about 1.5km, so that means that Carriers are only just larger than cruisers. However, the Battlecruiser is 1782m long, which is about 200m longer.--Rot 02:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You're speculating that a Covenant Cruiser class even exists.
 * HBO states that the Covenant Cruiser is a Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser
 * Logic dictates that a Covenant Cruiser wouldn't be smaller than a Covenant CPV-class Heavy Destroyer and that when Cruiser is mentioned in the books its just a quick way to say, "Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser" -- Esemono 05:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yamanba, you are falling all over yourself here. First, you still haven't replied to my earlier statement. In Halo: First Strike, it is stated that the Covenant cruiser is smaller than the Covenant carrier. In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, a UNSC destroyer runs into a carrier three times its size. The UNSC destroyer averages at 485m, so that makes the Covenant carrier around 1455m. If the Battlecruiser is 1782m, and the Cruiser is less than 1455m, it is logical to say that they are not the same. Second, you say "Logic dictates", yet when it comes to rank, logic dictates a strict following of the American system and you call this "rampant speculation". Is it not, then, the same for Covenant ships? Third, I am speculating the Cruiser is a seperate class just as much as you are speculating it doesn't. The difference is that I have evidence. I have failed to see yours thus far. Finally, what RelentlessRecusant says is not canon. If he says the Cruiser was 1782m, perhaps he was mistaken. He has obviously since changed his mind.--Rot 04:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Unyielding Hierophant is a SHIP

 * So User:RelentlessRecusant is wrong when he claims that the Battleship is the mysterious ship in Halo First Strike with the five bublous sections? -- Esemono 05:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The mysterious ship with five bulbous sections is the myster ship of the Unyielding Hierophant (because the only time I can think of it being mentioned is when John-117 is looking at the Unyielding Hierophant and surrounding fleet). .--Rot 02:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What I am trying to say is that the five bulbous ship seen when John-117 is by the Unyieldind Hierophant is the battleship. The name itself is fanon, but the information is real, and I would rather call it battleship than call it strange mystery ship with five bulbous sections.--Rot 04:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant Carrier

 * DELETE no proof has been brought forward.-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Turn with me now to page 195 of Halo: Ghosts of Onyx. There you will find this, "The carrier, the Lawgiver, turned, and lasers stitched the frigate. Several beams painted its hull, heating the shields - before another destroyer crossed the line of fire." This is during a Covenant battle between Elite and Brute ships. There are no UNSC personnel present (except for the Prowler Dusk viewing from a distance). That's proof enough for me.--Rot 2256 6.12.06
 * Does it say how big the Lawgiver is? Cause this quote sounds like they just used the term Carrier as in short for Assault Carrier -- Esemono 11:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but that would be speculating.--Rot 1528 7.12.06
 * If we had more information we could make sure. I'm guessing there is no size given for the Lawgiver?-- Esemono 01:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I am still looking for such info. My guess is that somewhere else in the books, a size is given, and that is where the Lawgivers size comes from.--Rot' 1523 9.12.06
 * Well at 19:27, 30 November 2006 User:Darth nexes added the size of the ship as 1455 meters so lets ask him where he got the info. -- Esemono 04:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * RelentlessRecusant recently enlightened me as to the logic of 1455. In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, a UNSC destroyer is mentioned as colliding with a Covenant carrier three times its size. Assuming the destroyer is 485m long, that places the Covenant carrier at roughly 1455m long.--Rotaretilbo 05:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Goodness gracious...this is one of the most titanic wastes of time ever, but I guess Rot and I will do it.
 * It seems like Rot did everything. -- Esemono 08:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant Battleship

 * DELETE no known info about where this came from. -- Esemono 22:18, 20 November 2006
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep- In halo the first strike, pg 32, It says: He saw the fant outlines of dozens of Covenant Battleships in low orbit.Admaral Sozai
 * Can we confirm that the quote isn't He saw the fant outlines...
 * What the hell is a fant? Is this a real quote? -- Yamanba 13:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sigh, nexes isn't the best speller. "He saw the faint outlines of dozens of Covenant battleships in low orbit." page 32 of Halo: First Strike, lines 11 and 12. If you guys don't believe a quote and a page number is provided, look it up, and if you can't find it, then start asking questions. I am sick of having to look up and confirm quotes because everyone else is too lazy, but jumps to make accusations.--Rot 03:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - As per Admiral Sozai-- Personally, I think the name battleship is just an ambiguous term like starship or warship. However, the information describes the mystery ship of the Unyielding Hierophant, so the maybe-fanon name describes factual info as far as I am concerned.--Rot 00:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant CAR-class Heavy Cruiser

 * DELETE no proof has been brought forward.-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Further Investigation - You know, I don't understand you at all. This shoot first ask questions later style war you wage on Covenant ships is rather annoying. As for the CAR class, it is not mentioned in the book, but transmissions found on Bungie's site prior to Halo CE's release describes two ships as CAR class. It does now, however, state the type of ship. Thus, further investigation is needed.--Rot 1522 7.12.06
 * If I shot first and asked questions later these ships would be deleted and you would be trying to provide proof in order to recreate them. As it stands I haven't shot anything.
 * As for the ship. In transmissions is states that the SCS Hermes II recieved a transmission from, "CAR Contrition (DE H c-5)". So from that little quote we've determined the Contrition is: A) a Heavy Cruiser B)is 300 m to 1400 to 1782.2 m long C)Has 5 Plasma Turrets and laterally-mounted Pulse Lasers?  We know all that from, "CAR Contrition (DE H c-5)"? -- Esemono 03:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * My assumption is that most of that data is gathered from the idea of the CAR being a cruiser. The cruiser is bigger than 300m, but smaller than a carrier, which is three times the size of a destroyer, which is about 485m, so that places the carrier at about 1455m. Also, I believe the cruiser has 5 Plasma Turrets and laterally-mounted Pulse Lasers. That would be where all that came from.--Rotaretilbo 05:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * RelentlessRecusant stated that CAR-class Heavy Cruiser was 1782.2 meters in length. So the new "official" length is 1455m?  So its maxium size is three times the distance of a destroyer yet the CPV-class Heavy Destroyer is 1500m long, isn't 3 times 1500 bigger than 1455?  As for the number of Plasma Turrents and Pulse Lasers that number is based on all cruisers having that number?  That, also, brings us back to the fact that we don't know this is a cruiser let alone a "Heavy" Cruiser. -- Esemono 12:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Split Article - When I say three times the size of a destroyer, I mean destroyer. I agree that we should have an article called "Covenant Cruiser", and a seperate one called "CAR-class warship" or something of that nature. I don't know where RR got 1782.2, but 1455 comes from the cruiser being smaller than the carrier, and the carrier being somewhere in the 1455 range.--Rot 23:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Split Article - I also agree that we should split the article. Having a cruiser that is smaller than a Covenant Destroyer seems a little strange to me.  There doesn't seem to be any reason that the CAR-class warship would be a Cruiser unless RR has some more insight as to where he got the 1782.2m figure, perhaps he found a source that said the CAR class was a crusier and it was 1782.2 m long?. -- Esemono 11:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Split article The 1782m comes from HBO's Scale Image that lists the Truth and Reconciliation as a Covenant Cruiser that is 1782m long (Not sure where RR got the .2m).  Therefore the CAR-class should be taken out and made into a new article and Covenant Cruiser should just be a redirect to Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser because User:RelentlessRecusant has confirmed that the Truth and Reconciliation is a Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser.--Yamanba 13:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant Supercruiser

 * DELETE no proof has been brought forward.-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - The name is fanon, but the information describes the "sniper" ship in Halo: The Fall of Reach. Thus, the fanon name supercruiser is a place holder until an actual name is given to it.--Rot 03:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

An update on that, this quote is describing the Covenant ship in question on page 323 in Halo: The Fall of Reach. "The covenant ship centered on the main view screen. This close Captain Keyes saw how huge the ship was- three times the mass of a normal cruiser." The quote doesn't prove without a doubt the ship is called a supercruiser, which I am not trying to prove, but it does give very good reason to believe the ship is a cruiser, which an Assault Carrier is not (the whole carrier thing kind of disqualifies it from being a cruiser). Earlier, on page 297 "One Covenant ship sat in the center of the pack, a gigantic vessel, larger the 3 UNSC cruisers." The common comparison to a cruiser rather than any other ship, and the use of the word normal in the 323 quote imply that it is a cruiser. Thus, I think it is safe to say this is not an Assault Carrier. And thus, I think it is safe to leave this ship up until we have an official name for it.--Rot 1539 7.12.06

Covenant Flagship

 * Change Article This article should be changed from an article describing a TYPE of ship to a Halo Terms and Phrases article. Flagship is not a type of ship just the title of whatever ship is in charge of the fleet.  If it is shown that the Covenant have their own type of ship that is called "Flagship Class" then this can be changed to reflect that -- Esemono 04:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Change Article - As per Esemono -- Yamanba 04:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Possible Correct might have been mentioned in the books but still no page number.-- Yamanba 06:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Change Article - As per Esemono--Rot 2048 9.12.06 Keep - Page 37, 54, and 155 of Halo: First Strike, as well as several others that I am too lazy to look up, refer the the Ascendant Justice as a Covenant flagship, or just flagship. " 'A flagship,' the Chief murmured. 'Interesting.' -37, "The flagship was close. Too close." -54, "The Covenant flagship smoothly accelerated insystem." -155, " 'The fleet is curious why a Covenant flagship is here, but not suspicious enough to question our authority...' " -155, I figure these four should do.--Rot 23:24 6.12.06
 * They same the name Flagship but is that a whole new class/size of ship or just an existing class/size of ship that has been designated the "Flagship". RelentlessRecusant has "specifically" checked Halo: First Strike and stated that the flagship is TWO kilometers long Yet you state that the Ascendant Justice is a Flagship even though the Ascendant Justice is THREE kilometers long. -- Esemono 10:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * My understanding of flagships is that the flagship is just the one ship where the admiral is located usually, but not neccessarily the biggest ship in the fleet. Often the flagship will change during the course of the battle as ships are damaged or destroyed.  Granted we're talking about an Alien species here.... -- Esemono 11:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps...perhaps. I'll continue looking into it.--Rot 1708 7.12.06
 * I think Sarge refers to it (Unyielding Hierophant) as the Uneven Elephant...  SPARTAN-091  File:UNSC.jpg|15 px]] HelmetComm 15:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser

 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Possible Correct - HBO calls it an Covenant Battlecruiser in this image but no mention of CCS-class-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Proof offered here. Esemono, you seem to be looking at the wrong ship in that image. HBO refers to it as a Battlecruiser. --Dragonclaws 01:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the name of the ship class, Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser. So you're saying that there is a Battlecruiser AND a Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser? -- Esemono 03:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No. It's just that you said "assault carrier", which is Regret's ship, and we're talking about the CCS-class, which is the Truth and Reconciliation, refered to in the image as "Battlecruiser." --Dragonclaws 06:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ahhhhhhh my bad I must of copied and pasted that from the Assault Crusier -- Esemono 11:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So just to clarify Covenant CCS-class Battlecruiser is considered Cannon because of this quote:


 * "Our fighters are mopping up the last of their recon picket now, nothing serious. But, I've isolated approach signatures from multiple CCS battle groups; make it three capitol ships per group. And in about 90 seconds they'll be all over us" -Cortana, Pillar of Autumn level. However there is no mention of the term Battlecruiser.


 * and


 * HBO calls the Truth and Reconciliation a Covenant Battlecruiser in this image but no mention of CCS-class


 * Combine with

The two above quotes are linked by the Transmissions where it stated that the, SCS Pillar of Autumn received a transmission from the "CCS Truth and Reconciliation (DE H c-1)" -- Esemono 03:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant supercarrier

 * *DELETE no proof has been brought forward. As shown by me moving the articles to the Proven section, I remove my Deleteion vote.-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As per Rot. Halo: Ghosts of Onyx.
 * Keep - One page 236 of Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, you will note "The Unggoy Kwassass knew his pace aboard the Covenant supercarrier Sublime Transcendence." Above this, in the chapter data log, it says "ABOARD FLEET CARRIER SUBLIME TRANSCENDENCE, IN ORBIT ABOVE JOYOUS EXULTATION, SYSTEM SALIA". Thus, it can be concluded that not only is the supercarrier a Covenant warship, but it is also called the fleet carrier.--Rot 2315 6.12.06
 * Keep - It's also mentioned in The Fall of Reach. I'll come back with pg. numbers soon.  SPARTAN-091  File:UNSC.jpg|15 px]] HelmetComm
 * Supercarrier wasn't even mention in FoR. Cheers,  Relentless  Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 20:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - It is mentioned in halo first strike, on page# 338 Where they are recovered by hundreds of supercarriers and cruisersAdmaral Sozai

Covenant Frigate

 * *DELETE no proof has been brought forward. As shown by me moving the articles to the Proven section, I remove my Deleteion vote.-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * See the Battle of Reach, Battle of Sigma Octanus IV, the Battle of Delta Halo in their appropriate books. Cheers,  Relentless  Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 20:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Keyes refers to some of the Covenant ships attacking Sigma Octanus IV as the equivalent of a UNSC frigate. After that, the ships are just refered to as Covenant frigates. --Dragonclaws 01:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep- Turn with me now to page 192 of Halo: Ghosts of Onyx. It reads, "A holographic frigate pair appeared on the deck and sped towards them: the Tenebrous and the Twilight Compunction, commanded by the alpha Jiralhanae, Gargantum." Then on 193, "The frigate pair split to miss the carrier in their flight path. The enemy ships, and their plasma torpedoes, became obscured by the bulb of the sleek carrier." just in case you thought they were UNSC frigates.--Rot 2301 6.12.06

Covenant light cruiser

 * *DELETE no proof has been brought forward. As shown by me moving the articles to the Proven section, I remove my Deleteion vote.-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Two were in the depths of Reach's gravity well in that business w/ the Ascendant Justice. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep - Actually, if you would be so kind as to read Halo: First Strike page 167 for me. I believe the text goes something like..."Two exceptions to this patrol pattern were a pair of light cruisers hovering over Menachite Mountain" and earlier on page 167, to distinguish light from heavy, "There were a total of thirteen heavy cruisers and three carriers moving three hundred kilometers above the surface of the planet." You might want to double check before declaring something as false.--Rotaretilbo 17:59, 06 December 2006
 * Thank you for providing sources and page numbers! Its users like you who make Halopedia a stronger more respected Halo database! -- Esemono 01:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant CPV-class Destroyer

 * Confirmed - As shown in the Transmissions-- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As per Esemono.  Relentless  Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 20:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Covenant Assault Carrier

 * Possible Correct - HBO calls it an assault carrier in this image -- Esemono 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Your word isn't proof, Halo sources please -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "I'm reading fifteen vessels inside the kill zone: two assault carriers, thirteen cruisers. I'm going loud!"

- Cortana during the First Battle of Earth Good enough?

Reverence-class Medium Cruiser

 * *DELETE no known info about where this came from. As shown by me moving the articles to the Proven section, I remove my Deleteion vote.-- Esemono 22:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - Non-fanon. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Still no proof provided that its NON-Fanon -- Esemono 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep - Would you be so kind as to read Halo: Ghosts of Onyx page 191 for me. I believe the text goes something like..."Voro resumed breathing. They were his now to command and send into battle. As was the Reverence-class cruiser Incorruptible." Again, please double check before calling something false.--Rotaretilbo 18:04, 06 December 2006
 * Thank you for providing sources, your contributions are highly valued! -- Esemono 01:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

And don't worry, Esemono. I'm keeping a sharp look over fanon ships. I am not purposely making up fanon, and if you check the page histories, you'll see me reverting fanon stuff. Cheers, Relentless Recusant File:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 02:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)