Forum:Sangheili - Heroes or Hypocrites?

Why do so many Halo fans like the Sangheili so much? They're no better than humans or anyone else, really. In fact Sangheili seem to have a very backward society despite being quite advanced technologically. Many Sangheili only show respect to those they themselves deem worthy. Their very concept of honour often shows how intolerant they can be. Make a single mistake and you will virtually be nothing but scum.

For example:

In The Cole Protocol, a Sangheili panics while the ship he's on is under attack. In this kind of situation, humans would simply tell him to calm down or try to console him further if needed. However, he is met with no sympathy whatsoever by his fellow Sangheili. His superior (none other than Thel 'Vadamee) admonishes him extremely harshly by taking his daily rations away. ...Okay, now starving him is only going to make him more unfit for battle, don't you think? Another problem is their reservations about spilling blood. Bleeding is natural for God's sake. When fighting in a war, people are inevitably going to bleed at some time or another. Doctors are also there to help, not to cause one to lose so-called honour! A lot Sangheili wrongly think accepting help is dishonourable and shows major weakness. Compassion is obviously a rare occurrence in Sangheili society, it seems.

I've as well found while playing Halo 2 that constantly when going into cover, Sangheili will call the Master Chief a coward, yet will do the exact same thing, even actually hiding for much longer periods of time than I ever could.

To me, we should all really be thanking God that the Sangheili don't exist in real life. But then again, they did save humanity's collective butt in the end. X-D

Anyway, that's the end of my rant. :-) So, what do you guys think?

Sor 02:45, 21 August 2011 (EDT)


 * Humans often contradict themselves and have double standards on almost everything. ;) — subtank  04:00, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

The concept of a "warrior species/race" applying double standards is fairly common in sci-fi, though I guess what makes the sangheili work (and what makes fans...fangasm over them) is that we get to contrast them with the jiralhanae. For the apes, we get "warrior species meme 1" with cruelty that isn't hid, the type of race that we can dislike without guilt. With "warrior species meme 2" with the sangheili, we get to gravitate towards them by means of contrast, of singling out the good bits whilst ignoring the bad thanks to the shadow of the jiralhanae.

Or at least that's my theory. Personally I'd say sangheili are two sides of the same coin and are just as tarnished, and if I had to identify with a Covenant species, it would be unggoy and huragok. Naturally root for the underdogs I suppose.--Hawki 04:14, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

On the subject of [i]The Cole Protocol[/i], I personally can't take the author very seriously due to his usage of slang in the Sangheili sections of the novel (especially the use of "stickies" instead of "plasma grenades", along with other prevalent amateur sci-fi writing mistakes). I like how he wrote the UNSC side of the story, but in my opinion he butchered the Covenant parts.

Regardless of my lack of respect for the author and his writing (and 343i for permitting such poor work to be published), I can see where the OP is coming from; essentially the only way one could gain honor in that kind of culture is to be invincible and invulnerable, which in that technologically advanced era was darn near impossible. If one lost honor for every wound, they couldn't possibly have any honorable warriors, since any actual war veterans would have scars and suchlike as human soldiers would, and the only unmarked warriors would have to be cowards who rely on superior numbers and force, lead from the rear, flee the moment things look bad, and other dishonorable courses of action.

[i]Cole Protocol[/i] being our first real look instead Sangheili culture, I think the author took the Japanese bushido inspiration too far. But he wrote it, 343i published it, it is canon. But that is never how I am going to see the species myself. I think [i]Glasslands[/i] will prove far superior; Karen Traviss has a much more experienced history with writing about sci-fi warrior cultures in her work with the Star Wars: Republic Commando series, expanding upon the famed Mandolorian culture as she has.

We shall see. Just my two cents. SquirrellyOtter Leave A Message 07:29, 21 August 2011 (EDT)
 * Sangheili society's been described as a "feudal meritocracy", but it strikes me that there should be more emphasis on the "feudal" part. They seem to be an incredibly class-bound culture: In The Cole Protocol, Thel 'Vadamee gives those who wish to escape his doomed ship the chance to do so (knowing that the escape craft will be blown apart by turncoat Kig-yar vessels nearly instantly), and he instantly assumes that those fleeing are "serfs who had risen far enough to work simple duties aboard the ship, or Sangheili who'd managed to hide their lack of real blood." So, while it's presumably possible for a Sangheili to move up in society through military service or hard work, you'll still be looked upon by the class above you as scum. As for their reservations about spilling blood, based on a passage in The Cole Protocol, it seems that a Sangheili can reclaim his or her honour after bleeding by performing a virtuous task: After Jora 'Konaree is wounded at the Battle of Charybdis IX, Thel remarks that their new mission from the Prophets will bring them honour while looking at his injury. The reservation against bleeding might only apply to warriors: If a Sangheili gains honour in combat but loses it by being wounded, then to them it's a sign of carelessness. Thel says as much when remarking on Jora's wound. In our culture, a good soldier is not necessarily one who is wounded, but one who can work well with other soldiers to devise new plans to overpower the enemy time and again. We can reasonably assume the same is true for the Sangheili.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 11:01, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

I have to say about your Halo 2 part is their attempt at stabbing Master Chief's honor, to infuriate him out into the killzone. It would be a tactic that would meet with some success when fighting other Sangheili. However, Master Chief is far more tactical minded for this trick to work.

Something similar goes for the story of Headhunters. We know that the whole base was actually a set-up. The Elite going on about how the use of cloaking was dishonorable most likely didn't actually mean it. He was trying to buy time for the specialized Spec Ops Elite team to arrive. Think about it, the Spartan III's would have activated their camo and moved on if it wasn't for that Elite.

The issue about Thel taking away that Elite's rations for the day is not truly an issue. You not eating for a day does not truly hinder your performance. Your body has built in energy stores to use whenever you don't have food in your belly. A day is nothing.

I believe that the whole "Blood-loss-loses-honor" thing only applies for the more conservative members of the race. They hold onto tradition far more than necessary.Missing Mandible 11:01, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

My belief was that to Sangheili, losing blood in battle was different from losing blood outside of battle. Losing blood in battle shows self-sacrifice and strength, but losing blood outside of battle shows wastefulness, clumsiness, inattentiveness, or even stupidity and incompetence. That makes sense to me. Losing blood when not in combat is wasteful and shows incompetence, and is hence dishonorable, but losing blood in battle is honorable.A.O.A., Administrator of Ace Combat Fanon 13:58, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

Apparently, if they are neither promoted nor killed in their first engagement, Elite Minors will commit suicide to preserve their honour...*HEADDESK* Sor 07:03, 7 September 2011 (EDT)
 * That is incorrect. They commit suicide if they fail to rank up or die during a military Campaign. Missing Mandible 16:01, 8 September 2011 (EDT)

That's what I meant. Apparently, if they are neither promoted nor killed in their first military campaign, Elite Minors will commit suicide to preserve their honour...*HEADDESK*. I mistakenly used the wrong words, sorry. :-) Sor 05:57, 10 September 2011 (EDT)

Is Sangheili Major the rank immediately following Sangheili Minor? Because if so, that means that all Blue Elites that you see is ALWAYS their first time in a campaign, and the idea of the Majors being the hardcore veterans may be very off. Vegerot goes RAWR! Vegerot ( talk )  14:39, 11 September 2011 (EDT)!

I've personally felt that the Humans and Elites got along far too well in Halo 3. And either way, I wish they never defected. They are much better enemies than foes, despite the fact that seeing them fight alongside the humans in Halo 3 was a rather novel experience. I also hate they fact that saving humanity somehow made up for the atrocities they committed. "Oh, they slaughtered billions of innocent men, women, and children over the course of about 27 years, but it's fine, because they saved us even though they didn't want to. We'll get along great after the war!" I hope Glasslands shows how laughable that is. I doubt many of the remaining humans, who likely have had loved ones slain by the Elites in cold blood, would forgive them so quickly. The alliance will likely be similar to current US-Russia relations. A.O.A., Administrator of Ace Combat Fanon 19:34, 12 September 2011 (EDT)


 * i'm sure glasslands will expand upon it. i mean the cover makes it look like there's a bit of tension between the odst and elite. hood showed distrust of the elites and said that he can't forgive them but i don't think the elites showed up enough in halo 3 for full coverage of the alliance. LeeUnit92

The relationship between Humans and Elites in Halo 3 was definitely strained. Lord Hood accused the Elites of glassing half of Africa, and Rtas 'Vadum going further by having no qualms about glassing Earth's whole surface. Even after the Battle of the Ark, Hood, while welcoming to the Arbiter, still admitted he couldn't forgive the Elites yet. Not to mention Master Chief trying to kill the Arbiter upon seeing him in Voi, or Miranda Keyes who, while never outright unkind to him, never speaks him once during their meeting at Crow's Nest. And these were just the leaders of the UNSC, I'm sure that civilians would have been even less forgiving, especially refugees of the war. The time when Humans and Sangheili most respect each other, however, is when they prove themselves in battle. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 23:41, 12 September 2011 (EDT)


 * Well, whatever ends up happening between Humans and Sangheili as races, I really hope nothing bad comes in between John and Thel (and Rtas too), if they ever meet again, which I hope they do. :/ I could see some random Humans and Elites hating each other, maybe fighting again, but I wouldn't find it very believable for them to become enemies again, not after what they've gone though together. Alex T Snow 06:34, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

I don't see Thel and John as being able to get along that well... A.O.A., Administrator of Ace Combat Fanon 23:36, 13 September 2011 (EDT)


 * Then I think you missed all the subtle little things between them in 3. Alex T Snow 23:48, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Such as this. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 01:12, 14 September 2011 (EDT)

Yeah, perfect :) And before that when he kills Truth, and later, when they're in the Dawn's hanger and John makes sure Thel is okay before they give each other a nod and go do what they need to do. And Thel's line near the end: "Were it so easy", showing he doesn't believe John's dead. I'm sure I missed some, but that's enough. Now, for other Sangheili, ones back on Sangelilios for example (or other humans), or simply not having much or any time with the other as allies, and not fighting at the Ark to save the galaxy, I could definitly see some or a lot or hate for each other there. Alex T Snow 12:52, 14 September 2011 (EDT)

I think they just respect each other as warriors. They each see their abilities and respect that. And Tucker, they just did that to watch each-other's backs. To make sure nothing snuck up and killed them. Doesn't the saying go like "Mutual Enemies make enemies become friends?" As in the mutual enemy being the parasite, and the enemies are the UNSC and the Covenant, which band together just because they don't like the Flood.

What I'm saying is that I don't think that John could just call Thel up and go out for beers. Vegerot goes RAWR! Vegerot ( talk )  17:25, 15 September 2011 (EDT)!!

No, they're not best buds or anything, but I also don't think they could be enemies again, that's what I was trying to get at. If Thel does reappear in the new series, I would be very unimpressed with the writers if he turns against Chief. Alex T Snow 18:58, 15 September 2011 (EDT)

Well, it never actually mentioned how long that Elite was going to have his rations revoked, Missing Mandible. Sor 08:05, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

The topic raised by this forum is one of a rare number of themes regarding responsibility, culpability, and morality in times of war that Halo has done correctly. As for the Sangheili, I cannot help but doubt their so-called "guilt" and actions that they have to "answer for." Given that each faction in the setting of the game series is almost entirely loyal to themselves and nothing else, it seems obvious to me, at least, that the Sangheili's "guilt" is entirely a farce and nothing more.

As culture and as a biological creature, the Sangheili are fundamentally a highly aggressive, blood-thirsty creature, just like the Humans, so their guilt and hope for "redemption" is only relative to their culture as a military-centered society and the justifications of their "honor." Their guilt is almost certainly about the fact that they themselves had no societal and religious approval for their war against Humanity independent of the Covenant, and therefore no justification for their extermination of another sentient species. The fact that the Covenant religion was false merely means for that for the Sangheili, there was no "legitimate" approval for their innate need to kill other living things.

In the context of their honor, that is merely an institutional permission slip for them to engage in rampant blood-letting, which their entire society and basis for existence is based upon. Every Sangheili is bred, trained, and hopes to find another living thing to kill, so any guilt or hope for redemption that they possess is merely the difficulty in finding a new purpose to justify their instinctive, fundamental need to kill other life forms.

Because of this, it is absurdity itself to consider that they have any true compassion, remorse, and regret for bringing Humanity to the brink of extinction; they only care about their self-serving notions of honor, glory, etc. and are only "guilty" about the fact that their justifications for their xenocidal campaign were falsehoods imposed by another non-Sangheili race, and not one given by the Sangheili themselves. The fact that the Humans are the "Reclaimers" of the Forerunner legacy means little for the Sangheili, other than that the are either tools to be used, or a dangerous obstacle to the fulfillment of their own religion and core nature.

Even without the Covenant, the Sangheili would still want to exterminate Humanity, for the Sangheili worship Forerunner artifacts, and wish that no being or race ever touches or reverse-engineers them, or that they deny the Sangheili's wish to be the only inheritors of the Forerunner legacy. In that imaginary scenario, the fact that Humanity would be reclaiming their assigned inheritance would make them mortal enemies of the Sangheili, who, despite the inevitable facts, would simply interpret things in way that exonerates them and fully villifies the "Reclaimer" race.

Point is, Covenant or no Covenant, the Sangheili and Humanity are mortal, eternal enemies, and the only way for either side to truly grow, evolve, and prosper is if the other completely purged from existence. --Exalted Obliteration 19:29, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

That's a good theory, but I don't think EVERY Sangheili or Human hates the other; probably most of them do, but I doubt it would end up being a war in the same sense that the 30-year one was. Alex T Snow 19:44, 21 September 2011 (EDT)


 * That above problem depends on the context of their "honor". Some more blood-thirsty ones seem to consider honor as solely prowess in battle, and thus would fit the above description. But others regard honor as more acting for the cause of right, kills having to be the means to gain that, and we saw that some were doubting the need to exterminate humanity, even considering letting them join the Covenant. The Sangheili can learn, like all sentient beings, but dealing with such species on an equal level is certainly a new mindset for them. There's no doubt that things are going to be harsh versus Humans and Elites, but they can scrape along once they learn to see each other's view. Learning to see it, though, like with every faction in all of history, is the hard part. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 19:47, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

Maybe, maybe not, but even the rare Sangheileian thinking about letting the Humans/Reclaimers join the Covenant, despite the commendations those Sangheili gave the Humans, when stripped of the fancy language, boils down to this; "here is a race that will be the best slaves that we have every had." They would never and could never accept Humans as their equals, for their entire history is not only based upon the killing of others, but also on the slavery of those they find as being useful peons, fodder to which they can subjugate and feel superior to.

For the Humans to be truly acceptable in any way, shape, or form for the Sangheili, is for the Humans to be degenerated to the point that they are little more than drones who do everything that they are told and have no capacity for true defiance, let alone emotionality that would be beyond their designated functions. The Sangheili want, as they have always wanted, are eager, mindless, and utterly subservient drones who cannot function beyond the strict confines of the Sangheileian military honor code denoting the duties and behaviors of designated inferiors.

Humans, on the other hand, would probably want something different, especially in light of their treatment at the hands of the Covenant. For them, the ideal situation would be the extinction of every other sentient life form in galaxy, especially those with their own culture and technology. Surely there is a strong, fervent, outright rabid hatred of any non-human sentient amongst the surviving civilian population, and they would surely be pleased if the rest of the sentient galaxy simply dropped dead or vanished from existence.

However, from this point of view's satisfaction, that doesn't really seem to be the case, as what can be seen from Glassland, at least to the logical degree. While ONI is operating in their inevitable, predictable fashion, it is clear that a number of the characters, such as the civilians and a few of the ODSTs, do not necessarily see that as being such a good idea. As seen from the plot summary, the aforementioned Humans feel pity and even compassion for the Huragok, former members of the Covenant and servant-tools of the Forerunner Builder caste.

The fact that they are tools left behind by the Forerunners, and therefore immediately useful Forerunner technology, is all the more reason to show zero compassion for them, and treat them as the servant-tools that they are. Does one show regret and compassion when a hammer breaks, or a screw-driver falls apart? No, one doesn't.

It is simply something to replace, and nothing more.

For something as important as Humanity's survival and ultimate acquisition of their Reclaimer title, there hardly seems to be room for that designated race to have others be equal to them, let alone serve in an advisory role. The Forerunners and certainly the Precursors did not, so why should Humanity be any different?

In a turbulent, unpredictable, and violent reality, there is only room for one supreme, prosperous authority to rule; there can be no others. Its winner takes all. --Exalted Obliteration 22:40, 21 September 2011 (EDT)


 * I do not think that the idea of the Sangheili concept of honor being different to the Human concept of honor has been realized by some fans. In reading about the Sangheili as, apparently, being honorable they draw in the positive connotations of the word. That is however the Human definition based on Human moral values. The Sangheili will have different moral values and therefore what is honorable to them will be different to what is honorable to us, therefore to draw on any of the positive connotations that we attach to the word - Such as rectitude, fortitude, nobility, sincerity, etc - is wrong. We do not fully know what sort of behavior qualifies as an honorable attribute in Sangheili society. This all means that some people are falsely idolizing the Sangheili as something that they are not. The writers do not make this clear with their rather liberal use of the word "honor", but for an alien race to have similar moral values to Humans is extremely unlikely.


 * When you discard Human values and come to see the Sangheili through their own actions then you might come to realize that they are really an unpleasant bunch. Certain actions, such as the atrocities of Kholo where Humans were slaughtered in their own homes, or Draco III were Humans were fed alive to rabid Grunts and Jackals, are no longer justified as being exceptions to the rule of their honor due to us trying to fit them to the connotations of our definition of the word, but rather form the rule of Sangheili honor. These actions when summed up will give you a glimpse of their own actual system of honor, and it looks nothing like ours.


 * There is also the more obvious, I think, reason as to why people like the Sangheili despite their actions in the series being morally corrupt. I think that it is their aesthetics, primarily. Most people will play as an Elite over a Spartan initially due to visual preferences. Over time they may change their reasons to some insincere reason such as "They are honorable", or through trying to relate in some other fashion, but it all boils down fundamentally to the fact that you like the way they look and that is that. Everything else is superfluous. I mean, I do not really imagine that vehement Sangheili fans value might over science, view other races as inferior to the extent of slavery and genocide, support infanticidal eugenics or a "might equals right" moral philosophy. Unless the person in question shares a similar viewpoint to Nazism then everything but aesthetics boils away in my opinion.


 * So basically, in my opinion, they pretend to like the Sangheili in some deeper sense, themselves knowing full well that it is superficial. If not then they are either falsely idolizing them based on the fact that they have not considered that Human honor =/= Sangheili honor, or that they do not really know the Sangheili's culture all too well, or that they themselves are quite unpleasant people maybe. -Anton1792 22:42, 24 September 2011 (EDT)

This may sound over-idealized from me, but I personally don't think either side is being given enough credit here. There's always going to be people on either side of the spectrum, for example, Elites like Ripa 'Moramee who are the bloodthirstiest things alive and live entirely for the glory of slaughter. Then there are men like Thel 'Vadam, who personally vouched for Earth to not be glassed from orbit, mourned the death of Sergeant Johnson and John-117, and sought that through victory he might bring about things like the safety of home. Humanity was hardly any better at the start of the war, the UNSC a borderline fascist organization that was willing to kidnap and brainwash children to combat terrorists who bomb hundreds to free their own skins. It's true that the Covenant has a lot of blood on its hands from the results of the war, watching cutscenes like these made me wonder how we could ally with such horrific beasts at all. But many of them have decided to atone for it. There's always going to be humans and Elites on either side of the spectrum; the key thing is which ones will be in charge.


 * Very well said, that's a point that's been mostly missed here. I'd also like to say, the reason I'm quite fond of them is most of the time I encounter them is when I play Halo 3, as it's always been my favourite. The Sangheili in 3 are friendly, likeable, badass, and had a lot of funny lines, and the important characters are Thel and Rtas, who are also very likeable. Sangheili appearances in the rest of the canon is a little more... unfriendly? Lol, that's a good word. Alex T Snow 00:28, 25 September 2011 (EDT)