Forum:Brutes Should NOT Join Elite Covenant Remnant Factions

Brutes Should NOT Join Elite Covenant Remnant Factions
It makes no sense for Brutes to be working with Jul Madama's Covenant Remnant Faction, Merg Vol's Covenant Remnant Faction, or any Elite Covenant Remnant Faction after the events of 2552. A large part of Halo's canon/lore is the rivalry between Brutes and Elites. If Brutes and Elites are depicted working together in a post 2552 setting that completely ignores and contradicts a core part of the lore. Its fine to bring back Brutes as enemies against humans in Halo post 2552, but they can not be in an Elite Covenant Remnant Faction, they need to be in their own faction. The hatred between Brutes and Elites need to be Aknowledged.

History of why Elites and Brutes hate each other

Elites were in the Covenant Empire since day one. Brutes were the most recent addition to the Covenant Empire, and the two species didn't get along well. Brutes and Elites would often argue and get into physical fist fights with each other despite being part of the same team, and there was a tense rivalry between the two species. Because of their rivalry, they often didn't fight along side each other during the Human-Covenant war. Halo Reach shows this as you never see Brutes and Elites fight the player as a unit. It's either Elites leading Grunts and Jackals, or Brutes leading Grunts and Jackals. The Covenant clearly kept their units separate to prevent the two species from fighting each other (verbally and potentially physically).

In the events of Halo 2 (2552), the great schism occured wich pushed the hatred of the two species to the extreme. Prophet of Truth (leader of the Covenant Empire) wanted more power, he ended up changing the honor guards, and making the Brutes out rank the Elites. The Elites were angered by this and threatened to resign from the Covenant empire. The rivalry between the two species intesified even more. The Prophet of Truth then ordered all the Brutes to kill all Elites and kick them out of the Covenant. Arbiter was executed by Tartarus Chieftan of the Brutes and betrayed in cold blood (but the execution failed, Arbiter survived the fall). The Brutes showed up to the activation temple in Delta Halo where Elite Councillors were about to start the great journey, the Brutes showed up, the Elites didn't think much of it at first as the two are on the same side since they are all Covenant. Un aware of Truth's new orders, the Elite Councilors were suddenly slaughtered by the Brutes. The Brutes killed all the Elite Councilors and then ATE their corpses to let out a little more steam. High Charity, the Covenant homeworld fell into civil war. Brutes and Elites killing each other left and right. Elites have a strong sense of kinship, and when their brothers are killed they get pissed. That on top of their rivalry with the brutes building up after all those years pushed their hate to the extreem. In the middle of the war against the humans, the covenant fell into civil war, Brutes vs Elites. (Source: Halo 2)

Every single one of the Elites were ultimately kicked out of the Covenant, so most of the Elites joined forces with the humans and helped them destroy the Covenant Empire. (Source: Halo 3)

The Elites had won, but their revenge wasn't over yet. The Elites were still so angry they entire species waged war against the Brute's home world in an attempt to make them extinct. From 2552-2559 the Elites are still attacking the Brute home world genociding their species and currently winning. The Brutes are clearly not happy about this. (Source: Halo The Return https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1kUy8MmBKY)

Not even an individual Brute would want to team up with an Elite after this ordeal. What species would want to join forces with a species that is genociding their species? That is why no individual Brute could/should want to join an Elite Covenant Remnant faction.

Almost every Halo story takes the chance it has to tell the player the relationship between Brutes and Elites. Halo 2, clearly showed they don't like each other and you don't even play a mission with brutes helping you. Not to mention the Brutes ate the Elite Councilors. ODST mentioned they don't like being around each other. Halo Headhunters mentioned they don't work together. Contact harvest mentioned that they have an ancient feud and don't like being around each other hence them being on different ships.

It would not make sense for the Elites team up with the Brutes, who have had their entire species kicked out of the Covenant by the Brutes and countless betrayed/murdered in cold blood (Elites have a strong sense of kinship, and are angered when fellow brothers are betrayed) to forgive and work along side them. Just as it would not make sense for the Brutes to team up with the Elites, who have contunied to attack them after the Human-Covenant war ended, and are trying to genocide their entire species and are winning at it (as shown in Halo: The Return: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1kUy8MmBKY ).

Why Elites making peace with Brutes cannot happen

if Jul (and his Covenant Remnant faction) won't make peace with the Arbiter(and his Swords of Sanghellios faction), fellow brother Elites who fought on his side when they were both in the covenant, then why would he make peace with an enemy of his species (Brutes) who are responsible for him, along with the rest of his species getting kicked out of the covenant and replacing them. Elites and a strong sense of kinship, it would make no sense for Jul to favor Brutes over the Arbiter, one of his own brothers during the days of the Covenant Empire. If the Covenant Remnant Elties can't make peace with fellow Elites, or Humans, how can ANYONE expect they would have the mindset to make peace with an even worse enemy, the very species that slaughtered and devoured their own people in cold blood (The Brutes). The Prophets and Brutes didn't just betray the some Elites in the original Covenant Empire, they betrayed ALL Elites including Jul and his followers back when they were in the Covenant Empire. Seeing that Jul Mdama has got a hot enough temper to attack his own kin (the Arbiter's covenant faction, Swords of Sanghellios), theres no way in hell that he would forgive an outsider(Brutes), especially ones that made him and his people suffer (Brutes). If Elite Covenant Remnant factions (enmies of humanity) can't make peace with humans or fellow other Elites (Swords of Sanghellios), theres no way they would make peace with Brutes or let them join their faction.

Secondly, why would a Brute even want to join an Elite Covenant Remnant faction in the first place? Sure joining an Elite Covenant Remnant faction would give them resources, but why do that when they could just make their own Brute lead faction and avoid Elites all togehter. In Halo: The Return, the Elites are still at war with the Brutes after the Human-Covenant war ended and after the Great Schism occured. Current Halo lore is set around 2557 and 2778, Halo the Return is in 2559 and it shows Elites genociding the remnants of the Brutes. Elites hate the brutes so much that they wen't to the Brute home world and started glassing it and attempting to make the Brutes go extinct. Why would any member of a species (Brutes in this case), individual mindset or not, want to join a species that is genociding them?

Regarding Elites and Brutes working together (post-2552)

There have been some peices of Halo canon that depict Brutes and Elites working together post 2552 (the great schism, when their hatred for each other went over the roof), such as Halo Glasslands, Halo Spartan Assault, and Halo Spartan Strike. While this is techinically canon, keep in mind that no writer is perfect, and these writers probably had no clue of the events that happened in Halo 2, this they did not know that depicting Elites and Brutes working together post 2552 would contradict Canon. Writting like this should be discouraged, and we should not continue to accept Brutes and Elites working together as part of the story, if we are going to accept that the events of Halo 2's Great Schism took place we cannot have the two getting along to the point where they are willing to fight in the same faction. Its one or the other. Either Halo 2's great schism of the Brutes killing and expelling all Elites from the Covenant happened or it did not. If we are going to accept that it happened, then Brutes and Elites can not be depicted as allies post 2552. Its good to see recent Halo novels such as Halo: Broken Circle aknowledge the hatred between the two species and properly understand the events of the Great Schism.

To those who feel that "not all Brutes think the same"

Because of the events of the Great Schism in Halo 2 and Halo 3, Brutes and Elites clearly hate each other. They hate each other more than they would hate humans. Before somone says "not all members of a species will think the same way" keep in mind than in Halo 2, when the Great Schism happened, Brutes started killing ALL, Elites. Any Elite in sight. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for there to be an instance where Brutes and Elites were still team mates during the events of Halo 2 and Halo 3. Had any Elites remained in the Covenant Empire, they would have been killed by the Brutes.

A Brutes joining an Elite Covenant Remant faction, is litterally the same as a black person trying to join a racist white supremist group. The two hate each other. Regardless of individuality, both parties cannot get along.

Conclusion

I'm not saying brutes shouldn't return as enemies in future Halo games. With their race being genocided by the Elites, and the history between the two species it makes no sense for them to be at peace and team up. At least be fair, I think its a fair compromise for the Brutes to return but in a lore friendly way. If they are going to return as enemies in Halo, they NEED to be in a faction different from the Elite Covenant Remnant (Jul Mdama's faction).

Comments
Alertfiend (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
 * Where is it documented that they got into fistfights? And where does it say they hated each other from day 1?
 * The reason why Brutes are rarely seen with Elites is because they bring psychological warfare, while the elites do not.
 * When is it stated Doisac was attacked?
 * I do not think the Brutes ate the corpses.
 * Not everyone of a particular race have the same emotions towards another group, nor should they. Plus Jul is a psychopath.
 * Half of your "arguments" are flawed, come back when you think it through.


 * Where is it documented that they got into fist fights you ask? almost every peice of Halo lore depicts that there was rivalry between the Elites and Brutes in the Covenant Empire, how do you not know this? I can't dig up the exact quote where they got into physical fights (I'm not going to dig through     every Halo book to find it, but it is there). Read the article on Brutes and on Elites in this wiki and you will find evidence that there was rivalry and resentment towards each other when they were both in the Original Covenant Empire. Where is it documented that they hate each other since day 1? Almost every Halo story takes the chance it has to tell the player the relationship between Brutes and Elites.


 * -Halo 2, clearly showed they don't like each other and you don't even play a mission with brutes helping you. Not to mention the Brutes ate the Elite Councilors.
 * -ODST mentioned they don't like being around each other.
 * -Halo Headhunters mentioned they don't work together.
 * -Contact harvest mentioned that they have an ancient feud and don't like being around each other hence them being on different ships.


 * Seriously I list my sources, its not that hard to read.


 * Most importantly, you ask me, "when is it stated Doisac was attacked by Elites?" Here, read/watch Halo: The Return ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1kUy8MmBKY ) The Elites are currently genocidal killing off the Brutes, that is a canon fact. You are just not up to date with the Halo lore. Elites have gone to the Brute Homeworld in 2559 and are mopping up the brutes in an attempt to make them go exctinct? Why? Because they hate each other. Watch the video or read the book.


 * So yes, all my facts are correct, please re-respond once you have checked my sources and acknowledge that my facts are right. But really, all you need is to play and pay attention to Halo 2's story to understand the rivalry between the Brutes and Elites, its a critical part of the lore that you clearly missed.


 * None of my arguments are flawed, you are just not aware of the Halo lore between the Brutes and Elites rivalry. If you had known this, you would know that if Jul or Elites can't make peace with the Arbiter's Swords of Sanghelios (A fellow brother species), or the Humans, they would never have the mindset to forgive the Brutes, their most hated enemy of all. SpartanEdit0r (talk) 22:32, 28 August 2015 (EDT)


 * Brutes only recently joined so there is no ancient feud, that was to add character to their dislike of each other.
 * Where in the return did it say they attacked Doisac?
 * Where does it say they ate the councilors corpses? Although I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
 * Properly source your facts.
 * The Brutes were jealous of the Elites, and the Elites didn't like the Brutes because of their nature.
 * Do you even own Halo 2?
 * I don't think making two links to the same youtube video is linking your sources.
 * Alertfiend (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2015 (EDT)


 * -Brutes had an ancient fued in the Covenant Empire (I'm not talking about the Covenant remnant here). Sure brutes were the newest additions, but its been stated as a Halo fact that they had heavy rivalry.
 * -In Halo The Return right here (watch at this timestamp: https://youtu.be/8CqJNe_Uynk?t=14m19s 4:19) it depicts the Elites attacking Doisac and trying to genocide them.
 * -Alright, I'll try to organize my sources better, but my sources are correct and accurate. You do understand how hard it will be for me to read through Contact Harvest, Broken Circle, ect and dig up the exact quotes, right?SpartanEdit0r (talk) 23:01, 28 August 2015 (EDT)


 * That's not Doisac, and I am not saying they didn't have a rivalry, but your entire argument hinges on the idea that everyone hates everyone. Some individuals like Lydus and Ayit work with their peoples enemies to help their own people or just because they are sociopaths and want wealth, to hinge on the idea that grudges will always be held will mean the Humans and the Sangheili will never ally, which has already happened. Alertfiend (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2015 (EDT)


 * The reason there is such an entirity, is because the whole race was affected by the great schism. In Halo 2 the prophets ordered the Brutes to kill ALL the Elites on sight, and kick them ALL out of the Covenant. There would be no way for an Elite or Brute not to be affected by that unless they were living under a rock. Just like how events in our world when one group commits atrocities to another its not going to be easy for both groups to reconcile. How well do you think Israeli's would react to a neo-Nazi living in Jerusalem? Probably not very well and I imagine the same would apply with Brutes living on Sanghellios. You can rightly make the claim the Brutes and Elite's aren't single-minded, but after the Brutes murdered numerous Elites on High Charity, Delta Halo, New Mombasa, across the Covenant fleets and then ATE their corpses after slaying them, good luck reconciling that.


 * Jul (or any Elite) would have to find it in their heart to make peace with rival Elites (the Arbiter is a rival of Jul) first, their fellow kins would be easy to forgive as Elites have strong kinships. Then they would have to make peace with the Humans who have killed many of their people. Then after they have found it in them to make peace with fellow Elites and Humans, THEN maybe they could make peace with Brutes, who betrayed and back stabbed their fellow kin in cold blood (unlike humans who fought a face to face war).


 * Until we see Jul forgiving the Arbiter and Humans, and making peace with them. He won't be making peace with the Brutes who are on the top of every Elite's hate list (if they were awake at any point during Halo 2's events)SpartanEdit0r (talk) 23:36, 28 August 2015 (EDT)

YES, THEY CAN AND HAVE. You're wrong. You're acting like canon information should be discarded simply because you want things to be simpler and for all members of an entire species to act and believe the same.


 * First of all, cut the caps, its rude. Secondly, no it wouldn't work. Why would the Elite Covenant Remnant want the Brutes to join them, Elites hate Brutes post 2552. A Brute joining an Elite faction would be like a person of color trying to join a racist supremest group. It wouldn't work. If Jul Mdama doesn't have it in him to make peace with the Arbiter's Elite faction (fellow BROTHER Elites, Elites have a strong sense of kinship), or make peace with the Humans. How can you expect Jul Mdama to ever make peace with the sworn enemy of his species, the Brutes?


 * Also, why would the Brutes want to join the Elites in the first place? Regardless of individuality, the Elites are currently attacking the Brutes who have fallen into civil war, and trying to wipe out their species (source: https://youtu.be/pggwSIyA92Q?t=14m15s ). Why would a member of a species, want to join the very species that is trying to exterminate them? It makes no sense. Lets say your argument that some brutes don't hate Elites, sure, with a big population thats possible. But they would be so few in numbers, whats the point? And once again, it has to be a two way agreement, the Elites wouldn't want to accept them anyway.


 * The Brutes would be better off starting their own Covenant Remnant faction.SpartanEdit0r (talk) 23:19, 28 August 2015 (EDT)

I'm not sure why you care so much about a topic that's never been an issue. There's been nothing from Halo media claiming Brutes are joining Jul's remnant. It's as much a non-issue as the Flood joining the Covenant. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 20:03, 28 August 2015 (EDT)

There are some Brutes in his Covenant, as evidenced by Spartan Strike.

Okay. First off, the tone of this piece comes across as defensive and accusatory. Just saying, you may want to work on that in the future. Second, Glasslands, Spartan Strike, etc, are canon sources. Glasslands makes it explicitly clear that whatever misgivings you have about it, Brutes have continued to work with Elites in some limited numbers, albeit to serve their own purposes.

The Ealen talks were unresolved, with the possibility of at least some Brutes laying down their arms, in exchange for the Elites ignoring them. There are reasonable Chieftains out there. There are also probably plenty of genuinely religious Brutes who would ignore their age-old grudge against the Elites if it meant they got the chance to serve the will of the Living God and his Prometheans.

There are also probably plenty of Brutes who'd join up willingly as mercenaries - what reason do the traditionally un-pious Jackals have to work with Jul? Because he's paying. We know that the Brutes are themselves split along clan lines - to continue feuds even older than their grudge against the Elites, is it impossible to think some would turn to Mdama for weapons and ships, in exchange for being some battlefiend hired muscle? I doubt it.

And addressing your last remark: I'm not the one disregarding canonical sources. --  Qura 'Morhek   The Autocrat     of Morheka   21:45, 28 August 2015 (EDT)

This criticism is quite strange, because it seems to be very ignorant of what the UNSC-SoS alliance has to say for its claims.

"What species would want to join forces with a species that is genociding their species?"

Why this has to be asked is confusing me. Some humans were able to forgive some Elites, and these Elites renewed their beliefs in humans. This is after 27 years of genocidal war and bitterness. As far as I can see, any post war reconciliation that follows that will not outclass that in terms of how miraculous it is, including Brutes and Elites forgiving each other. In other words, given that humans and Elites are moving forward together, anything can happen now regarding anyone else including Grunts and Jackals, Drones and Huragok and Elites and Prophets.

There's several other things wrong here as well. You're acting like these species are forming, or have formed, monolithic civilizations around themselves. This is not true and was not implied in the Return. The Return said that some Sangheili shipmasters continued the fight wherever they could find Brutes, but not all, and this is consistent with the image now of Sangheili civilization being fragmented into several different factions (And they haven't attacked Doisac nor are being very successful fighting the Brutes as late as 2558; factual error on your part there I'm afraid). There is no "ALL Elites" doing anything with regards to any activity post war. It's very easy for Elites to accept Brutes over other Elites given the rather obvious ideological divide between these factions. Brutes may be brutes, but heretics are heretics. For Thel's faction, I don't think species is going to matter for them given that they are rather welcoming of humans now.

"Before somone says "not all members of a species will think the same way" keep in mind than in Halo 2, when the Great Schism happened, Brutes started killing ALL, Elites."

No, not all members will think the same way. Your attempts to override some of the most basic aspects of reality are not working. Are all Brutes warriors? Are all Elites? The Covenant is a very integrated society that almost treats its species like ethnicities, as opposed to sovereign nations. There's Brutes and Elites all over the shop, mostly civilian. Yes, there would probably have been race riots, but even in race riots there is not total conformity. These people would still have lives to take care of the next morning, which would be rather difficult if they were trying to murder everyone of the opposing species.

"It would not make sense for the Elites team up with the Brutes, who have had their entire species kicked out of the Covenant by the Brutes and countless betrayed/murdered in cold blood (Elites have a strong sense of kinship, and are angered when fellow brothers are betrayed) to forgive and work along side them."

Or, many Elites realized that after the genocide of humans they really didn't have a leg to stand on with regards to accusing anyone of similar crimes? Perhaps in the war to determine the future of the Covenant itself, Jul and Thel will do anything to win including making peace with former enemies from past meaningless disputes?

"Its good to see recent Halo novels such as Halo: Broken Circle aknowledge the hatred between the two species and properly understand the events of the Great Schism."

This is the same novel that has a friendship between a Sangheili Councilor and a Prophet Minister endure through the Schism even in spite of the mainstream Prophets aligning with Truth and Tartarus. I don't think it really supports your case, as it suggests individuality meaning something.

I feel as though I could write a similar diatribe for why it is canonically impossible for humans and Sangheili to team up using all the same arguments. It would be wrong though, just like this one is wrong. -Anton (talk) 19:37, 14 September 2015 (EDT)