Talk:Operation: RED FLAG

Marines
Vegerot ( talk )  16:46, 6 March 2011 (EST): Don't you think it's odd that it was not mentioned until Halo: The Flood that the UNSC had a whole army of Orbital Drop Shock Troopers also on board, with even a Major on board?


 * Well, at that point the ODSTs barely existed in the canon. We had a few lines in The Fall of Reach that they were special forces, and John beating three to death, but very little description of what they actually did, and no reason to assume they would be involved with something like RED FLAG. The one thing we knew, that ODSTs didn't like Spartans at all, made this even less likely. The Flood was our real introduction to the cream of the Marine Corps crop. We really have Deitz to thank for fleshing out the ODSTs, from which they have become a staple of the franchise - has there been a Halo game since 1 that hasn't had Helljumpers in some shape or form? No. --  Specops306   Autocrat     Qur'a 'Morhek   23:11, 6 March 2011 (EST)


 * I'd also like to point out that there is nothing in Fall of Reach that outright says that ODSTs were to assist the SPARTANs, who traditionally considered Marines to be weak links in combat. Additionally, in First Strike, the UNSC Security Committee believed that RED FLAG was as good as failed when they learned that most of the SPARTAN-IIs were left behind on Reach when the Autumn jumped out. I'd also like to take the time to point out that John-117 was not yet Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy, and Sergeant Johnson wasn't a Sergeant Major, like the infobox says. -- SFH 23:24, 6 March 2011 (EST)


 * Vegerot ( talk )  16:09, 7 March 2011 (EST): I already think I know. The Marines were to help out with the SPARTANs operations. But for the most part stay the hell out of their way for most of the Operation. They would only play a big role at two parts.
 * 1. If all the SPARTAN-IIs were eliminated than the Orbital Drop Shock Troopers would take over.
 * 2. Once the Covenant home-world was located, they would assist in the raid and kidnapping of the Covenant leaders.

There was no indication of it in the canon that they were involved that I can find. I kept editing the page to reflect this but Vegerot kept editing it back. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 19:43, 7 March 2011 (EST)

Vegerot ( talk )  19:56, 7 March 2011 (EST): The evidence is clear, the fact that they are on the ship. What I said above with the 2 facts, THAT is speculation, but it is not speculation that ONI does everything for a purpose, so they did not put a whole army of Marines on board because they could. Especially because they needed every trooper fighting for humanity's survival!


 * No, I mean there is no evidence or menton they were there AT ALL for RED FLAG. The only time they are seen is in The Flood at that is because they were aboard evacuating from Reach, but they weren't on beforehand in the briefing for the op. Just because it seems like they would have a purpose doesn't mean they were there, otherwise ONI would have mentioned them. They are not mentioned, therefore it's just speculation. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 17:05, 8 March 2011 (EST)

Vegerot ( talk )  17:14, 8 March 2011 (EST): They weren't at the meeting because they were already briefed. and Besides, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


 * Firstly, please put your signature at the end of the comment, not at the start. Secondly, speculation cannot become fact without concrete evidence.— subtank  17:16, 8 March 2011 (EST)

Thank you Subtank! So until we see concrete evidence we must assume that they are on there for a purpose, instead of speculating crazy reason why they might be aboard! Vegerot ( talk )  17:25, 8 March 2011 (EST)!


 * However, my comment also counter what you're proposing; they might be there for a purpose but not for the purposes of RED FLAG. Therefore, it is more of supporting what Tuckerscreator had said before.— subtank  17:30, 8 March 2011 (EST)

Exactly. Vegerot, it's not absence of evidence, what you're using is "Appeal to ignorance", i.e. "if there is no proof they weren't there, then they were there." That's a fallacy, and goes against the policy for information on this wiki. What there isn't is proof that there were involved at all. You might as well say that Elites were involved too. The burden of proof is on you, the one making the extraordinary claim. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 17:36, 8 March 2011 (EST)


 * But how could they transfer a whole army on there?! We know that there were pilots on there though. Vegerot  ( talk )  17:45, 8 March 2011 (EST)!!

They got on afterward. There was an evacuation, you know. Some Marines might have been present for crew purposes but otherwise RED FLAG was intended to be an all-Spartan mission. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 17:51, 8 March 2011 (EST)

As I understand it, battalions are led by Colonels, not Majors, and companies by Captains not Lieutenants. So obviously part of the original chain of command was missing, possibly through fighting on Reach. --  Specops306   Autocrat     Qur'a 'Morhek   18:44, 8 March 2011 (EST)

O.K. But just out of curiosity, does Major Silva outrank Master Chief SPARTAN-117? Vegerot ( talk )  19:16, 8 March 2011 (EST)!
 * Yes. Master Chief Petty Officer is a non-commissioned officer, while a Major is a commissioned officer. -- SFH 19:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)


 * There's two trains of thought when considering Special Operations formations such as Battalions, Regiments/Groups, etc. One, it's just a normally organized unit along the same lines as the Infantry branch; or two, it's a smaller, more centralized, overarching organization consisting of a dozen or so elite teams. The ODST's throughout it's history in the Halo universe have fallen into both. Throughout history, battalions and larger formations have been lead by soldiers and Marines with lower ranks than normally required. A CO may be killed, put out of action, reassigned, etc. and the XO or a transfer (normally lower ranking) takes his or her place. This may be the case when one ascends, but isn't promoted to the proper rank for that unit size. However, as the Helljumpers of the 105th ShockDiv sometimes drop their "shock infantry" role and become direct action/reconnaissance/intelligence personnel, their battalions may be more akin to modern-day MARSOC organization where a battalion of Recon Marines numbers at approximately 250. A Major would certainly be a more useful asset than a Lieutenant Colonel in this situation. Then again, the Marine Corps prides itself on a de-centralized command mentality where everyone down to the Corporal level can successfully lead Marines.
 * And just to add the last bit of fuel to the fire before I end this debate:

"Why was it on there in the first place? RED FLAG operational requirements only stated that the Pillar of Autumn's Spartan detachment were to be involved in combat deployments. Sure, the cruiser's shipboard Marine contingent would have provided support, but there's nothing in canon to suggest otherwise. So, remind me again why ya'll had a pointless three-day debate when you could simply refer to canon."

- My boast on Tuckerscreator's userboard


 * I think we're done here. :)

Halo 5 Limited Edition
The limited edition for Halo 5 (as does Fred's and Kelly's Waypoint articles) refers to the operation as a mission to defend Reach's ODP generators. While we know the operation's original goals, is it possible that with the Fall of Reach that RED FLAG became an operation to defend the ODP generators instead? -- NightHammer (talk)(contribs) 19:47, 7 March 2016 (EST)


 * I'd say it became the Spartans' de facto objective (in addition to the main, official objective). If I remember correctly, John made a deal with Keyes aboard the Autumn, saying that they would still try to board a Covenant ship if possible. More generally, I'd say RED FLAG was supposed to be an operation part of the Fall of Reach. According to the data drops, Reach had to be sacrificed, and the Spartans were supposed to steal one of the Covenant fleet's capital ship. So RED FLAG-related events, both official and non-official, should be more integrated within the "Fall of Reach" article as a whole. Imrane-117 (talk) 07:52, 8 March 2016 (EST)


 * The Autumn just about to jump out of the Epsilon Eridani system, though, before the final invasion started. I took it that Parangosky and Stanforth scuttled the original plan for RED FLAG (ie. board a ship at Reach) after the LNoS was taken out, and intended for Keyes not to stick around in Epsilon Eridani any longer. I suppose the defense of the generators can be understood as a new objective that was introduced mid-mission if the limited edition cards say so. RED FLAG was probably considered to have begun when the Autumn departed and anything from then on was part of the operation. It's a bit hard to draw the line as to where the operation ended or if the actions on Halo were also part of it (since the Autumn was involved), but I guess we'll just stick with what we're given— i.e. the Reach ground op being considered part of RED FLAG. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 12:20, 8 March 2016 (EST)