Talk:Flood Juggernaut

For the Love of!
First of all, store some of the old conversations. Second of all, the Juggernaut is most likely a combination of infected bodies and Flood Biomass. It would have been the Flood's equivalent to a Hunter, although with a melee emphasis, not a Fuel Cannon one.-- page/contribs 02:32, April 24, 2010 (UTC)



Speculation
Some theories put forward by fans

*Prophits*
I think that the Juggernaut is an infected form of a prophit.--NIGHTMARE


 * I don't see the similarity. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 21:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Dragonclaws The prophets are too small for them to become a juggernaut. Perhaps It's a mixture between combat forms? --User:Deathfrye

Hunters

 * See article
 * Wow why would people think it's a Hunter, that is prety stupid.--prophit of war 14:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Could it be that is is a SPARTAN-II that was infected?
 * No. Spartans, enhanced though they may be, are still just human. That thing is pretty inhuman, and much bigger than the Chief. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 19:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

it CAN be a hunter, every worm whould have to be infected though, they have been shown to indect every specis but hunters and engeiners. think about it. the 'body' of the hunter has more worms, so bigger mass, the arms have less worms, so they whould be thinner.

To both the above and bellow comment, the entire hunter could be used as food, biomass, but their are two problems with the hunter theory: 1. the hunter has no calcium, which the flood need. 2. the hunters worms would each have to be infected, requiring them to have both calcium, biomass, and a central nervous system, which neither lekgolo, nor Earth worms have. --Kre &#39;Nunumee 01:19, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Well, I still think there hunters ... some reasons :

1. if you watch the 'YouTube Flood Juggernaut fight video' you can see that there are 2 juggernauts, and hunters also 'work' in pairs.

2. maybe hunters also have tentacles, you can't see because they have always a heavy armor.

3. the form of the juggernaut doesn't need to be like the form of a hunter because hunters appear to be composed of multiple organisms that exists within the hunter armor.


 * These multiple organisms are each about the size of the infection forms, have no calcium stores for the Flood to feed on, and even if the Flood could infest them the Juggernaut doesn't look like a worm colony. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 19:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * because of the possibilities, the flood juggernaut could be mixed with other hosts (for the ribs) and were strong and big enough to absorb the hunter (amourless of course), to have the hunters brain pattern, aggresiveness of the brute, higher jumping like other F C forms... fludz &#39;carnttuchmee 14:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

My best guess is that the juggernaut is actually the prototype for the pure tank form. Think about it R+ GOTTLOS
 * IT CANT BE A HUNTER because hunters are a "hive" of smaller worm like creatures formed together to make the hunter and is stated on halopedia's hunter page that it is in fact impossible for a hunter to be infected
 * It seems like it is an advanced Tank Form. Or although I have never seen one in action, it could be a Drinol! But how could it possible be a Hunter?! I mean an Infection Form is much bigger then the worms it's made out of. It could also have been specifically made to act like a tank. What I mean by that is, the Gravemind saw that the Flood needed more help in this battle so he specifically made (remember, the Gravemind has COMPLETE control over the Flood, and that probably means he has control over the mutation as well) a Infection Form infect someone differently! Specifics. He got like 12 Infection Forms to go into 12 different people, but he made them transform them differently, then combine them together to make these things. But in order to make it stronger he had to compress these 12 people(this could mean Elite, Human, Brute, etc.) into a small(making 12 people like 12ft tall is kinda hard) being. So it probably took the Gravemind to much time to make and send to the battlefield, so after the Battle of Installation 05 he came up with a new idea of how to make these monsters. And those became Tank Forms!Thank you taking time to listen to my post! 01:22, June 7, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!!

Old Tank Form?
Old Tank Form? or Another Pure Form? --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)(UNSC Mision Log) 02:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Combination of several Combat Forms?
Some fans also believe it could be a combined form of several Combat Forms.

Natural Life Cycle of Flood?
It could also be a more mature stage of the Flood, since Flood do age into Carrier Forms over time, this could be the stage after Combat but before Carrier, hence its shape.
 * Yes, I was thinking something along the lines of a more advanced/fully mutated Combat form as well.

Mobile Brain Form?
Is it possible the Juggernaut is a mobile Brain Form? It is phsyically similar to the form seen on the Truth and Reconcilation which infected Captain Keyes. --CrzyAznSprtn 16:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why would they use it for fighting then?


 * Perhaps that's why Bungie removed the Juggernaut or maybe they're like extensions of the Gravemind so his control of the Flood can stretch further. Who know's, I was just thinking.

--CrzyAznSprtn 16:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a distinct possibility that the Juggernauts are the flood infection form of the Engineers. There is a startling resemblance in the shape of the central body, number of tentacles (four on the Engineer, two on each side of the Juggernaut at the base of the larger tentacles), and both species were deleted from the game. However another theory is It is made of multiple flood As the foot appears to be a Human Combat Form

actually that could be a flood improvision. it could be possible that the flood cannot harness the ability of floating like the engineers. these infected engineers merged with combat forms to support it and allow it to travel. so despite the negative of the human foot there is still a great chance that the juggy is an infected engineer. user:gil demoono

IS it Drinol?
POV stuff about it not being a Drinol. There's is no current official explanation for what a Juggernaut is, so don't add what you think. Personally, I think its just a bunch of Carriers combined, but I'm not going to add that, because its speculation. Irkallabyss


 * I don't think it's a Drinol but if it's an Engineer they're non combatent maybe the flood modify their bodies like if a lifeforms body is useless to the flood they modify them probably. I mean the flood human forms are abveously modified with their heads like that. So maybe that's it I admit it's speculation.--prophit of war 22:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's a Drinol, because remember how the carrier forms are disfigured grunts? Well it looks like it could just be very disfigured with tentacles where its arms should be, but instead of sprouting from the arms like most combat forms, this case it totally replaces them. Or, maybe it's an entirely new species.--FRAG3TH


 * Too bad they don't show the flood changing creatures ingame--prophit of war 15:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure they're not Drinol because Drinol are probably bigger than that. You know, on the H2 CE dvd they said it's to big to fight and you're able to fight the juggernaut.--prophit of war 18:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's an engineer either, engineers are described as floating gaseous blobs, this thing has legs and a rib cage. Yes, the flood can alter a body, but I doubt they could alter the entire sekeltal structure. My guess is that Bungie wanted a super strong Flood form, but couldn't think of any host to stick it into, so they cut it. 24.254.47.90 01:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Could it be a Sharquoi?

Possibly....

I think it's a Drinol/Sharquoi (since they're probably the same thing). I don't think it can be an engineer because they don't have legs. --File:Final Goji.jpg|40px]] Lordofmonsterisland  "Roar to me"  14:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Are they Brutes?

 * It's a flood brute
 * I don't think so, they look to big.--prophit of war 14:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe that was why they were deleted
 * if a carrier is bigger than a grunt/jackel/etc, then it could be a flood brute fludz &#39;carnttuchmee 16:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

There not brutes

Offspring of Gravemind
I think it could be either an offspring of gravemind or even a pre-mature form. It has tentacles like gravemind. Kerek 03:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the Juggernaughts are pure Flood, nothing else and HUNTERS DO NOT HAVE A RIB CAGE the juggernught however does. and they certainly aren't brutes or a infected spartan. If it was a spartan where did it come from? and to prove they aren't Hunters we must bring up the worm thing. a hunter is just a bunch of small tiny worms... Bakas...

Duskstorm 16:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * hold on, ***checks flood database***, the juggernaut cannot be made of "pure" flood, the only "pure" flood is the infection forms, and unless they take a brute-sized pack of steroids, the infection forms will not grow to a flood juggernaut! (otherwise flood infection forms wouldn't need a host) fludz &#39;carnttuchmee 17:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

There is other pure forms now. It could just be an offshoot of the Gravemind, or he created it as the equivalent of hunters, heavy tank unit. It could be special ops flood, sent to stop the chief, or the prophets, or specialised completely for enforcers Honor Guard Reborn

Oversized drone
to me, the third-top-left looks like a drone; thin legs, sensors sprouting out of the mouth, it would be too heavy to fly, drones could have a bigger adult form?

also, it's got a reason for the low amount of flood juggernauts in the vid for spawning... flood infection forms can't fly nor jump very high...

i think that the drone has bones, there's no bendy legs on the drone...

Where is it
Where is it? I'm probably the only one here who can survive the entire game on legiondary without dying, ever! Ah I love Invincibility cheats plus being able to turn the skulls off and on before I play, well anyway I wanta fight it. So can somebody tell me where the hell it is. It looks like a good way to test how powerfull my cheats are.--prophit of war 22:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Bungie cut it out, but left the data in the disc. You have to mod it into a level. BTW, someone beat the whole game on Legendary without dying once, and he did it without mods. Although, he did take shortcuts Bungie probably didn't intend. --Dragonclaws 23:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, shortcuts, although I used cheats but still that Juggernaut in that video looked powerful and thats what I meant. But since my brother does the mods and I do the cheats, I guess I can't beat it since my brother won't mod for me after he deletes them, untill he puts them back atleast.--prophit of war 14:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

So can you get it without modding?

No, you can't. And besides, my friend modded it once, in legendary, he couldn't make it past the thing, he only modded it into existence, nothing else, so he fought normally. He moved a muscle and the thing would have him flying to the other side of high charity...Not something you want to meet...Although it is entertaining

Its possible to kill them if you pay attention to how they attack. Just avoid the tenticles and use what ever heavy weapons you got. My first try i killed one (got lucky as the second one killed me and sent me flying across the room).-- 02:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Halo 3
"And some big thing" I remember being in a halo 3 interveiw about what we will be fighting, GASP! a new species!

Anyways its more likely that its a combo of multiple forms. --Lt.O&#39;Brien 16:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Modding Halo 2
I know that there are a lot of things you can do with the mods, (like the gold warthog) but how do you actually mod the game? It isnt out on the PC, so do you have to mod the xbox, or the actual disk?


 * I don't know the specifics, but you do have to open up your Xbox and tinker with it. Due to the abuse of mods, Xbox Live will automatically ban the account of anyone using a modded Xbox, which is why modders like to have two. Dojorkan's a modder, and could probably answer any other questions you have about it. -- Dragonc laws ( talk ) 10:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Modding your xbox allows you to copy and FTP the .map files to your PC. Then you can use apps found at the utilities section of halomods to actually tinker with the .map files. --Dojorkan 12:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Or you can just download mods into your chip hm? thats what I do. user:the evil O,malley

In Halo 3
my theory is that the flood Juggernaut will be in Halo 3 here's why:

1.On the the halo 2 bonus dvd where it talks about the characters that were cut out there is no mention of the Juggernaut. Possibly meaning it wasnt completely cut out of the series game-wise.

2. Frankie talks about playing campaign and gives us a list of things he sees. at one point he mentions a large bad guy in the backround.

3. It is also said there will be a new enemy "larger than a grunt". It didnt say around the size of a grunt but larger. This is to keep us guessing at it's true size.

My guess is Bungie was pushed to release halo 2 a lot and thay didnt have time to finnish the death animation of the juggernaut so they had to take him out but chose to not mention him in the hopes of surprising us with it in Halo 3.-Guy who like Elites.

Agreed. I bet we'll see it in Halo 3 at some point. If not, I think the flood will be pretty boring unless they get a MAJOR overhaul (like the Brutes... now that I think of it, OMG!!! Nightmare scenario: the Flood in Halo 3 are even tougher than the Brutes.

"Flood tougher than Brutes"?
 * Nightmare scenario = yes
 * Chance to prove how awesome you are = totally
 * Make you need to wash your pants = obviously

-- Lordofmonsterisland "Roar to me"  23:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well... Halo 3 is out, and, well. YOUr therie was wrong, UNLESS!!! Its a Halo 2 Tank form!! --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)(UNSC Mision Log) 22:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Flood Juggernaut a mass of bodies
The flood juggernaut could be a mass of bodies formed just like a brain form but made just for combat hey just tell me what you think

Theroy
First off they didn't have it on the deleted disc because it is a Halo 3 specias. Reveling who the host is will ruin the suprise. If it was a spartan it would look like a Human combat form with a few tanish pieces of Mjolinir, hunters is impossible. Now engieners 50/50 probility but only made up if diffrent hosts. Brutes are too small but even though they can alter their host they can't add that much power to a flood form. So most likly a new or unheard of deleated speacis is the host or multiple host. The Consumed   ,The Dead   ,and Living  File:ESE.JPG|20px]] 02:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

All of you are idiots
Its so obvious....a Juggernaut is just a bunch of Flood put together...--User:JohnSpartan117 05:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Were not stupid! That was along time ago NOOB!! The Evil O&#39;malley 05:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice. Have a flame war over stupidity and misspell "we're".--File:Glider.png|20px]] ΓΣH ÜBΣR  Ð1G1P4ΓÐ  File:sm_battle_rifle.gif]] 19:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe starting out as a Carrier form. I see a resemblance --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)(UNSC Mision Log) 22:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Forerunner
It could be a forerunner. Or the remanis of a forerunner that they copied using the same method that they use to make brain or command flood.

I was about to say the same thing... It has bones and Flood do not have bones...

Bloodstar 19:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right, the Flood don't have bones, but the organisms they infect do.--File:Glider.png|20px]] ΓΣH ÜBΣR  Ð1G1P4ΓÐ  File:sm_battle_rifle.gif]] 19:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it could very well be Bungie wanting to show us what an infected Forerunner looked like Heroic Wolf

What is Absolutely Known
For more information, one can just go to page 142 of The Art of Halo and read the fine print. (The Juggernaut is older than "Dervish"!) --File:Glider.png|20px]] ΓΣH ÜBΣR  Ð1G1P4ΓÐ  File:sm_battle_rifle.gif]] 15:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Juggernaut on Oracle?
In the article is says that a Juggernaut form on the level the Oracle is visible below the floor. I have seen what is supposed to the Juggernaut, but I don't believe it's a Juggernaut. For one thing, it doesn't look to be tall enough to be a Juggernaut form. Also, it don't have the shape of a Juggernaut form. Would someone else look this up and tell me what they think? 14:49, 10 July 2007

Ive also tried to see it and in my opinion its not a juggernaut but just infected elite combat forms, but since wikis dont support opinion Im SOL

Yeah I put up the first comment. It's elite combat forms. I don't know who said it was a Juggernaut. With somebody modding to see through the glass, (which i'm sure so one will) we may never know 100%. Trooper117 23:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Try Dojorkan. If there's anyone on Halopedia who can get a view from beneath the glass, he's probably the man to go to. --The Dark Lord Azathoth 23:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Its not a jug there, you can sword cancle through the glass, everything in that room is a combat form because you can kill them and break the bodies, no juggernaut as they don't break. --Pileyourbodies 01:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Theory: Juggernaut is an ammasment of bodies
I think the Juggernaut is a collection of several differnt combat forms, much as how a Brain form is formed. The Juggernaut is far too big to be a Brute and impossible and still to big for a Hunter. I've noticed it sports strange features, the feet seem like Grunt feet or something coming from the Brute, the leg structure resembles nothing we know of, but how it's formed is like an Elite, but may be unrelated. it may just be for the extended jump height(they jump like 30 feet in the air). An amassment may also explain the several tentacles in the "brain" portion. Also note how the body looks so incomplete. As if it can be "filled up"

I will try and post a final version tomarrow, and I have some devcam screenshots that could help. User: HaloFighter92

That theory may actually be true... It appears to be like a brute with combined with engineers.AJ 00:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It might be a form in between the pre-gravemind and gravemind forms, or before the pre-gravemind form

There is no juggernaut on Oracle
Just to clear it up, there is no juggernaut on Oracle. I looked in the spot under the glass where people think it's at via devcam, but it's not there. user:HaloFighter92

There is something down there though... it was big... I saw something when I played that level.AJ 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

How could you see anything? To me the floor is frosted over worse than a window on a cold morning. -- Lordofmonsterisland "Roar to me"  00:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It is frosted; but you can see the outline of something big. I did. You can see it with like a whole bunch of combat forms and carrier forms around it and the thing is killing elites.AJ 00:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I used a devcam, as in I disconnected the camera from Arbiter and I went through the glass and looked everywhere in the room, I even freezed it just to make sure nothing disappeared. The juggernaut wasn't even tagged for that level, as my freind found out, no spawn points and no coding for it to appear on that level. But it was set to be on High Charity, it was in there but no spawns were made for it. user: HaloFighter92

Ah... nice. well, i did see something big... but ah well. you proved that it does not exist... can you post the pics?AJ 02:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I could, but it's nothing interesting, really. It's just like the other room after the elevator ride just without the things with the turrets on them and such, no windowed parts either. I did make one (here) to view a Flood Combat Form in the heavy fog. In fact that might've been what you saw was big, merely a Combat form leaping and with the heavy fog you might of think it was a large creature user: HaloFighter92

Yeah I don't know who put that on the page, but they needed to look into it more. I personally watched the battle below the glass serval times and everytime I saw something big, but not big enough to be the Juggernaut. Trooper117 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What if the flood juggernaut was like a special type of infection form that could infect several things? a or it could be like a carrier,or what if it was a flood infected Forunner? with Halo you never know! From General Tater

Eh, I don't exactly agree with that theory. If it was a carrier, it would just explode instead of fight. And before you answer, the lumps do not make it a carrier. Juggernauts existed before the flood became more organized like they were in Halo 3, which is why it is all lumped together. And it can't be an infection form, as infection forms are much smaller, and you can see about 6 tentacles coming out of that hole in its body. Infection forms are weak, and can only infect, and are small, not gigantic, bulbous brown creatures with deadly tentacles and bone-like legs. They resemble corpses stuffed together rather than the average infection form you would see.--Shade  21:54, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

A Walking corpse Pile
what if juggernauts were like a grave mine or a flood brain. both are made of multiple corpses collected by the flood just like in The Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor in the Halo Graphic Novel. --Hydraman 21:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

== What the walk motion? Flood juggernauts are very tall but what I don't understand is why they walk so funky!Now they are very much humanoid yet they are so tall.But then again they are humanoids so they should might as well walk like a human.

Pure Form?
The Halo 3 Bestarium suggests a Flood "Pure Form." Perhaps the Juggernaut is linked to this somehow. -- Hunter-113 12:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added a section called Pure Form to the Flood article talking about the Pure Form. If there is confirmation that the Juggernaut is a Pure Form, someone will need to merge those sections later. -- Darth Batrus 13:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * could the flood juggernaut be the pure form tank type flood? File:Halo_Scarab_Large.jpg|35px]] Fludz 'Carnttuchmee Kamekazi eliteGrunty friends! 15:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably.Trooper117 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The tank form was probably inspired by this guy.--The Evil O&#39;malley 19:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Easily, they perform the same role as you would expect. They also both have the sharp things at the end of their arms. And my screenshot of the Defensive "X" postion suggests it needed to heavily protect its "head" Kinda like the Tank Form in Halo 3.User:HaloFighter92

A pure form is 'Pure', as in completely flood constructed. Many people have commented that a pair of ribs are clearly visible on them. I think of the two forms as cheese. Fresh cheese as newly converted milk, to combat forms as newly converted life; then reconstituted spray cheese (i.e. Kraft), to reconstituted flood cells. =P 01:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

True Proto-Gravemind?
I know they're currently calling the brain forms from Halo:CE and the HGN 'proto-Graveminds,' but wouldn't this be a better explanation than amalgamated variants of infected hosts? I mean, you have the tentacles and the core body with a prominent aperture/orifice. Granted, it's not exactly Mr. Little Shop of Horrors, but it's still close.

This could be a larval (immature) Gravemind form. You can explain portions of the anatomy by referring to the LF.Xx.3273 Flood Super Cell, as Flood have demonstrated an ability to "arrange these FSCs to mimic any organ they might need."

It shares some visual traits with the Pure Tank form, but not exclusively.

Just more speculation to add to the mix.

~Leonidas-001

Infected Huragok
Think about it, they could be infected Huragoks, comprised of a few biped bodies, a Huragok, and another creature. They are slightly bulbous, and have tentacles. 1001Human 20:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That can't be true. Huragoks are not lifeforms, they are made of microscopic "nanorobots" that form together enough for them to resemble skin. Besides, huragok don't have legs.lovemuffin 22:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

actually flood only needs calcium, could it be possible that these nanobots contains trace amounts of calcium. since these bots are so small and tightly packed they could be mistaken as organics and stay togethor due to their tightness. as for the legs, as so fervishly discussed here, these could made up of combat forms. the flood would do this to support a greater entity (the juggernaut), just as a grunt would commit suicide for the great journey

Heres an important question, are they even canon?
After all they were cut, and they are not mentioned in any Canon Material. So I can't see how they are Canon. SilverSword 17:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Could it of been held back
Left on the covenant home world but be just a modified version of Hunter(two of them) cross Elite ? so has The elites brain smarts & the double strength & durability of two Hunters but why was it left out of halo 3 would have been a cool boss .. . Praetor HellionVulcan 12:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

uhhh why would the covenent modify the flood?

A flood when it is transforming into a brain form?
It's arms and legs could grow to be the small tenticles that stick out of the brain form. Maybe it grows such powerful arms to protect it while it grows into a brain form. Maybe it transforms by just sitting there and letting other flood bring dead bodies to it so they can combine with it. This would explain why in halo 2 they just sit there.

this actually seems very probable, bungie may have not made no death animation for it because of it being cut but to support your exact theory. it protects itself with the tentacles and is a threat, but when enough damage is taken and the situation looks grim it freezes and "plays dead" waiting for combat forms to reemberse it with biomass and fooling enemy into thinking that the foe is defeated

Size
In the main article, it states the Flood Juggernaut is about twice as tall, but in the end section it says that it is 3 or more. Which one is true?

Also this articles pretty biased towards certain aspects. 122.57.220.205 09:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

flood juggernaut/spawning
How is it even spawned? I have never heard of this thing before

Speculation
It's a shame that the Juggernaut was deleted, despite all the work Bungie put into it. In terms of functionality, the Pure Forms probably replaced the Juggernaut.

However, I just remembered something. In "The Art of Halo", there are pictures of early designs for the level that became Quarantine Zone in Halo 2. It mentions some early concepts such as there being a Flood "crust" i.e. masses of Flood biomass in certain areas, and that Juggernauts would spawn from these by breaking out of them. The Juggernauts would have aided the Flood in defeating the Sentinels including the powerful Enforcers.

The mention of the crust and the Juggernauts coming from them made me think of what we know about the formation of Pure Forms. As we all know, Pure Forms are created from secured biomass and calcium stores, which is converted into a hardened, adaptable framework which is then filled out with the Flood Super Cell. However, we haven't seen the Flood manufacturing the Pure Forms, though we know that they aren't possessed and animated by infection forms.

Are Pure Forms created/grown from special areas of the Flood Hive like those growth pods that release infection forms, or are they formed from combat forms merging, transforming, and then changing into Pure Forms?

As for the Juggernaut, its structure has many things in common with a "Proto-Gravemind" or "Brain Form." It has a bulbous main structure, has thick tentacles and protrusions grown from a central mass, and possesses "ribs" which would imply the presence of coverted hosts constituting its form. They also are of similar size, with the Juggernaut being mobile instead of stationary. It is also categorized as an advanced Flood form, like the Proto-Gravemind.

So it would be reasonable to imagine that the Juggernaut is formed in a similar manner; the Flood activate some sort of signal or instinct to create this form, and 3 or more Combat Forms merge with each other. From this mass of mutated flesh and bone grows a bulbous upper structure, followed by many sensory stalks, a hardened carapace, and the growth of strong tentacles and legs.

Perhaps it serves as a surrogate form before Pure Forms can be created, or perhaps it is some sort of combat capable, mobile coordination and control mass, i.e. a mobile gravemind?

--Exalted Obliteration 04:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

An old species?
This could be a flood form that is ancient, it might be a form from the flood homeworld, perhaps a native psecies that htey assimilated on the way? And then if they were caught and contained by hte forerunners, only recently being sent back into the fighting.

They could also be a "Packed Gravemind", say, so that they come across, then when they are in, they turn into the GRavemind, they are perfectly suited, large, well defended, extremely powerful, have guards. &quot;Die? Didn&#39;t you know?...Spartans don&#39;t die.&quot; 15:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Content?
Since the Juggernaut is categorized as an Advanced Form, shouldn't it be removed from Deleted Content? --RadicalEdward2 20:01, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

No, since it did not actually appear in any game.--Do not insult me. 20:41, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

And before anyone says, 'the Engineer's are deleted too' the Huragok are supported by several Halo novels and ODST.--Kre &#39;Nunumee 22:05, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Several juggernauts
Just to clear that up, the appearance of several juggernauts in some videos isn't what you think it is. I'm pretty sure that if you can edit Halo 2 you can edit how many will spawn, and if it will respawn. Oh, and not that I have seen any that have more than one Juggernaut, but I haven't watched any juggernaut fights either. I just saw a bunch of people up there talking about the "other" one, or so I recall. PX1'7'3 16:08, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Kind of like a Carrier
The Juggernaut looks like a carrier form. Could their be some relation, like, it 's a carrier form with a little more defense? Liquid Ink 08:25, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

I bet it is. The similarity should be mentioned in the Trivia section. - Echoes are all you hear...  00:12, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Feast of Bones
Should we update this page on what feast of bones says? Liquid Ink 01:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Era/list of appearances
I'm not sure what to put under those two categories when there is deleted material. Help me please. . . pestilence   Phil,  pestilence!  11:01, 22 December 2010 (EST)

A video
I know there used to be a video of a juggernaut fight, but someone took it down. Could someone put it back? Jedizora 14:16, 23 February 2011 (EST)

Ambiguously canon?
It's recent appearance in the Mona Lisa motion comic may upgrade its canon status? It seems like it should to me, at least. pestilence  Phil,  pestilence!  12:07, 25 November 2011 (EST)


 * It may indeed be inspired by it. However, the Flood is so variable in many of the non game media that often many of the hosts shown aren't intended to have a form at all. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 12:55, 25 November 2011 (EST)


 * While your "generic blob"-type analysis seems convincing, I must point out to you that Halo Wars and The Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor both involve animal life being used as hosts for the Flood; they are established as such, rather than being generic monsters of undefined shape.--  Fore  run  ner '' 15:50, 25 November 2011 (EST)


 * That's true. In that case, if the Juggernaut is thus a canon Flood form, would this page get re-structured to discuss its canon appearances, or would this page still discuss it as a cut enemy, now with "bonus" cameos in the canon? Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 16:07, 25 November 2011 (EST)


 * I'll go with "cameo"; the motion comics are of artistic lisence and would lead to a lot of questions if taken as canon (eg. Threshold becoming blue).--  Fore  run  ner '' 16:12, 25 November 2011 (EST)

Template?
Should this flood form be in the template? Pokebub (talk) 14:10, 21 April 2013 (EDT)

Canonicity
Mention in "Feast of Bones"

So I have researched the matter as best as I could, and this is what I have found so far. There are two important sources that I should explain (both are already in the article's sources). The first one is an article entitled "Feast of Bones". Long story short, what we need to know is that the Juggernaut was supposed to be in Halo 2 as a super intelligent deadly mini-boss which ended as a big, stupid, cheap, frustrating tank. In the end, the "conflict" between the original purpose and the AI killed the character's chance of being included in the game. The Juggernaut was "supposed to be" (I'm using Urk's own words) a "progenitor of the pure form seen in Halo 3", i.e. it was supposed to be made of "raw materials", some kind of intermediate stage between the combat form and the Gravemind. Note that this section of the article mainly focuses on why the Juggernaut didn't make the cut (AI, etc), but it does mention "its demise and subsequent rebirth" (i.e. the Pure forms in Halo 3). This is retroactively speaking, in other words the Juggernaut shared a similar concept with the Pure forms, it was "pure" before the term was coined (in Halo 3).

Mention in "Flood level autopsy"

Now comes the second article, which is written by Vic DeLeon. It was a presentation of the Flood and how it was designed during the development of Halo 3. The presentation may not be available anymore, but I do have pictures of it. Basically, for those who don't know, Vic DeLeon was the guy who was mainly responsible for the Flood stuff in Halo 3. In his own words: "I researched, prototyped, and realized a new visual vocabulary and style for an old theme in the Halo universe." "A new visual language for the Flood needed to be created." Of course, as a senior artist, he was not "the" artist who did all the work, but he was responsible for everyhting from start to finish. Basically, he's as much the "Flood guy" for Halo 3 as Robt McLees was for Halo: CE. At one point, he talks a bit about the Flood forms (he doesn't elaborate a lot), and he talks roughly about three categories: the combat forms, the advanced forms, and then finally the new Halo 3 pure forms. What struck me is that, among the advanced forms, he casually includes: "Juggernaut, Proto-Gravemind, Gravemind" (He only shows pictures for the Juggernaut and the Gravemind), without even explaining that the Juggernaut was supposed to have been cut or anything. It's just as if it's an advanced form. Actually, for the combat forms, he only shows a Brute form, and for the pure forms, he only shows the Tank form. Yet, for the advanced forms, he does take the time and space to include the Juggernaut. (Please understand that there are over 50 images overall, so I'm not going to upload them all, but only these 3 images are dedicated to the "Flood lifeforms" so the rest is irrelevant to the current discussion). Note that the presentation as a whole is supposed to describe how development went for the Flood, so you may assume "nah he's just showing concepts", but this is in the beginning, when he simply introduces "Flood lifeforms", as if they were not cut content (Obviously only the Juggernaut seems out of place, there is nothing in the whole presentation about cut forms).

My understanding

So, in conclusion, this is my understanding: "Feast of Bones" mainly confirms that the Juggernaut was cut in Halo 2 for gameplay concerns (Note that the article was published in 2010, but as a whole it mainly deals with the development of the Flood in Halo: CE and Halo 2). But in "post-Halo 3" Bungie, Vic DeLeon (whose role in the most recent Flood stuff is quite significant) is also ready to accept the Juggernaut as a part of the "Flood canon". While "Feast of Bones" vaguely mentions the Juggernaut as a precursor to the later Pure forms, Vic mainly considers it to be way more powerful and "advanced" than the pure forms, though they share some similarities. This also reflects why it couldn't make it into the game twice, in other words the pure forms are more "docile" and the idea of a form made with raw materials could fit into Halo 3. However they still don't know how to include the Juggernaut with a good AI so it can live up to its reputation. Note also that in Halo 2, it was supposed to "control" other combat forms, and when the Juggernaut would be killed, the combat forms would automatically die. Something that implies the Juggernaut is not just a pure form, but something more advanced. It is made with raw materials, indeed, but it is even more advanced than the Halo 3 pure forms. (Note that in "Feast of Bones", Robt McLees usually talks about the Proto-Gravemind/Gravemind as being able to control other Flood forms simply through "broadcasting" its intelligence into them, which is strikingly similar to the Juggernaut. In many ways, we can consider the Juggernaut not simply as a pure form, but really as some kind of "Proto-Gravemind combatant"). Because of the way those two sources deal with the Juggernaut, I think there is a reasonable case to be made.

Modifications to the article

The Juggernaut is either canon or at least semi-canon, it would fall into the advanced category, and was deleted from Halo 2 but not from the Halo universe itself as Bungie still clung to it as late as the early 2010s. I doubt whether 343i can have an explicit stance on the matter, as they have barely used the Flood in the meantime and even if they brought them back the Juggernaut itself is unlikely to come back properly. That leaves us with Bungie's last stance, which is actually quite ambiguous overall, but from Vic's work I would say the creature does fit somewhere in the universe, but not in the games due to AI limitations. Like in Halo 3, where we were supposed to fight the Gravemind with a Scarab, but... well, you can imagine why it didn't happen. Anyway, Vic puts it too ostensibly on the same level as the Proto-Gravemind and the Gravemind, so I wouldn't dare to say it's got deleted from the universe. Deleted from Halo 2, yes (according to Feast of Bones). But from Bungie's internal canon, never (according to Vic's point of view). Imrane-117 (talk) 19:48, 8 February 2015 (EST)
 * Bump. (A topic on Waypoint about the Juggernaut made me remember about this) Imrane-117 (talk) 21:19, 11 March 2015 (EDT)

It would really help if you were to break up the wall of text into smaller sections, or at least summarize it. This speech goes on for more than a page and is very hard to follow. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 22:48, 11 March 2015 (EDT)


 * Yeah actually I should also summarize it. Basically, in ~2010 Bungie released two notable articles explaining things about the Flood. "Feast of Bones" explained why the Juggernaut was deleted in Halo 2 (due to AI issues), but "Flood level autopsy" gave a few examples of Flood lifeforms, one of which was the Juggernaut (it was clearly about regular Flood lifeforms and not about deleted forms). My point is that "Feast of Bones" explains the Juggernaut was deleted from Halo 2, but internally Bungie continued to consider it as a canonical "advanced form" (basically some kind of Proto-Gravemind combatant). Imrane-117 (talk) 00:01, 12 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Here I am thinking its appearance in The Mona Lisa motion comic is enough for it to be considered canon. Sith-venator Wavingstrider Fett helmet.jpg ( Commlink ) 00:09, 12 March 2015 (EDT)


 * In my opinion, the one from the Mona Lisa was likely a combat form with a design reminiscent of the Juggernaut (technically, the Juggernaut is not a "host form" anymore, so you shouldn't be able able to see the host's head). But you could argue that it's a combat form in the phase of becoming a Juggernaut. Imrane-117 (talk) 02:39, 12 March 2015 (EDT)

Make a seperate page for the "Abomination" from Halo War 2
That large creature in Halo Wars 2, which some are mistaken for the Juggernaut is actually called the "Abomination". I'll find the source tomorrow as it's late, but I believe it was actually mentioned on either waypoint and in the interview at E3. Primordial (talk) 19:41, 14 June 2017 (EDT)

Halo Wars 2 not a Juggernaut
In Halo Wars 2, the Juggernaut thing is called an Abomination. And not a Juggernaut. Is it to early to say one and two are the same thing when really its possible that Ske7ch only called it that in the stream cause it looked like it. I mean in a stream Grim called the Collosus the Mark II(D) yet later retracted that statement only to say they were related.-CIA391 (talk) 20:02, 14 June 2017 (EDT)

There must be a source somewhere that lists "abomination" as its actual name because Halo Wiki had a page for it under that name 2 days ago. I also don't think "juggernaught" has ever been a name used in-unverse, given its brief appearance in The Mona Lisa motion comic. I think we just need to change the name of the page.Japeth555 (talk) 20:08, 14 June 2017 (EDT)Japeth555


 * This youtube video showing it should be suffice right?
 * http://youtu.be/ZM3wTx5_YgU?t=4m31s
 * Cause it is an "Abomination".-CIA391 (talk) 20:13, 14 June 2017 (EDT)

So this is the abomination. I think this means the so-called "thrasher form" needs to b renamed as Juggernaut since it is actually called that in a board game.


 * As for the latter point, I don't think an obscure and probably quasi-canonical board game should take precedence over the name given in a major release. We could list "Juggernaut" as an alternative name for the thrasher form, though even that's suspect - do we know for a fact they're the same thing, aside from looks? A lot of things in Halo resemble one another without necessarily being the same. --Jugus (talk) 10:40, 16 June 2017 (EDT)

"The Mona Lisa"
I really don't think "The Mona Lisa" motion comic should be listed as an appearance. If this article were solely about the Juggernaut it would be a different story. However, this page focuses on the canonical Abomination which, in spite of being inspired by the Juggernaut, is pointedly not the same thing. The combat form in the motion comic is just that — a combat form inspired by an unused concept, neither an Abomination nor a true Juggernaut. -- Our answer is at hand.  ( Talk to me. ) 09:37, 15 June 2017 (EDT)