Talk:SPARTAN-II program

Class-II
Although Halopedia has decided to remain largely ambiguous about the canonicity of the Class-II SPARTAN-IIs, I feel that we may have to look into the matter again.


 * 1) "Kelly had always been the fastest in their class." This is something John-117 thinks. He doesn't know of the SPARTAN-III program, therefore suggesting "class II".
 * 2) Although Halsey's funding was largely redirected to S-III, evidence suggests that when Alpha company was destroyed in 2537, she received enough funding for a class-II. This is shown by Yasmine Zaman being kidnapped for a SPARTAN program at age 6 and dying at age 14 in 2545, during augmentation procedures.
 * 3) Keep in mind that when Kurt-051 thinks that there will only be one class of SPARTAN-II, this is several years before their conscription.
 * 4) The "Personnel Intel reports" refer to Jorge-052 as a member of "the class of '25". If there was only one class of S-IIs to successfully be trained, why didn't they just call him a SPARTAN-II?
 * 5) Although Bungie originally designated "i love bees" as non-canon, they changed their minds later. They then said that they decided to have a canon expanded universe, and directly referred to ILB as canon. Keep in mind that this is the same speech that confirmed the novels as canon.
 * 6) Furthermore, the "Personnel Intel" and "Palace Hotel" suggestions are directly from Bungie.

calculation
28 SPARTAN-IIs are said to be at Reach - three of whom are at Gamma station. Excluding the secret "Black team", there are 33 SPARTAN-IIs officially surviving the augmentation process and remaining S-IIs.


 * From these 33, we remove "Sam", "Sheila"; "Solomon"; "Arthur"; "Cal" and "Randall" who are dead. That makes 27 at Reach.
 * Then, we subtract Jorge and Kurt, who were kidnapped. That's 25.
 * Maria retired. That's 24.
 * Mike; Adriana and Jai of Gray team were not at Reach.
 * Red team members "Douglas"; "Jerome" and "Alice" have been MIA since 2531. That makes 18 S-IIs officially available for Reach, and 15 officially on Reach - I don't know about "Keiichi"; "Daisy"; "Joseph" and "Ralph". Therefore; if Class-II exists, at least 13 SPARTAN-IIs must be class-II.

Please comment here.--  Fore  run  ner  15:02, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion
Just a side note, I don't think the B.net page with the information on the Reach characters is intended to be an excerpt from the CAA factbook. The factbook's in its own separate section and I doubt the colonial government would have files on individual Spartans like Jorge. As seen here, the information on the Reach "characters" page is likely intended to be from a military performance report, not the factbook which seems more like a civilian document. As for Class-II, the evidence seems solid. It's not 100% sure until they say it directly, but since ILB has been declared canon at least on some level, the existence of Class-II would make sense. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 15:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that CAA thing - I just noticed when you pointed it out. Anyway, we still have a lot of people who say that it's non-canon. Just look at the class-II section in the archive. I just felt that I should point out instances where it appears to be a confirmation.--  Fore  run  ner  15:07, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * When meeting each other, the generic multiplayer Spartans in Halo Wars occasionally say, "Another 2525 graduate, huh?". Like with Jorge's performance report, why say that unless there's another class? The original S-IIs did believe more Spartans were on the way, which was why Mendez left, which shows that they at least thought a second class existed. As for the number of S-IIs at Reach: Joseph, Daisy, and Ralph were reinstated after being retrieved; later, Daisy and Ralph died in the Harvest Campaign. However, as noted in Ralph's article, he was discharged after later augmentations. Scratch two more from the Autumn's contingent, ostensibly giving us 13 available Spartans. As many have theorized, Maria was almost certainly the one who was wounded beyond recovery; however, whether this is the true story or a cover for an ONI experiment *coughSPARTAN-2.1cough* is as yet unkown. Here's a counter argument: if some of the Spartans in Red Team during the Fall of Reach were indeed replacements from Class II, why wouldn't the others make any note of it? Keep in mind, however, that the re-relase of TFoR should finally resolve the numbers discrepancy, but don't get your hopes up for anything on the class of 2536. One more thing: Nassau Station - Nicole's stage from DoA 4 - was shown in the last issue of Uprising, so Class II could, hypothetically, experience a similar fate. --&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson 17:32, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. I just hope that the class of '45 and the extra SPARTANs be recognised.--  Fore  run  ner  17:39, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, just wanted to contribute to this discussion, I have some replies to your 'Class II' blurb, Forerunner. For your first point I would like to suggest that John-117 is not suggesting a Class II with his statement. He is simply referencing that they were in a class together, noting that they were part of the same group. For example, if a school opens in the fall of 2009 and you graduate as the smartest member of your class in the spring of 2010 and the school closes in the summer of 2010, you are still the smartest member of your class despite the fact that there have been no subsequent classes at all. To describe themselves as a class puts the Spartan's in a group and differentiates them from the rest of their fellow service men and women in the UNSC. To your second point, about Yasmine being from class II, do we know that for certain? The inauguration of Beta Company of Spartan III's was in 2537, the same year she was abducted, and she died in 2545, which is the earliest known date of Beta Company SIII being active.(Source is the date in the letter from LTCR. Kurt Ambrose to SCPO Franklin Mendez) Beta company could have finished been augmented and then in the feild in 2545, which is 6 years after their inauguration, lining up with the training time of Alpha Company SIII. To your third point, when CNL. Holland refers to Jorge as a graduate of the class of '25 remember that he also commands SIII's as the rest of the unit. Thus he would have knowledge of the Spartan III program. Perhaps to him a Spartan is a Spartan, regardless if they are SII or SIII and in order to distinguish them in his report, he distinguishes them from the year they 'graduated' from their class. Hope that all makes sense, Cheers, Rimnek 015 05:31, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

I haven't read the whole discussion, but in case it helps, a while ago I summarized what I know about the Class Two issue here. --Andrew Nagy 23:08, 1 February 2011 (EST)

6 years of age source
Okay, sorry to bug anyone, but I was kind of wondering how do we know that all 75 spartans are 6, I mean, there must be some 5 and 7 year olds in the mix, so I was wondering what the 6 years of age source was, please reply, thank you. (Jamesgg521 01:28, August 17, 2010 (UTC))


 * 2511 seems to be used as the birthyear for all - it really should be "c. 2511". Fall of Reach refers to them as six in 2517, and they are referred to as all being 14 in 2525 just before augmentations (First Strike). This is likely just an average age - obviously some are older than others and at least one was bound to be 7 at the beginning. -- Forerunner 01:34, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is stated in the Fall of Reach that all chosen SPARTAN-II's were taken from a very select group of age, and gene specific group of children, to fit Dr. Halsey's plan for them. And they are all stated as being 6 years old in Chapter 3 of the Fall of Reach. VadersFist666 01:36, August 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I recall that a couple were listed as being slightly younger or older. Darthkenobi0(talk) 01:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Able to be infected?
Johnson was a Spartan-I, and his bio-augmentations rendered him immune to the flood, but if the Spartan-IIs recieved the same or better augmentations, why wasn't John-117 immune to the flood infection as well,as on page 323 of The Flood it states the infection form had already shoved the penetrator in when Cortan zapped it. Why were John's superiorly augmentated genes able to be mutated but not Johnson's? The differences and similarities between John and Johnson's augmented charictaristics would logically make John's neurological system to appear to have recieved "irreparrable damage" as well as Johnson's. --Turbogruntman117 14:51, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * His SPARTAN-I augmentations did not make him immune from the Flood; the so-called Flood-proof Boren Syndrome is simply a cover-up by ONI to hide off actual information about the SPARTAN-I. Every human is susceptible to being a Flood host, even SPARTANs. Why Johnson is not infected in Halo: Combat Evolved can be explained in Halo Graphic Novel; in the story, we can see that Johnson shrugged off the Infection Form, thus saved from transforming into a Flood form.-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 14:58, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you are saying that everyone and everything else that did become flood infected did so because thay did'nt do enough 'shrugging'?I think the truth is in the boren syndrome, perhaps its life threatening, possibally terminal, a reason the infection forms passed him up but he would still be considered a threat, that made him a target for the combat forms.
 * "they passed me up like I was undercooked spinach in turkey dinner"- Sgt Johnson, Halo First Strike. Realisticaly the infection forms would come at u like the face huggers from Aliens cept these came at u by the hundredsDARKSTORM99 18:28, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * "they passed me up like I was undercooked spinach in turkey dinner"- Sgt Johnson, Halo First Strike. Realisticaly the infection forms would come at u like the face huggers from Aliens cept these came at u by the hundredsDARKSTORM99 18:28, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. This makes everything you know redundant and false.-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 18:31, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Number of Spartans in FOR/FS and the Rest of the Universe
Hello all. With the current buzz about Halo: Reach it got me thinking about the story of Reach that we know so far, and got me thinking about some discrepancies in the number of Spartans II’s present on Reach during Reach’s fall. I originally jumped on the ‘Number of Spartan II’s is messed up’ bandwagon when I considered a machinima depicting the Beta team of Spartans defending the generators. I wanted to make it as canon as possible and so wanted to make sure I got the number of Spartans down pat. Having recently read through the relevant sections of the books, I did some math and thought I could enlighten you as to my results.

So when I added up all of the Spartans on the list provided in the article that made it through augmentation, I got 36 Spartans total, not that far off the mark of what FOR and FS state, which is 33.

7 Spartans are KIA pre-FOR: Daisy-023, Sam-034, Solomon-069, Arthur-079, Cal-141, Ralph 303 and Sheila 1 Spartan is Ret/WIA pre-FOR: Maria-062 3 Spartans are MIA pre-FOR: Kurt-051, Jorge-052 and Randall

Therefore 11 Spartans are KIA/WIA/MIA before the Fall of Reach leaving 25 Spartans alive for Reach, Close to the FOR statement of 28, but off of the FS insinuation of 30

3 Spartans are on a mission too far to be recalled pre-FOR: Jai-006, Adriana-111 and Mike (Gray Team) 3 Spartans are possibly on board the Spirit of Fire pre-FOR: Douglas-042, Jerome-092 and Alice 130 (Halo Wars-Red Team) 4 Spartans are in an unknown location pre-FOR: Black One, Black Two, Black Three and Victor-101 (Black Team)

(This is where it starts to get hairy!) Therefore; 22 Spartans are available to be on Reach if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present. 19 Spartans are available to be on Reach if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present. 18 Spartans are available to be on Reach if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present. 15 Spartans are available to be on Reach if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

Moving on to the Fall of Reach

3 Spartans Deploy to Gamma Station: Linda-058, John-117 and James (Blue Team)

Therefore Red team has;

19 Spartans if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present. 16 Spartans if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present. 15 Spartans if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present. 12 if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

4 Spartans are KIA during the drop to the surface: Malcolm-059 and 3 others

Therefore the number of Spartans that survive the drop are; 15 Spartans if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present. 12 Spartans if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present. 11 Spartans if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present. 8 Spartans if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

Red team is split up;

3 Spartans form Team Alpha: Joshua-029, Kelly-087 and Fred-104 3 Spartans form Team Gamma: Li-008, Anton-044 and Grace-093 6 Spartans form Team Delta: Vinh-030, Isaac-039, Will-043 and 3 others

Therefore Team Beta is composed of; 3 Spartans if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present. 0 Spartans if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present. -1 Spartan if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present. -4 Spartans if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

I think according to the information that we have available here; it is most likely that Black Team and HW-Red Team were present during the Fall of Reach. However there is still room for Speculation;

If FOR is right and there are 25 Spartans not including Gray team, then there are 3 more Spartans that need to be accounted for/named. If this is the case then it would push the number of Spartans that survived Augmentation to 39. It would also mean that Beta Team would have 6 members.

If FS is right and there are 30 Spartans not including Gray team, then there would be 8 more Spartans that need to be accounted for/named. If this is the case then it would push the number of Spartans that survived Augmentation to 44. This would also mean that Beta Team would have 11 members.

I think of the two possible scenarios, the 25 Spartans mentioned in FOR is probably the most accurate. This also works if you take into account 30 deaths during Augmentation and 6 Disabled: Rene-005, Kirk-018, Soren-066, Cassandra-075 and Fhajad-084. This adds up to a total of 74 Spartans, leaving room for one more. I think also that it was more likely that more Spartans were crippled than were killed, so some of the Spartan’s in the ‘died during Augmentation’ category were actually misapplied and did not die but were crippled and fall into the disabled category.

Some questions I hope that would be answered are:

-What is the official number of Spartan II’s on Reach participating in Dr. Halsey’s Mission? Which Canon Source is correct, the canon compilation by fans, FOR or FS?

-Was Black Team present on Reach when it fell?

-Was the Halo-Wars Red Team on Reach when it fell?

-If Black Team/and or the HW-Red Team were not present, on Reach, who was to fill their spots?

-Are Black Team/and or HW-Red Team actually Canon?

-What is the total number of Spartan II’s? How many were crippled by the Augmentation? How many were killed by it? sdsHow Many ‘Graduated’?

Thats all for now, Cheers, Rimnek 015 06:50, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't have any of the comics, but from memory reading the article I think Black Team was excluded from the official roster, declared "dead" during augmentation and reassigned and reequipped separately from the rest of the Spartan-II's. Both Black Team and the original Red Team are canon, as much as some people would like to ignore them, though some of the aesthetic additions are not - shields, for example. I doubt Red Team would have been on Reach - they were left drifting in space thousands of lightyears from human space, too far for a retrieval force to find them. As for the official "canon" number of Spartans in total, who survived augmentation, and survived until 2552 - the numbers are so contradictory that I find myself hard pressed to consider the original figures still canon. --  Specops306   Autocrat     Qur'a 'Morhek   08:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just occured to me while reading, the list of S-IIs is missing Unnamed Spartan (Harvest) And Yes I know his existance is disputed, but he is canon. SomethingDifferent 11:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I haven't made a detailed comparison with your list, but in case it helps, I tried to make a similar list a while ago here, somewhat hampered by not having gone through every story (in particular Blood Line and Reach). I don't remember why I had Black Team at Reach, though, since you'd think their knowledge of the Forerunners and Flood would've got through to Cortana and made some kind of difference in Halo 1, same as with the Halo Wars crew. --Andrew Nagy 23:18, 1 February 2011 (EST)

James' Designation
The latest Halo Waypoint video Defiant to the End, which discusses the defiant maps and their relation to the fiction, gives James' SPARTAN tag as 005, however the tag already belongs to Rene. I was wondering how do we approach this. Do we switch it around and give James the tag and leave Rene's blank or should it be left as it? Durandal-217 15:07, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

I would say not to change it yet until this is figured out-Forgive My English 15:09, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * Looking at it now, if it is in fact official, it means that the license plate egg in ODST is in fact, canon. Which would mean that Rene's tag is actually Rene-081. Durandal-217 15:18, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

So looks like this a retcon what says shes 081?-Forgive My English 15:20, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * The License Plate Eggs as found in Halo 3: ODST. the Halo Encyclopedia seemed to had retcon the license plates, however given the absolute blunder that book was it's possible that the tags in there are also an error. Durandal-217 15:28, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

I agree-Forgive My English 15:30, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * The video in question explicitly identifies James as James-005, which is consistent with the license plate Easter egg. The video should certainly take precedence over the Encyclopedia. We just need to make a note about the discrepancy on James' and René's respective articles. --&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson 16:18, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * Wasnt Rene given that designation first?-Forgive My English 16:49, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * No. ODST - and thus the license plate Easter eggs, in which James' "-005" tag first appeared - was released before the Encyclopedia. Regardless, the Waypoint video explicitly identifies James as James-005. Newer, explicit canon overrides older material from a sloppy reference work. It seems that 343i has canonized the Easter egg as James' official tag. --&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson 17:30, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * Per Braidenvl, it appears that 343i has acknowledged that the error made in the Encyclopaedia and supported the H3:R Easter Egg. As such, the two articles should be renamed to reflect this.— subtank  17:37, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * I'd just like to point out that the tag detail wasn't sloppily made for the Encyclopedia - 343i was making the encyclopædia at the same time as ODST and would not have been aware of the easter egg.--  Fore  run  ner '' 18:55, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
 * [citation needed ] — subtank  19:01, 18 March 2011 (EDT)


 * So it would be alright to change the tags? Just want to be sure before I did anything. Durandal-217 22:01, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

Nicole and Class-II confirmed Canon
So as you may know, I got a message from Evil Otto saying that Nicole is canon, but her appearance in DoA4 is non canon. Also a Bungie.net user by the name of "Spartan 100" was able to get 343i to say the same thing. http://halo.xbox.com/forums/general/f/10/p/5486/48766.aspx#48766 I want to discuss how many potential Class-II there are. Here is what I think: 150 Class-I Candidates 75 Conscripted

Now notice that even though 75 are conscripted, it is "random." You have 117, which is nowhere near #75. Now I suggest, that Class-II just added onto the count. So it started from: 151-458. That is if though Nicole was the last candidate on the list. Not including Janisary, Nicole and Yasmine, there is a pool of 305 candidates (308 total)

Also it could be possible that Halsey never knew the existance of Class-II, just like she never knew of S-IIIs. Now this part is just pure theory but I believe that Class-II may have been funded by private corporations (like Robocop.) Private corps did develop MJOLNIR suits, so why not fund Class-II? EchostreamFanJosh


 * Note that Candland is only a UI artist and, previous users said, his words cannot be taken as actual fact since he has contradicted much in the past. Vociferous, who is part of the team in charge of maintaining canon, provided the following:


 * This does support Candland's comment but also points out that she is based on a "real" and properly defined Spartan. Also note that he refers "that Spartan" instead of Nicole herself. This puts Nicole as being canon, in the sense that she is an alternate version of another Spartan, and not canon, in the sense that she does not exist in the Halo Universe. As such, to conclude, Nicole-458 is not canon in the Halo Universe.— subtank  08:14, 27 April 2011 (EDT)


 * I guess it's open for debate. If Vociferous says she is based on a real and properly defined Spartan, I think it's reasonable to conclude that "properly defined Spartan" is called Nicole-458; if this canon character that Nicole is based on was entirely different, there would be no reason for Voc to say she's based on a canon Spartan; he could've just outright dismissed everything about her as non-canon. Even though the events of DOA4 are obviously non-canon, and the canonicity of some of her character details like liking halo-halo and anime are debatable, I don't think we can dismiss the character herself being entirely non-canon anymore. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 08:28, 27 April 2011 (EDT)


 * Perhaps this would be more along the lines of Alternate Universe concept (ala The One), where Nicole-458 is the same individual in another universe. To put it simply, Mister Chief is Master Chief. That is what I understand from Vociferous' comment. Also, the only reason why I dismiss her being non-canon is simply Vociferous' use of "that Spartan" in his comment. Why "that Spartan"? Typing "the" is easier and faster than "that".
 * Hopefully my comments make some sense. :| — subtank  08:41, 27 April 2011 (EDT)


 * To put it simply, I view it as how some of the characters in Odd One Out are canon, like John, Keyes and Cortana, but their appearance in the episode is obviously not. Nicole's canonicity is a little more elusive since she hasn't appeared previously in actual canon material unlike the characters in Odd One Out, but I guess Vociferous' comment is up to interpretation. Maybe someone who has an account on the Waypoint forums could ask for further clarification. However, from the way I see it, I think what we can safely assume to be canon regarding Nicole are only the basic details, like her name, Spartan tag and possibly her birthday and such. Removing the basic things (there are very few details to begin with) would make her a different character altogether and there would be no point for Vociferous to claim she was based on a canon Spartan. --Jugus (Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 08:51, 27 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Totally forgotten about Odd One Out, which would be the best example for this discussion. :/
 * But anyway, yes, those details are along the lines of his comment. :) — subtank  09:01, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

I agree. Odd One Out featured several canon characters making a non-canon appearance. This is what sparked my interest in looking into this issue about Nicole. Of course we all know that 1337 is pure non-canon so nobody should even address the issue on him. Now because of this there is a huge damn "debate" on the existence of Class-II. Class-II I guess is now "more" canon. Of course you can come up with several theories on why Halsey didn't train Class-II. It could be possible that Agnes worked on Class-II. Or it could be possible that Class-II is funded by a private organization (future Wal-mart lol.) As far as Agnes goes, it's never stated whether she's working on S-IIIs or Class-II. But honestly I will have to go with Class-II. It seems Kurt is the Halsey of the S-IIIs and Mendez just stayed the same. EchostreamFanJosh