Talk:SPARTAN-II augmentation procedures

Actual number?
ONI is notorious for "killing off" their SPARTANs. They constantly pull them away for special teams. Examples of this are Team Black, Kurt-051, Headhunters, and Noble Team. With that considered, I think it is possible, if not likely, that the number of casualties from the augmentations was exaggerated. We only know for sure (correct me if I'm wrong) of four wash outs. Ever. So what is the real number and should this be mentioned in the article? pestilence  Phil,  pestilence!  02:15, 31 July 2011 (EDT)
 * A few of the individuals and groups "dissappearences" you are mentioning have nothing to do with the SPARTAN-II augmentation procedures. In the novel Fall of Reach John-117 says thirty-two Spartan-II's survived, thirty washed out; either dead or crippled (page 82, newest printing). If we assume that Black squad was a total black-out job, and was smuggled out under the pretext that they had died in augmentation, we could say that thirty-six survived intact and twenty-six washed out.  Noble team was composed of Spartan-III's with the exception of Jorge-58.  The other Spartans were aware of Jorge if Halsey's journal is to be trusted.  Similar to Jorge-58, Kurt-51 was a known member of Blue Team alongsde John-117 and his later "death" was staged so that he could train the S-III's.  The Headhunters were likewise composed of S-III's, and the two programs had different success rates.  The Spartan-II augmentation procedure had either a fifty-two or a fifty-eight percent success rate depending on your view of Black Team's creation; the S-III procedures had a one-hundred percent success rate.  I hope this addresses your concerns.  For your consideration---Bruce2401 04:51, 31 July 2011 (EDT)


 * I think you misunderstood me, those examples were meant to show that ONI pulls aside SPARTANs all the time. And they do. Black team was pulled aside after the augmentations. While it isn't necesarily certain ONI lied about them, I believe the media on them said something like "so secret they were kept from their peers" (paraphrasing). So I am just curious how many could possibly be left, because we only know of four total wash-outs (we can't trust ONI so we basically have to see the body to confirm it). That leaves the fate of up to 22 SPARTANs uncertain. pestilence   Phil,  pestilence!  09:37, 31 July 2011 (EDT)


 * 1) Actually, he says that thirty-two other Spartans had survived. Including John, that's thirty-three. 2) Black Team was probably spirited away under the guise that they had died. However, in her journal, Halsey says that the washouts' funeral was to be closed-casket, that no autopsies were to be performed, and that their bodies would be placed in cryo. She expresses her hope that some of the washouts can be brought back from clinical death: she then expresses her fear for what ONI would do with their own secret team Spartans. The fact that she is concerned about this seems like a big indication of Black Team's origins. 3) To clarify this entire issue, I've made a comprehensive overview of the program's survivors, cripples, and washouts; aside from the newly revealed Sarah Osbun, it is entirely up-to-date. --Courage never dies. 09:54, 31 July 2011 (EDT)


 * Thank you very much. This puts some legitimacy to what I'm saying so I don't sound crazy. pestilence   Phil,  pestilence!  10:48, 31 July 2011 (EDT)

Pics or it didn't happen.
In the Procedure section, there is a great deal of information regarding the augmentations that is purely theory and conjecture. Despite my attempts to edit out this theoretical data or place Conjecture warnings, users continue to revert back to it as if it is canon fact. I for one do not support this because it is not information clearly stated in any source, and until it can be cited with ties to an actual piece of Halo literature, I regard it as faulty info. "Pariah" is cited as a source, but I can find no direct evidence on page 32 to support what has been posted, or on page 39. Now, I can see that the occipital capillary reversal came before the thyroid implant, which came before the muscular enhancement injections, etc. However there is no mention whatsoever of the neurosurgical methods, or the manner of the thyroid pellet's insertion. I understand that this may seem exceedingly trivial a thing to fuss over, but please, keep this article clean and free of non-canon conjecture. --Protocol dictates action
 * You have the truth of it. While it's a very cool description of the procedures, if there's no source, I'm inclined to view it as fanon. Well written fanon, which is probably why it's been there for so long, but fanon nonetheless. I do hope there is a source.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 19:38, 28 January 2012 (EST)
 * Look at the section in question. There ''are citations.--
 * Look at my post above. Said citations are irrelevant. The pages referenced by the citations have absolutely nothing on them to support some of the information present in the article. Protocol dictates action
 * "Pariah gives us an insight into what is done and in what possible order. In addition to that by doing some basic research you can get a general idea of how it's done."

- Durandal-217


 * I agree that the citations are irrelevant, but if you do some research, you can figure out which order they are done in. It's not that hard.--


 * I took great care to ensure it isn't just some bullshit written in three seconds with no basis. Everything written is from FoR and Pariah and the intent has been to give people a little bit more of an insight to something they've look at and said "OK sure whatever". Halo fiction, with respect towards the human side of the spectrum, has never been known for inserting words without meaning. Every augmentation description, as basic as it is, gives a general idea of what they did. I do agree it isn't much, but as I said before by doing basic research from the titles alone, you can put two and two together and get a rough picture. Which is why I tried to keep it as simple and as tight as I could without straying into bullshit territory. You can't do brain surgery without somehow cutting into the skull, just the same as you can't swallow a pill that magically ends up in your thyroid gland. Durandal-217 12:47, 29 January 2012 (EST)


 * As for "pics" if the first image on the article is valid and accurate to the canon, that is a great piece of evidence to look at which supports what I wrote given the location of of both stitches and bandages. Whether you wish to discuss the validity of the comic itself, is at your discretion. Durandal-217 12:53, 29 January 2012 (EST)


 * If you really want to get into the brain surgery metaphor, there is a clear difference. Brain surgery implies that the doctor is certain what he/she must do and causes a bit of deliberate injury before repairing it. But to compare it with the conjecture written in the article would be akin to cutting open someone's head for surgery without really knowing if you can put it back together.


 * If the images are from a Halo book, then it's valid. Speculation, however, should be removed since the Halo universe is still to this day vague about how technology works in the 26th century as well as how it differs to our lesser extent of knowledge today. But on a Halo canon site, conjecture shouldn't be put in the article, no matter how well-researched it may be, and is better off left out altogether. If people who have read the book know what was written, good for them. If they don't, it's not a good idea to leave potentially misleading "facts" in an article they rely on to be solid, dependable evidence from the Halo universe. I a m i n t h i s w o r l d <font color=#2C89CB>,  <abbr id="anId" class="jargon" style="color:offwhite;" title="My contributions"><font color=#3290D3>b <font color=#3694D7>u <font color=#3997DB>t <font color=#3D9BDF>n <font color=#409FE3>o <font color=#43A2E6>t  <abbr id="anId" class="jargon" style="color:offwhite;" title="Email me"><font color=#47A6EA>o <font color=#4AA9EE>f <font color=#4DADF2>i <font color=#54B4FA>t <font color=#57B7FD>. 

22:38, 7 February 2012 (EST)

Introduction complaint
I don't really like the introduction section of the article. Too...realistic.  (or so it says in the sacred caves) Vegerot!'' 20:10, 15 May 2012 (EDT)!
 * I don't think "realism" is the issue, rather, the current introduction seems more like it belongs in the "History" section. The actual introductory paragraph should instead be a compact summary of the article subject, as it is in John-117, Thel 'Vadam, Reach, and so on. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 01:54, 16 May 2012 (EDT)