Talk:Project CHRYSANTHEMUM

did all S-III companies recieve augemenations? we know for a fact that Gamma Company did but did the other 2 did? for some people i know say they do.--UNSC AI 01:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All compaines recieved the first four augmentations, but the last three, only Gamma Company. -ED 01:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Which Is better?
Does the Spartan II augmentation have better results than the Spartan III because I thought that the loss of the mortality rates would mean it wouldent be as good.TheBlueBlur 19:22, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * The CHRYSANTHEMUM augmentations really weren't any less effective than those of the SPARTAN-IIs, as they were really just a refinement upon the originals. However, the decreased mortality rate was certainly a benefit. As for Kurt's secret administration of illegal drugs during Gamma Company's procedures - that's another story. --&quot;A government strong enough to give you everything you want...is strong enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson 19:41, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

In Comparison to Spartan-IIs
This whole section should be removed. It has no citations to official sources for all its claims, and Ghosts of Onyx clearly shows Spartan-IIIs operating well alongside a veteran S-II (Kurt-051), and working well with other Spartans, despite lacking Mjolnir armor.

I agree with the above, calling them inferior is stupid, i don't see the same mention of inferiority on the Spartan IV page. The III's were not in the same circumstances; had they been feilded in teams of 300 all equipped in Mjolnir armour and aged 20ish (so their augmentations would have settled and maybe increased somewhat)and had the same mortality rates in combat then yes, they would be inferior compared to handfuls of II's destroying cruisers and space stations....this however isn't the case. The III's are pretty much thrown out straight after augmentation and wear, in essence, glorified ODST armour. To my knowledge Tom and Lucy are the only III's to date of any appreciable age that can be compared; and they do just fine alongside the Spartans of Blue team without all the advantages of a super suit and as many miles on the clock. The enhancements (fair enough they don't all have 'perfect genes' - but do we truly know how much of an effect this has?) make them comparable, the level of training is comparable (arguably the III's is better than the II's as they had a II training them - who better to know how to train someone with their abilities?) - the only appreciable difference is Mjolnir.Qzmju123 (talk) 14:05, 3 May 2013 (EDT)

I agree with the above as well. If there is no citation for it by now then it definitely should be removed. That's a pretty strong accusation to say that the Spartan IIIs are that inferior without any source for it at all.

Well, with two other supporters (an no citation after so long), I have removed to section. If someone can find an actual citation, I encourage them to undo the edit and provide a citation. Toa Freak (talk) 18:26, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

Screening and compatibility
Regarding this edit, I think the implication is that there was more to the SPARTAN-IIs' genetic screening than mere compatibility with the augmentations (though that was the primary concern). The filtering also had to do with the specific psychological traits that would help one adapt to the indoctrination and training, intelligence, etc, while the IIIs didn't get screened for things like behavioral stability. Technological advances definitely helped with the S-IIIs, but statements in Ghosts of Onyx suggest that Halsey could've drawn her candidates from a slightly wider gene pool but chose not to. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 00:27, 16 February 2015 (EST)


 * I apologize that i didn't see this back when i made the edit. I kind of like the way it is now(says pretty much all it needs to say), but if you have quotes from Ghosts of Onyx, i wouldn't mind seeing them. The way i see it, like Toa Freak has also said on other forms of social media, the Spartan II candidates had to fall under that category of natural physical fitness and mental fortitude in order to survive their augmentations. She has a statement from the Fall of Reach that indirectly back that up as well. As for behavioral problems, i don't see why children who lost their families from glassing would be completely stable after that. I mean, the basis of the program was vengeful orphans who more than likely dealt trauma's no child can possibly endure unscathed on a mental level. That doesn't really seem like you can screen any candidates from that, that wouldn't be affected. While yes, her program had budget cuts and the candidate number was cut in half 2 separate times, the failure rate more than likely would have been worse had she had more funding for more candidates.Kal825B (talk) 15:17, 5 March 2015 (EST)

No need to apologize; you didn't see this because I posted it after you made the edit. I agree it's good the way it is (I decided it's best to be ambiguous since we aren't 100% sure), but let's a look at some quotes anyway. All are from Ghosts of Onyx, as I'm not even going to bring up Glasslands and its statements about the S-IIIs' genetic criteria since those have no credibility whatsoever.

Page 46: ''"Here I detail the flaws of Halsey's undeniably 'successful' program," Ackerson said. "High cost, an absurdly small gene-candidate pool, inefficient training methodologies, far too few final units produced—not to mention her dubious ethics of using flash cloning procedures."''

Ackerson is biased and he's obviously trying to paint Halsey in the worst possible light, but the way he phrases "an absurdly small gene-candidate pool" suggests it was a choice, not an absolute necessity. If it were 100% necessary to be that picky, that part of his argument would have no credibility, a dangerous thing when you're trying to win over the Section III leadership.

Page 62: ''"The effort to train additional SPARTAN-IIs was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said. "There were other candidates within the gene pool, but they were out of synch with her age restriction protocols. And with the continuing war, her program funds were... diverted."''

Again, it's Ackerson talking, but there's no reason to assume he's lying. He doesn't mention psychological issues here but he does make a point that Halsey was picky about the candidates' age.

Page 63: "Kurt scanned the reader again. The new genetic selection protocol expanded the pool of candidates, but there were disturbing references to behavior problems in these less-than-ideal potential Spartans."

This one is more vague. You could argue that the "new selection protocol" refers to technological advances, but I've always interpreted it as Ackerson broadening it for practical reasons. It's most likely a bit of both.

Page 67-68: "After poring over every detail of the new recruits' files, Kurt discovered they didn't match the perfect psychological and genetic markers set in Dr. Halsey's original selection protocols. Colonel Ackerson had warned him they had to draw from a "less statistically robust" group. These recruits wouldn't be anything like himself, John, Kelly, or any of the original SPARTAN-II candidates."

Note that he says "had to draw", not that they could draw. When technological advances are brought up in Ghosts of Onyx it's always in reference to the washout rates, not the selection criteria; you'd think it would've been mentioned if it was a major factor. All this suggests, to me, that Halsey was being more picky than was absolutely necessary, though she had a point with this (i.e. making sure the Spartans would endure the insane mental and physical stress they were subjected to). True to his character, Ackerson had no such worries. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 15:53, 5 March 2015 (EST)

Yeah, Glasslands definitely lacked in the canonical research department. The writing on its own was decent though. As for your Ghosts of Onyx quotes.

Yeah, page 46 and 62 almost confirm that age requirements weren't an absolute necessity and just her preference. So the age portion is kind of a given it seems.

Page 63 is vague, much like the rest of Nylund's writing in that novel. I'm assuming this is so fans won't backlash from direct confirmation of Spartan III prowess. Personally i see it as both, because he has the means to draw from a wider selection criteria than the previous program. I always saw that as Ackerson broadening it because of technological advances. Without it, i can't picture him broadening the program like he did.

That quote from page 67-68 always baffled me for multiple reasons. It almost seems like Nylund put it there to present Kurt's doubts on the Spartan III program. He was trying to express how Kurt doubted how successful the kids could be. And surprising Kurt when they were successful. This is also backed up by a quote on page 92 of Ghosts of Onyx.

""We don't know what they're capable of," Kurt finally told Deep Winter. "''Stick with the by the-book drills and we'll never find out, either. But put them in an impossible situation, and maybe they'll surprise us''."

"Short definition of a Spartan," Mendez remarked.

That's what people had said about the SPARTAN-IIs who were the genetic cream of the crop and wore MJOLNIR armor. They could do the impossible, and do it alone. The SPARTAN-IIIs, though, would have to work together to survive. Be more family than fire team. "

It was supposed emphasize how wrong Kurt was from the very beginning. Another thing i don't understand is why Ackerson said "had to draw" when canonically that isn't the case. They had candidates that met the requirements for the Spartan II program and Candidates that did not. Having the ability to pull from a wider pool of candidates doesn't mean they absolutely had to. A part of me wants to believe Ackerson told Kurt that so he wouldn't purposely change the selection criteria. I always thought that washout rates implied selection criteria, since Halsey has stated that her section criteria had to be completely specific to suit her original program on page 24 of the Fall of Reach Definitive Edition, all this even with her preference for age(i assume its so all of them can feel somewhat equal to each other on a mental level while training to increase kinship). Personally, in terms of age i can understand why she was strict, however that doesn't really negate her having strict genetic criteria for nothing other than survival. This can also be reinforced by all of the Spartan III candidates that survived harsher training than their predecessors with less strict genetic markers and varying ages. Though, i guess you really can't damage and already psychologically damaged individual.

Also, do you have an opinion on the section below?

Kal825B (talk) 17:03, 5 March 2015 (EST)

The Canonicity of "A Spartan Will Rise"?
What is the canonical status of this trailer? I noticed this site likes to use it as a source for canon for Noble Six, however, the trailer narration also mentions that Jun's skills as a sniper are "unmatched". While there is no specific source that directly backs it up, there are general sources that indirectly back that up. If it is considered canon, shouldn't the performance section say "on par or better"?