Talk:SPARTAN-B312

S-312's superior
I was just wondering if someone could clarify something for me. It says that most likely S-B312's superior was Ackerson because Ackerson had requested Tom-B292 to head his special warfare team but that request was denied and Tom went with Lucy to train Gamma. So according to speculation Ackerson may have received S-312 instead. However, isn't this highly unlikely due to the fact that Ackerson thought the only Beta company survivors were Lucy and Tom because he had been kept in the dark about Spartan-IIIs being pulled from Alpha and Beta and given MJOLNIR? So he couldn't have been given S-312 because he didn't even know S-312 existed right? Or did he just think he had been previously assigned to a non-combat role like it said in the Mendez-Ambrose transmission? Oh and by the way one other question when it talks about "cat 2s" in the transcript does that mean Spartan-IIIs with Spartan-II genetic standards? --Ace of Spades


 * I agree. It does appear that Ackerson was unaware that Kurt was pulling a select few candidates out and shifting them to Mjolnir-wearing units.--Emblem 1.jpg  Rusty - 112  Admin  comm 23:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

This edit...
... needs to be revised on two counts. Firstly, the introduction as well as the opening quote needs to be reverted to its previous revision. The current quote would fit nicely in the "Death" section whereas the previous section fits nicely with his overall personality (or what's left of it to the player's imagination). The introduction should be the most condensed paragraph about the subject and its job should be to introduce the subject to readers. There is no need of an overview/summary of his biography/characterisation in the introduction.

Secondly, this image needs to be altered: Noble Six should be in his default configuration. We've already discussed about this years ago. On the subject of "what we've agreed years ago", it should be noted that we've also agreed that his birth date provided in GameInformer is likely to be an error made by the editor.

Oh, congrats Tuckers on becoming an administrator. All those red buttons!! — subtank   09:35, 15 July 2013 (EDT)


 * I've been warned not to press any of those shiny big red buttons...


 * I could cut most of the opening summary. The recap may be unnecessary, though I was trying to incorporate something similar to what John-117 has on his article intro. I think the first few sentences comparing Six to John should be kept, though. Something to explain how this character is important.


 * The image I got from YouTube, because it was the highest quality one I could find, and the configuration didn't look THAT different to me. Guess it is. I lack a screen capture device, though, so unless someone with one of those is willing to take pics of Six in default armor during the cutscenes, I will have to hunt around on YouTube for some video with default. Also, did not know that about the birth date. I will cut that out. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 11:01, 15 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Well, maybe compress it again instead of deleting it if you feel it is necessary? John-117 is one exceptional, hyper-lethal article; cramming everything from the novels to games to miscellaneous media in that introduction. Not even Six can beat 117.
 * As for video on Six arriving, might I suggest downloading them from HBO? You can get the links from Cutscene (check the end of the page).
 * Also, do you have the access launch code to Special:Nuke? —  subtank   11:11, 15 July 2013 (EDT)


 * HBO's Reach cutscenes have Six in brown armor, not black, unless they've been changed recently. I'll probably end up rewriting that summary and compressing it, while expanding down below. I intend to revamp this page a bit.


 * Nuking? Not that I can tell. Can't seem to find it on the Special Pages list. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 11:18, 15 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Seems like the canon colour for Six's armour would be black after looking through B.net. So, guess HBO is out.— subtank   13:57, 19 July 2013 (EDT)


 * I think the best way to make Noble Six in Reach is the following:

Helmet = Mark V[B] Default (early promo material had the extra plate on top, but later was just default including one of the last action figures made)

Left Shoulder = Default

Right Shoulder = Default

Chest = Default

Wrist = Default (although he looks at his wrist after the Long Night of Solace crashes on the mountain, so something should be there)

Utility = Default (as in none)

Visor = Default (It's not gold because Carter's is gold and there's a distinct difference in shade)

Knee Guards = FJ/Para (in all iterations but last colored figure..the clear figure still had FJ/Para)

Primary Color = Steel

Secondary Color = Silver

- ScaleMaster117 (talk) 18:26, 19 July 2013 (EDT)


 * That all makes sense. But the real issue is finding either a cutscene video on the web that uses that default scheme, or finding someone with the ability to take pictures from their TV. Any volunteers? Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 19:34, 19 July 2013 (EDT)


 * I already have about 22 shots. Some have the different knees and gold visor. Most are good poses. How many should I add? - ScaleMaster117 (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2013 (EDT)

Let's see... how about (Noble Actual) Six being assessed by Noble Team, & leaving the building with Carter, (Winter Contingency) a Campaign shot of Six fighting with Noble Team, (ONI: Sword Base) Six with Jorge during the "I aim to please line" or "Been all hers half me life", (Nightfall) Six with Jun being handed ammo, (Tip of the Spear) Kat and Six in the Warthog while their trooper fires, (Long Night of Solace) a lone shot of Six in the Sabre cockpit when the ship reaches orbit or when Holland is talking to them, & them falling out of the Corvette, (Exodus) Six sneaking into New Alexandria, (New Alexandria) Six looking over the city in the Pelican, & when Kat is killed, (The Package) Six with the ODSTs, & with Noble Team in Halsey's lab, (Pillar of Autumn) Theater shot of Six firing the Onager, (Lone Wolf) Six fighting off the Elites when wounded.

This is deliberately too many pictures, but I'm listing them all to keep my options open. Upload ones like these, perhaps put them in a gallery on your userpage, and I can look them over and see which ones should be included. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 20:51, 19 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Also, Halo 343 preferred that the pictures be alternatingly male and female. That might be too much to ask for with all of them, but feel free to have the pictures be either gender. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 22:51, 19 July 2013 (EDT)


 * I'll try and figure out what my userpage is (still new to wiki stuff) and I'll upload some of the better ones. I think I already have some from your list. I would like to ask what should be represented in the Noble Six's article. Since 343i (and Bungie before them) only considers Noble Six to be male from a canonical standpoint within the fiction and that female Six is only a gameplay option for players, is it appropriate to have female Six pics in the character article of only on a Halo Reach Video Game type of page that includes info like Theater and Forge? - ScaleMaster117 (talk) 22:59, 19 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Figured it out faster than I thought. Pics up for your review/inclusion on my UserWiki:ScaleMaster117. - ScaleMaster117 (talk) 23:34, 19 July 2013 (EDT)

Thanks! I review them all. But I don't understand your question. What do you mean by "a Halo Reach Video Game type of page"? Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 14:27, 20 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Sorry, that was a bit messed up...it was late. :P What I meant was, should any reference to a female Noble Six even be in the Noble Six fictional character article (since Six is fictionally male according to 343i)? I would think the reference to a gameplay option to play Six as a female would be relegated to a Halopedia article about the Halo: Reach video game itself where it would mention other game options like Forge or Theater Mode. I'm uncertain why a female Six would be represented in the fictional article. -ScaleMaster117 (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2013 (EDT)

Do we have any source that states Six is canonically male? Not merely referring to Six as "he" or "him", since that can be done with gender-neutral characters, but actually listing their gender as male? The assumption here had been that Six has no canon gender, and therefore could be represented either way in their biography. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 14:52, 20 July 2013 (EDT)


 * All I can say is I learned this during discussions with 343i in the production of the Halo: The Essential Visual Guide and that knowledge was used in my review passes to ensure that the pronoun "she" didn't end up in any of the text referring to Noble Six. "He" is used a couple of times in that entry you'll note. If 343i uses Noble Six in any future endeavors fictionally, B312 will not be female. - ScaleMaster117 (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2013 (EDT)

Ah. In that case, I'd much rather prefer continuing to show both genders in the images, but I shall add a note pointing out that Six was specified as male in the writing of the Visual Guide. To balance out both options. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 15:42, 20 July 2013 (EDT)


 * You also should revert the height and weight, as Bungie stated there is no canon form of Noble Six. --DC Ambrose (talk) 19:55, 25 September 2013 (EDT)

I say
Remove height and weight all together. It doesn't make sense for two reasons:
 * 1) Noble Six can be either gender, while this mass assessment makes sense for He-Six it does not fit for She-Six because,
 * 2) She-Six is exactly the same size as Kat, who is 6'08 and weighs 220. Oh, and . ..
 * 3) Bungie said there is no canon form of Noble Six.

Yes, I know I said 2, but the more the merrier.


 * I don't recall anyone from Bungie ever saying that. Even if they did, their intentions don't matter if 343 Industries wants to take a different approach. If you want to hear straight from the man who provided figures for the EVG, talk to Stephen Loftus. He'll tell you that both Bungie and 343i consider Noble Six to be canonically male, as mentioned in the above section; the ability to play as a female Spartan is a gameplay mechanic. -- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 20:34, 25 September 2013 (EDT)


 * No. There is no 'canon' Noble Six. Period. --DC Ambrose (talk) 20:52, 25 September 2013 (EDT)


 * Kindly provide a source to back up your statement. Until then, cease edit warring. Auguststorm1945 (talk) 21:03, 25 September 2013 (EDT)


 * DC, there is a difference between gameplay mechanics and non-canon. In Halo 3, when and where the Arbiter appears depends on whether you're playing solo or cooperative campaign, but neither would be canonically incorrect. Conversely, in Halo: Combat Evolved, there are clearly two Spartans visible in cooperative play, and yet you wouldn't say that there were two Spartans present on Alpha Halo. But in Halo: Reach, the fact that Noble Six's role to the plot is actually the pivotal point of the campaign, then you can't say that he/she is non-canon. Because if you're going to confuse gameplay mechanics and non-canon, then you could very well say that no one actually delivered Cortana to Captain Keyes at the end of Halo: Reach, therefore the events of all games that came after (chronologically) did not happen. Which, of course, is ridiculous. 21:09, 25 September 2013 (EDT)


 * You've both misinterpreted my meaning in that there is no canon Noble Six. There's no canon identity of Noble Six. It is whatever the player presents him or her as. Noble Six is you in other words. --DC Ambrose (talk) 21:36, 25 September 2013 (EDT)

DC, you need to provide a source for your claim that "Bungie said there is no canon form of Noble Six." Until you can provide that, the Essential Visual Guide is our best source, and to be taken as correct. I have to ask though, what is your the alternative to having Six have an identity, either male or female, in-universe? That Spartan-B312 is intersex, and has both genders or no gender? That Noble-Six is a gender-neutral robot? Yes, in-game Six can be either gender, but campaign gameplay can be non-canon. You can take vacations and skip areas that canonically, the Master Chief had to fight through. Hell, the Master Chief can die... repeatedly. Just because something can happen in-game doesn't mean it's canon.--  Rusty - 112  Admin  comm 22:05, 25 September 2013 (EDT)


 * DC, Stephen Loftus himself has confirmed (on this very page) that Noble Six is canonically male.


 * "... 343i (and Bungie before them) only considers Noble Six to be male from a canonical standpoint within the fiction... female Six is only a gameplay option for players."


 * "... Six is fictionally male according to 343i."


 * "If 343i uses Noble Six in any future endeavors fictionally, B312 will not be female."


 * He is not only our closest link to (and a frequent collaborator with) 343 Industries, but he is also one of the most esteemed members of the entire Halo community. Again, if you want to hear straight from the source, ask him about it. The point stands that Six is male, 6' 9" tall, and weighs 239 pounds. Regardless, you have been warned time and again about making these nonconstructive edits. Making a well-reasoned argument on the talk page is just fine, but shameless edit warring is not tolerated. -- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 23:36, 25 September 2013 (EDT)


 * [|On the contrary.] --151.141.113.192 00:26, 26 September 2013 (EDT)


 * His gender is classified in-universe. That doesn't prevent 343i from establishing him as male in an out-of-universe reference book. -- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 00:39, 26 September 2013 (EDT)


 * In my personal opinion, it is idiotic to write a wiki from an in-universe perspective while using out-of-universe references. =/ A little hypocritical if you ask me. I'd pick one or the other then stick with it. Would prevent confusion, like edit warring, and the debate going on right now. --DC Ambrose (talk) 01:42, 26 September 2013 (EDT)


 * You're making it sound like we shouldn't use reference books like the Visual Guide. Not getting the logic from that. Sith-venator Wavingstrider Fett helmet.jpg ( Commlink ) 01:54, 26 September 2013 (EDT)


 * Your (or anyone's) personal opinion is not what should be reflected in the article. An article should present every bit of information that has been released by official parties of the franchise, be it contradictory or not. It is our task to inspect, criticise and construe these information critically by noting them using section(s), reference notes, etc. Our responsibilities as editors are simply just that, editors. We can only present what is canon and what is not through the availability of official sources, and not through fan theories, headcanon, or personal opinion. — subtank   06:56, 26 September 2013 (EDT)


 * DC Ambrose, I answered your query to me in your message board, but for the benefit of folks here, I'll reiterate some of what I said. The Bungie link above is one of the oldest pieces of information on Noble Team. It has been expanded upon since even the game shipped (and mostly by 343i now). When reviewing the Visual Guide, 343i's stance was that Six was fictionally male. The height and weight in the Guide was deliberate, as was the masculine pronoun use in his entry. I'm not sure his gender is "classified in-universe" though. Since he's considered male in the fiction, any interaction he'd had with troopers, civilians, and Noble Team would not throw his gender into doubt because of his build, voice, etc. What I think would be fine to mention in an article (perhaps one on Halo: Reach, the game, is to mention that a gameplay choice was for players to be able to choose the gender for Six when they played the game. That should be distinct from how he's viewed fictionally. -ScaleMaster117 (talk) 07:44, 26 September 2013 (EDT)


 * Done. The in-universe parts of the article have been changed refer to Six as male, while all references to the female incarnation have been moved to the production notes and trivia section. As far as his gender being "classified in-universe", I was referring to the NOBLE Team performance reports listing the Spartan's gender as "redacted". However, like you said those reports are really old; retconning such a minor piece of them is hardly out of the question. -- Our vengeance is at hand. Gravemind.svg ( Talk to me. ) 09:36, 26 September 2013 (EDT)

"In my personal opinion, it is idiotic to write a wiki from an in-universe perspective while using out-of-universe references. =/ A little hypocritical if you ask me. I'd pick one or the other then stick with it. Would prevent confusion, like edit warring, and the debate going on right now."

That's why the in-universe and real-world parts of the article are listed separately. I suggest you take a look at the current revision. -- Our vengeance is at hand.  ( Talk to me. ) 10:39, 26 September 2013 (EDT)